Grades of quality of Panama hats(brentblack.com)
brentblack.com
Grades of quality of Panama hats
https://www.brentblack.com/panama-hat-grades-explained.html
51 comments
Their Business Practices & Ethics page is also an interesting read: https://www.brentblack.com/pages/aboutus_business_practices....
Your description of "interesting" got me to click through, but such an adjective is often a veiled insult. I found Brent's candor and uncommon business sense to be refreshing and encouraging. Of course, there's no telling how true it is, because he just wants to sell us hats, but it makes for a fascinating story.
The one telling omission is how much he's actually paying the weavers. Given that the cheapest hat on his site retails for north of $700, I'm pretty sure his markup is considerable, no matter how much he pats himself on the back for eliminating the middlemen and paying weavers directly.
The first thought that occurred to me when I saw how much "charity" Bent organized in the form of tools to keep them making hats was "how many of these people wouldn't become lawyers or business people if they were being being paid fairly?"
They make the hats, but it's clear who wears the crown.
They make the hats, but it's clear who wears the crown.
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> Remember: ALL HATS HAVE SOME FLAWS, IMPERFECTIONS, AND IRREGULARITIES. If I bought only absolutely perfect hats, then I would never buy any hats.
Seems like a life lesson that can be applied generally.
Seems like a life lesson that can be applied generally.
While a baseball cap seems to be a practical item for guys/folks in North America, how does one go about choosing a more 'formal' style of hat to wear? Presumably it should be be tied to the rest of one's attire? (At the risk of turning this into /r/malefashionadvice…)
Given the weather and what I'm wearing, I switch between a cowboy, a fedora, a Panama, and a baseball cap regularly. When I'm selling farm / ranch / land property, I wear the cowboy with a set of boots. When I'm selling million dollar luxury homes in winter months, I wear the fedora with a wool long coat over a suit. When it's summer I pair the Panama with a linen jacket. My point is, despite some of the negative comments in this thread, it's ok to dress well. In answer to your question, I'd say what you like and what looks good on your body plus the weather / day's activities will guide what to wear.
My favorite fedora I bought in Wales, from the same hat company that furnished Churchill's hats. You pair that with a tweed jacket and a wool scarf and you'll be amazed at how you turn heads. I'm not saying I don't love my jeans, t-shirts, and Birkenstocks, but there's a lot to be said for dressing well.
My favorite fedora I bought in Wales, from the same hat company that furnished Churchill's hats. You pair that with a tweed jacket and a wool scarf and you'll be amazed at how you turn heads. I'm not saying I don't love my jeans, t-shirts, and Birkenstocks, but there's a lot to be said for dressing well.
> from the same hat company that furnished Churchill's hats.
Christie's?
I have a panama fedora and a felt fedora, both by Christie's. Neither is anything particularly special (the felt one is rabbit-fur). And I'm no hat expert; they're just a couple of lids.
The felt one came from Christie's factory shop, in Witney. You can look through the back door of the shop, and watch the craftsmen blocking hats. Witney is about 15 miles from where I live. Christie's main outlet is in St. James' in London, very posh. The factory shop is on an industrial estate in the back of beyond, but it's a lovely visit.
Christie's?
I have a panama fedora and a felt fedora, both by Christie's. Neither is anything particularly special (the felt one is rabbit-fur). And I'm no hat expert; they're just a couple of lids.
The felt one came from Christie's factory shop, in Witney. You can look through the back door of the shop, and watch the craftsmen blocking hats. Witney is about 15 miles from where I live. Christie's main outlet is in St. James' in London, very posh. The factory shop is on an industrial estate in the back of beyond, but it's a lovely visit.
Generally more formal hats are out of style and have been for quite some time. You can break lots of fashion rules if it's fun and you're riffing along a theme, but you should remember that most "formal" hats have been co-opted, and tend to come with some rather negative connotations (tips hat m'lady). You can overcome those with good grooming, classic style (don't wear a fedora and a t-shirt), and being attractive, not unattractive.
> tend to come with some rather negative connotations (tips hat m'lady).
The hat from that meme is not a "formal hat". It's a trilby, and at least in the UK it's associated with spivs, racecourse bookies, and Jamaican rude boys.
The hat from that meme is not a "formal hat". It's a trilby, and at least in the UK it's associated with spivs, racecourse bookies, and Jamaican rude boys.
I'm not a fancy lad, but I think about formality as a continuum, ranging from graphic tees with lewd photos on one end to white tie top hats and tails on the other. A trilby is more formal than a baseball cap, which was my point. A trilby was intended to be worn with man's suit, which is also more formal than a t-shirt, but is not formal wear. Language, dude. Crazy.
Formal hats were popular in an era where hoods and umbrellas were seen as unfashionable, and people still needed to protect their heads from sun and rain. In modern times, hoods and umbrellas have largely co-opted their role as rain gear.
Today, hats are more about expression and communication. For examples:
- Baseball hat: I'm a simple, practical person.
- Snapback: I'm young at heart. I might like hip hop or rap music.
- Mesh Trucker hat: I'm a blue collar worker and proud of it.
- Bucket hat: I enjoy spending time outdoors.
- Panama hat: I'm fun loving, relaxed, mentally/spiritually somewhere the sun always shines.
- Fedora: I'm either cringey or clueless. Avoid me.
Today, hats are more about expression and communication. For examples:
- Baseball hat: I'm a simple, practical person.
- Snapback: I'm young at heart. I might like hip hop or rap music.
- Mesh Trucker hat: I'm a blue collar worker and proud of it.
- Bucket hat: I enjoy spending time outdoors.
- Panama hat: I'm fun loving, relaxed, mentally/spiritually somewhere the sun always shines.
- Fedora: I'm either cringey or clueless. Avoid me.
I thought hats were about covering up the fact that you are going bald...
I don't feel like most of those stereotypes are really that accurate.
- Triathlon baseball style hat— it sunny/windy and I want to hold my hair down/prevent sunburn
- oiled canvas hat — it’s raining and the dog needs walked.
- knit hat - it’s cold.
- oiled canvas hat — it’s raining and the dog needs walked.
- knit hat - it’s cold.
- Panama hat: I have to wear it because my painfully strict upbringing requires it.
Or to keep sun out of your face while you’re working.
The first chapter of Men Too Wear Clothes (1939) by Dorothy Stote explains how to select a hat.
Felt for when I also wear a coat, straw for when I also wear shorts, plastic faux leather stetson when I don’t want to worry about damaging my hat ;)
Formal hats have been dead for over half a century.
If you mean top hats and such, sure, but the Panama hat, cowboy hat etc absolutely still have their plan in men's clothing, particularly if you live in the kind of climate where shade from the sun is a necessity.
I think what the parent means is a hat that's an indispensible article of formal dress. They certainly still have their place, but it's not like there's an expectation to see everyone in cowboy hats at a Texas wedding.
The only place I'm aware of where hat use as a matter of dress and appearance is still strictly adhered to is in the US military.
The only place I'm aware of where hat use as a matter of dress and appearance is still strictly adhered to is in the US military.
I think one can go farther than that... wearing a cowboy hat or a Panama hat is a bold statement. At one point it would have been a fairly unremarkable stylistic choice, but no longer.
A good pinch front western hat is fun to wear. I get compliments about my Stetson Drifter
Depends on what region you're in, but cowboy hat.
I love the copy on the individual hat pages. Here’s a snippet from the Hemingway hat:
“I don't want it all crisp and ironed looking. Don't worry about it. I want it to lose the shape you give it, as it takes the shape I give it. It should be shaped by life, by experience, by the occasional careless handling, by being too dumb to come in out of the rain once in awhile, by a bottle of Havana Club and some rummy idea about what a brim should look like, maybe even by thoughtless idiots who don't know enough to keep their damn hands off another man's hat.”
“I don't want it all crisp and ironed looking. Don't worry about it. I want it to lose the shape you give it, as it takes the shape I give it. It should be shaped by life, by experience, by the occasional careless handling, by being too dumb to come in out of the rain once in awhile, by a bottle of Havana Club and some rummy idea about what a brim should look like, maybe even by thoughtless idiots who don't know enough to keep their damn hands off another man's hat.”
[deleted]
$1K for a palm hat? A quote from PT Barnum springs to mind.
$1K for a palm hat that conveys the impression that you're part of a class of people that can spend $1K for a palm hat.
There was a link to an "explanation" of the costs, but I got a 404. Does anyone have an explanation of why anyone would value hats this much? Are they a collector's item, just rare, some kind of American Psycho style "my hat is embossed with singed ryegrass" status thing?
it's entirely hand-made, the process takes months, involves 5-6 people, etc. yes, of course it doesn't make sense unless you really think it matters or have quasi-unlimited money.
see: https://www.brentblack.com/montecristi-panama-hat-prices-exp...
and https://www.brentblack.com/pages/tour2_page_01.html
see: https://www.brentblack.com/montecristi-panama-hat-prices-exp...
and https://www.brentblack.com/pages/tour2_page_01.html
He goes into great detail about the fine-ness of the weave, and projects and business practices designed to reward good craftsmanship and promote the art (and craft) of weaving.
It's a joy to read because he writes well about something he loves.
It's a joy to read because he writes well about something he loves.
> Does anyone have an explanation of why anyone would value hats this much?
A good-quality panama wears much better than a cheap one. Cheap ones crack.
A good-quality panama wears much better than a cheap one. Cheap ones crack.
Several points:
1) Crafting some of these hats require an incredible level of human skill and time - i.e., a sort of fixed cost in time for someone to reach that level, and then a variable cost in crafting one hat with that skill. This page lists, for example, "18 Master Weavers who could actually weave one, and it would take months to do it." for the category of Super Fino. Thousands of dollars for such a hat sounds quite reasonable.
2) These are actual physical items with real function and form. Some of the function is in the form. Some of the function is in the intangible "status symbol" realm that nevertheless has a direct impact in the real world. Whether cultural, subconscious, etc., individual "presentation" can make a difference in business dealings (getting a contract vs. not), attracting the interest of desirable partners for romance &/ family formation, etc.
3) Our economics are always screwy ... the drive for efficiency is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it's great (focusing purely on provision for humans, in needs and perhaps a bit further along in, say, "Maslow's hierarchy") to be able to produce more goods and services (perhaps, there are further issues there I'll avoid for now) less expensively, so more people can have needs and wants and all that met. But, of course, the flip side is that there are fewer jobs available (at some point, another complexity I'll sidestep going into non-germane to primary point depth on). This can drive a more extreme "bimodal distribution" to prices - those who continue to use "traditional methods" have to charge not only more, comparatively (and in light of general inflation), but, more in a more absolute sense due to lower volumes, etc.
4) Of course, some of this is also likely getting into the realm of items like NFTs, iPhones, etc. - the purposeful (market) positioning by those selling as "luxury" or "status" items. I.e., more intentional, where, of course, comparisons to Barnum and general derision by people "on the outside" is a normal sort of "organic" byproduct that perhaps seemingly paradoxically can actually further the symbolism and strength of marketing / "story".
5) Apparently, these types of hats bear some resemblance to trees. Next time I see someone wearing one, I might cut their head off so I can "count the rings" (inside the hat). ;)
J/k on the last point.
Probably. Kek.
Edit: my random number generator (aka, "brain") informed me in the past several minutes that it is required (as regards "the service") for me to add this take on marketing from the great Bill Hicks: https://youtu.be/tHEOGrkhDp0?si=TPnIwP0HymFYZZkC - which, of course, gave the universe another opportunity to give me the finger (why yes, I DO want to know about how I can meet the one for me "on Bumble", ugh). 'And thus ends the lesson' and general kvetching session, with this video that fairly well captures my feelings these days. Enjoy!
1) Crafting some of these hats require an incredible level of human skill and time - i.e., a sort of fixed cost in time for someone to reach that level, and then a variable cost in crafting one hat with that skill. This page lists, for example, "18 Master Weavers who could actually weave one, and it would take months to do it." for the category of Super Fino. Thousands of dollars for such a hat sounds quite reasonable.
2) These are actual physical items with real function and form. Some of the function is in the form. Some of the function is in the intangible "status symbol" realm that nevertheless has a direct impact in the real world. Whether cultural, subconscious, etc., individual "presentation" can make a difference in business dealings (getting a contract vs. not), attracting the interest of desirable partners for romance &/ family formation, etc.
3) Our economics are always screwy ... the drive for efficiency is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it's great (focusing purely on provision for humans, in needs and perhaps a bit further along in, say, "Maslow's hierarchy") to be able to produce more goods and services (perhaps, there are further issues there I'll avoid for now) less expensively, so more people can have needs and wants and all that met. But, of course, the flip side is that there are fewer jobs available (at some point, another complexity I'll sidestep going into non-germane to primary point depth on). This can drive a more extreme "bimodal distribution" to prices - those who continue to use "traditional methods" have to charge not only more, comparatively (and in light of general inflation), but, more in a more absolute sense due to lower volumes, etc.
4) Of course, some of this is also likely getting into the realm of items like NFTs, iPhones, etc. - the purposeful (market) positioning by those selling as "luxury" or "status" items. I.e., more intentional, where, of course, comparisons to Barnum and general derision by people "on the outside" is a normal sort of "organic" byproduct that perhaps seemingly paradoxically can actually further the symbolism and strength of marketing / "story".
5) Apparently, these types of hats bear some resemblance to trees. Next time I see someone wearing one, I might cut their head off so I can "count the rings" (inside the hat). ;)
J/k on the last point.
Probably. Kek.
Edit: my random number generator (aka, "brain") informed me in the past several minutes that it is required (as regards "the service") for me to add this take on marketing from the great Bill Hicks: https://youtu.be/tHEOGrkhDp0?si=TPnIwP0HymFYZZkC - which, of course, gave the universe another opportunity to give me the finger (why yes, I DO want to know about how I can meet the one for me "on Bumble", ugh). 'And thus ends the lesson' and general kvetching session, with this video that fairly well captures my feelings these days. Enjoy!
Have you seen what people are paying for watches these days?
Doesn’t that depend on the watch? A Seiko 5 is a classy mechanical and costs about $140. Probably one of the best entry points around. I wonder what the Panama Hat equivalent is for that?
+1 for the Seiko 5. It may by now considered to be a meme watch (I've no idea, I just know it became famous outside the watch community too so it may be considered a bit "normie") but if I didn't buy and get a lot of use out of my Apple Watch I'd be wearing my Seiko 5 all the time, and would have likely picked up another. There are a few models but they are all, to my eyes, good looking and mine is pretty solid.
The prices set themselves based on market conditions, so to call the buyer suckers is reductive.
the market conditions are that we got some suckers out here
[deleted]
While I wouldn't pay that kind of money for a hat, let me throw out an alternative idea... fashion seems to have changed in the past decade... whereas people once felt compelled to buy new suits / ties / shits / skirts etc to keep up with changing fashions, today fashion has become much more of a mishmash of styles, with much greater individualism. There are items that I have bought at thrift that are older than I am, but I believe will continue to remain stylish for many years to come because they are especially well-made. Some of my sweaters are a good example of this - 40+ years old but if I were to sell them would garner hundreds $$ easily. I fully expect my son to have them someday after I'm gone.
With that frame of reference, I'm finding I'm buying fewer items, but willing to spend a bit more on them, because I expect many of my clothing items to last decades because they are well-made, quality garments. Other items, such as for yard work, etc I buy cheaply because I know they are going to get destroyed anyway.
So, that's a long way of saying - if someone can afford what are essentially heirloom pieces, I can't really call them a sucker if they believe the item is worth that to them.
With that frame of reference, I'm finding I'm buying fewer items, but willing to spend a bit more on them, because I expect many of my clothing items to last decades because they are well-made, quality garments. Other items, such as for yard work, etc I buy cheaply because I know they are going to get destroyed anyway.
So, that's a long way of saying - if someone can afford what are essentially heirloom pieces, I can't really call them a sucker if they believe the item is worth that to them.
Still does make a url that currently (but is not guaranteed to in the future) points to an ape kept worth millions.
Up to $40k!
People will pay that much for some mass produced Gucci crap. Meanwhile these hats are handmade works of art made by people who are fairly compensated for their labor.
3600 Simón Espinal $40,000 Must be commissioned, time 8 months minimum
It is not clear how much of the time is just waiting time for materials and shipping or a suitable weaver becoming available to do the job, but I would not be surprised if someone would actually spend half a year working on that hat. With that in mind, $40k no longer seems an unreasonable price. Whether you really need a hat that takes that much time to make is another question, but then again the things one really needs are very few and most things we buy are for convenience or aesthetics, so why not?
It is not clear how much of the time is just waiting time for materials and shipping or a suitable weaver becoming available to do the job, but I would not be surprised if someone would actually spend half a year working on that hat. With that in mind, $40k no longer seems an unreasonable price. Whether you really need a hat that takes that much time to make is another question, but then again the things one really needs are very few and most things we buy are for convenience or aesthetics, so why not?
> Whether you really need a hat that takes that much time to make is another question
"Need" probably isn't the word that is applicable. Nobody needs a hat that costs as much as a small apartment; if the sun is punishing, you can always get away with a knotted handkerchief.
It's not even a question of showing off; if you drive a Ferrari or a Roller, everyone knows they're expensive. But it's hard to tell without close inspection whether some guy's panama cost £200, or "if it's really the expensive kind"[0]
[0] Bob Dylan, /Brand New Leopardskin Pillbox Hat/
"Need" probably isn't the word that is applicable. Nobody needs a hat that costs as much as a small apartment; if the sun is punishing, you can always get away with a knotted handkerchief.
It's not even a question of showing off; if you drive a Ferrari or a Roller, everyone knows they're expensive. But it's hard to tell without close inspection whether some guy's panama cost £200, or "if it's really the expensive kind"[0]
[0] Bob Dylan, /Brand New Leopardskin Pillbox Hat/