Ask HN: What EU country has the highest developer salary?
Where in EU should I move if I'm looking for the highest salary for a developer? What sector? Switzerland is famous for finance but I'm self-taught, I know some country are ok with it, and some not at all. No idea for Switzerland.
50 comments
Switzerland, Zurich has lots of tech jobs and great salaries.
It's not officially Europe but easy enough to work here if you have an EU passport / have 3yrs of industry experience. I'm on 200k here
Nitpick: It is officially Europe but not EU
Switzerland is in the question though and the topic is free movement as a worker, so obviously anywhere in the Schengen Area is on topic.
Which sectors do you see at 200k+? Seems like a general problem that the large banks pay 250k+ but don't have very interesting work.
Define not interesting work?
is that a faang job? I don't think "ordinary" coder jobs pay that much even in Zurich but I have interviewed only briefly there..
I've lived in nearly every EU country mentioned here. Almost everyone is wrong. The only European country worth considering is Switzerland, all the rest come with serious shortcomings:
- UK: Dystopian, collapsing infrastructure, London is super-expensive.
- Germany: Salaries are not generally high, taxation/bureaucracy/housing in the desirable parts.
- Ireland: High taxes, extreme dysfunction, crazy housing costs.
- Netherlands: High taxes and insane wealth tax on your savings and investments based on fictitious assumed rate of return. With current inflation, if you want to build wealth, NL should be last on the list.
- Sweden/Norway: Average (not high) salaries, high cost of living, high taxes.
- Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece: Low salaries, high taxes, extreme dysfunction.
- Belgium/Luxemburg: Salaries can be higher than average, but I found living there depressing. Cost of living is high.
TL;DR Go to Switzerland. Better yet, move to US. There's no country in Europe that comes close.
- UK: Dystopian, collapsing infrastructure, London is super-expensive.
- Germany: Salaries are not generally high, taxation/bureaucracy/housing in the desirable parts.
- Ireland: High taxes, extreme dysfunction, crazy housing costs.
- Netherlands: High taxes and insane wealth tax on your savings and investments based on fictitious assumed rate of return. With current inflation, if you want to build wealth, NL should be last on the list.
- Sweden/Norway: Average (not high) salaries, high cost of living, high taxes.
- Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece: Low salaries, high taxes, extreme dysfunction.
- Belgium/Luxemburg: Salaries can be higher than average, but I found living there depressing. Cost of living is high.
TL;DR Go to Switzerland. Better yet, move to US. There's no country in Europe that comes close.
I will not deny that the countries you listed have several shortcomings, but accusing countries of extreme dysfunction and then, just a few sentences later, recommending the US made me laugh. If someone only cares about making as much money as possible, then sure the US is probably one of the best countries for that. Personally, I would consider factors like health care, police that is not homicidal, social safety net and other public services much higher.
> Ireland: High taxes, extreme dysfunction, crazy housing costs.
Totally agree with you on this. The country is on a verge of collapse, I have been trying to switch rental apartment and its been 6 months that i am sending my references and no one has even responded to me. If i get evicted from my place, i will have to move out of the country. Its mental, nothing works. My wife is waiting for her driving test date, she has applied online 3 months ago and she hasn’t even gotten a date yet. Same goes for most government services.
Totally agree with you on this. The country is on a verge of collapse, I have been trying to switch rental apartment and its been 6 months that i am sending my references and no one has even responded to me. If i get evicted from my place, i will have to move out of the country. Its mental, nothing works. My wife is waiting for her driving test date, she has applied online 3 months ago and she hasn’t even gotten a date yet. Same goes for most government services.
Really enjoyed reading your thoughts there. Seems accurate for the couple I am familiar with.
When you say collapsing infrastructure for the UK, I'd be curious to know what you mean?
Also for moving to the US, I don't know if you have any insight on the easiest pathway, would I be right in saying that getting a job in FAANG+ type company and L1B internal transfer after a year is the easiest way to do it?
Also for moving to the US, I don't know if you have any insight on the easiest pathway, would I be right in saying that getting a job in FAANG+ type company and L1B internal transfer after a year is the easiest way to do it?
[deleted]
Self taught makes it difficult in Germany unless you have demonstrable and very good experience to show or have excellent references. Might be easier for startups, but for corporates you'll be likely filtered immediately without a bachelor's/master's.
Also good luck finding a reasonably priced flat in metropolitan areas.
Salaries are a lot lower than in the US, 100k+ are uncommon even among C-levels.
Also good luck finding a reasonably priced flat in metropolitan areas.
Salaries are a lot lower than in the US, 100k+ are uncommon even among C-levels.
Comparing US and EU salaries is comparing apples to oranges. US salaries are higher, but in UE you have barely free healtcare, schooling until the university and also a generous welfare.
Based on my research, either Switzerland or London?
Even better, work remotely for a US company? Developer's salary in SF/NYC are unlike anywhere else in the world.
Even better, work remotely for a US company? Developer's salary in SF/NYC are unlike anywhere else in the world.
It used to be UK, London specifically. No longer in EU but still reasonably easy to get in.
After that I'd guess Berlin or Stockholm? Note this is from anecdotes and not hard data.
After that I'd guess Berlin or Stockholm? Note this is from anecdotes and not hard data.
UK's cost of living went through the roof and quality of life has decreased dramatically. It became a third-world country with first-world prices. I wouldn't recommend it at the moment.
are you living in UK now? can you share your perspective and why you think it became a third-world country with first-world prices?
Not parent poster, but Swiss citizen having lived in London for past 2 years, my wife is a healthcare worker for the NHS.
There are def. signs that human suffering of substantial parts of the population has dramatically increased over the last years.
Here‘s what I can see:
- Substantial energy bill increases: For us at least 100% over last year. Media is full of stories of people not being able to heat their homes
- Dramatic inflation, with cost of food now approaching levels I know from Switzerland. For example, a regular weekly shop for 2 people used to be 100£, now it‘s typically 170£.
- Continous strikes of large parts of key sectors: Teachers, Uni staff, train/ tube drivers, nurses, doctors, public servants. They are mostly protesting the fact that pay has not kept up with inflation for the past decade.
- Huge increase in food banks: I think this is a clear proxy for human suffering. There are foodbanks in hospitals for staff.
- I specifically see the suffering of healthcare staff. Service levels are going down to scary/unsafe levels and most doctors I meet through my wife are talking about leaving for Australia or New Zealand or go to other industries (huge waste given that it takes a decade or more to train a doctor).
- Infuriatingly, the link to policy makers is broken. There is no plan or ideas in place from government to improve things. Given the poor quality of the media here, typically the ley workers themselves are blamed (tube drivers, healthcare staff, etc.).
- Obviously Brexit, which is a whole different post but reinforces the feeling over here that things are going in the wrong direction.
Don‘t get me wrong, if you are in software, finance, engineering etc. you can have a very good salary and will not feel the pressures I‘ve listed above (also if you‘re young and don‘t need healthcare services). The UK and London are still amazing places.
But for lots of people quality of life has gone down a lot.
There are def. signs that human suffering of substantial parts of the population has dramatically increased over the last years.
Here‘s what I can see:
- Substantial energy bill increases: For us at least 100% over last year. Media is full of stories of people not being able to heat their homes
- Dramatic inflation, with cost of food now approaching levels I know from Switzerland. For example, a regular weekly shop for 2 people used to be 100£, now it‘s typically 170£.
- Continous strikes of large parts of key sectors: Teachers, Uni staff, train/ tube drivers, nurses, doctors, public servants. They are mostly protesting the fact that pay has not kept up with inflation for the past decade.
- Huge increase in food banks: I think this is a clear proxy for human suffering. There are foodbanks in hospitals for staff.
- I specifically see the suffering of healthcare staff. Service levels are going down to scary/unsafe levels and most doctors I meet through my wife are talking about leaving for Australia or New Zealand or go to other industries (huge waste given that it takes a decade or more to train a doctor).
- Infuriatingly, the link to policy makers is broken. There is no plan or ideas in place from government to improve things. Given the poor quality of the media here, typically the ley workers themselves are blamed (tube drivers, healthcare staff, etc.).
- Obviously Brexit, which is a whole different post but reinforces the feeling over here that things are going in the wrong direction.
Don‘t get me wrong, if you are in software, finance, engineering etc. you can have a very good salary and will not feel the pressures I‘ve listed above (also if you‘re young and don‘t need healthcare services). The UK and London are still amazing places.
But for lots of people quality of life has gone down a lot.
Anecdotally, seems there's a lot of British and European expats here in the Valley and they don't seem too keen on returning. We've been getting a lot of international applicants (but work from home was supposed to mean Europeans could avoid moving to the "dangerous" US but work for American companies?).
Post 2016 the messaging from most commonwealth countries (UK, Canada, Australia) seemed to be that they were going to be the ones benefiting from a brain drain of Americans leaving the country. Canada was supposed to become an "AI Superpower" and Universities in the UK were supposed to be where innovation was going to happen next due to the perceived hostility of the United States to foreign talent. I recall someone pitching the "Silicon Roundabout" and that Cambridge and Oxford were going to be the new Stanford and MIT.
It's interesting, in retrospective, to see how wrong these predictions were. Top destination for UK nationals in Academia was, and still is... the US [0].
[0] http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-bra...
Post 2016 the messaging from most commonwealth countries (UK, Canada, Australia) seemed to be that they were going to be the ones benefiting from a brain drain of Americans leaving the country. Canada was supposed to become an "AI Superpower" and Universities in the UK were supposed to be where innovation was going to happen next due to the perceived hostility of the United States to foreign talent. I recall someone pitching the "Silicon Roundabout" and that Cambridge and Oxford were going to be the new Stanford and MIT.
It's interesting, in retrospective, to see how wrong these predictions were. Top destination for UK nationals in Academia was, and still is... the US [0].
[0] http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-bra...
Worth keeping in mind that the UK is third for tech after the US and China. Like, it'd be ridiculous to say the UK stands a chance of properly competing with the US, but it outcompetes basically everyone else who isn't a continent-scale megastate.
Seems kind of irrelevant as an employee; my coworkers who went to a Chinese employer have regrets. Working for the hotel California I've had happy coworkers in Canada, Ireland, Netherlands, Switzerland, Czech Republic and Italy.
NHS service levels are a real issue. The NHS has actually collapsed and unfortunately the population is in denial about this because being honest about the causes is difficult, ideologically.
It has been bleeding staff to Australia/NZ for many years, that isn't something new. A more proximate cause was the forced vaccinations of care home staff. Social care was already seriously short staffed pre-2020 and lack of social care capacity was a long term oft-discussed problem. The mandates however took a serious problem and turned it into a catastrophe. They caused an exodus that pushed the sector into absolute unavailability and consequent high levels of bed blocking due to inability to discharge patients back into the community. In turn that causes ambulances to stack up waiting for beds. It also trashed the ability to recruit new people to the sector, as care home work was already minimum wage and now comes with the significant downside that you may be forced to take experimental medical products you don't want regardless of side effects.
https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/social-care/warning-many-c...
It is estimated that tens of thousands of care home staff left their jobs because of the policy, leading to “immense workforce pressures” and contributing to the “most serious staffing crisis for decades”, according to Vic Rayner, chief executive of the National Care Forum (NCF), which brings together 160 of the UK’s social care organisation. Other results showed the negative impact around recruitment, with 94% of respondents stating they thought the policy had made this more difficult.
The mandates weren't supported by any RCT evidence and turned out to be useless. The costs of this policy are now being borne in the form of deaths that could have been avoided if only ambulances got there in time. People are avoiding recognizing this because so many Brits were all-in on mandates and wanted more. Those who warned of the consequences were treated horribly and deplatformed with wild abandon: now the chickens have come home to roost and nobody wants to admit what they've done.
With respect to the other problems, they are an issue all over Europe. Here's a comparison of UK vs EU inflation:
https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/united-kingdom-...
Energy price rises are likewise the same. Trading Economics can't compare energy inflation for the UK vs EU specifically, so here's a comparison with Germany:
https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/united-kingdom-...
Again, it's the same. The cause is Nord Stream and sanctions against Russia, of course.
There is no plan or ideas in place from government to improve things. Given the poor quality of the media here, typically the ley workers themselves are blamed (tube drivers, healthcare staff, etc)
Of course there's no plan or ideas. Except for energy these problems are a direct consequence of the COVID measures which can't be undone now, and which were systematically cheered on or demanded by healthcare staff themselves. The government's wonderful "independent" inquiry looks set to conclude the only mistakes were to not lock down harder, more and earlier so the idea of learning any lessons here is for the birds. The UK will continue to destroy its own healthcare and social care systems until the population accepts that they have the wrong approach.
It has been bleeding staff to Australia/NZ for many years, that isn't something new. A more proximate cause was the forced vaccinations of care home staff. Social care was already seriously short staffed pre-2020 and lack of social care capacity was a long term oft-discussed problem. The mandates however took a serious problem and turned it into a catastrophe. They caused an exodus that pushed the sector into absolute unavailability and consequent high levels of bed blocking due to inability to discharge patients back into the community. In turn that causes ambulances to stack up waiting for beds. It also trashed the ability to recruit new people to the sector, as care home work was already minimum wage and now comes with the significant downside that you may be forced to take experimental medical products you don't want regardless of side effects.
https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/social-care/warning-many-c...
It is estimated that tens of thousands of care home staff left their jobs because of the policy, leading to “immense workforce pressures” and contributing to the “most serious staffing crisis for decades”, according to Vic Rayner, chief executive of the National Care Forum (NCF), which brings together 160 of the UK’s social care organisation. Other results showed the negative impact around recruitment, with 94% of respondents stating they thought the policy had made this more difficult.
The mandates weren't supported by any RCT evidence and turned out to be useless. The costs of this policy are now being borne in the form of deaths that could have been avoided if only ambulances got there in time. People are avoiding recognizing this because so many Brits were all-in on mandates and wanted more. Those who warned of the consequences were treated horribly and deplatformed with wild abandon: now the chickens have come home to roost and nobody wants to admit what they've done.
With respect to the other problems, they are an issue all over Europe. Here's a comparison of UK vs EU inflation:
https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/united-kingdom-...
Energy price rises are likewise the same. Trading Economics can't compare energy inflation for the UK vs EU specifically, so here's a comparison with Germany:
https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/united-kingdom-...
Again, it's the same. The cause is Nord Stream and sanctions against Russia, of course.
There is no plan or ideas in place from government to improve things. Given the poor quality of the media here, typically the ley workers themselves are blamed (tube drivers, healthcare staff, etc)
Of course there's no plan or ideas. Except for energy these problems are a direct consequence of the COVID measures which can't be undone now, and which were systematically cheered on or demanded by healthcare staff themselves. The government's wonderful "independent" inquiry looks set to conclude the only mistakes were to not lock down harder, more and earlier so the idea of learning any lessons here is for the birds. The UK will continue to destroy its own healthcare and social care systems until the population accepts that they have the wrong approach.
Still in the UK, albeit not for much longer unless something changes dramatically.
I say it feels like a third-world country because the usual luxuries you associate with a first-world country such as good infrastructure, law and order, a working healthcare system, etc are no longer there, yet you still pay for them (in the form of taxes).
People in important industries are striking because they can no longer afford to live. As a result those industries collapse. Medicine is especially bad - if you have any kind of health issue you must go private (and be able to afford it) if you don't want to lose your sanity and/or die while waiting for the NHS to actually do what it's meant to do.
The cost of living crisis has put everyone on edge - the general optimism that was felt around before the pandemic is no longer there. Businesses are closing left and right (I've seen multiple repossession notices on commercial property, businesses are outright failing and defaulting on their rents).
I have noticed more homelessness as well as general antisocial/criminal behavior; it's not a surprise, people are either pushed to the edge (where the risk/reward ratio of crime starts being worthwhile) or are finally catching on that law enforcement is dysfunctional and take advantage.
Property prices, especially rents are through the roof. Renting the same standard of property I currently have would cost me over twice as much - I'm actually wondering who is providing the demand for those units considering how bad the economy is... oligarchs? Property standards have always been terrible, so you must go upmarket and pay the overinflated rents if you don't want to live in a moldy shack that looks like a museum exhibit and will bankrupt you on heating bills alone. Buying outright makes no sense considering you can get much higher standards anywhere in Europe for the same price.
I say it feels like a third-world country because the usual luxuries you associate with a first-world country such as good infrastructure, law and order, a working healthcare system, etc are no longer there, yet you still pay for them (in the form of taxes).
People in important industries are striking because they can no longer afford to live. As a result those industries collapse. Medicine is especially bad - if you have any kind of health issue you must go private (and be able to afford it) if you don't want to lose your sanity and/or die while waiting for the NHS to actually do what it's meant to do.
The cost of living crisis has put everyone on edge - the general optimism that was felt around before the pandemic is no longer there. Businesses are closing left and right (I've seen multiple repossession notices on commercial property, businesses are outright failing and defaulting on their rents).
I have noticed more homelessness as well as general antisocial/criminal behavior; it's not a surprise, people are either pushed to the edge (where the risk/reward ratio of crime starts being worthwhile) or are finally catching on that law enforcement is dysfunctional and take advantage.
Property prices, especially rents are through the roof. Renting the same standard of property I currently have would cost me over twice as much - I'm actually wondering who is providing the demand for those units considering how bad the economy is... oligarchs? Property standards have always been terrible, so you must go upmarket and pay the overinflated rents if you don't want to live in a moldy shack that looks like a museum exhibit and will bankrupt you on heating bills alone. Buying outright makes no sense considering you can get much higher standards anywhere in Europe for the same price.
[deleted]
I live in London and think it’s a fairly correct statement. The conservative government basically imploded as a result of Brexit. We’ve had 4 PMs in the space of a few years, each more degenerate than the last. Covid further enabled cronyism and corruption. Honestly it feels like an Eastern European country with the way the government has gone.
I’m still optimistic that things will improve after the tories lose their grip in the next election.
I’m still optimistic that things will improve after the tories lose their grip in the next election.
Nothing works and everyone is waiting for the general election to kick out the government, while hoping they don't get ill or lose their house in the meantime.
On the salary question, I believe Switzerland has higher salaries (but probably an even higher CoL than the UK).
On the salary question, I believe Switzerland has higher salaries (but probably an even higher CoL than the UK).
I don't think that Stockholm, because the income tax in Sweden is really huge.
It's also huge in other developed EU economies - the best paying cities for tech in Europe are outside the EU (mostly London and Zurich). Dublin would probably rank, but it's mostly made up of American tech giants with less domestic activity (and Dublin's housing crisis makes London's look trivial!).
In addition to that, you need to live at least 20 minutes away from the center if you don't want to burn your entire salary on housing and food. It was always expensive to live in the center, but after the recent inflation spike it became even more insane.
If we limit to EU, perhaps Netherlands or Ireland?
If you have EU passport (blue card not enough, really have to have a EU PASSPORT, like a Polish or German one) then Switzerland is easy to move to because it takes part in the "free movement of people" - if you want, send CV to the email in my handle and i hook you up with fitting firms.
If it's strictly EU, I'd say probably Denmark
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
But you mention Switzerland which is not in the EU, so maybe you just meant Europe?
Ireland is a little lower on the list but has a large number of European HQs of big companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, Paypal, AirBnb etc. But the price of housing here is extortionate right now.
Consider the cost of living, not just the highest salary. Norway, Denmark and Switzerland are among the most expensive places to live in the world. You'll pay a lot of your wages in rent, food, tax, utilities etc.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
But you mention Switzerland which is not in the EU, so maybe you just meant Europe?
Ireland is a little lower on the list but has a large number of European HQs of big companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, Paypal, AirBnb etc. But the price of housing here is extortionate right now.
Consider the cost of living, not just the highest salary. Norway, Denmark and Switzerland are among the most expensive places to live in the world. You'll pay a lot of your wages in rent, food, tax, utilities etc.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...
Your wikipedia reference doea not mention Luxembourg. The median salary is more than 20 percent higher than danmark https://today.rtl.lu/news/luxembourg/a/2007306.html and taxes are much lower here too.
Housing is expensive, but that seems to be a global trend.
Housing is expensive, but that seems to be a global trend.
Denmark is crazy expensive and they have an huge real estate bubble that is going to explode, especially in CPH
This is why you have many people working in Luxembourg and living in France, Germany or Belgium.
Having enough money to live well is important, but you should probably consider a few more criteria before immigrating.
[deleted]
If you're just focusing in the European Union, it's definitely Ireland.
Stripe, Square, Microsoft, Google, etc will all pay more in Ireland than they pay in any other EU country.
The problem with Ireland is that you will get no real benefit from the taxes you pay.
If you have family, you'll probably be better off moving to Germany or the Netherlands. There are some serious tax benefits for couples and parents. You will not get that in Ireland.
Specifically, someone close to me left Meta Dublin and moved to Google Berlin and had more money (post taxes) in Germany despite a significant TC cut.
If you don't care about EU, Switzerland. High cost of living but Meta, Google, and Nvidia will offer a salary comparable to the US and lower taxes than the rest of Europe.
Stripe, Square, Microsoft, Google, etc will all pay more in Ireland than they pay in any other EU country.
The problem with Ireland is that you will get no real benefit from the taxes you pay.
If you have family, you'll probably be better off moving to Germany or the Netherlands. There are some serious tax benefits for couples and parents. You will not get that in Ireland.
Specifically, someone close to me left Meta Dublin and moved to Google Berlin and had more money (post taxes) in Germany despite a significant TC cut.
If you don't care about EU, Switzerland. High cost of living but Meta, Google, and Nvidia will offer a salary comparable to the US and lower taxes than the rest of Europe.
> it’s definitely Ireland
Crazy expensive housing, and lot of people cannot even find a place after 6 months moving into the country. Please if someone wants to move to ireland, research about housing first.
Crazy expensive housing, and lot of people cannot even find a place after 6 months moving into the country. Please if someone wants to move to ireland, research about housing first.
In fairness, op asked for high compensation, not cheap housing.
And op will be paying more than 40% of his high compensation in rent only (in dublin/ cork / limrick)
What do you mean by tax benefits? Paying less tax? Or services they get? It's unclear here.
I mean services. Decent public transport, good healthcare, day care for children, etc
Ireland has very low corporation tax, but quite high personal tax. That's why so many major companies are here.