UPS driver pay and benefits deal in US to be worth $170k a year, firm says(bbc.co.uk)
bbc.co.uk
UPS driver pay and benefits deal in US to be worth $170k a year, firm says
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66445496
54 comments
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-08/ups-jobs-...
https://archive.li/2023.08.09-022550/https://www.bloomberg.c...
“Everyone Wants to Work at UPS After Teamsters Deal: Indeed saw a more than 50% increase in ‘UPS’ searches”
https://archive.li/2023.08.09-022550/https://www.bloomberg.c...
“Everyone Wants to Work at UPS After Teamsters Deal: Indeed saw a more than 50% increase in ‘UPS’ searches”
Can anyone explain how wages can possibly be this high? Why doesn't everyone on a low income want to become a UPS driver?
Context: I was a UPS drivers helper during college during the holiday seasons. This job entailed running large amounts of holiday volume packages to houses from the truck.
I speculate that this is because the role of driver is a high-trust and critical operations role. This person has to reliably execute package delivery every single day regardless of the highly variable problem spaces that emerge. Without the last X mile capacity that a driver brings, all of the infra at UPS doesn’t provide value. For example a driver wakes up early every day, rain or shine (or sleet), and is accountable for making sure a truck is loaded correctly at the dock, and every package on the route is delivered. This can include packages of diamonds insured for 10’s of thousands, to hundred plus pound boxes.
I only rode shotgun for a few weeks a year and it was hard work. From that POV it a seems like a fair wage for the role.
I speculate that this is because the role of driver is a high-trust and critical operations role. This person has to reliably execute package delivery every single day regardless of the highly variable problem spaces that emerge. Without the last X mile capacity that a driver brings, all of the infra at UPS doesn’t provide value. For example a driver wakes up early every day, rain or shine (or sleet), and is accountable for making sure a truck is loaded correctly at the dock, and every package on the route is delivered. This can include packages of diamonds insured for 10’s of thousands, to hundred plus pound boxes.
I only rode shotgun for a few weeks a year and it was hard work. From that POV it a seems like a fair wage for the role.
Drivers with consistent routes doing pickups for businesses end up being the most important customer facing people for the delivery company.
You can call your UPS rep and get results in a month (or your FedEx rep and get results in a year IME lol) but your daily driver can make an extra pickup or make a timeframe adjustment same-day if you ask and it’s doable.
You can call your UPS rep and get results in a month (or your FedEx rep and get results in a year IME lol) but your daily driver can make an extra pickup or make a timeframe adjustment same-day if you ask and it’s doable.
It’s a hard work, yes. And people should get paid for hard work.
But you’re a delivery man, that’s it. In each job you need to wake up in the morning and have responsibility to do your work well. And very often you’re handling equipment/goods that exceed not only your monthly salary but your lifetime income.
But you’re a delivery man, that’s it. In each job you need to wake up in the morning and have responsibility to do your work well. And very often you’re handling equipment/goods that exceed not only your monthly salary but your lifetime income.
That's exactly why they should be are so highly paid. You don't want your delivery man to be texting their friends that they just dropped off a high value package somewhere.
They should be highly paid, or they'll conspire to commit felonies?
That's not a reason to be highly paid (and note - nowhere I argue how much they should be paid).
That's not a reason to be highly paid (and note - nowhere I argue how much they should be paid).
What is "that's it" supposed to mean here?
Delivery, aka logistics, is one of the most important jobs in our economy.
Twitter demonstrates that companies and systems could survive for months without programmers. As the early days of the COVID lockdowns demonstrated, society would collapse within days or weeks without deliverymen.
Delivery, aka logistics, is one of the most important jobs in our economy.
Twitter demonstrates that companies and systems could survive for months without programmers. As the early days of the COVID lockdowns demonstrated, society would collapse within days or weeks without deliverymen.
> What is "that's it" supposed to mean here?
It means he thinks people should be paid more than UPS drivers to sit in a fabric box all day developing fart apps for iPhone.
Or WFH whilst waiting for said delivery man to show up with the box from Amazon with more unnecessary Chinese garbage he didn't need.
All kidding aside, I've experienced just about every delivery company and UPS is the only one where the drivers take their jobs seriously. In comparison, I once caught FedEx performing an Ace Ventura-style penalty kick of my package onto the porch.
It means he thinks people should be paid more than UPS drivers to sit in a fabric box all day developing fart apps for iPhone.
Or WFH whilst waiting for said delivery man to show up with the box from Amazon with more unnecessary Chinese garbage he didn't need.
All kidding aside, I've experienced just about every delivery company and UPS is the only one where the drivers take their jobs seriously. In comparison, I once caught FedEx performing an Ace Ventura-style penalty kick of my package onto the porch.
> It means he thinks people should be paid more than UPS drivers to sit in a fabric box all day developing fart apps for iPhone.
Yes, there're only 2 types of jobs in the world - app developer and UPS driver.
Your comment is border-line insulting to people doing other jobs, that are often much harder and dangerous, but pay much less.
Yes, there're only 2 types of jobs in the world - app developer and UPS driver.
Your comment is border-line insulting to people doing other jobs, that are often much harder and dangerous, but pay much less.
It was an exaggeration, but he described the poster’s sentiment perfectly.
I think the theory is that “importance” shouldn’t really drive salary. The ability to find someone to do the same job for less money should.
If the industry cannot reliably deliver packages with proper security, safety, reliability, humanity, etc. without this level of compensation, then it’s the right number.
The interesting thing about this salary is that if you can actually earn that much without an expensive education or hard-to-attain skills, then there would likely be a lot of people saying, “heck I’ll do that for less! It sure beats massive debt and this shitty job I have.” And salaries would correct… unless there’s more to this story, or a union stops the system from correcting.
If the industry cannot reliably deliver packages with proper security, safety, reliability, humanity, etc. without this level of compensation, then it’s the right number.
The interesting thing about this salary is that if you can actually earn that much without an expensive education or hard-to-attain skills, then there would likely be a lot of people saying, “heck I’ll do that for less! It sure beats massive debt and this shitty job I have.” And salaries would correct… unless there’s more to this story, or a union stops the system from correcting.
>a union stops the system from correcting.
Ah yes, because the market is perfect but for those pesky unions and government interventions. The economy totally prices things efficiently on its own— managers and executives would never abuse their power to extract more than their fair share. Must be nice to live in that simplistic Econ 101 fantasy camp.
Ah yes, because the market is perfect but for those pesky unions and government interventions. The economy totally prices things efficiently on its own— managers and executives would never abuse their power to extract more than their fair share. Must be nice to live in that simplistic Econ 101 fantasy camp.
"That's it" it suppose to mean, that it's a hard work, but there's tons of hard jobs around, that are essential. And the requirements that op presented of having to wake up in the morning, check that your work place is ready to work and then do your work - if someone is impressed by that, I'd say, they it's first time they face an "honest" day of work.
Coal mine? Farmer? Factory worker? Construction worker? Oil rig workers?
Coal mine? Farmer? Factory worker? Construction worker? Oil rig workers?
How much does this differ from the responsibilities of armored car drivers, who make $17/hour?
Same reason pizza delivery (a fairly dangerous job, more likely to die on the job than a cop) makes less - It’s not as hard to train and retain armored car drivers. Armored cars make routine deliveries of exactly one product to a fixed number of regular commercial clients. General package delivery is pretty much the opposite of all of that.
They should make more too.
Regarding the "high trust" part, they are tracked in real-time with GPS including when they scan deliveries.
The tracking part is more telemetry for their delivery optimization algorithm. (Think the classic traveling salesman problem.) For example, UPS drivers are generally prohibited from making left turns because it's considered less efficient to do so.
UPS drivers are personally held responsible for packages placed in their custody.
UPS drivers are personally held responsible for packages placed in their custody.
> For example, UPS drivers are generally prohibited from making left turns because it's considered less efficient to do so.
No, they aren’t “generally prohibited from making left turns” - that’s a misrepresentation. The truth is that their routing-engine is optimised for reducing idle time waiting at lights which meant that _consequently_ their navigation+routing instructions given to the driver will avoid left-turns. That’s all it is.
(When the media references this they make it sound like eliminating left-turns is the objective, rather than the end-result)
No, they aren’t “generally prohibited from making left turns” - that’s a misrepresentation. The truth is that their routing-engine is optimised for reducing idle time waiting at lights which meant that _consequently_ their navigation+routing instructions given to the driver will avoid left-turns. That’s all it is.
(When the media references this they make it sound like eliminating left-turns is the objective, rather than the end-result)
It's definitely used for checking and evidence of delivery. For instance, GPS coordinates are logged when parcels is marked as delivered so that know exactly where this happened, not only when.
It may not be that high everywhere, not sure if it's normalized nationally. Also, the base pay is probably something around 90-120k, with the rest being medical coverage (possibly including family) as well as 401k matching, etc. Often over-valued and maybe including the employer-side taxes as well.
It's also grueling work, you are on pretty tight timing, and relentlessly tracked. You pretty much need to hustle all day, and have really good bladder control. Most people are not willing to actually work that hard, physically. At least they have A/C in the trucks now, here in Phoenix I couldn't imagine working that job through June, July and August (top 3 reasons not to live here).
It's also grueling work, you are on pretty tight timing, and relentlessly tracked. You pretty much need to hustle all day, and have really good bladder control. Most people are not willing to actually work that hard, physically. At least they have A/C in the trucks now, here in Phoenix I couldn't imagine working that job through June, July and August (top 3 reasons not to live here).
The headline is misleading. It's not actually $170k salary. It's a base salary of something like $95k and then various (mostly standard) benefits that they mark up the value of to claim it as being worth the remainder.
That still seems really high. I don't believe it.
https://www.jobs-ups.com/category/delivery-driver-jobs/1187/...
All these delivery driver jobs are $21-28/hr that I could see.
I don't know how you can make anywhere near $95,000/yr unless you're getting paid mega overtime. If they are using overtime stats to prop up their average pay, that's horse shit.
https://www.jobs-ups.com/category/delivery-driver-jobs/1187/...
All these delivery driver jobs are $21-28/hr that I could see.
I don't know how you can make anywhere near $95,000/yr unless you're getting paid mega overtime. If they are using overtime stats to prop up their average pay, that's horse shit.
Overtime does seem to be part of it:
"drivers earned about $95,000 in pay annually on average or about $42 an hour"
That's 2261 hours per year, or 43.5 hours per week. More when you take into account that most people get vacation time and holidays.
Still, I don't think that's the issue you're noticing. The average is twice the starting salary. So it sounds as if they ramp up salary fairly quickly, and/or have very long careers.
"drivers earned about $95,000 in pay annually on average or about $42 an hour"
That's 2261 hours per year, or 43.5 hours per week. More when you take into account that most people get vacation time and holidays.
Still, I don't think that's the issue you're noticing. The average is twice the starting salary. So it sounds as if they ramp up salary fairly quickly, and/or have very long careers.
It’s skilled labor and it likely takes training and years of service to get to this level of pay, which, given that its inclusive of the provided health care benefits, is just enough to provide what used to be considered a normal middle class standard of living. We should aspire for basically every job in America to work like this.
We should aspire, in general, to put away forever the ridiculous term "unskilled labor."
It’s a great path to a middle class existence.
Before you get to drive, you toil in a hot warehouse for several years. If you have the work ethic and stick to it, you achieve a good career.
How can wages be that high? It’s what good workers demand for good work. Everyone bitches about the problems they have when they get shipments from herky jerky companies like Laser. They pay peanuts and get what they pay for.
Before you get to drive, you toil in a hot warehouse for several years. If you have the work ethic and stick to it, you achieve a good career.
How can wages be that high? It’s what good workers demand for good work. Everyone bitches about the problems they have when they get shipments from herky jerky companies like Laser. They pay peanuts and get what they pay for.
I think people don’t understand that you can’t just apply for this job. It’s always been an in-demand job and you’re right, you have to put many years in doing hard work in the warehouses first. It’s a massive filter function not unlike STEM degrees in terms of many that start don’t make it.
Becoming a driver is like joining an elite fraternity.
Becoming a driver is like joining an elite fraternity.
> Everyone bitches about the problems they have when they get shipments from herky jerky companies like Laser
Let's not forget OnTrac, where I've had them show up at nearly 11 PM and chuck a package out the driver's side window into the bushes. I thought I was about to be the victim of a drive-by. In a way it was.
Let's not forget OnTrac, where I've had them show up at nearly 11 PM and chuck a package out the driver's side window into the bushes. I thought I was about to be the victim of a drive-by. In a way it was.
Re: path to the middle class and the warehouse-to-driver gauntlet, the New Yorker had a good piece on the looming strike back in January.[1]
[1]: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/16/can-ups-still-...
[1]: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/16/can-ups-still-...
It’s usually pretty hard to get an ups driver position. Most people work the warehouse for years before they get a shot, and that is incredibly hard work that doesn’t pay as well.
Because it’s actually hard (both physically and mentally) labor. Unlike what most of the keyboard jockeys on this forum (including myself) are doing. Not to mention the misleading headlines as others have alluded to.
Brutal and critical job that not everyone is physically capable of doing
Good. Thats a tough job that society depends on. I have a few friends who do it and they’re proud of the work and that they can support their families.
> Shipping giant UPS has warned its profits will be lower than planned this year [...]
So they're still making a profit, then.
So they're still making a profit, then.
This is the second[0] headline inaccurately claiming $170k in pay when it is actually expected average pay (including overtime) plus healthcare and other benefits. The headline from TFA is:
"UPS driver pay and benefits deal in US to be worth $170,000 a year, firm says"
Which, unless I've counted incorrectly, should fit in HN's headline character limits.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37054416
"UPS driver pay and benefits deal in US to be worth $170,000 a year, firm says"
Which, unless I've counted incorrectly, should fit in HN's headline character limits.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37054416
It says “pay package” which seems to fit pay + benefits.
Looks accurate to me.
Looks accurate to me.
Note that benefits will include insurance as well, so realistically base salary might be around $80-90k with the option of additional overtime, so not shabby by blue collar standards, but definetly not as comfy as similarly compensated desk jobs.
Even family health insurance typically costs 20k-30k in total (employer included) premiums a year. Life, dental, and vision are not even worth mentioning in comparison. This sounds like it's over the six figure mark to me. Perhaps some of this is generous retirement benefits?
The article also says:
> Prior to the new deal, the company said drivers earned about $95,000 in pay annually on average or about $42 an hour, and another $50,000 in benefits.
So they're definitely breaking 100k now.
The article also says:
> Prior to the new deal, the company said drivers earned about $95,000 in pay annually on average or about $42 an hour, and another $50,000 in benefits.
So they're definitely breaking 100k now.
So it's just straight up a normal middle class income. Except wage suppression and expectation-lowering propaganda has been so effective it now feels like a lot.
Propaganda, I will point out, like exactly like this headline. "170k!" you are encouraged to think. "I don't even make that much, and I deserve it. This affects me negatively somehow" you are expected to believe.
Good propaganda is as true as possible, ideally unimpeachably so.
Propaganda, I will point out, like exactly like this headline. "170k!" you are encouraged to think. "I don't even make that much, and I deserve it. This affects me negatively somehow" you are expected to believe.
Good propaganda is as true as possible, ideally unimpeachably so.
no, required unpaid overtime due to route scheduling. It has been that way for almost 20 years now. 50 years ago that was a decent job with good pay.
UPS pays overtime. The article talks about how this 170k includes average overtime.
You think the teamsters are letting people work unpaid overtime?
You think the teamsters are letting people work unpaid overtime?
I think you should stop the driver one day, and ask them as a human what they do, and how well paid it is. You tell me.
I just did that and they said “well.”
I also know quite a few people who drive for UPS and every one of them says it’s hard work but they’re paid well. And they have stories of “paying their dues” as a stocker or whatever before they got in the union. Also most of them seek out overtime because there’s multipliers and whatnot.
You may be confusing UPS drivers with FedEx and others who aren’t unionized and are contractors.
I think UPS is basically the best place to work as a driver.
I also know quite a few people who drive for UPS and every one of them says it’s hard work but they’re paid well. And they have stories of “paying their dues” as a stocker or whatever before they got in the union. Also most of them seek out overtime because there’s multipliers and whatnot.
You may be confusing UPS drivers with FedEx and others who aren’t unionized and are contractors.
I think UPS is basically the best place to work as a driver.
Does the number include the employer's portion of social security/Medicare taxes?
I wouldn’t expect it to, although sometimes I see that broken out as “taxes paid on your behalf.”
I look at what is a benefit to me and what I would need to pay for if the employer didn’t. Health insurance is a benefit because if my employer didn’t pay it, I would.
I would not need to pay my employer social security/Medicare (nor unemployment nor workers comp, etc).
Although back when I was comparing w2 and 1099 offers I included it in my calculation because I would need to pay it for myself if I chose to work 1099.
I look at what is a benefit to me and what I would need to pay for if the employer didn’t. Health insurance is a benefit because if my employer didn’t pay it, I would.
I would not need to pay my employer social security/Medicare (nor unemployment nor workers comp, etc).
Although back when I was comparing w2 and 1099 offers I included it in my calculation because I would need to pay it for myself if I chose to work 1099.
> It says “pay package” which seems to fit pay + benefits.
It seems at best like it skirts the line of "technically not incorrect" for questionable reasons; compensation packages are not an uncommon topic of conversation here or in the tech industry generally and I've never once heard someone include the cost of benefits in their TC. Certainly if an employer quoted me a compensation package of $x and then revealed that 1/3rd of it was the cost of benefits I'd be quite livid.
It seems at best like it skirts the line of "technically not incorrect" for questionable reasons; compensation packages are not an uncommon topic of conversation here or in the tech industry generally and I've never once heard someone include the cost of benefits in their TC. Certainly if an employer quoted me a compensation package of $x and then revealed that 1/3rd of it was the cost of benefits I'd be quite livid.
I always hear cost of benefits in TC, especially in union negotiation. It’s important because that’s the cost to the employer.
If I’m negotiating a union contract for the union I want to know how much I’m asking and what it costs.
As an employee, I also compare total compensation packages across offers. I once had multiple offers where one was $20k higher in pay, but the insurance was way worse (cost of $3k/year vs $18k) and the leave was way worse.
So it’s a good idea to compare total pay package, not just the gross take home.
If I’m negotiating a union contract for the union I want to know how much I’m asking and what it costs.
As an employee, I also compare total compensation packages across offers. I once had multiple offers where one was $20k higher in pay, but the insurance was way worse (cost of $3k/year vs $18k) and the leave was way worse.
So it’s a good idea to compare total pay package, not just the gross take home.
> Certainly if an employer quoted me a compensation package of $x and then revealed that 1/3rd of it was the cost of benefits I'd be quite livid.
I wouldn't, because that's exactly how most of my employers made their offer to me[1]. Not all, but most. Total compensation, in my world, anyway, isn't a rare way to put these things.
[1] The ones who do this also usually include the cash compensation somewhere in the offer letter, though. If they don't, I'll ask because that's the only part of the compensation package that I actually care about.
I wouldn't, because that's exactly how most of my employers made their offer to me[1]. Not all, but most. Total compensation, in my world, anyway, isn't a rare way to put these things.
[1] The ones who do this also usually include the cash compensation somewhere in the offer letter, though. If they don't, I'll ask because that's the only part of the compensation package that I actually care about.
I can't help but wonder if we're talking at cross purposes here? I would consider a "pay package" or "compensation package" to include salary, bonus (in some form: average, max, ???), and equity. That has been the standard "total compensation" for every tech company I've worked for and every tech company at which I've been offered a position. I would not consider: the employer's share of health insurance premiums, 401k matching, "health and wellness" benefits, transit benefits, catered food, coffee, or toilet paper in the office restrooms to be part of the "pay package" because none of that is pay.
If my expectations are genuinely unusual then I guess I consider myself quite fortunate!
If my expectations are genuinely unusual then I guess I consider myself quite fortunate!
What I ask for is all compensation from my potential employer. If they don’t provide it, that’s a bad sign.
Things I ask for: -salary -average and median overtime (if applicable) -paid time off with leave and sick broken out -company holidays (eg Christmas, Juneteenth, etc) -pension -401k match -insurance - health, life, disability, dental, vision -anything else the company pays for me
I definitely care most about salary, but I compare total bottom line across offers.
If one company pays $100k and has no 401k match and another pays $95k with 10% 401k match that’s really useful in deciding.
Things I ask for: -salary -average and median overtime (if applicable) -paid time off with leave and sick broken out -company holidays (eg Christmas, Juneteenth, etc) -pension -401k match -insurance - health, life, disability, dental, vision -anything else the company pays for me
I definitely care most about salary, but I compare total bottom line across offers.
If one company pays $100k and has no 401k match and another pays $95k with 10% 401k match that’s really useful in deciding.
Ok I've changed it to what the title says at the moment. (Submitted title was "UPS drivers in US to get $170k pay package" - possibly BBC had that earlier?)
https://teamster.org/2023/07/weve-changed-the-game-teamsters...