Ask HN: How to cope with pressure to be the best?
Being raised in an Asian household, my siblings and I were always expected to be the best at everything we do. Having lived under the pressure of being the best at everything, I have internalized the behavior. If I’m reading a book, I want to squeeze every last bit of knowledge and apply it so that I can be the best at whatever the book is teaching. If I’m playing chess, I optimize for winning every game. The only acceptable goal I set for myself is being number 1 not number 2 or 3. Because of this, I cannot enjoy any activity. I want to read just for kicks and the joy of understanding a new topic. I want to play chess so that I can understand every strategy even if it means I will lose some games. But I am unable to do so. Has anyone else experienced this? What are some strategies to deal with self set high goals and pressure?
44 comments
This might be crazy but... what if you set a meta-goal of being the best at... balance?
So for instance, if you must win at everything you try, and you avoid everything else, that is not balance. If you choose what to do to "win" and what to do to "enjoy" that is moving towards balance.
Perfect balance would be counteracting the stress you place upon yourself to win with the happiness you get from enjoying processes.
If you decide that you are pursuing balance, then you can be the best at that too.
So for instance, if you must win at everything you try, and you avoid everything else, that is not balance. If you choose what to do to "win" and what to do to "enjoy" that is moving towards balance.
Perfect balance would be counteracting the stress you place upon yourself to win with the happiness you get from enjoying processes.
If you decide that you are pursuing balance, then you can be the best at that too.
This is what helped me work through some perfectionism tendencies: change the target. Reframing from 'making sure this project goes perfectly' to 'maximizing my personal benefit' helped me step back a bit and prioritize balance
Maybe this is why all the religions come from Asia too. There's always some Asian dude thinks the framework for balance is not good enough. Unironicallly happened with something like Aikido.
This is genius advice.
One additional thing to consider is that you win by having a better life. You can win at chess, with a great investment of time, but what is the opportunity cost of that investment of being good at chess?
If you are a god of chess, but the person you beat can go home and make their kid smile, bang a beautiful woman who loves them, and wake up the next day to work a satisfying job where they are improving the state of humanity, who really won?
If you are a god of chess, but the person you beat can go home and make their kid smile, bang a beautiful woman who loves them, and wake up the next day to work a satisfying job where they are improving the state of humanity, who really won?
Eh. Most comments here are about reframing the problem to be a different kinda best.
Not bad recommendations, but doesn’t get to the root of the problem.
Generally, the need to be the best comes from having been raised in an environment where you are mainly validated / cared for / loved / given attention when you are doing the best. You identified a bit of this in your post.
Over time, your subconscious learns that the only way to be accepted in the world is to do the best.
Reframing the problem to be the best at something else doesn’t solve that core wound.
If you want to be able to relieve yourself of high goals and pressure you need to work on your subconscious self accepting you only when you’re doing the best.
What does that look like?
- Spending more time with other people who aren’t perfect. - Noticing the feeling that comes up with you when you fail at something. Acknowledging the feelings. - pay attention to things in your life that you’re not the best at and notice the ways in which you are still ok. (I’m not the best electrician, but the lights in my house still work). (I’m not a pilot / flight attendant, but the airplane still got there). (last week I got second place at a basketball game, but my team still invited me)
It’s long work, but if you choose to pursue it, you come out with the ability to be at peace in the world where you are at. Also generally as a side product, you can be more successful with that relaxed attitude.
This is a late comment, but if anyone has questions would be happy to provide references/ further readings & answer questions.
Not bad recommendations, but doesn’t get to the root of the problem.
Generally, the need to be the best comes from having been raised in an environment where you are mainly validated / cared for / loved / given attention when you are doing the best. You identified a bit of this in your post.
Over time, your subconscious learns that the only way to be accepted in the world is to do the best.
Reframing the problem to be the best at something else doesn’t solve that core wound.
If you want to be able to relieve yourself of high goals and pressure you need to work on your subconscious self accepting you only when you’re doing the best.
What does that look like?
- Spending more time with other people who aren’t perfect. - Noticing the feeling that comes up with you when you fail at something. Acknowledging the feelings. - pay attention to things in your life that you’re not the best at and notice the ways in which you are still ok. (I’m not the best electrician, but the lights in my house still work). (I’m not a pilot / flight attendant, but the airplane still got there). (last week I got second place at a basketball game, but my team still invited me)
It’s long work, but if you choose to pursue it, you come out with the ability to be at peace in the world where you are at. Also generally as a side product, you can be more successful with that relaxed attitude.
This is a late comment, but if anyone has questions would be happy to provide references/ further readings & answer questions.
Also, get an animal (a cat or a dog) and be friendly with them. A cat coming over of their own volition and purring in your lap is a powerful reminder that you don't need to accomplish anything to be a valid human being. Cats are great teachers.
Read philosophy (Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Montaigne) to get more perspective and further internalize these things.
Meditate to get more awareness of what you are thinking and to further learn to be ok with non-doing and non-striving.
Read philosophy (Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Montaigne) to get more perspective and further internalize these things.
Meditate to get more awareness of what you are thinking and to further learn to be ok with non-doing and non-striving.
"The new Toughness Training in sports" is a somewhat dated book that talks about exactly your mindset and the problem with it and what a better mindset is, particularly if you want to win.
You're probably also in an environment where you have emotions you were probably never taught how to deal with and a childhood where your parents might have never "seen" you. Maybe you might question if they would choose to spend time with you.
If that's the case, you might read "running on empty" to get a glimpse of one potentially catastrophic future and focus on avoiding it now, rather than when you realize "winning" is a likely hedonistic and potentially empty pursuit and everything that creates a satisfying life is related to your emotions, for which social relationships are likely to have a positive impact while your "status" is likely to have a negative impact.
You're probably also in an environment where you have emotions you were probably never taught how to deal with and a childhood where your parents might have never "seen" you. Maybe you might question if they would choose to spend time with you.
If that's the case, you might read "running on empty" to get a glimpse of one potentially catastrophic future and focus on avoiding it now, rather than when you realize "winning" is a likely hedonistic and potentially empty pursuit and everything that creates a satisfying life is related to your emotions, for which social relationships are likely to have a positive impact while your "status" is likely to have a negative impact.
There is wisdom in the saying, “it’s not whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game”.
The goal shouldn’t be to win at any single game. The goal should be to play in such a way that you are invited back to play more games. This maximizes your probability of playing in the set of all games, which improves your chance of success in whichever area you’re in.
The path of winning at all costs is self-terminating. With continually increasing pressure to produce a result, one inevitably resorts to unethical approaches like poisoning your opponent. Because eventually one’s talents and skill-building hit a ceiling. The path that moves further, requires a team.
Who improves the most at chess over time? A person who:
- Wins at any cost
- Improves continually, regardless of short-term results
- Builds relationships in the process of improvement
The lone genius like Bobby Fischer is rare, and it didn’t end so well for him. Much more common is a grandmaster who has a dozen international master friends they’ve hung out with for years. A tribe.
The difference in results between the pressure cooker and an enjoyable ride is smaller than you think: https://sive.rs/relax
The bar you’ve chosen is arbitrary. Why not twice as high? Fundamentally, one has to decide which path they want to be on long term. Lowering your arbitrary bar by 3% and engaging with your craft in groups of shared joy will get you 10x farther long term.
The goal shouldn’t be to win at any single game. The goal should be to play in such a way that you are invited back to play more games. This maximizes your probability of playing in the set of all games, which improves your chance of success in whichever area you’re in.
The path of winning at all costs is self-terminating. With continually increasing pressure to produce a result, one inevitably resorts to unethical approaches like poisoning your opponent. Because eventually one’s talents and skill-building hit a ceiling. The path that moves further, requires a team.
Who improves the most at chess over time? A person who:
- Wins at any cost
- Improves continually, regardless of short-term results
- Builds relationships in the process of improvement
The lone genius like Bobby Fischer is rare, and it didn’t end so well for him. Much more common is a grandmaster who has a dozen international master friends they’ve hung out with for years. A tribe.
The difference in results between the pressure cooker and an enjoyable ride is smaller than you think: https://sive.rs/relax
The bar you’ve chosen is arbitrary. Why not twice as high? Fundamentally, one has to decide which path they want to be on long term. Lowering your arbitrary bar by 3% and engaging with your craft in groups of shared joy will get you 10x farther long term.
You'll probably need to see a therapist if you really want to work on this issue.
I think it's important to have focus and direction. It's very challenging to have hobbies or side projects when you're focused and have direction.
For example, you feel like you're wasting your time reading a fiction book when you could be doing X to make more progress. Playing a video game? Forget about it. I got to a point where I wouldn't even listen to music because it may take some other gains away.
I struggled with these same problems ( I'm not even Asian =P ). I wish there was some magical fix, but there isn't. What I found to be best is to embrace it... I picked roughly three things I want to excel at and I center my life around those things.
This means I won't ever learn how to make digital music, pixel art, read X fiction books or whatever, but life is short. I'd rather excel at a few things I care about deeply and pass on everything else.
For example, you feel like you're wasting your time reading a fiction book when you could be doing X to make more progress. Playing a video game? Forget about it. I got to a point where I wouldn't even listen to music because it may take some other gains away.
I struggled with these same problems ( I'm not even Asian =P ). I wish there was some magical fix, but there isn't. What I found to be best is to embrace it... I picked roughly three things I want to excel at and I center my life around those things.
This means I won't ever learn how to make digital music, pixel art, read X fiction books or whatever, but life is short. I'd rather excel at a few things I care about deeply and pass on everything else.
I married into a very high achieving Asian family and I understand what these attitudes do to a person.
I am a regular dude who figured out a different strategy.
You will observe that there are plenty of successful people who aren’t as smart as you. They just worked hard. Therefore, I reasoned that by just working hard and with a little bit of common sense, I could get better than 80% of most people without being particularly smart.
I am a good programmer, but not the best. I’m a pretty decent business person, but not the best. I am a pretty good writer and public speaker, but not the best. Combining these things help me create what by most standards would be a very successful career, despite being kicked out of high school and not finishing college.
I am a regular dude who figured out a different strategy.
You will observe that there are plenty of successful people who aren’t as smart as you. They just worked hard. Therefore, I reasoned that by just working hard and with a little bit of common sense, I could get better than 80% of most people without being particularly smart.
I am a good programmer, but not the best. I’m a pretty decent business person, but not the best. I am a pretty good writer and public speaker, but not the best. Combining these things help me create what by most standards would be a very successful career, despite being kicked out of high school and not finishing college.
Honestly, the best solution is to fail, in my opinion. I was taught at an early age that academic performance determines the worth of your soul and that if you don't get the most prestigious certification possible, then you're less than human. In addition to that, I didn't have the best possible childhood. As a result, I ended up basing my sense of self-worth on my grades.
Later, I became disillusioned with the idea of education, so I let my performance drop. And I remember the first time I got a B I felt like a second-class citizen. But that's all that happened. I wasn't forced into poverty, the world didn't collapse because of my grade. In fact, people outside of my family didn't even care. So, as I got more imperfect grades, I became more at ease with the idea of being second.
I don't think you should try to stop being a perfectionist. That part is never going away. You just have to moderate it. Ask yourself, 'Is this mistake truly fatal?' If not, try to experience it in a controlled environment, e.g. play chess on a timer and always choose the first move that comes to mind. Then turn off the computer and notice how little it affects the rest of your life. Do this every once in a while, and you'll eventually reduce the pressure to a strong desire.
Later, I became disillusioned with the idea of education, so I let my performance drop. And I remember the first time I got a B I felt like a second-class citizen. But that's all that happened. I wasn't forced into poverty, the world didn't collapse because of my grade. In fact, people outside of my family didn't even care. So, as I got more imperfect grades, I became more at ease with the idea of being second.
I don't think you should try to stop being a perfectionist. That part is never going away. You just have to moderate it. Ask yourself, 'Is this mistake truly fatal?' If not, try to experience it in a controlled environment, e.g. play chess on a timer and always choose the first move that comes to mind. Then turn off the computer and notice how little it affects the rest of your life. Do this every once in a while, and you'll eventually reduce the pressure to a strong desire.
Optimize for gains not status.
If you can realistically be 2% better but that requires 2x the work then you are a pretty terrible optimizer. There are other areas where you could as 10% more effort and get 2x better. If you optimize that way the value of yourself as a complete package grows. You will still be the best because you optimize the best but you will allocate your limited time more effectively. You just need to be well aware that you chose not the be the best at X so that you could be pretty good at Y and Z and that makes you a better unit.
If you can realistically be 2% better but that requires 2x the work then you are a pretty terrible optimizer. There are other areas where you could as 10% more effort and get 2x better. If you optimize that way the value of yourself as a complete package grows. You will still be the best because you optimize the best but you will allocate your limited time more effectively. You just need to be well aware that you chose not the be the best at X so that you could be pretty good at Y and Z and that makes you a better unit.
I can't understand this life style. To be the best at thinking deeply I need my mind to relax and focus in the goal, so to obtain a flux that point me in the direction to progress. Any anxiety or hurry is only going to make me blind to new opportunities. So, my advice is to learn to focus in a good target and forget playing being the number one.
Edited: Anyway, if you are unable to change that life style, I suggest you dedicate your life to something important for the rest of society, perhaps that can ameliorate being second in other fields.
Edited: Anyway, if you are unable to change that life style, I suggest you dedicate your life to something important for the rest of society, perhaps that can ameliorate being second in other fields.
There's a bit in Snow Crash that goes on an on about being the "baddest motherfucker in the world". How if only you had the right training or thirst for revenge or whatever, you could be the baddest motherfucker in the world. And then it says Hiro doesn't have to worry about that because the position is taken (in the novel, by antagonist and terrorist Raven).
So when I worry about not being the baddest motherfucker in the world, I just remind myself that we live in a universe with Kristy Hawkins in it. Kristy Hawkins graduated summa cum laude from Texas A&M University and got her Ph.D. in chemical engineering from CalTech. She did this while pursuing a bodybuilding career that took her to the Ms. Olympia stage. As a point of reference, Dolph Lundgren decided he could only do one or the other and forwent his Ph.D. in favor of bodybuilding and acting.
Currently, Kristy is a principal in a biotech startup that has had enormous success synthesizing pharmaceutical compounds from yeast, so she is not even in the unfortunate position of so many biochem Ph.D.s, grinding away as a postdoc in some dead-end non-tenure university job. She's making serious money.
And she is the #2 powerlifter in the world by DOTS score. Not the #2 female powerlifter. The #2 powerlifter.
So if there ever were a candidate for baddest motherfucker in the world, Kristy Hawkins definitely is one. And I know I will never be as good at... seemingly everything as Kristy Hawkins is. So I try to focus my energy on things I know I can do and things I enjoy getting better at, like programming, cooking, and taking care of my wife and the animals. Ultimately that last bit is the most important thing, doing right by those you care about.
Just take some time each day to remind yourself that you will never be the baddest motherfucker in the world. And you will never quiet the stern angry voice of your father in your head telling you you fucked up, you failed, you weren't good enough. So get rid of the need to be the baddest (because it'll never happen) and ignore your father's voice. Your real father will get old anyway and as he ages he will realize what an asshole he's been and mellow out and reforge a bond with the person you are, not the person he wishes you were. (That is if he's anything like mine. And just substitute mother for father if she was the one doing most of the pushing.) Just focus on doing things you love and don't be afraid of screwing up! Every chess grandmaster lost many games getting to where they are. The winner of the Tour de France fell off their bike dozens of times learning to ride.
So when I worry about not being the baddest motherfucker in the world, I just remind myself that we live in a universe with Kristy Hawkins in it. Kristy Hawkins graduated summa cum laude from Texas A&M University and got her Ph.D. in chemical engineering from CalTech. She did this while pursuing a bodybuilding career that took her to the Ms. Olympia stage. As a point of reference, Dolph Lundgren decided he could only do one or the other and forwent his Ph.D. in favor of bodybuilding and acting.
Currently, Kristy is a principal in a biotech startup that has had enormous success synthesizing pharmaceutical compounds from yeast, so she is not even in the unfortunate position of so many biochem Ph.D.s, grinding away as a postdoc in some dead-end non-tenure university job. She's making serious money.
And she is the #2 powerlifter in the world by DOTS score. Not the #2 female powerlifter. The #2 powerlifter.
So if there ever were a candidate for baddest motherfucker in the world, Kristy Hawkins definitely is one. And I know I will never be as good at... seemingly everything as Kristy Hawkins is. So I try to focus my energy on things I know I can do and things I enjoy getting better at, like programming, cooking, and taking care of my wife and the animals. Ultimately that last bit is the most important thing, doing right by those you care about.
Just take some time each day to remind yourself that you will never be the baddest motherfucker in the world. And you will never quiet the stern angry voice of your father in your head telling you you fucked up, you failed, you weren't good enough. So get rid of the need to be the baddest (because it'll never happen) and ignore your father's voice. Your real father will get old anyway and as he ages he will realize what an asshole he's been and mellow out and reforge a bond with the person you are, not the person he wishes you were. (That is if he's anything like mine. And just substitute mother for father if she was the one doing most of the pushing.) Just focus on doing things you love and don't be afraid of screwing up! Every chess grandmaster lost many games getting to where they are. The winner of the Tour de France fell off their bike dozens of times learning to ride.
I don't have anything to add, but I really like this comment.
And that Nobel laureate who runs sub 3 hour marathons.
I think it can help to reframe it as “be my best”. Being the best in the world is impossible for over 99% of the population.
Also look up T shaped experience and so on. Maybe you can carve out something where you are the best much more easily than say chess, basketball, violin etc.
The best at building code for robots that help city workers keep streets clean, for example.
Or even the best neighbour for the old couple across the street.
Family pressure can be crazy though and can really mess people up.
Also look up T shaped experience and so on. Maybe you can carve out something where you are the best much more easily than say chess, basketball, violin etc.
The best at building code for robots that help city workers keep streets clean, for example.
Or even the best neighbour for the old couple across the street.
Family pressure can be crazy though and can really mess people up.
It’s winning versus endurance. If you play to win there is a terminal objective and it’s done. Finished, game over. If you play for endurance your goal is to out survive the competition. It’s playing the long game, quality over quantity.
If your only goal is to win then just cheat at what you do and keep the competition small. It doesn’t matter because by the time anybody cares you should have already moved on to something totally unrelated to dominate.
If your only goal is to win then just cheat at what you do and keep the competition small. It doesn’t matter because by the time anybody cares you should have already moved on to something totally unrelated to dominate.
I'm very competitive. I don't feel bad about myself if I'm 2nd best, but I know it means I'm not finished.
I also used to wonder how to shut it off, and I managed to. And it was...fine. But I turned the competitive drive back on, on purpose.
For me, and maybe for you, competition is what makes life fun.
I would contend that this might be your superpower. If you think it suits you, lean into it.
I also used to wonder how to shut it off, and I managed to. And it was...fine. But I turned the competitive drive back on, on purpose.
For me, and maybe for you, competition is what makes life fun.
I would contend that this might be your superpower. If you think it suits you, lean into it.
For me competition makes life stressful and I'd rather cooperate than compete. I sometimes wish I was competitive but it was never ingrained within me and it's too late now. Somehow I am competitive, in a stubborn way, but only with myself and never care about actual points or prestige. If you enjoy competing it's kind of cool but beware that some people aren't into it and that there are multiple ways to get to your goals, and they take different paths through life's journey.
I do not have that particular problem, but may I recommend for you to look for books on the subject?
A search on Audible for "overachiever" came up with this: https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Achievement-Trap-Audiobook/B0...
A search on Audible for "overachiever" came up with this: https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Achievement-Trap-Audiobook/B0...
That looks like a great resource! I did purchase the book and I will go through it in the hopes of finding a solution. Thank you!
Or, ya know, just read it and see what it brings. Remove the hope, the expectations on yourself, the pressure…just try to read it and be kind to yourself, amigo.
Trying to win every time is getting trapped in a local maxima. Sometimes you learn more taking the low man position. Sometimes that is the only way to learn certain things. If you are truly trying to optimize you will drop the premature optimization that is trying to be number 1 all the time in everything.
Optimize for learning not status.
Optimize for learning not status.
It sounds like your brain has been wired in a very specific way. Perhaps it could use reprogramming? One option is psilocybin therapy. It's supposed to be able to make this underlying wiring more malleable in a way that can lead you to having more contentment and joy in life.
I’m the opposite. I think you just need to realize life is short and not a moment should ever be wasted.
I'm the opposite as well. I enjoyed every single moment of my life, including boring work because I have an a good attitude of looking at something I could enjoy while I do things that I simply have to (e.g. my office job of being a
digital plumber). I feel the OP's pain, I was given a lot of liberty in my life to do whatever I wanted and I was simply lucky to be passionate about the things that got me to where I am, I was actually kind of neglected by my parents when it came to education, I was free to pursue whatever I wished. All I can say is that if I wasn't lucky to have my passions I would've ended up in a pretty bad position by now. I respect the way many Asians are able hardwork their way through to a better life, most Asians that I know managed to get themselves in a pretty sweet spot this way but I can't imagine having this forced upon me by my family. Maybe I would've done tenfold better and achieved a lot more things than I did in my life this way but I'm already wired in a different way.
But what is considered a “moment wasted”? “Stop wasting you time” is an expression we are all aware of, and probably heard many times. Yet, philosophically speaking, isn’t life a waste of time?
In cases like this I always recommend meditation as the best strategy. In fact, in almost 100% of the case of worries and anxiety resulting from your thoughts, meditation is the right answer. And if you try being the best in meditation, you are in for a wild and worthy ride.
You can't always be the best so you have to accept being second best for your sanity. Such stress can take years off your life so being average and not caring is an important skill to learn. Telling parents to chill and relax also helps.
Congrats, I can assure you just by existing you ensure you're not necessarily the best at everything. You're already doing this every sec. Not being sarcastic or mean, fyi. But I think you already know this, right?
Get a PhD in math. Meet luminaries such as Terry Tao and Noam Elkies. Breathe a sigh of relief that you don't need to be the best, because that spot is taken.
Concentrate this recognized drive into an area where you have an unfair advantage.
Go ahead and be the best.
Make sure it's in a situation where nobody notices or cares anyway.
For best results ;)
Go ahead and be the best.
Make sure it's in a situation where nobody notices or cares anyway.
For best results ;)
What are you the best at?
I don't think I'm really the best at anything, just try to be the best I can be at a few things.
Instruments are what I work on doing natural science for the most part. Sometimes do an equation or two. Getting better all the time but I don't do it competitively. Always known I'll never reach the top. That's not where I'm going.
More like a mountain range better for me to behold from a ways back, rather than a peak to ascend.
There's always somebody having similar drive to OP who is closer to the top of most summits.
So many hills nobody is even climbing that look interesting if I get a wild hair. Wouldn't have to go as high if I took the chance. Only a radical stroke of fortune could put something really big within the realm of possibility.
Best results for me have come by refraining from seeking eminence.
Make more progress that way.
Instruments are what I work on doing natural science for the most part. Sometimes do an equation or two. Getting better all the time but I don't do it competitively. Always known I'll never reach the top. That's not where I'm going.
More like a mountain range better for me to behold from a ways back, rather than a peak to ascend.
There's always somebody having similar drive to OP who is closer to the top of most summits.
So many hills nobody is even climbing that look interesting if I get a wild hair. Wouldn't have to go as high if I took the chance. Only a radical stroke of fortune could put something really big within the realm of possibility.
Best results for me have come by refraining from seeking eminence.
Make more progress that way.
It is a fundamental that cannot be altered easily. I'd advise actually go the reverse, enhance that mindset and try to burn yourself eventually.
earn enough money so that you can afford to lose, then start losing!
losing is fun, and is the best way to learn.
winners all do the same thing, losers all do different things.
if you’re not regularly losing, you’re probably not doing anything interesting or challenging.
also, if you can afford to lose, you can afford disinterest in the judgment of others.
losing is fun, and is the best way to learn.
winners all do the same thing, losers all do different things.
if you’re not regularly losing, you’re probably not doing anything interesting or challenging.
also, if you can afford to lose, you can afford disinterest in the judgment of others.
It's interesting that I go through life completely devoid of concepts of winning and loosing. Of course, I play a game here and there, chess or something, and that does involve winning or losing but it's so inconsequential that I could say I can neglect winning or losing.
Whether it's a lottery or not it's often said "you can't win if you don't play the game".
Equally true, you can't lose if you don't play the game either.
And you can't lose much if you don't play the game much.
Equally true, you can't lose if you don't play the game either.
And you can't lose much if you don't play the game much.
Meditation.