Creatures That Don’t Conform(emergencemagazine.org)
emergencemagazine.org
Creatures That Don’t Conform
https://emergencemagazine.org/essay/creatures-that-dont-conform/
52 comments
I don't have time to read the article in full right now but this gorgeous description will have me returning to it and Barry Webb's images later today:
> Iridescent rainbow orbs bursting into tangerine spun sugar. Pearly spheres of goo. Sorbet corn dogs leaning into one another with matching bouffants. Bright yellow blackberries. A bunch of Mr. Blobby’s babies. Golden goblets overflowing with effervescent honeycomb. Opalescent spherules in crinkled sweet wrappers. Amaretti flecked with flakes of soap. Honestly, go and check it out if you don’t believe me.
> Iridescent rainbow orbs bursting into tangerine spun sugar. Pearly spheres of goo. Sorbet corn dogs leaning into one another with matching bouffants. Bright yellow blackberries. A bunch of Mr. Blobby’s babies. Golden goblets overflowing with effervescent honeycomb. Opalescent spherules in crinkled sweet wrappers. Amaretti flecked with flakes of soap. Honestly, go and check it out if you don’t believe me.
Those photographs are of stunningly good quality. Wow!
Wow. Otherworldly.
[deleted]
Barry Webb!
who's the slime with all the moves, oh yeah
He's not as good a singer though.
What a tiresome article. It's laced with the stupidest kind of anthropomorphism - always interpreting a creature in nature as though it is a human mind. For example, the first sentence including "fluid, nonbinary way of being". For those in the know, these are references to genderfluidity, non binary and queer ways of being. None of this - as it applies to humans - is relevant to the study of slime molds! There may be a weak (very weak!) parallel, but such a matter doesn't affect the slime mold, nor inform how a human being should live in the world.
And then later it refers to some lesbain poet who talked about slime molds in a poem. And meaningless speculation about how slime molds are "unstudied" due to a revulsion of slime, which is pointed out to be feminine. Not an argument I'm going to buy, for if there extremely well studied from early times, then this article would perhaps be talking about how slime molds are seminal in nature. So, meaningless in the sense it's unfalsifiable. Maybe search for actual reasons why they're unstudied and improperly categorised, like they're difficult to study? Or that good scientists try to be as parsimonious with category as possible, so that those categories retain explantory power? But that has to be ignored, so the Queer theoretic "violence of categorization" can be undermined with nature.
It's tiresome. If you've found an interesting creature in nature, then write what makes that creature interesting. It doesn't (ever) need to include what a lesbian writer thought it taught humans how to live. Because it doesn't, really.
And then later it refers to some lesbain poet who talked about slime molds in a poem. And meaningless speculation about how slime molds are "unstudied" due to a revulsion of slime, which is pointed out to be feminine. Not an argument I'm going to buy, for if there extremely well studied from early times, then this article would perhaps be talking about how slime molds are seminal in nature. So, meaningless in the sense it's unfalsifiable. Maybe search for actual reasons why they're unstudied and improperly categorised, like they're difficult to study? Or that good scientists try to be as parsimonious with category as possible, so that those categories retain explantory power? But that has to be ignored, so the Queer theoretic "violence of categorization" can be undermined with nature.
It's tiresome. If you've found an interesting creature in nature, then write what makes that creature interesting. It doesn't (ever) need to include what a lesbian writer thought it taught humans how to live. Because it doesn't, really.
I enjoyed it, and read it through. I didn't find the nonbinary/queer stuff relevant, but she did. It was part of her emotional reaction, and that was the apparent purpose of the article: to capture and evoke an emotional response. Clearly it missed you but it did so successfully for me. It was beautifully written and it made me feel a particular way, in sympathy with someone else who felt that way. I didn't have to share the author's world view for that to work, and I'm glad it was posted.
Your comment, on the other hand, feels mean-spirited and is far more dominated by the topic of gender and sexuality, in a wholly negative way, than the article was.
Your comment, on the other hand, feels mean-spirited and is far more dominated by the topic of gender and sexuality, in a wholly negative way, than the article was.
> If you've found an interesting creature in nature, then write what makes that creature interesting.
this is literally what they did.
I think you just have a bias against queer people. you say in another comment “actual cool people laugh at those blue-haired weirdos” and in this one that an article “doesn't (ever) need to include what a lesbian writer thought.”
these aren’t legitimate criticisms, and your claim that an unfalsifiable argument is meaningless is not a valid criticism either. you can’t falsify the theory of evolution, but the the theory still has meaning. in many cases, you can’t ethically set up control groups for medical interventions which save lives, but that doesn’t mean you can’t reason about those interventions. an unfalsifiable argument can certainly still have meaning and utility, and claiming otherwise is ridiculous.
saying “actual cool people laugh at those blue-haired weirdos” is also ridiculous. first because it’s obviously biased. second because cool is subjective, and you were just complaining about OP being subjective.
this is literally what they did.
I think you just have a bias against queer people. you say in another comment “actual cool people laugh at those blue-haired weirdos” and in this one that an article “doesn't (ever) need to include what a lesbian writer thought.”
these aren’t legitimate criticisms, and your claim that an unfalsifiable argument is meaningless is not a valid criticism either. you can’t falsify the theory of evolution, but the the theory still has meaning. in many cases, you can’t ethically set up control groups for medical interventions which save lives, but that doesn’t mean you can’t reason about those interventions. an unfalsifiable argument can certainly still have meaning and utility, and claiming otherwise is ridiculous.
saying “actual cool people laugh at those blue-haired weirdos” is also ridiculous. first because it’s obviously biased. second because cool is subjective, and you were just complaining about OP being subjective.
> you can’t falsify the theory of evolution, but the the theory still has meaning.
The theory of evolution is falsifiable.
As you say, medical interventions often cannot ethically be falsified. However, medical trials are typically set up in a way designed to test if they work with an eye towards also detecting if they do not. Which is to say trials enable falsifying them. This happens quite often when pharmaceuticals fail trials.
The theory of evolution is falsifiable.
As you say, medical interventions often cannot ethically be falsified. However, medical trials are typically set up in a way designed to test if they work with an eye towards also detecting if they do not. Which is to say trials enable falsifying them. This happens quite often when pharmaceuticals fail trials.
What the fuck is the problem with referencing a lesbian poet?
Why the hell is this kind of comment again at the top of the thread?
Why the hell is this kind of comment again at the top of the thread?
I blame Substack.
Eh.
1) Slime molds are cool
2) queerness is cool
3) waxing poetic is cool
=>
4) this article is cool.
Queerness ain't cool fam. I mean, I would explain why actual cool people laugh at those blue haired weirdos, but everyone's life has taught them that.
No, actually, I'll say that queerness cannot be cool on its own terms. Queerness is that which rejects normality[0]. Coolness - to analyze it so deeply I reveal myself as deeply uncool - is to be at the peak of social aspiration. It's normativity so easily achieved it makes people feel envious and desirous. It is, in that sense, the antithesis of queer.
[0] queer-as-identity allows individuals to transcend or outright reject normative labels https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-queer/
No, actually, I'll say that queerness cannot be cool on its own terms. Queerness is that which rejects normality[0]. Coolness - to analyze it so deeply I reveal myself as deeply uncool - is to be at the peak of social aspiration. It's normativity so easily achieved it makes people feel envious and desirous. It is, in that sense, the antithesis of queer.
[0] queer-as-identity allows individuals to transcend or outright reject normative labels https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-queer/
What bubble must you live in to believe youths aren't actively encouraged to be queer and treat it as a social aspiration? To be gay, nonbinary, even trans, is essentially worshiped, especially online. Have you seen the content on the apps these kids use?
"Actual cool people." Give me a break.
"Actual cool people." Give me a break.
In some circles queerness is cool and in others it is reviled and, indeed, still dangerous. That isn't hard to understand. I know a lot of queer people who were beaten by their parents, kicked out on the street, harassed by landlords, whatever, still.
It is frankly bizarre to say gay, nonbinary or trans people are "worshiped." It seems like around 40% of people actively oppose the normalization of queerness. Anti-queer laws are being passed all over the place in the country. This doesn't seem like a culture that worships queerness to me.
It is frankly bizarre to say gay, nonbinary or trans people are "worshiped." It seems like around 40% of people actively oppose the normalization of queerness. Anti-queer laws are being passed all over the place in the country. This doesn't seem like a culture that worships queerness to me.
I'm quite interested to hear about the connection between LGBT ideology and Gnosticism / transhumanism. Care to elaborate lo_zamoyski?
That’s just James Lindsay’s pseudointellectual tripe, and has further roots in some early twentieth century political theorists. You can’t trust Lindsay because he’s a political operative first and a scholar second.
I don’t know of any scholars of gnosticism who think gnosticism is connected to LGBT in a serious way.
The notion that LGBT ideology[0] is mainstreamed, backed, and promoted by the American regime/media-corporate-government-education complex and readily absorbed by a growing portion of certain segments of the populace is not controversial. Indeed, it is rather obvious. It is even explicitly stated by those entities. Even assuming that 40% of Americans are "actively opposed" (though I'm not sure how you define "active" as the political activity of the vast majority of citizens is confined, at best, to voting and tweeting statements of defiance), that leaves 60% who are ambivalent or onboard; the ambivalent will predictably go with the flow of what's popular. So, yes, there does exist opposition to the normalization of the LGBT stance, but it has generally been quite weak and disorganized given the ease with which things like "gay marriage" have become normalized. The victim mentality that often characterizes grievance and resentment movements can produce a distorted picture of what's actually the case.
It remains to be seen whether those opposed can mount a successful defense.
[0] Before someone comments with something like "LGBT isn't an ideology; they're PEOPLE!", I will restate that, yes, LGBT is an ideology (or family of ideologies). It is an anthropological position taken on what it means to be human, what human sexuality is about and therefore on sexual morality, the social relations that can licitly follow, etc. People can accept or reject the position. People can experience same-sex attractions or whatever. What LGBT offers is a particular interpretation of those experiences, and a political program that appeals to and makes use them, that, to put it mildly, are controversial. They are contested and challenged and quite rigorously by, e.g., natural law ethicists (who draw on a long intellectual and ethical tradition that has already dealt with such questions throughout history). LGBT ideology cannot be understood outside of the liberal tradition; with liberalism comes the notion that freedom is the unfettered indulgence of any desire ("do what thou wilt"), save for those that contradict the ideology, of course. But the classical tradition has responded to such and similar views throughout history; to act against reason and to be a slave to one's passions and to any disordered desires is not freedom. Freedom is the ability to do what one ought, to do what is objectively good, to act according to human nature, and it is the nature of human beings to be rational. By that rationality, they can discern what is objectively good. (There are also interesting connections between LGBT and transhumanism and gnosticism, ones which reveal how unwittingly appropriate the choice of the "pride" slogan is, but those I leave to the side for now.)
It remains to be seen whether those opposed can mount a successful defense.
[0] Before someone comments with something like "LGBT isn't an ideology; they're PEOPLE!", I will restate that, yes, LGBT is an ideology (or family of ideologies). It is an anthropological position taken on what it means to be human, what human sexuality is about and therefore on sexual morality, the social relations that can licitly follow, etc. People can accept or reject the position. People can experience same-sex attractions or whatever. What LGBT offers is a particular interpretation of those experiences, and a political program that appeals to and makes use them, that, to put it mildly, are controversial. They are contested and challenged and quite rigorously by, e.g., natural law ethicists (who draw on a long intellectual and ethical tradition that has already dealt with such questions throughout history). LGBT ideology cannot be understood outside of the liberal tradition; with liberalism comes the notion that freedom is the unfettered indulgence of any desire ("do what thou wilt"), save for those that contradict the ideology, of course. But the classical tradition has responded to such and similar views throughout history; to act against reason and to be a slave to one's passions and to any disordered desires is not freedom. Freedom is the ability to do what one ought, to do what is objectively good, to act according to human nature, and it is the nature of human beings to be rational. By that rationality, they can discern what is objectively good. (There are also interesting connections between LGBT and transhumanism and gnosticism, ones which reveal how unwittingly appropriate the choice of the "pride" slogan is, but those I leave to the side for now.)
I think its interesting that you conflate sex and gender liberation with liberalism. In fact, most of the queer people I know aren't liberals and pretty much revile liberalism in favor of things like socialism or, to a lesser extent, anarcho-capitalism (you might conflate that last one with liberalism).
But also: having the opinion that certain kinds of sexual relations and gender expressions' morality should be re-evaluated is not the same as believing "do what thou wilt." This seems obvious. Eg, those who wished to abolish slavery before the civil war did not wish to abolish society. It is possible to want to reform without wanting to utterly dispense with every moral fact. I don't know a single queer person who expresses or believes in this kind of moral anarchy. Indeed, the very ideal of queer liberation is to assert _moral status_ for a class of people that have previously not had it, not to eliminate the idea of moral status all together.
In fact, the only place I've ever seen moral chaos conflated with queer stuff is among conservatives, who do so because it makes queerness seem more scary than it actually is.
I would like to pose a question to you. If, as you state, 60% of the population is ambivalent to or supports queerness, how do you distinguish this state of affairs from a genuine social evolution compared to what you are implying, some kind of sinister plot imposed by "them." If "them" is 60% of the country or even just 40% of the country, and, as you suggest, opposition is actually smaller than 40%, then isn't the acceptance of queerness just a social change like any other?
But also: having the opinion that certain kinds of sexual relations and gender expressions' morality should be re-evaluated is not the same as believing "do what thou wilt." This seems obvious. Eg, those who wished to abolish slavery before the civil war did not wish to abolish society. It is possible to want to reform without wanting to utterly dispense with every moral fact. I don't know a single queer person who expresses or believes in this kind of moral anarchy. Indeed, the very ideal of queer liberation is to assert _moral status_ for a class of people that have previously not had it, not to eliminate the idea of moral status all together.
In fact, the only place I've ever seen moral chaos conflated with queer stuff is among conservatives, who do so because it makes queerness seem more scary than it actually is.
I would like to pose a question to you. If, as you state, 60% of the population is ambivalent to or supports queerness, how do you distinguish this state of affairs from a genuine social evolution compared to what you are implying, some kind of sinister plot imposed by "them." If "them" is 60% of the country or even just 40% of the country, and, as you suggest, opposition is actually smaller than 40%, then isn't the acceptance of queerness just a social change like any other?
> to a lesser extent, anarcho-capitalism
You must know very different queer people than I do, because queer communities in my experience tend extremely anti-capitalist. I see various flavors of anarchism, but anarcho-capitalism is not typically one of them.
You must know very different queer people than I do, because queer communities in my experience tend extremely anti-capitalist. I see various flavors of anarchism, but anarcho-capitalism is not typically one of them.
Being queer on the internet is a pain in the ass. You get a constant stream of hate engagement, no matter how small your platform is, and it scales up dramatically with platform size.
It's also weird of you to assume that anyone who is popular on the internet and also queer is popular because they are queer.
It's also weird of you to assume that anyone who is popular on the internet and also queer is popular because they are queer.
The peak of social aspiration is not the the same thing as being normal. In fact, you can't possibly be cool and be normal at the same time (otherwise the average person would be cool which isn't the case).
The uncool are all uncool in more or less the same way, but the cool are all cool differently. This is why you can have cool queer people, cool conservatives, cool liberals, cool socialists, cool communists. Coolness has an inevitable character of transgression against norms. It is an expression of the basic human need to rethink and revise normal behavior, presumably in search of other ways of living that might be more productive, pleasurable, just, aesthetically pleasing, whatever. This is a necessary part of a functioning society. Queer people, among others, are a part of it.
Analyzing coolness doesn't make you uncool. Getting bent out of shape because someone wrote a fun little essay about being queer and slime molds might.
The uncool are all uncool in more or less the same way, but the cool are all cool differently. This is why you can have cool queer people, cool conservatives, cool liberals, cool socialists, cool communists. Coolness has an inevitable character of transgression against norms. It is an expression of the basic human need to rethink and revise normal behavior, presumably in search of other ways of living that might be more productive, pleasurable, just, aesthetically pleasing, whatever. This is a necessary part of a functioning society. Queer people, among others, are a part of it.
Analyzing coolness doesn't make you uncool. Getting bent out of shape because someone wrote a fun little essay about being queer and slime molds might.
Ayep. Putting aside how totally, unnecessarily long this article was, trying to force slime molds to be relevant to the human condition is a ridiculous leap. Slime molds are incredibly cool. That doesn't mean they say anything about how people should relate to one another.
If I’d been his editor I would’ve rewritten the article to make this much stronger point.
1) There are some people who claim that male and female is one of those universal binaries, woven into the fabric of the universe, like light and dark. Actually pretty common for religious people to make the strong form of this claim for example.
2) Slime molds prove that isn’t necessarily true and doesn’t have to be true for living organisms. It’s the way evolution went but it wasn’t inevitable. (Article then delves into this but more scientifically)
1) There are some people who claim that male and female is one of those universal binaries, woven into the fabric of the universe, like light and dark. Actually pretty common for religious people to make the strong form of this claim for example.
2) Slime molds prove that isn’t necessarily true and doesn’t have to be true for living organisms. It’s the way evolution went but it wasn’t inevitable. (Article then delves into this but more scientifically)
I think the way the article is written makes it clear that its kind of preaching to the choir with respect to that message. Most of the reactionary types who want gender to be as simple as black and white aren't interested in scientific accounts anyway.
yeah, and if you want scientific validation that nonbinary humans really exist and really are nonbinary, there’s endless evidence from human biology which is far more relevant. a fanatic who refuses to acknowledge that science is not going to be swayed by a footnote about slime mold.
The more abstract concept of complementarity does appear to be woven in the fabric of the universe. At least if it's not, then math working so well is really surprising.
Sex is a case of biotic complementarity. I don't know much about slime molds, but I'm willing to bet there is all kind of complementarity in their organization.
Sex is a case of biotic complementarity. I don't know much about slime molds, but I'm willing to bet there is all kind of complementarity in their organization.
But complementarity doesn't have to be binary, which is the point under contention here. It is a scientific fact that gender and even sex in human populations, while having a strong binary tendency, is not in any way an absolute binary.
Binary complementarity is no more woven into the fabric of the universe than any other symmetry that you see in nature. Gravity is unipolar, electromagnetism is dipolar and the strong force is multipolar. In fact, if you look at electroweak theory (which breaks into E&M and the Weak Force) the bipolar character of the E&M field is less fundamental that it might appear.
Binary complementarity is no more woven into the fabric of the universe than any other symmetry that you see in nature. Gravity is unipolar, electromagnetism is dipolar and the strong force is multipolar. In fact, if you look at electroweak theory (which breaks into E&M and the Weak Force) the bipolar character of the E&M field is less fundamental that it might appear.
I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually find out that gravity is bipolar, but highly asymmetric. Something like that could maybe explain inflation.
Also complementarity isn't limited to 2-tuples. Or perhaps another way to see it is that the dyad suffices to model any more complex structure.
Also complementarity isn't limited to 2-tuples. Or perhaps another way to see it is that the dyad suffices to model any more complex structure.
> Plasmodium has no brain or nervous system, yet it can perform brain-like, intelligent functions.
well, no. i would say it can performs some simple algorithms.
> It knows itself
this is useful, performing those algorithms, and so will be selected for.
> It is able to learn and anticipate.
anticipate? don't know about that.
> It can learn, for example, to avoid something potentially harmful.
bacteria do this, via very rapid natural selection.
> It makes decisions
not in the sense we do.
well, no. i would say it can performs some simple algorithms.
> It knows itself
this is useful, performing those algorithms, and so will be selected for.
> It is able to learn and anticipate.
anticipate? don't know about that.
> It can learn, for example, to avoid something potentially harmful.
bacteria do this, via very rapid natural selection.
> It makes decisions
not in the sense we do.
> > It makes decisions
> not in the sense we do.
Isn't that the point? That in some ways it seems familiar, yet gets there in ways utterly foreign?
> not in the sense we do.
Isn't that the point? That in some ways it seems familiar, yet gets there in ways utterly foreign?
Exactly. For every "it's not human but does something similar to what humans do" there's some "oh but it's not human so what it does is not what humans do". The first one is interesting, the second one is self gratifying. Duhh if it was doing exactly what humans do it would be human which it logically can't be, tell me something I don't know:)
> anticipate? don't know about that.
[...] After three cold snaps the scientists stopped changing the temperature and humidity and watched to see whether the amoebas had learned the pattern. Sure enough, many of the cells throttled back right on the hour in anticipation of another bout of cold weather
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/71-slime-molds...
[...] After three cold snaps the scientists stopped changing the temperature and humidity and watched to see whether the amoebas had learned the pattern. Sure enough, many of the cells throttled back right on the hour in anticipation of another bout of cold weather
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/71-slime-molds...
not sure a learned cycle is the same as anticipation - but arguable
It would be more constructive, if you defined “anticipate”. Your dismissal really needs that to be taken seriously.
> It would be more constructive, if you defined “anticipate”.
a term from the OP, not one introduced by me. complain to them.
a term from the OP, not one introduced by me. complain to them.
Does an LLM anticipate? Is a slime mold more intelligent than an LLM?
I don't know, but if these slimes can adapt to new weather patterns, they're doing better than the average politician with regards to climate change.
I wish they'd have a scale next to pictures (in this article and elsewhere). We're out in the woods a lot, but it's hard to know what to look for as you're walking along.
I was curious about this too. They are bigger than I was thinking. Wikipedia has a picture of one with an ant for scale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slime_mold#/media/File:Stemoni...
_with_Ant.jpg){kind=link}
I like to pretend they are big like baobab trees. If they put a coin or a banana for scale it would ruin my fantasy!
I know nothing about macro photography; how are photos like this shot?
As in: is it a camera and a macro lens? Or is there some focus stacking and image composition involved? Or perhaps some other approach?
As in: is it a camera and a macro lens? Or is there some focus stacking and image composition involved? Or perhaps some other approach?
A macro lens is defined as one having 1x magnification, meaning 1cm in real life at the focus plane is mapped to 1cm on the image sensor. A full frame sensor is 3.6cm across horizontally, so a 3.6cm object fills a photo. These things are smaller, so they need a super macro lens with 2x or even 5x magnification. You can get that by buying such a lens, using macro bellows, clipping a separate magnifying lens in front of your normal macro lens, etc.
In any case, with such a high magnification, the plane of focus becomes very narrow, so they're very likely also doing focus stacking.
And you need a lot of light, so they're probably also using a flash.
In any case, with such a high magnification, the plane of focus becomes very narrow, so they're very likely also doing focus stacking.
And you need a lot of light, so they're probably also using a flash.
At least focus stacking these wouldn't be too hard as they aren't moving and not likely affected by the wind!
Definitely using a flash, you wouldn't get that even side/shadow lighting without either (diffused) flash or other added light source
Definitely using a flash, you wouldn't get that even side/shadow lighting without either (diffused) flash or other added light source
Macro lens + focus stacking according to https://www.barrywebbimages.co.uk/About
Which links to https://amateurphotographer.com/technique/macro_photography/...
And that further elaborates (in the Barry Webb section): "a Micro Four Thirds system with a 60mm macro lens [...] also often use between one and three extension tubes and, on occasions, a Raynox close-up lens" (plus a whole lot more info.)
Which links to https://amateurphotographer.com/technique/macro_photography/...
And that further elaborates (in the Barry Webb section): "a Micro Four Thirds system with a 60mm macro lens [...] also often use between one and three extension tubes and, on occasions, a Raynox close-up lens" (plus a whole lot more info.)
Hmm, seems like at least some of the look of the new The Last of Us tv movie has been inspired more by slime molds than actual fungi ?
Beautifully written. And myxomyceticolous is an indispensible new word for me to have learned.
https://www.barrywebbimages.co.uk/Images/Macro/Slime-Moulds-...
Edit: As noted below, the correct surname of the photographer is Webb, not White!