The Old (2018)(neocha.com)
neocha.com
The Old (2018)
https://neocha.com/magazine/the-old/
87 comments
On the other hand, these photos show us a country where old people can live a full life regardless of their age. They are working, they have something to do and the society doesn't just shove them aside as some goods past their expiration date.
It's still an economy of/by/for old people who are circumstantially required to work. So, I cannot feel the same emotion that your comment portrays.
Both aspects can be true, the elder can have a sense of duty towards their craft, while complaining about some things, while overall benefiting from having a duty and purpose in life. If you visit Japan you'll see many elders working in hospitality businesses, most being happy and kind at their work.
Coming from Canada a better aspect here is that rent & food are much much cheaper, so they are less likely to starve or freeze to death in case of work disability.
Coming from Canada a better aspect here is that rent & food are much much cheaper, so they are less likely to starve or freeze to death in case of work disability.
Having to work at 80 is not a good thing
Depends on where you live.
In Japan, your vocation is a really big deal.
People have been known to commit suicide, when they have been let go.
It's really easy to be dismissive, and project our own society's norms onto others, with a "That's so silly! Why don't they just..." modifier, but that's just so silly.
I've been to Japan a lot (Tokyo, mostly). I used to work for a Japanese corporation, and traveled there regularly. I had/have many Japanese friends.
Personally, I could not live in that society. There's a lot of stuff that would be far too grating for me, but there's also some really awesome stuff.
The same can be said for any society.
In Japan, your vocation is a really big deal.
People have been known to commit suicide, when they have been let go.
It's really easy to be dismissive, and project our own society's norms onto others, with a "That's so silly! Why don't they just..." modifier, but that's just so silly.
I've been to Japan a lot (Tokyo, mostly). I used to work for a Japanese corporation, and traveled there regularly. I had/have many Japanese friends.
Personally, I could not live in that society. There's a lot of stuff that would be far too grating for me, but there's also some really awesome stuff.
The same can be said for any society.
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Actually, the japanese do offer this jobs to their elderly, out of compassion and duty, not exploitation.
Being without work, and without family, means being nothing, means abandoning yourself and dying.
I remember reading how many offices and what not keep -easy- jobs for the elderly if they don't want to retire.
Here in the west they will put you in an old-person house hoping you die sooner so they can inherit the house or whatever.
WTF
Being without work, and without family, means being nothing, means abandoning yourself and dying.
I remember reading how many offices and what not keep -easy- jobs for the elderly if they don't want to retire.
Here in the west they will put you in an old-person house hoping you die sooner so they can inherit the house or whatever.
WTF
Moreover science seems to agree that keeping on moving, no matter at what age, is related to lower stress levels and higher lifespan. In other words: not wanting to retire might actually keep you alive longer and with a higher quality life compared to for instance a sedentary lifestyle. I mean I understand where these 'oh poor people still having to work makes me sad' comments are coming from, but also for me personally I'd rather be doing something (something, not anything, that is) I somehwat like at that age than having to spend days mostly sitting down.
Yes, it's about money too, obviously. But still, not quite the same.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/10/17/business/senior...
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/10/17/business/senior...
> Being without work, and without family, means being nothing, means abandoning yourself and dying.
No it doesn't. Or at least it doesn't if you refuse to accept that attitude. If you have enough income to live and a little left over you can take charge of your life.
I was afraid that I would be at a loose end with nothing to do when I retired at 62. But now like many of my friends I just wonder how I ever had time to hold down a job. Of course I am slightly privileged because I had a reasonably well paying job and have accumulated enough money to be comfortable.
It's not lack of work that makes life difficult, it is lack of money.
No it doesn't. Or at least it doesn't if you refuse to accept that attitude. If you have enough income to live and a little left over you can take charge of your life.
I was afraid that I would be at a loose end with nothing to do when I retired at 62. But now like many of my friends I just wonder how I ever had time to hold down a job. Of course I am slightly privileged because I had a reasonably well paying job and have accumulated enough money to be comfortable.
It's not lack of work that makes life difficult, it is lack of money.
Exactly. These people keep working at 80 because their pensions are shit, not because they enjoy it. Well, some of them do enjoy it because they don't have any hobby and don't know how to enjoy their retirements, they just know how to work, which is equally depressing.
I read somewhere old people in Japan commit crimes in order to land in prison because life there is better.
But I stand corrected if this is an urban myth.
But I stand corrected if this is an urban myth.
I live in Japan and heard the same story from Japanese people, so sadly it seems not to be a myth. It is not super common either, but it is pretty sad that it happens at all.
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Keeps you alive
why is it not a good thing?
Having to retire isn't particularly nice, either
society doesn't just shove them aside as some goods past their expiration date
You mean like how I.T. management treats programmers over 50?
You mean like how I.T. management treats programmers over 50?
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They say "thank you consultancy for sending us an experienced consultant"?
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It's only cute while there's enough young people around to soak the necessary nasty/heavy/dangerous/grueling jobs, leaving comparatively lighter stuff for elderly people to do. Once the demographic collapse forces elders to pick these other activities as well, people will stop romanticizing it.
What would keep you from being like them at their age?
Probably the car-dependent infrastructure of North America. You can’t get anywhere or do anything unless you can drive a vehicle.
My grandmother depends on her independent living facility’s bus shuttle to get anywhere. There is no public bus and no destinations reachable by walking or transit. Zero.
In these photos I see a country where infrastructure is so good that the elderly manage to run full blown businesses, and where elderly live healthy longer since they aren’t living their lives sitting on couches on wheels in the McDonald’s drive thru.
My grandmother depends on her independent living facility’s bus shuttle to get anywhere. There is no public bus and no destinations reachable by walking or transit. Zero.
In these photos I see a country where infrastructure is so good that the elderly manage to run full blown businesses, and where elderly live healthy longer since they aren’t living their lives sitting on couches on wheels in the McDonald’s drive thru.
Here in rural New England, it’s snow, ice and slush for months of the year. Bicycles and even motorcycles are unworkable for most, especially the elderly.
The investment necessary to install and operate public transportation that operates on fixed routes and schedules is completely infeasible. There isn’t even a single taxi or Uber in town - they didn’t pay.
A century ago, this area was full of small farms, which were self-sufficient and people would make it an entire winter without leaving their property. Those days are gone. The same would have been true for rural Japan, though the latter had a higher density of small towns and small crafts, e.g. tofu makers within walking distance.
Mass transit works great in Tokyo, where these pictures were taken, and it works worldwide at similar population densities, better than cars.
Rural US has chosen the privately owned car as its transportation system. It works well. Perhaps it can be augmented with roboUbers, but remember the issues with electric scooters!
The investment necessary to install and operate public transportation that operates on fixed routes and schedules is completely infeasible. There isn’t even a single taxi or Uber in town - they didn’t pay.
A century ago, this area was full of small farms, which were self-sufficient and people would make it an entire winter without leaving their property. Those days are gone. The same would have been true for rural Japan, though the latter had a higher density of small towns and small crafts, e.g. tofu makers within walking distance.
Mass transit works great in Tokyo, where these pictures were taken, and it works worldwide at similar population densities, better than cars.
Rural US has chosen the privately owned car as its transportation system. It works well. Perhaps it can be augmented with roboUbers, but remember the issues with electric scooters!
Other countries just don’t understand the reality of how much bigger the US is than them. Also it’s always a stab against America and not Canada or Australia, both of which share the same problems of size.
There's not much else you can do in rural areas, but the problem in the US is that many major cities are the same way.
It's time to stop making excuses. I'm coming at you with receipts.
This is interesting that you say that you can't bike in the winter, Finnish people have no trouble biking in the winter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
It also seems odd that it's no problem to plow and salt a gigantic interstate highway system in the USA but somehow it's impossible to clear some small bike lanes.
Before you say "only fit people can cycle," Netherlands has microcars that the elderly and disabled can use on bike lanes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0
It's weird that you say that installing and operating mass transportation is "completely infeasible" when that's the status quo in Japan.
Rail in Japan: (Wikipedia)
Ridership: 7.589 billion (2014)
Passenger km: 260 billion (2014)
System length
Total: 30,625 km
Electrified: 21,600 km
Rail in USA: (Wikipedia)
Ridership: 549,631,632
29 million (Amtrak only) (2014)
Passenger km: 10.3 billion (2014)
How does a country with less than half the population of the USA take 15x the trips and ride 26x the kilometers when their population density is only 10x higher. And, really, if you just talk about major population centers on the coasts and Midwest, the USA doesn't look crazy different than Japan. The Northeast Megalopolis has 3x higher population density than Japan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_megalopolis
For example, this very rural line with a single rail car has a more frequent timetable than Amtrak's Chicago to Milwaukee train, which connects two large metro areas that are within feasible commuting distance:
Video of the line demonstrating how rural it is. Each train only has one car!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIRlmM8wI1g
Timetable (PDF link)
https://www.akita-nairiku.com/timetable/pdf/20220312_02timet...
It's also weird that you say that this can only work in places with high population density, when we know that's not the case. The population of Denmark is similar to Indiana, with Indiana beating Denmark in population density, and the population of Sweden is similar to Ohio, with Ohio having 10x Sweden's population density.
Explain then why there's no passenger train from Chicagoland (same size as all of Sweden) to Columbus, Ohio (same size as Copenhagen), a distance of 350 miles (which includes passing through two other sizable cities), but I can get on a high speed train from Copenhagen to Stockholm and cross into a different country covering a driving distance of about 400 miles.
We also know density has nothing to do with it because the USA was built almost entirely on rail. There are hundreds if not thousands of railroad town in the USA.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Railroad-Network-in-...
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/apr/03/mapped-histor...
> Rural US has chosen the privately owned car as its transportation system. It works well.
Does it work well? Car crashes are the #2 accidental killer behind guns (used to be #1). The USA's traffic death rate per 100,000 people is 6x higher than Sweden and 3x higher than Japan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...
This is interesting that you say that you can't bike in the winter, Finnish people have no trouble biking in the winter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
It also seems odd that it's no problem to plow and salt a gigantic interstate highway system in the USA but somehow it's impossible to clear some small bike lanes.
Before you say "only fit people can cycle," Netherlands has microcars that the elderly and disabled can use on bike lanes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0
It's weird that you say that installing and operating mass transportation is "completely infeasible" when that's the status quo in Japan.
Rail in Japan: (Wikipedia)
Ridership: 7.589 billion (2014)
Passenger km: 260 billion (2014)
System length
Total: 30,625 km
Electrified: 21,600 km
Rail in USA: (Wikipedia)
Ridership: 549,631,632
29 million (Amtrak only) (2014)
Passenger km: 10.3 billion (2014)
How does a country with less than half the population of the USA take 15x the trips and ride 26x the kilometers when their population density is only 10x higher. And, really, if you just talk about major population centers on the coasts and Midwest, the USA doesn't look crazy different than Japan. The Northeast Megalopolis has 3x higher population density than Japan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_megalopolis
For example, this very rural line with a single rail car has a more frequent timetable than Amtrak's Chicago to Milwaukee train, which connects two large metro areas that are within feasible commuting distance:
Video of the line demonstrating how rural it is. Each train only has one car!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIRlmM8wI1g
Timetable (PDF link)
https://www.akita-nairiku.com/timetable/pdf/20220312_02timet...
It's also weird that you say that this can only work in places with high population density, when we know that's not the case. The population of Denmark is similar to Indiana, with Indiana beating Denmark in population density, and the population of Sweden is similar to Ohio, with Ohio having 10x Sweden's population density.
Explain then why there's no passenger train from Chicagoland (same size as all of Sweden) to Columbus, Ohio (same size as Copenhagen), a distance of 350 miles (which includes passing through two other sizable cities), but I can get on a high speed train from Copenhagen to Stockholm and cross into a different country covering a driving distance of about 400 miles.
We also know density has nothing to do with it because the USA was built almost entirely on rail. There are hundreds if not thousands of railroad town in the USA.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Railroad-Network-in-...
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/apr/03/mapped-histor...
> Rural US has chosen the privately owned car as its transportation system. It works well.
Does it work well? Car crashes are the #2 accidental killer behind guns (used to be #1). The USA's traffic death rate per 100,000 people is 6x higher than Sweden and 3x higher than Japan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...
Our rail system sucks, it is true. I'm quite sure that, if we expanded it, it would still suck. Cars work well for people in rural areas, and they are cost-effective in rural areas.
Your "fact" on accidental gun "killings" v. fatal car accidents is far from reality. In 2021, there were 2,007 accidental gun fatalities.[0] In 2021, per your doc, the total US transportation deaths were 42,915, all presumably accidental.
[0] https://www.aftermath.com/content/accidental-shooting-deaths...
Your "fact" on accidental gun "killings" v. fatal car accidents is far from reality. In 2021, there were 2,007 accidental gun fatalities.[0] In 2021, per your doc, the total US transportation deaths were 42,915, all presumably accidental.
[0] https://www.aftermath.com/content/accidental-shooting-deaths...
But most of us don't live in rural areas, that's why they're rural. 80% of Americans live in urban areas (https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/g...)
Why do you think an expanded train system would suck? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Why do you think an expanded train system would suck? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The US passenger rail system is badly mismanaged and offers lousy service. If the network were to be expanded, I'd expect more of the same lousy service.
I like commuter rail and subways in Boston. I wish the parking was better at the railheads, that would encourage use. If I lived in Boston, I wouldn't need to own a car, I'd just rent one as needed for trips outside the area.
Once I drive as far as Boston suburbs, I might as well keep going in. It's faster to cover the final distance by car, and the parking fees aren't too bad, once I subtract the rail and subway fares I'd otherwise need to pay.
Also, I can load all my packages and bags into the back of my car. The subway is really inconvenient for that.
I like commuter rail and subways in Boston. I wish the parking was better at the railheads, that would encourage use. If I lived in Boston, I wouldn't need to own a car, I'd just rent one as needed for trips outside the area.
Once I drive as far as Boston suburbs, I might as well keep going in. It's faster to cover the final distance by car, and the parking fees aren't too bad, once I subtract the rail and subway fares I'd otherwise need to pay.
Also, I can load all my packages and bags into the back of my car. The subway is really inconvenient for that.
That’ll be a lot of countries soon.
“By 2030, 1 in 6 people in the world will be aged 60 years or over. At this time the share of the population aged 60 years and over will increase from 1 billion in 2020 to 1.4 billion. By 2050, the world’s population of people aged 60 years and older will double (2.1 billion). The number of persons aged 80 years or older is expected to triple between 2020 and 2050 to reach 426 million”
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/ageing-and-...
“By 2030, 1 in 6 people in the world will be aged 60 years or over. At this time the share of the population aged 60 years and over will increase from 1 billion in 2020 to 1.4 billion. By 2050, the world’s population of people aged 60 years and older will double (2.1 billion). The number of persons aged 80 years or older is expected to triple between 2020 and 2050 to reach 426 million”
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/ageing-and-...
> “By 2030, 1 in 6 people in the world will be aged 60 years or over. At this time the share of the population aged 60 years and over will increase from 1 billion in 2020 to 1.4 billion. By 2050, the world’s population of people aged 60 years and older will double (2.1 billion). The number of persons aged 80 years or older is expected to triple between 2020 and 2050 to reach 426 million”
All of this has a statistics smell to it - why aren't they giving us the expected percentages instead of the expected absolute numbers.
IME, the only time authors give numbers that don't have any frame of references is when their argument is weak or nonexistent.
"Is the fooflam reliable?"
"Yes - we have had only a single return of all flooflams sold"[1]
[1] Neglects to mention they only sold five.
All of this has a statistics smell to it - why aren't they giving us the expected percentages instead of the expected absolute numbers.
IME, the only time authors give numbers that don't have any frame of references is when their argument is weak or nonexistent.
"Is the fooflam reliable?"
"Yes - we have had only a single return of all flooflams sold"[1]
[1] Neglects to mention they only sold five.
I mean, you're asking them to predict the future. And not just a few years, but population growth for the next 27 years. Not trying to predict that doesn't make it a trick of statistics.
Commenter isn't asking them to predict the future, they willingly gave their prediction without being asked. Commenter to asking for them to share the half of their prediction they are hiding.
we don't really have a over population issue, unless some how we figured prolong the life span of all people in the next few decade. Countries like China will have population deflation problem in the coming decades.
Let's hope so! So much better than being the generation holding the bag when the reset happens.
italy in 2020:
> 55-64 years: 14% > 65 years and over: 22.08%
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy
> 55-64 years: 14% > 65 years and over: 22.08%
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy
I would recommend you to go and watch What Owning a Japanese Public Bath is Like[0]. While the video is supposed to be about running an onsen I think it is more about love, aging, family and importance of not being idle. It is very touching.
(fyi Life Where I'm From is one of the best channels on youtube with high quality content) [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcPGdM76O2U
(fyi Life Where I'm From is one of the best channels on youtube with high quality content) [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcPGdM76O2U
Watching them work at that age made me super sad.
It is sad. Many Western people idealize Japan, and you can see here many comments saying that they keep working because it is their passion, when in truth they need to work because their pensions are terrible. I'm pretty sure that the 70+ years old ladies at the konbinis around my home and workplace are not there because it is their passion.
Would you rather they just disappear and die?
When people's dogs become older and inconvenient it is common for people to rationalize putting them "down" under the notion that it's some great benevolent act, instead of a selfish one. "Oh he couldn't jump on the bed any more so it was time to put him down". It's gross, but you nod and smile and pretend like they're being rational.
Similarly, many people want older people to disappear, and this is often masked in some benevolent "it's because I care so much" nonsense. People who want the elderly to disappear into some home somewhere where they can be sedated until they die. They can't jump up on the bed anymore, you see, so it's for the best. e.g. "I just want you to enjoy your retirement...best time of life...disappear"
A lot of older people want purpose in their life. They want to work. Particularly in Japan where there is an incredible pride and life purpose behind contributing and plying ones skills. I went down a rabbit hole of YouTube videos feature hole in the wall restaurants in Japan, and it was amazing how often it was quite elderly owners who would show up early and run the show, and it was clear they loved having it in their life.
When people's dogs become older and inconvenient it is common for people to rationalize putting them "down" under the notion that it's some great benevolent act, instead of a selfish one. "Oh he couldn't jump on the bed any more so it was time to put him down". It's gross, but you nod and smile and pretend like they're being rational.
Similarly, many people want older people to disappear, and this is often masked in some benevolent "it's because I care so much" nonsense. People who want the elderly to disappear into some home somewhere where they can be sedated until they die. They can't jump up on the bed anymore, you see, so it's for the best. e.g. "I just want you to enjoy your retirement...best time of life...disappear"
A lot of older people want purpose in their life. They want to work. Particularly in Japan where there is an incredible pride and life purpose behind contributing and plying ones skills. I went down a rabbit hole of YouTube videos feature hole in the wall restaurants in Japan, and it was amazing how often it was quite elderly owners who would show up early and run the show, and it was clear they loved having it in their life.
What an insulting non sequitur.
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
I don’t think it was meant that way, at all.
I read the posts in order, and the conversation seemed natural and civil.
I read the posts in order, and the conversation seemed natural and civil.
I have no idea how you can see it as civil. Joseph puts up a false dichotomy where not working as an elderly is to "disappear and die". Then some general notion of people wanting old people to disappeared is tilled at. Non of that has anything to do with Crimp's post, and is grossly missing the point of their comment.
I vouched because I agree.
My grandparent is 70. Cooking is what keeps him alive
My grandparent is 70. Cooking is what keeps him alive
Let's admit it. We have lost empathy for the old because we don't think they have enough "value" to add to society.
I am inspired by the story of Patricia Moore who, at 26, dressed up to live the life of an 80 yr old to understand their challenges: https://www.romankrznaric.com/outrospection/2009/11/01/117.
We need more Patricia's in this world.
I am inspired by the story of Patricia Moore who, at 26, dressed up to live the life of an 80 yr old to understand their challenges: https://www.romankrznaric.com/outrospection/2009/11/01/117.
We need more Patricia's in this world.
The photos you are referring to depict a society where the elderly are valued and respected for their contributions, rather than being marginalized or dismissed. It's important to recognize that aging is a natural part of life, and people should not be defined by their age or perceived limitations. In some cultures, the elderly are seen as wise and experienced, and their knowledge and skills are highly valued.
If you liked the photos here, be sure to check out his Instagram, lots of great shots with direct commentary.
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Having a purpose keeps one alive. One of those purposes can be working productively.
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aaand it's slashdotted