San Francisco loses 2 big conferences(sfgate.com)
sfgate.com
San Francisco loses 2 big conferences
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/san-francisco-loses-meta-red-hat-conferences-18187573.php
136 comments
Definitely not true that you can walk the length of the entire strip in ten minutes. The strip is not super great for pedestrians because you have to keep walking up, around, and through various escalators/bridges/casino entryways. The strip would be much more pedestrian friendly if they closed the main street to cars and let you simply walk at ground level in a direct line.
Anyway, it takes over an hour to walk from one end of the strip to the other. You really do need to pick a nearby hotel, not any strip hotel. And no idea what you're talking about re: walking underground. That's not true for most strip hotels.
But yes, on your overall point, I agree that Las Vegas is a good spot for conventions.
Anyway, it takes over an hour to walk from one end of the strip to the other. You really do need to pick a nearby hotel, not any strip hotel. And no idea what you're talking about re: walking underground. That's not true for most strip hotels.
But yes, on your overall point, I agree that Las Vegas is a good spot for conventions.
You're right that the strip is fairly long if you look at it from the airport to downtown, but the main part of it where conferences tend to be held is maybe a little over a mile long. So I should have said a 20 minute walk.
There's definitely an indoor walkway connecting the casinos that at times is underground, at least on the southern end. I remember pre-Covid staying at the Luxor (the pyramid looking one) and the conference was 3 or 4 casinos down and I never actually had to go outside. The underground walkway was full of stores and restaurants.
There's definitely an indoor walkway connecting the casinos that at times is underground, at least on the southern end. I remember pre-Covid staying at the Luxor (the pyramid looking one) and the conference was 3 or 4 casinos down and I never actually had to go outside. The underground walkway was full of stores and restaurants.
Most of the hotels there have convention centers. A convention could be anywhere. I've been to conventions in Caesars and Tropicana, which are not close to each other, nor are they that close to LVCC.
Also, good luck walking anywhere outside the strip. I tried to explore a bit like I do other cities - on foot - but sidewalks end a block away from the strip.
Yeah, sometimes it takes 15 minutes to just walk to the casino next door.
It is a full mile from the entrance of the MGM Grand to the convention center. A full _mile_.
I agree that Las Vegas is a good convention city, but please don't suggest that it's easy to get around.
I agree that Las Vegas is a good convention city, but please don't suggest that it's easy to get around.
So a fifteen minute walk?
At least 20 minutes, given that it's through a casino. With you probably carrying a backpack full of conference swag.
And that's from the front entrance -- not counting getting from one hotel to another.
I've gone to dozens of conferences in Las Vegas -- so much so that I know the name and location of the meeting rooms in many of the hotels. I can compare that to attending several dozen conferences elsewhere, from Hanover to San Francisco to Orlando to ohgeez so many other places. Las Vegas has benefits, but the travel issues cause me to ALWAYS stay at the conference hotel whenever possible.
And that's from the front entrance -- not counting getting from one hotel to another.
I've gone to dozens of conferences in Las Vegas -- so much so that I know the name and location of the meeting rooms in many of the hotels. I can compare that to attending several dozen conferences elsewhere, from Hanover to San Francisco to Orlando to ohgeez so many other places. Las Vegas has benefits, but the travel issues cause me to ALWAYS stay at the conference hotel whenever possible.
I've never understood this obsession in the tech industry with holding small to medium sized conferences in major cities.
For something truly humongous you need a Las Vegas, but as a participant I'd much prefer the conference just book a hotel somewhere in the woods, or in a relatively small town.
The usual counterargument is airport connectivity etc.
But in most cases you can simply drive for X amount of time away from the urban center the airport is serving, instead of towards it, and find a perfectly serviceable venue that could host a conference of the same size.
For something truly humongous you need a Las Vegas, but as a participant I'd much prefer the conference just book a hotel somewhere in the woods, or in a relatively small town.
The usual counterargument is airport connectivity etc.
But in most cases you can simply drive for X amount of time away from the urban center the airport is serving, instead of towards it, and find a perfectly serviceable venue that could host a conference of the same size.
You hold a small to mid conference in SF and the plurality of your audience and presenters will not need to pay for a place to stay. That means the quality of your conference will increase significantly.
Place it in another major city and they can easily fly there and find a place to stay there. Being a major city their companies may have subsidiaries there so they may be able to do other company work and add this onto a company trip.
And if you’re an international conference, you should probably limit yourself to something like 5 cities or else everyone from outside the US will likely struggle and not be able to make a real trip outside of it.
Holding conferences anywhere outside major cities does not seem to make any sense to me.
Place it in another major city and they can easily fly there and find a place to stay there. Being a major city their companies may have subsidiaries there so they may be able to do other company work and add this onto a company trip.
And if you’re an international conference, you should probably limit yourself to something like 5 cities or else everyone from outside the US will likely struggle and not be able to make a real trip outside of it.
Holding conferences anywhere outside major cities does not seem to make any sense to me.
I run some events and hear opinions from both sides often. My take on this is there are basically two types of conferences. A more remote location helps people have more fun hanging out with each other, but a big city venue enable more people to attend. Both have value and there are middlegrounds, the choice depends entirely on what you’re looking for.
Most conferences are field-trips/paid-vacation for businesspeople. A large part of the attraction is being in a fun destination.
> I've never understood this obsession in the tech industry with holding small to medium sized conferences in major cities.
It's because there are advantages to major cities: (1) connectivity; (2) incumbent audience; (3) capacity; (4) entertainment;
LV mostly wins on 3 and 4 but loses on 1 and 2. NYC and Chicago win on all 4.
It's because there are advantages to major cities: (1) connectivity; (2) incumbent audience; (3) capacity; (4) entertainment;
LV mostly wins on 3 and 4 but loses on 1 and 2. NYC and Chicago win on all 4.
I used to do trade shows in Orlando and Vegas. Everyone hated Orlando because attendees would bring the entire family, show up for the first half-day, then leave for the parks. The place would be a ghost town by day 3.
At least with Vegas everyone left the families at home. Sure, they would be all hung over every morning but at least they came.
At least with Vegas everyone left the families at home. Sure, they would be all hung over every morning but at least they came.
> you can complete the entire walk underground
What? I’ve been to Vegas dozens of times (conferences and pleasure) and I’ve never seen nor heard of this. What specific casino pairs have underground walks between them (intended for public use, not stormwater or utility tunnels)?
What? I’ve been to Vegas dozens of times (conferences and pleasure) and I’ve never seen nor heard of this. What specific casino pairs have underground walks between them (intended for public use, not stormwater or utility tunnels)?
Mandalay - Luxor - Excalibur is one for example. Can’t remember if it crosses Tropicana into NY or not.
Not really an “underground tunnel” but definitely an indoor connector
EDIT - just looked at streetview, I think they are actually underground.
Not really an “underground tunnel” but definitely an indoor connector
EDIT - just looked at streetview, I think they are actually underground.
There are around 30 casinos (most with hotels) on the strip. If three are connected by tunnels, that’s pretty well short of the original claim: “staying at pretty much any other strip hotel, you can walk to your conference in 10 minutes or less, and you can complete the entire walk underground.”
Well that's just one one specific connection that sprang to mind. Also I think OP was exaggerating a bit generally ("PRETTY MUCH any other strip hotel") and I think the 10 mins is definitely an exaggeration unless you're going to an adjacent hotel.
But are you really saying that you've been to Vegas dozens of times and you didn't know the hotels were connected like this?
But are you really saying that you've been to Vegas dozens of times and you didn't know the hotels were connected like this?
[deleted]
Fully agree.
It's such a pain to Uber back and forth multiple times a day to Moscone (can never get a hotel close by since the prices are beyond insane during large conferences), plus that's about 100 USD of Ubering daily if you do the back and forth twice
It's such a pain to Uber back and forth multiple times a day to Moscone (can never get a hotel close by since the prices are beyond insane during large conferences), plus that's about 100 USD of Ubering daily if you do the back and forth twice
Logistically, it may be optimal. But from my perspective, it creates suboptimal conference experiences.
Large crowds. Everything hotel/conference room smells like smoke (terrible for asthmatics). Lots of distractions that are especially bad for those with addictions.
If I'm at an event for work, I don't want those things. I want an event that keeps me focused and engaged with the material and the connections.
When a conference is held in Vegas, I know it's going to be more of a party than an educational experience, so I tend to write it off simply because of the location choice.
Large crowds. Everything hotel/conference room smells like smoke (terrible for asthmatics). Lots of distractions that are especially bad for those with addictions.
If I'm at an event for work, I don't want those things. I want an event that keeps me focused and engaged with the material and the connections.
When a conference is held in Vegas, I know it's going to be more of a party than an educational experience, so I tend to write it off simply because of the location choice.
> It's a 10 minute Uber to get from the airport to the strip.
if that's your metric for fitness... Milan has recently opened a subway line that goes straight from the Linate airport to the city centre, and you can get a fairly big congress centre (MiCo, Milano Congressi -- big enough to host the AWS Summit) very easily, and with a single subway ticket (which costs 2,20€ at the moment and is also valid for buses, trams and regional treins within the city).
if that's your metric for fitness... Milan has recently opened a subway line that goes straight from the Linate airport to the city centre, and you can get a fairly big congress centre (MiCo, Milano Congressi -- big enough to host the AWS Summit) very easily, and with a single subway ticket (which costs 2,20€ at the moment and is also valid for buses, trams and regional treins within the city).
It's certainly one of two main metrics, the other being that once I'm at the location everything from the conference to the hotel where I'm staying to dinner options are all walkable.
I only attended one conference in SF, VMworld. We were a vendor. We stayed at a really nice hotel ~15 minutes walking distance from Moscone (picked by our sales VP, I'd never pay that much for a hotel ;) ). I had a good experience. There's no shortage of places to eat or sit around there as well. SF does have fairly reasonable transit as well. This was a pretty long time ago though.
They still have smoking though.
Though some of the more informative conferences (pre COVID) that I attended were smaller lower key ones held in Facebook/Google HQ. Most attendees were local anyway. I also enjoy hangouts like B-Sides in smaller venues.
Fully agreed. We threw company offsites in a bunch of different locations around the US and Vegas was by far most affordable and convenient of them all once you got to a certain size.
Went to a conference there a few years ago and couldn't wait to leave quickly enough. No amount of natural and architectural beauty could make up for the sadness and hopelessness I saw among the homeless people on the street there. Somehow it was more sad on the background of fancy mansions on top of the hills and the rich tech companies. I lived in poor rust-belt areas and in developing countries before, but somehow San Francisco seemed sadder and more depressing than those places.
Within my community (Academic) there has also been a bit of a push to hold conferences elsewhere as well. Not because of safety, just because of cost. It's a growing fortune to hold an event in SF (both event space and then hotels or Airbnb for the attendees) and it's increasingly unclear that you're getting value for the money.
In separate news, sf chief economist is saying that everything is great [1].
Why is there such strong denial among city leadership and many individuals?
[1] https://sfist.com/2023/07/06/san-franciscos-chief-economist-...
Why is there such strong denial among city leadership and many individuals?
[1] https://sfist.com/2023/07/06/san-franciscos-chief-economist-...
There seems to have been a popular hatred of the SF area spreading around online for the last few months or so. At least that's when I noticed it. I went out there as a tourist early last month. I never managed to happen across the roving bands of homeless and wasteland of closed businesses I keep hearing about online. The wharf wasn't even overrun as I had seen claimed.
I can't speak to the economics of the area, and it is certainly expensive, but most of the jabber I've seen online seems overblown. I never felt any more at risk there than I do in any other large city.
I can't speak to the economics of the area, and it is certainly expensive, but most of the jabber I've seen online seems overblown. I never felt any more at risk there than I do in any other large city.
> The wharf wasn't even overrun as
> I had seen claimed.
The comments like are part of the problem. So the fact that my neiborhood is going to shit does not matter: The wharf wasn't even overrun as I had seen claimed so be quiet. And please do not think I have anything aginst your opinion. It is 100% correct.
And my question is: why? Why people (leaders and ones who can live near marina) dismiss the problems parents and mortals like me experience? Is it because they think this is some republican's vs democrats issue? Just wondering. Maybe if I understand why we can work on platform to fix this.
> I had seen claimed.
The comments like are part of the problem. So the fact that my neiborhood is going to shit does not matter: The wharf wasn't even overrun as I had seen claimed so be quiet. And please do not think I have anything aginst your opinion. It is 100% correct.
And my question is: why? Why people (leaders and ones who can live near marina) dismiss the problems parents and mortals like me experience? Is it because they think this is some republican's vs democrats issue? Just wondering. Maybe if I understand why we can work on platform to fix this.
Fisherman's Wharf is not San Francisco (half joke). And there are certainly perfectly civilized looking actual neighborhoods (say Cow Hollow, nearby). No homeless, no garbage, minimal poop on the sidewalks, minimal loud bike rides, no constant sirens, etc.
But the conference center, Moscone Center, is in one of the neighborhoods where the action is. And a lot of people live in or visit these areas also.
But the conference center, Moscone Center, is in one of the neighborhoods where the action is. And a lot of people live in or visit these areas also.
I recall a few years back a nationwide study found California's roads ranked worst of all the states. Sacramento's response was a press conference held by a CalDoT spokesperson who announced "California has good roads."
Which would seem to end the discussion.
Which would seem to end the discussion.
this is a repeat of what happened to philly when it went from bustling economic center to a union stronghold that stifled productivity, the politicians today still pretend like nothings changed
This is an extremely basic and superficial take on multiple factors that hollowed out Philadelphia and surrounding area.
> this is a repeat of what happened to philly when it went from bustling economic center to a union stronghold that stifled productivity
Getting bombed by their own police probably didn't help either.
Getting bombed by their own police probably didn't help either.
I'm not from the US and I just learned about the MOVE bombing a couple of years ago. It is one of the most fucked-up events in recent American history. I can't believe that they convinced themselves it was a good idea to drop bombs, some of which was FBI-supplied C4, on a civilian building. The number of people who had to be okay with that from several agencies is astounding.
And no real consequences?
And no real consequences?
> And no real consequences?
Well, if you criticize the police, then they stop prosecuting criminals, and then Fox News talks daily about how your city has become a crime-infested third world hell-hole.
Well, if you criticize the police, then they stop prosecuting criminals, and then Fox News talks daily about how your city has become a crime-infested third world hell-hole.
In much of the SF Bay Area in general, and San Francisco city in particular, I get the impression that the current situation is very deliberate. There are loud minorities arguing about a few things but they are (just) loud minorities. The usual get elected (mostly) and merely pay lip service to these issues (that these other people are having). Otherwise, the plan is on track, things are well enough, and the voting majority merely regrets that we are not in the 90ies anymore. (Not the 80ies - too many freeways then.)
If he said anything otherwise the economic death spiral would become a cliff. He's just doing his job to not make national headlines basically telling people to run to the hills.
He's not right, but he's not in a political position that will economically benefit the people of the city by being candid.
He's not right, but he's not in a political position that will economically benefit the people of the city by being candid.
There’s a lot of (admittedly warranted) shade been thrown on SF here over the past two days.
But putting that aside, I feel sad that remote work + the tech downturn means that employers have slashed all conference travel budgets. Conferences were a great way for me to meet professionals outside of my workplace. Even if it was just an excuse to get drunk and party, I think the industry benefitted as a whole from the networking.
Conferences in 2023 are just sad. The vendor/prospect ratio is way off, and you can really feel the tension on vendors’ faces. Some of these today make RSAC and BlackHat look like stodgy academic conferences.
But putting that aside, I feel sad that remote work + the tech downturn means that employers have slashed all conference travel budgets. Conferences were a great way for me to meet professionals outside of my workplace. Even if it was just an excuse to get drunk and party, I think the industry benefitted as a whole from the networking.
Conferences in 2023 are just sad. The vendor/prospect ratio is way off, and you can really feel the tension on vendors’ faces. Some of these today make RSAC and BlackHat look like stodgy academic conferences.
I was only assaulted once at my last conference there (2023).
As an SF resident, 20 years, I was only stolen from twice, and one of those times was at a restaurant next to Moscone during a convention.
The data is not encouraging
The data is not encouraging
In 15 years, I only had a crackhead try to forcibly open my passenger door at a stoplight one time, so clearly this is an overreaction. Maybe he just needed a ride.
I like the point you’re making here.
SF is relatively safe because you only had one bad criminal experience in 15 years.
Or
SF is relatively unsafe because you had >0 bad criminal experiences in 15 years.
SF is relatively safe because you only had one bad criminal experience in 15 years.
Or
SF is relatively unsafe because you had >0 bad criminal experiences in 15 years.
Violent crime rate per 100k residents.
SF - 715
Orlando - 744
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities...
SF - 715
Orlando - 744
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities...
You would have to compare the reporting rate also. No idea what it might be in Orlando. In San Francisco I expect it's now low: I'm at two physical assaults in San Francisco and there was no point in reporting either (countless verbal but that's not "violent crime" classification). And the recent (news) reporting on robbery makes it doubtful that much of it gets (police) reported either.
Then again what surrounds Moscone is mostly not "violent crime" as per this classification.
Edit: clarified news vs police reporting
Then again what surrounds Moscone is mostly not "violent crime" as per this classification.
Edit: clarified news vs police reporting
But you’re way less likely to get stabbed near the major conference hotels around Disney World.
I was only assaulted once at my last conference there
I was only assaulted once the first time I was in Vancouver, BC.
What's your point?
I was only assaulted once the first time I was in Vancouver, BC.
What's your point?
I used to work near Moscone. I know far too many people who share OPs experience. It's a shit show.
I live near Moscone and walk around there during conference season, never had an issue for several years now.
Okay, and? Are you seriously arguing as someone that lives there that it’s not a shitshow? Wake up - this is not acceptable in any modern society.
And I also lived two blocks away from Moscone for two years so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I understand that anecdata runs both ways, but the tolerance for bullshit here is too damn high, especially how high rent is.
To be fair, I think a big part of anyone's experience living two blocks away from Moscone is... two blocks in which direction :P
We may be four blocks apart which colors our respective experiences quite differently.
We may be four blocks apart which colors our respective experiences quite differently.
> Okay, and?
My primary reason for commenting was simply to add my anecdote. People tend to overvalue anecdotes, and I thought it unfair that my experience was not represented in the anecdotes already in the thread. So I added it. There was no "argument" present except to add perspective.
> Are you seriously arguing as someone that lives there that it’s not a shitshow?
As somebody who lives here, I do have my gripes. Commuter foot traffic has not fully recovered, and that has impacted local businesses and public transit significantly. I don't care too much about the Nordstroms of the world, but the smaller local businesses were hard hit, and that was tough, as many of my favorites went out of business. Homelessness and open drug use seems to have increased a bit, though it looks worse due to the lower foot traffic. It's always been a heartbreaking issue and so it's always been important to me to vote and donate in a way that I believe will help.
But like I said, I've had no issues with actual crime personally. I know that SF's violent crime rates are trending down. I know there's issues with car break-ins and some property crime, but again, nothing that I've experienced. If anything, when I walk outside my apartment, I'm far more worried about getting hit by a driver than I am about being a victim of that sort of crime. (Driving behavior seems to have gotten far more dangerous in the area since the pandemic)
As for the positives: the location is central to all SF public transit, so it's easy to visit all the excellent neighborhoods SF has to offer. Golden Gate Park in particular has improved dramatically since JFK was closed to cars, and it's easy to visit. The new T subway is excellent to get to Chinatown quickly! It's also easy to visit/commute to the greater Bay Area via regional rail. Chase Center and Oracle Park are conveniently located, so there's opportunities to go see the games. Not to mention that the area gets a nice vibe when the Giants are playing a home game. There's convenient access to the highway when you do need to drive. Despite the pandemic-driven small business closures, there have been new local businesses opening up that are real gems, so that's been exciting to see. The new Salesforce Park is absolutely beautiful too. And there's been recent facelifts to a lot of the local streets to make them more bike-friendly, which has been really welcome: it makes getting to the Ferry building (another great local perk) easy.
So I guess what I'm saying is: yes, there are ways that the area has gone downhill. But it started out great, and continues to improve in other ways, mostly ones that don't get flashy HN posts. So no, I don't think it's a shit show.
My primary reason for commenting was simply to add my anecdote. People tend to overvalue anecdotes, and I thought it unfair that my experience was not represented in the anecdotes already in the thread. So I added it. There was no "argument" present except to add perspective.
> Are you seriously arguing as someone that lives there that it’s not a shitshow?
As somebody who lives here, I do have my gripes. Commuter foot traffic has not fully recovered, and that has impacted local businesses and public transit significantly. I don't care too much about the Nordstroms of the world, but the smaller local businesses were hard hit, and that was tough, as many of my favorites went out of business. Homelessness and open drug use seems to have increased a bit, though it looks worse due to the lower foot traffic. It's always been a heartbreaking issue and so it's always been important to me to vote and donate in a way that I believe will help.
But like I said, I've had no issues with actual crime personally. I know that SF's violent crime rates are trending down. I know there's issues with car break-ins and some property crime, but again, nothing that I've experienced. If anything, when I walk outside my apartment, I'm far more worried about getting hit by a driver than I am about being a victim of that sort of crime. (Driving behavior seems to have gotten far more dangerous in the area since the pandemic)
As for the positives: the location is central to all SF public transit, so it's easy to visit all the excellent neighborhoods SF has to offer. Golden Gate Park in particular has improved dramatically since JFK was closed to cars, and it's easy to visit. The new T subway is excellent to get to Chinatown quickly! It's also easy to visit/commute to the greater Bay Area via regional rail. Chase Center and Oracle Park are conveniently located, so there's opportunities to go see the games. Not to mention that the area gets a nice vibe when the Giants are playing a home game. There's convenient access to the highway when you do need to drive. Despite the pandemic-driven small business closures, there have been new local businesses opening up that are real gems, so that's been exciting to see. The new Salesforce Park is absolutely beautiful too. And there's been recent facelifts to a lot of the local streets to make them more bike-friendly, which has been really welcome: it makes getting to the Ferry building (another great local perk) easy.
So I guess what I'm saying is: yes, there are ways that the area has gone downhill. But it started out great, and continues to improve in other ways, mostly ones that don't get flashy HN posts. So no, I don't think it's a shit show.
GP is relating a personal experience at a SF conference, which is what the article is about. It seems like the most on topic thing ever.
Why are you bringing up stuff about Vancouver in Canada?
Why are you bringing up stuff about Vancouver in Canada?
Why are you bringing up stuff about Vancouver in Canada?
Because anecdotes are not useful for anything other than making strangers indignant on the internet.
HN posters used to strive to be better than the comment section of a newspaper web site.
Because anecdotes are not useful for anything other than making strangers indignant on the internet.
HN posters used to strive to be better than the comment section of a newspaper web site.
You want an internet where no one can actually talk about things that happen in their lives. Like we’re all robots and just discuss facts and figures.
Speaking personally, I love hearing about people’s actual experiences instead of a bunch of armchair experts telling other ppl how to live.
Speaking personally, I love hearing about people’s actual experiences instead of a bunch of armchair experts telling other ppl how to live.
"(...) 2028 and beyond trending to be above 90% of the average"
so quite bad decline for foreseeable future.
what a rhetoric gymnastic to mislead it's "ok".
so quite bad decline for foreseeable future.
what a rhetoric gymnastic to mislead it's "ok".
Are these venues booked 5 years in advance?
Much longer than that.
"SF Travel said Red Hat is scheduled for events at Moscone in 2026, 2028, 2030 and 2032" in one of the fine articles.
They also seem to be "not cancelled" long in advance. But that makes sense, if you want a specific venue on a specific date, there is no alternative to early options.
"SF Travel said Red Hat is scheduled for events at Moscone in 2026, 2028, 2030 and 2032" in one of the fine articles.
They also seem to be "not cancelled" long in advance. But that makes sense, if you want a specific venue on a specific date, there is no alternative to early options.
The situation in SF shows how much of a network cities are, with pieces relying on others for support.
Big downtown conferences rely on a network of hotels and retail and restaurants to support them.
The hotels also rely on the retail and restaurants for support.
The retail and restaurants rely on constant foot traffic.
SF made the subtle mistake of over building commercial office in its downtown, which meant that much of the foot traffic was office workers, and due to circumstance, the bias of office workers was heavily oriented toward the tech sector.
As the pandemic hit and office pivoted toward WFH, suddenly all this foot traffic, a requirement for a healthy downtown evaporated.
Unfortunately for SF, the bias toward tech is hurting its recovery, as tech in particular seems more likely to let the pandemic WFH status quo continue.
Now we're starting to see the network of the healthy downtown unravel as things become untenable for those who rely on foot traffic, and those higher up the chain that require the amenities that rely on foot traffic. No surprise to see conferences start to pull out.
In contrast other cities with less tech workers have seen more of a return to the office, and so their downtown life has picked up. As well with cities with more residential downtown, as there's a more resiliant foot traffic mix, we've seen them more easily rebound as well.
Big downtown conferences rely on a network of hotels and retail and restaurants to support them.
The hotels also rely on the retail and restaurants for support.
The retail and restaurants rely on constant foot traffic.
SF made the subtle mistake of over building commercial office in its downtown, which meant that much of the foot traffic was office workers, and due to circumstance, the bias of office workers was heavily oriented toward the tech sector.
As the pandemic hit and office pivoted toward WFH, suddenly all this foot traffic, a requirement for a healthy downtown evaporated.
Unfortunately for SF, the bias toward tech is hurting its recovery, as tech in particular seems more likely to let the pandemic WFH status quo continue.
Now we're starting to see the network of the healthy downtown unravel as things become untenable for those who rely on foot traffic, and those higher up the chain that require the amenities that rely on foot traffic. No surprise to see conferences start to pull out.
In contrast other cities with less tech workers have seen more of a return to the office, and so their downtown life has picked up. As well with cities with more residential downtown, as there's a more resiliant foot traffic mix, we've seen them more easily rebound as well.
There’s way too much hindsight bias here though. SF office vacancies were at an all time low in 2019. I knew many founders who were struggling to find office space.
yeah you can't plan for a once a century pandemic.
I think where SF went wrong though was over emphasis of commercial in a single district. They should have known better, but likely didn't want to touch existing residential neighbourhoods at all, so here we are.
I think where SF went wrong though was over emphasis of commercial in a single district. They should have known better, but likely didn't want to touch existing residential neighbourhoods at all, so here we are.
Have conferences outlived their usefulness? Is it worth the upheaval in routine to travel, stay in hotels, eat overpriced restaurant food, and tolerate the unsavory street environment of most big cities, to sit and listen to a bunch of companies and authors promote their latest products and books?
I'm scheduled to go to a conference in October and seriously thinking about canceling, there's really nothing attractive about the idea in any way.
I'm scheduled to go to a conference in October and seriously thinking about canceling, there's really nothing attractive about the idea in any way.
I think the conference format is in need of an overhaul. The only real value in their current state is networking and lead gen for vendors. Everything else is just "Blog Posts, LIVE!"
Remote sessions with small gatherings in major cities? Transition to a YouTube channel with consistent weekly live stream talks? A "tour of talks" with multiple city stops? Monthly themed topic events?
The existing format has become stale and ineffective. Would love to discuss alternatives with others.
Remote sessions with small gatherings in major cities? Transition to a YouTube channel with consistent weekly live stream talks? A "tour of talks" with multiple city stops? Monthly themed topic events?
The existing format has become stale and ineffective. Would love to discuss alternatives with others.
I can't speak for tech conferences as I haven't been to one in a very long time. I was recently at the Psychedelic Science conference in Denver and it absolutely was useful. There were just too many people from too many different fields that I never would've had a thought to look up or reach out to, that I was constantly acquainting with myself. A great experience imo.
The after party scene at the Psychedelic Science conference must be fun.
Without the fixed cadence of a conference how much technical content do you think will be produced? There are already so few bloggers that the remainder will be heavily skewed towards the self promotion bent.
> SF Travel said Red Hat is scheduled for events at Moscone in 2026, 2028, 2030 and 2032.
Maybe they'll cancel those too, but it's worth noting that Red Hat and Meta have not said anything like "we're done with San Francisco", they just both backed out of a conference booking at around the same time. Could be a coincidence. We don't know. Feels premature to draw conclusions though.
Maybe they'll cancel those too, but it's worth noting that Red Hat and Meta have not said anything like "we're done with San Francisco", they just both backed out of a conference booking at around the same time. Could be a coincidence. We don't know. Feels premature to draw conclusions though.
In the 70s, NYC was a mess. Crime, drugs, sexual stuff in public, etc.
The people got fed up with it and voted for different city government. Cops got more leeway, the city cleaned up. NYC again became a good tourist destination.
I think SF could do the same thing. At least until the homeless & crime crowd outnumber the others. Only then would all hope be lost.
I think SF could do the same thing. At least until the homeless & crime crowd outnumber the others. Only then would all hope be lost.
Anyone know the reasons for the cancellations?
I didn't see that in the article.
I didn't see that in the article.
Interestingly, they danced around it. It's one thing for conference organizers to not say it in case they want to come back, but normally local news will try to put it in a broader context.
Meta cancelled altogether, so that is probably just a cost-saving measure (Meta isn't doing too well rn).
RedHat moved their conferences to other states in the US, but still plan on holding future conferences in SF. Which, to me, also sounds like a temporary cost saving measure. I highly doubt it's because of safety or homelessness, if that was the case then they wouldn't be commiting to hold future conferences in SF.
RedHat moved their conferences to other states in the US, but still plan on holding future conferences in SF. Which, to me, also sounds like a temporary cost saving measure. I highly doubt it's because of safety or homelessness, if that was the case then they wouldn't be commiting to hold future conferences in SF.
What makes you say Meta isn’t doing well now? 2022 was rough on them, but 2023 seems to be treating them well.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/META/
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/META/
I would think at this scale of conference organization, the decisions around things to do in 2023 are being made deep in 2022. So they probably decided to cancel 2023 in the midst of the big layoffs and cost cutting of 2022.
> Meta cancelled altogether, so that is probably just a cost-saving measure (Meta isn't doing too well rn).
Poorly informed comments like this by otherwise intwlligent people hurt hn. Meta is minting money right now.
Poorly informed comments like this by otherwise intwlligent people hurt hn. Meta is minting money right now.
Homelessness. Theft. Human poop everywhere, safety.
It wouldn't surprise me if this were the real reason. It really jumps out at you as a visitor. I mean literally last time I was there, a dude pooped in front of me. Another person ran into a restaurant to grab my leftovers. Numerous people were cursing at their imaginary enemy. All in areas of town where visitors might be quite common.
It's really quite bad and it's an impression someone ought to do something about.
It's really quite bad and it's an impression someone ought to do something about.
I found used condoms on and around my car not once but twice, and that was enough for me…
Just make sure not to wear a technicolor dreamcoat and remember they won't refund your deposit.
West Coast city stuff then. It's everywhere.
I'm convinced there isn't any kind of immediate solution to these problems. Not that we should give up on mental health and addictions treatment. I just think the solution is way broader. Reduce income inequality, improve schools, keep up the drug treatment so the children of people with drug problems stand a chance, better research about when opiate prescriptions are appropriate (like 24 hours post surgery at most then just acetaminophen), universal healthcare and childcare to stop people falling into poverty... Then wait a good 20 years for those things to ripple through society.
I know HN loves solutioning and grand projects, but at least consider that this isn't always the way. Consider the article from a couple of days ago about letting ACL tears heal on their own rather than doing surgery. You cannot engineer your way out of everything and often it makes things worse.
I'm convinced there isn't any kind of immediate solution to these problems. Not that we should give up on mental health and addictions treatment. I just think the solution is way broader. Reduce income inequality, improve schools, keep up the drug treatment so the children of people with drug problems stand a chance, better research about when opiate prescriptions are appropriate (like 24 hours post surgery at most then just acetaminophen), universal healthcare and childcare to stop people falling into poverty... Then wait a good 20 years for those things to ripple through society.
I know HN loves solutioning and grand projects, but at least consider that this isn't always the way. Consider the article from a couple of days ago about letting ACL tears heal on their own rather than doing surgery. You cannot engineer your way out of everything and often it makes things worse.
> keep up the drug treatment so the children of people with drug problems stand a chance
The current "treatment" is to hand out free drug paraphernalia and what has been proposed in cities like SF and Seattle are taxpayer-funded "safe injection sites" fully staffed with nurses. An analogy would be to try and cure a rat problem by sitting on a park bench tossing them pieces of bread. It's irrational and it doesn't work.
The current "treatment" is to hand out free drug paraphernalia and what has been proposed in cities like SF and Seattle are taxpayer-funded "safe injection sites" fully staffed with nurses. An analogy would be to try and cure a rat problem by sitting on a park bench tossing them pieces of bread. It's irrational and it doesn't work.
The obvious solution with rats is just to kill them, but people aren't rats, so the analogy doesn't work. Safe injection sites are intended to stop people from dying and reduce the spread of communicable diseases, because people are worth trying to save.
The problem being inherently human, you have to come up with solutions that at the very least treat them as such.
The problem being inherently human, you have to come up with solutions that at the very least treat them as such.
This approach sounds a lot like treating a heart attack with diet and exercise. Sure diet and exercise are great, but they’re not what’s indicated while you’re keeling over. First fix the acute problem and then look work on reducing recurrence afterwards.
And of course there is an immediate solution: remove the people violating the social contract from society at large. It’s up to the people of San Francisco to either find a politically palatable way to do that or continue to live in a kind of fecal anarchy.
Edit: in case it’s not clear I’m not euphemistically suggesting incarceration as the only option, although it is one. Some kind of supervised halfway house SRO type thing would be another option among many. Drug rehabilitation also.
And of course there is an immediate solution: remove the people violating the social contract from society at large. It’s up to the people of San Francisco to either find a politically palatable way to do that or continue to live in a kind of fecal anarchy.
Edit: in case it’s not clear I’m not euphemistically suggesting incarceration as the only option, although it is one. Some kind of supervised halfway house SRO type thing would be another option among many. Drug rehabilitation also.
That's just it, I don't think you can do that. The equivalent of acute treatment for an MI in homelessness would be coralling them elsewhere or removing them from the city and replacing them with known good humans harvested from elsewhere.
Probably how NYC recovered from the 70s and 80s is instructive, or the decades long overall decline in violent crime in major cities. SF for all the crap it gets is still near an all time low in violent crime. Was it acute treatments, or did general conditions just change?
Probably how NYC recovered from the 70s and 80s is instructive, or the decades long overall decline in violent crime in major cities. SF for all the crap it gets is still near an all time low in violent crime. Was it acute treatments, or did general conditions just change?
San Francisco also needs to make housing a lot cheaper by building way more of it, including marginal options like SROs. So much of the disorder you see on streets of wouldn't be happening in public if housing wasn't insanely expensive to the point of people needing a good steady job lest they become homeless.
Not heart attacks, but the issue with CPR is that outcomes after it are really bad. You can do interventions, but the five-year outlook isn't good for ~90% of people needing CPR.
In other words, it's a lot of work to get the a homeless addict to be a net-neutral for society, if that's even possible.
In other words, it's a lot of work to get the a homeless addict to be a net-neutral for society, if that's even possible.
In lieu of Red Hat and Meta saying why they cancelled, it would be pure speculation.
More expensive and a pain to go to the conference. I guess that's a big part of why they're attempting to extend CalTrain to Salesforce Transit Center at a ridiculous per-mile cost.
To clarify, this is speculation, neither the articles nor the companies have said anything of this sort.
RedHat have moved their conferences to Florida, so I highly doubt cost is a big reason. Florida itself is much cheaper, but a decent chunk of RedHat employees live in Cali, so flying them across the continent is not that much cheaper.
EDIT: I was wrong, RedHat is mostly east coast, I'm sorry.
RedHat have moved their conferences to Florida, so I highly doubt cost is a big reason. Florida itself is much cheaper, but a decent chunk of RedHat employees live in Cali, so flying them across the continent is not that much cheaper.
EDIT: I was wrong, RedHat is mostly east coast, I'm sorry.
Red Hat are headquartered in North Carolina, with the engineering HQ in Massachusetts. There's way more workers on the east coast than the west.
Denial. No one's going to be honest about not having events there.
Not denial from me, I was thinking of how the city might be trying to make it so people can get there more comfortably, which includes less chance of experiencing some of SF's problems. I don't think it's a very good plan because it's expensive and far into the future, but I think it's a part of the misguided approach the city is taking.
I've actually walked from the CalTrain station to Moscone. It's not all that far.
(of course, your hotel is probably farther.)
(of course, your hotel is probably farther.)
So have I, haha.
Except I've never been to Moscone. Just past it, dozens of times.
I like Chaat Corner. That's more of a landmark for me than Moscone.
Edit: wow, I've heard your voice before. You did an interview w/ Nassim Nicholas Taleb that I watched.
Except I've never been to Moscone. Just past it, dozens of times.
I like Chaat Corner. That's more of a landmark for me than Moscone.
Edit: wow, I've heard your voice before. You did an interview w/ Nassim Nicholas Taleb that I watched.
I hosted him. It wasn't an interview; in fact, he's the only person I hosted where I showed him the intro beforehand (which was his own writing)! Didn't want to mess around with this guy /s
Haha, cool. I would like to meet him one day. And I have some more Google Author Talks to watch.
Hasn't RedHat been headquartered in Raleigh since its inception? I knew a few people who moved out there for RedHat from the Bay Area.
Moscone isn't that much closer to the Salesforce bus station than to Caltrain. It's about the same time once you add in the extra time to wind through the tunnel and get out of the terminal.
The issue with Caltrain is it ends about 1.5 miles short of downtown.
The issue with Caltrain is it ends about 1.5 miles short of downtown.
Nobody's going to take Caltrain from the airport to Moscone. Spending a few billion dollars on a bus station is ridiculous but it's orthogonal to the issue at hand.
Moscone now has a subway stop, which may help with downtown connectivity (but I won't hold my breath).
Moscone now has a subway stop, which may help with downtown connectivity (but I won't hold my breath).
Nobody? How about people staying at an airport hotel? And you realize that conference attendees have to fight traffic if they aren't staying at a hotel downtown, because conferences start at about the same time a regular work day starts.
Have you ever made the BART–Caltrain connection? Nobody in their right mind is going to do that if their final destination is Moscone.
It takes the better part of half a mile to get from platform to platform, and originally I thought the connections weren't timed. Turns out it's worse. BART refuses to do timed connections on the weekends, and on the weekdays they pretend to time it. Connections from Caltrain to BART are 15–20 minutes. Going from BART (e.g. the airport) to Caltrain is not "timed" and is a 20–30 minute transfer. Icing on that shit cake is that BART doesn't run when the first few and last few Caltrain runs are made. So, yeah, nobody will do that. There's no reason to unless BART isn't running, in which case you're reliant on taxis/ubers or one of the scarce SamTrans buses that was gutted to pay for BART to get to the nearest Caltrain station (Millbrae).
If they're coming from the airport they'll take BART to Powell and walk to Moscone or do the ridiculous transfer at Powell to the subway to nowhere and get off at Moscone station.
It's all moot though as BART's not even stopping at Millbrae today because reasons.
It takes the better part of half a mile to get from platform to platform, and originally I thought the connections weren't timed. Turns out it's worse. BART refuses to do timed connections on the weekends, and on the weekdays they pretend to time it. Connections from Caltrain to BART are 15–20 minutes. Going from BART (e.g. the airport) to Caltrain is not "timed" and is a 20–30 minute transfer. Icing on that shit cake is that BART doesn't run when the first few and last few Caltrain runs are made. So, yeah, nobody will do that. There's no reason to unless BART isn't running, in which case you're reliant on taxis/ubers or one of the scarce SamTrans buses that was gutted to pay for BART to get to the nearest Caltrain station (Millbrae).
If they're coming from the airport they'll take BART to Powell and walk to Moscone or do the ridiculous transfer at Powell to the subway to nowhere and get off at Moscone station.
It's all moot though as BART's not even stopping at Millbrae today because reasons.
I've made that transfer. It sucks but it's still a relevant option, especially for people who live next to a CalTrain station. A CalTrain that goes downtown would likely get them to make it easier for airport passengers to get to Millbrae. Because of that a CalTrain that goes downtown would be worth a lot, but still a tiny fraction of the proposed budget. I hope it doesn't happen if it's going to cost that much.
The conference attendees when at the airport have their luggage. The airport hotel is a more realistic scenario. Or a CalTrain accessible hotel. And some of the airport hotels have good access both to CalTrain and the airport. I think more would if this extension were made.
The conference attendees when at the airport have their luggage. The airport hotel is a more realistic scenario. Or a CalTrain accessible hotel. And some of the airport hotels have good access both to CalTrain and the airport. I think more would if this extension were made.
people who live next to a CalTrain station
Or a CalTrain accessible hotel
Even if there were shuttles to Caltrain, it's a much shorter walk from Powell at 4th and Market (or the Moscone station at 4th and Folsom) than 4th and King or the transbay terminal.
You said nobody in your original reply to me and reiterated it in your other two replies. Are you sure that the vast majority of the conference attendees from other states fit the same profile of staying in a hotel downtown? Maybe they are but I would like to see some data.
I said nobody is going to take Caltrain from the airport to Moscone. In fact I looked at three hotels near SFO and they all offer shuttles to SFO but not to Millbrae. Who's talking about downtown? I have no idea what you're on about.
That's because they're right at the airport. Look at the hotels with airport in their name that are within a few miles of the airport. A lot of them are closer to a CalTrain station then the airport.
https://www.hilton.com/en/hotels/sfosoes-embassy-suites-san-...
Please note that we offer a fee-based shuttle to San Francisco International
Airport SFO, from 5AM-10AM and 5PM-10PM. Please reserve the shuttle using
the link below.
But aren’t most conference attendees from out of town?
My guess is either shrinking demand for the conference (vs the cost) and or location desirability.
My guess is either shrinking demand for the conference (vs the cost) and or location desirability.
I'd have to see a map of where conference attendees stay. I assumed some would be commuting every day just like residents. I also could be wrong but I thought a lot would stay in hotels near the airport, especially those who live out of town but work for companies that have offices in South Bay and are going to visit the offices while they're in the Bay Area.
One option for commuting conferencegoers is to take transit into the conference to beat the traffic and take Uber or Lyft back after having dinner near the conference, when there is less traffic. Except some would take it on the way back as well because the traffic got them to familiarize themselves with public transit.
One option for commuting conferencegoers is to take transit into the conference to beat the traffic and take Uber or Lyft back after having dinner near the conference, when there is less traffic. Except some would take it on the way back as well because the traffic got them to familiarize themselves with public transit.
[deleted]
Conferences are held downtown.
For those curious
> Meta and Red Hat, called off 2024 conferences that were set to be held at San Francisco's Moscone Center
> Meta and Red Hat, called off 2024 conferences that were set to be held at San Francisco's Moscone Center
Also mentioned: Red Hat is moving the 2024 Red Hat Summit to Denver and the 2025 event to Orlando. Pre-covid they always alternated between SF and Boston (even years in SF, odd years in Boston), so I guess they’re moving away from that.
The article does not say whether Meta is moving its conference elsewhere or just canceling it.
The article does not say whether Meta is moving its conference elsewhere or just canceling it.
Nature is healing.
Flatcircle(1)
While I'm not ordinarily a fan of Las Vegas, it is hands down the absolute best place for conferences, logistically. It's a 10 minute Uber to get from the airport to the strip. Tons of hotels on the strip. If the conference is at one strip hotel and you are staying at pretty much any other strip hotel, you can walk to your conference in 10 minutes or less, and you can complete the entire walk underground. Tons of food, cafes, etc. along the walk. Entertainment venues everywhere (obviously, it's Vegas).
SF/Moscone is the absolute worst for getting around. The other cities are ok-ish but only if you're staying at the hotel where the conference is being held.