My dad built a cool thing but never boasted about it(robotsinplainenglish.com)
robotsinplainenglish.com
My dad built a cool thing but never boasted about it
https://robotsinplainenglish.com/e/2023-04-23-aaba-obit.html
81 comments
It's amazing what can get made, and how quickly, when the will is there, without any interference.
You probably still can, if you have the chops.
If you’re a skilled x builder, you’ll build x with or without a degree
Dear HN: I am the author. Thank you for your wishes.
I do see that a short obituary like this needs some context. To address some of the comments:
* Why choose to disclose that my father was a Maharashtrian Brahmin: being brought up in such a household in the early twentieth century implies a lot of things. For example, rigid rules about non-violence and purity; not being exposed to other people's food and customs; avoiding leaving your country and going far away from home. These are huge barriers for a twenty-something signing up for a commission in the military. It's very relevant to reveal who he was and what choices he made. I should note that historically, certain groups sign up in the Indian army, and many groups don't. [1]
Regarding objections to the word Brahmin being mentioned, I should clarify: the caste system was evil, particularly in the nineteenth century, and the government of India made it illegal as soon as it became independent. Despite that, discrimination continues in many places today. But to understand people, you need to know something about them. The word Brahmin by itself is not a precise enough descriptor. Indian castes are much more local than that. "Maharashtrian Brahmin", in particular "Chitpawan Konkanastha Brahmin", is much more precise, and these gruops have their own history. In Maharashtra during this period, these groups gave up their land under the land reform movement [2]. Brahmins no longer owned property or exercised much real power, especially not over other groups. They tended to be well educated but middle-class. It would be quite different from being an upper-caste landowner in (say) Bihar during this period.
* Why say that the Bangladesh war was justified: again, looking at it from my father's point of view, I think it would be an important consideration for him. Not that he would have a choice in the matter---once you sign up, you have to fight. But he would need to justify it to himself.
[1] The Indian Army: its contribution to the development of a nation, Stephen P. Cohen. https://www.amazon.com/Indian-Army-Contributions-Development...
[2] The "Bhoodan movement", (donate-your-land movement) by Vinobha Bhave in the 1950s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhoodan_movement
I do see that a short obituary like this needs some context. To address some of the comments:
* Why choose to disclose that my father was a Maharashtrian Brahmin: being brought up in such a household in the early twentieth century implies a lot of things. For example, rigid rules about non-violence and purity; not being exposed to other people's food and customs; avoiding leaving your country and going far away from home. These are huge barriers for a twenty-something signing up for a commission in the military. It's very relevant to reveal who he was and what choices he made. I should note that historically, certain groups sign up in the Indian army, and many groups don't. [1]
Regarding objections to the word Brahmin being mentioned, I should clarify: the caste system was evil, particularly in the nineteenth century, and the government of India made it illegal as soon as it became independent. Despite that, discrimination continues in many places today. But to understand people, you need to know something about them. The word Brahmin by itself is not a precise enough descriptor. Indian castes are much more local than that. "Maharashtrian Brahmin", in particular "Chitpawan Konkanastha Brahmin", is much more precise, and these gruops have their own history. In Maharashtra during this period, these groups gave up their land under the land reform movement [2]. Brahmins no longer owned property or exercised much real power, especially not over other groups. They tended to be well educated but middle-class. It would be quite different from being an upper-caste landowner in (say) Bihar during this period.
* Why say that the Bangladesh war was justified: again, looking at it from my father's point of view, I think it would be an important consideration for him. Not that he would have a choice in the matter---once you sign up, you have to fight. But he would need to justify it to himself.
[1] The Indian Army: its contribution to the development of a nation, Stephen P. Cohen. https://www.amazon.com/Indian-Army-Contributions-Development...
[2] The "Bhoodan movement", (donate-your-land movement) by Vinobha Bhave in the 1950s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhoodan_movement
> the caste system was evil, particularly in the nineteenth century, and the government of India made it illegal as soon as it became independent.
I've heard this before, but can't find evidence of it. Does the caste system not live on to this day? I thought caste is a protected class in terms of legally discrimination, and not a thing that's been banned.
Any present-day Indians able to clarify? My dad left India when he was three, so my knowledge is not current :-)
I've heard this before, but can't find evidence of it. Does the caste system not live on to this day? I thought caste is a protected class in terms of legally discrimination, and not a thing that's been banned.
Any present-day Indians able to clarify? My dad left India when he was three, so my knowledge is not current :-)
Caste based discrimination is illegal in India, but erstwhile lower castes are given academic and job reservations as a form of socio-economic equity. But as with a lot of government schemes this provision gets abused to some degree and many upper caste people claim that as "discrimination".
That being said, there is no enforcement of the "no-caste" policy so in many smaller towns/villages the caste system is still widely practiced and lower caste folks discriminated/beaten/killed/etc.
That being said, there is no enforcement of the "no-caste" policy so in many smaller towns/villages the caste system is still widely practiced and lower caste folks discriminated/beaten/killed/etc.
It’s been ten years since I was last in India but I saw evidence of discrimination when I was there… some seemed related to caste and other related to religion.
Not sure it was any worse than what I’ve seen in the UK though
Not sure it was any worse than what I’ve seen in the UK though
As an outsider, here's my take. The historic caste system included many restrictions on what people could do and who they could do it with. That's what was banned.
That said, there are a lot of ways to guess at caste if one is so inclined[1], and some people choose to use these guesses to discriminate. That's why it's a protected class --- it's not permissable to discriminate based on caste. There's also affirmative action for historically repressed castes, with all that comes with affitrmative action, for better or worse.
[1] caste related surnames and diet are the most easily understood by an outsider like me, but I think there may be caste related firstnames and other cultural indicators that I'm not aware of.
That said, there are a lot of ways to guess at caste if one is so inclined[1], and some people choose to use these guesses to discriminate. That's why it's a protected class --- it's not permissable to discriminate based on caste. There's also affirmative action for historically repressed castes, with all that comes with affitrmative action, for better or worse.
[1] caste related surnames and diet are the most easily understood by an outsider like me, but I think there may be caste related firstnames and other cultural indicators that I'm not aware of.
The system even persists today outside of the continent: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-11/how-big-t...
Indians who were enslaved and brought to Carribean are the only immigrants who stopped using caste system.
The article mentions Cisco.
In terms of legality, it was banned in the Indian Constitution:
Part III Section 15 of the Indian Constitution:
15. Prohibition of discrimination on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth.—
https://cdnbbsr.s3waas.gov.in/s380537a945c7aaa788ccfcdf1b99b...
Part III Section 15 of the Indian Constitution:
15. Prohibition of discrimination on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth.—
https://cdnbbsr.s3waas.gov.in/s380537a945c7aaa788ccfcdf1b99b...
The caste system in India is illegal, but lives on in California gig work. Almost all the Indians are kind polite and intelligent as a rule, mostly kind. But every so often, you will see someone in a business setting acting like a toddler. B. Confirmed.
The closest thing we had was that tennis player who broke rackets.
I should drop names, as they are still running around, but I would rather talk about the best of them. Nice V.P of engineering at E. He had an office so I was a bit more polite. Turns out he was more nice than brilliant, and he was really brilliant so things went very well.
I would guess that adherence to the system is a maturity
The closest thing we had was that tennis player who broke rackets.
I should drop names, as they are still running around, but I would rather talk about the best of them. Nice V.P of engineering at E. He had an office so I was a bit more polite. Turns out he was more nice than brilliant, and he was really brilliant so things went very well.
I would guess that adherence to the system is a maturity
Discrimination based on race, gender, socio-economic class, age, ... is illegal in the UK, EU, and I think the US (or at least California).
Does that help? It's not exactly the same obviously, and I don't mean to imply that, caste system has (or retains) much stronger cultural roots.
I do think the idea, Indophile though I am, that India was itching to get away from it, as though it was entirely imposed upon it, is a bit rich. As I understand, it was somewhat formalised by Britishers, for censa and whatever else, but the foundations are ancient.
Does that help? It's not exactly the same obviously, and I don't mean to imply that, caste system has (or retains) much stronger cultural roots.
I do think the idea, Indophile though I am, that India was itching to get away from it, as though it was entirely imposed upon it, is a bit rich. As I understand, it was somewhat formalised by Britishers, for censa and whatever else, but the foundations are ancient.
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Caste system is still widespread in India. Just ask anyone if they are married to the person with the same caste or not? and 95% of time they would say yes. Even if your father left India when he was 3, you still belong to a caste. Its not a system enforced by the government but people themselves. Religion & Government have limited power in India, Society is basically what determines everything in India, and it enforces caste. Caste system is associated with hinduism but even Christians, Muslims and Sikhs in India have a caste. Only people I know who are not following caste system are Affluent Muslims, Jains & Tribals, but they have their own systems.
What’s a law with no teeth?
[deleted]
Grateful for your dad's service
I do not see why this was downvoted and flagged.
Very cool; condolences.
To all talking anti war here, do you never talk about american veterans of vietnam war. Do you not remember their service positively while still being against the war?
Let a man remember his father. Especially when he is talking about building bridges and not how valiantly he killed n enemy soldiers.
Interesting! It is not often that we get to hear about the achievements of the engineering arm of the armed forces in India.
People ITT should read about the Bangladesh Liberation War which the man's father here fought in. Pakistani troops mass raped between 200,000 and 400,000 women and killed an estimated 300,000 to 3,000,000 people. And USA supported Pakistan.
> Indian troops invaded East Pakistan to help the Bengali rebels, forced the Pakistan military to surrender, and created the new nation of Bangladesh.
AFAICT OP’s father was on the side of the rebels, not the Pakistani troops you’re talking about right?
AFAICT OP’s father was on the side of the rebels, not the Pakistani troops you’re talking about right?
"Bengali rebels" aka the freedom fighters where helped greatly by the Indian forces. Yes, his father helped the freedom fighters.
Yes, America's involvement was pretty shameful, but the author's father was in the Indian army fighting against the genocidal Pakistani army.
[deleted]
garganzol(2)
sublinear(5)
My condolences.
I wish the author could explain why he chooses to disclose that he is a _Bramhin_.
The author seems to have emigrated to a different part of the world but still mentions labels used for the longest running discrimination of humans in history.
I wish the author could explain why he chooses to disclose that he is a _Bramhin_.
The author seems to have emigrated to a different part of the world but still mentions labels used for the longest running discrimination of humans in history.
> He wouldn't hurt a fly, literally. If he caught a creature inside the house, he would carefully open the window and toss it out. Even when a cobra came out of the grass in the monsoons, he would not let us hurt it. Raised in a strict Maharashtrian Brahmin household and then in the College of Engineering in Pune, he was well-read but hadn't seen much of the real world before entering the Indian Military Academy in Dehradun.
The first three sentences paints a picture of a man of unusual ethics. The tidbit about his Bramhin background explains why he is that way.
An Indian might be able to infer the Brahmin tidbit from the first part. But as an European reader like myself, it is relevant to know that the ethics is rooted in religious upbringing and not just eccentricity (which would be the typical explanation for why a person would behave like that in Europe).
The first three sentences paints a picture of a man of unusual ethics. The tidbit about his Bramhin background explains why he is that way.
An Indian might be able to infer the Brahmin tidbit from the first part. But as an European reader like myself, it is relevant to know that the ethics is rooted in religious upbringing and not just eccentricity (which would be the typical explanation for why a person would behave like that in Europe).
Raised in a strict Maharashtrian Brahmin household
That sentance adds background about the father's upbringing. It's no different from saying someone grew up in a secular Jewish household or that their parents were born again Christians.
That sentance adds background about the father's upbringing. It's no different from saying someone grew up in a secular Jewish household or that their parents were born again Christians.
Randomizer42(4)
My condolences to OP.
My guess is that it tied to the “don’t harm anything” story? I was curious to see how people with these different extremely rigid belief systems adjust in the military.
I’m also “Brahmin” by birth but a beef eating atheist so don’t give a crap about it. But grew up around enough relatives that cared and never understood how they reconciled trying to be strict in some areas but being lax in others.
That’s why I was curious about how they adjust in the military.
My guess is that it tied to the “don’t harm anything” story? I was curious to see how people with these different extremely rigid belief systems adjust in the military.
I’m also “Brahmin” by birth but a beef eating atheist so don’t give a crap about it. But grew up around enough relatives that cared and never understood how they reconciled trying to be strict in some areas but being lax in others.
That’s why I was curious about how they adjust in the military.
> never understood how they reconciled trying to be strict in some areas but being lax in others
IMHO you’re describing all humans ever. We all live with constant choices between conforming and rebelling - religious, societal, etc. It’s not that surprising?
IMHO you’re describing all humans ever. We all live with constant choices between conforming and rebelling - religious, societal, etc. It’s not that surprising?
No but in this case it’s seemingly dogmatic stuff, like hey cook meat in different pans from the pans used for vegetarians, but then eat at restaurants where you couldn’t obviously enforce that.
But yes there is always plenty of inconsistency.
But yes there is always plenty of inconsistency.
In the US, we might say "Upper class," or "Privileged," or "Established family."
I suspect that was what he meant, but sometimes terms don't age so well. There's a whole bunch of terms that were commonly used throughout our South, that would be considered insults or racist dog-whistles, these days.
I suspect that was what he meant, but sometimes terms don't age so well. There's a whole bunch of terms that were commonly used throughout our South, that would be considered insults or racist dog-whistles, these days.
What do you know about the caste system? Do you similarly police posts that say, “he grew up on a nobleman’s estate in England,” or “grew up on a farm in Alabama,” just because those are associated with historical oppression?
This smearing of Hindus and Indians with accusations about caste are ridiculous and par for the course on HN where Indo-phobia is pretty commonplace (see any discussion of US work visas, for example).
This smearing of Hindus and Indians with accusations about caste are ridiculous and par for the course on HN where Indo-phobia is pretty commonplace (see any discussion of US work visas, for example).
> he is a _Bramhin_
By "he" do you mean the author or the author's father?
By "he" do you mean the author or the author's father?
Overnight production for this huge custom design sounds pretty intense to say the least. Wow.
My condolences by the way.
I was doing some digging in my own family lines in recent years, since I had previously mainly been taught to focus on and respect those ancestors who had been part of the religion into which I was born. When I decided not to practice it anymore, it was like I had to rediscover my own heritage.
I was pretty happy to find a bridge-engineer in the family who didn't fit the same mold. It's fascinating to me that not too long ago, you could build a 600-foot rail bridge responsible for so many millions of tons of freight, without even getting a university degree beforehand.