Windows 11's default mail client will show ads starting 2024(techcommunity.microsoft.com)
techcommunity.microsoft.com
Windows 11's default mail client will show ads starting 2024
https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/outlook/mail-amp-calendar-apps-will-be-replaced-with-new-outlook-for/td-p/3850309
158 comments
I'd really like to see Linux desktop become a popular platform for games and game development. Proton is great, but Windows is still too mainstream.
Same thing happened to me. 10 years ago using Linux on the Desktop was tricky but worth it for me. Now it's almost the opposite, my Linux desktop feels smooth and unobtrusive compared to Windows, and rarely has any problems!
I'm not sure how much the Linux situation has improved really. I used to use Linux in the early 2000s when I was a student and had time to burn. Quickly switched back to Windows/Mac when I got a job and needed stuff to "just work".
However recently I started working for a company that provides Linux laptops. I was curious how much things had improved in 20 years. My conclusion is: not much.
Here are some of the issues I've had:
* Linux memory management is still really bad. On OOM it kills a completely random process and 90% of the time for me that means it hard-reboots my laptop. Maybe this is partly because they didn't set it up with any swap for some reason, but I'm unsure that would help (in 2003 it didn't; the system would just grind to an unresponsive halt... but we didn't have SSDs then).
* If you set a WiFi network to automatically connect to a VPN, then delete that VPN, it means the WiFi connection will always just instantly fail with no error message. Even dmesg didn't help. You can imagine how fun that was to figure out.
* For some reason half of the network settings are not in the network settings. They're in some third party app you have to run from the console. It isn't even linked via an "advanced" button in the gnome settings.
* Gnome's desktop notifications are hilariously subtle. We're talking dark grey window that disappears if you touch it with the mouse and there's no notification history. I ended up fixing the colour to make it red by hacking some CSS. It was a simple 27 step process. Couldn't fix the other issues though.
* Somewhat hilariously if you click a truncated link in a notification, the URL it takes you to will also be truncated!
* Screen capture doesn't work in Wayland. Not that I regularly need to share my screen with coworkers or anything... Fortunately switching to X was easy and doesn't seem to have any downsides at all.
* I haven't done this but multiple coworkers have accidentally uninstalled Gnome while trying to upgrade Python. HN mentality will be to blame them but that is the unthinking response.
* It takes ages to wake up. I sometimes have to absolutely mash escape for about 10 seconds.
* Battery life is of course hilarious.
Never had issues like this with Mac or Windows (though I haven't used Windows laptops really).
However recently I started working for a company that provides Linux laptops. I was curious how much things had improved in 20 years. My conclusion is: not much.
Here are some of the issues I've had:
* Linux memory management is still really bad. On OOM it kills a completely random process and 90% of the time for me that means it hard-reboots my laptop. Maybe this is partly because they didn't set it up with any swap for some reason, but I'm unsure that would help (in 2003 it didn't; the system would just grind to an unresponsive halt... but we didn't have SSDs then).
* If you set a WiFi network to automatically connect to a VPN, then delete that VPN, it means the WiFi connection will always just instantly fail with no error message. Even dmesg didn't help. You can imagine how fun that was to figure out.
* For some reason half of the network settings are not in the network settings. They're in some third party app you have to run from the console. It isn't even linked via an "advanced" button in the gnome settings.
* Gnome's desktop notifications are hilariously subtle. We're talking dark grey window that disappears if you touch it with the mouse and there's no notification history. I ended up fixing the colour to make it red by hacking some CSS. It was a simple 27 step process. Couldn't fix the other issues though.
* Somewhat hilariously if you click a truncated link in a notification, the URL it takes you to will also be truncated!
* Screen capture doesn't work in Wayland. Not that I regularly need to share my screen with coworkers or anything... Fortunately switching to X was easy and doesn't seem to have any downsides at all.
* I haven't done this but multiple coworkers have accidentally uninstalled Gnome while trying to upgrade Python. HN mentality will be to blame them but that is the unthinking response.
* It takes ages to wake up. I sometimes have to absolutely mash escape for about 10 seconds.
* Battery life is of course hilarious.
Never had issues like this with Mac or Windows (though I haven't used Windows laptops really).
I've had many of these things happen to me barring the Gnome and Wayland bugs since I don't use them.
I still would hardly say that not much has changed, nor that the Desktop experience on many popular distros is bad.
It's also important to note that while the UX problems between Windows and Linux aren't the same in number and nature, the root of these problems are relevant imho.
With Linux distros, it's just lack of resources. They can address them with enough man hours.
With Windows, many of the user-hostile aspects of the UX are part of the product map, and I don't anticipate that getting any better.
I'm long on Linux on the desktop, which I know is a punch-line, but it's working for plenty of people of various technical stripes.
I still would hardly say that not much has changed, nor that the Desktop experience on many popular distros is bad.
It's also important to note that while the UX problems between Windows and Linux aren't the same in number and nature, the root of these problems are relevant imho.
With Linux distros, it's just lack of resources. They can address them with enough man hours.
With Windows, many of the user-hostile aspects of the UX are part of the product map, and I don't anticipate that getting any better.
I'm long on Linux on the desktop, which I know is a punch-line, but it's working for plenty of people of various technical stripes.
I can't comment on your experience, but I can describe mine.
Back in 2003 I tried to install a Linux distro on my personal machine (Mandrake if memory serves) and it was an atrocious experience. Couldn't even get my mouse to work.
Sometime around 2015 I decided to give it a second chance. I worked for a company where we could work on Linux machines and I decided to give it ago. Ubuntu this time around. I had a pleasant experience, for development it proved to be a solid option, but I couldn't switch my personal machine to Linux because I would lose access to my gaming library.
Earlier this year I decided to give another go. Replaced Windows with Linux Mint, and couldn't be happier. It's an absolute joy to use, and thanks to Proton, I can play the vast majority of my PC games there. Most work right off the bat through Steam or Lutris. Some required minor tinkering.
I had none the issues you described.
Back in 2003 I tried to install a Linux distro on my personal machine (Mandrake if memory serves) and it was an atrocious experience. Couldn't even get my mouse to work.
Sometime around 2015 I decided to give it a second chance. I worked for a company where we could work on Linux machines and I decided to give it ago. Ubuntu this time around. I had a pleasant experience, for development it proved to be a solid option, but I couldn't switch my personal machine to Linux because I would lose access to my gaming library.
Earlier this year I decided to give another go. Replaced Windows with Linux Mint, and couldn't be happier. It's an absolute joy to use, and thanks to Proton, I can play the vast majority of my PC games there. Most work right off the bat through Steam or Lutris. Some required minor tinkering.
I had none the issues you described.
Note that most of those are GNOME issues. GNOME is hilariously bad. Most of your issues are simply not a problem in other desktop environments:)
"Mail" on Windows notified me that starting with 2024, Outlook will replace it as the new default Mail client on Windows. It also asked me if I want to switch now.
I decided to try it out and during setup of the new free Outlook I got asked how I want to see my ads: As a banner above the mail window or in my inbox.
This took my by surprise since it essentially means, that the default mail client for Windows now will start serving ads.
Tweet for reference: https://twitter.com/Farbklex91/status/1716847430510023000
I decided to try it out and during setup of the new free Outlook I got asked how I want to see my ads: As a banner above the mail window or in my inbox.
This took my by surprise since it essentially means, that the default mail client for Windows now will start serving ads.
Tweet for reference: https://twitter.com/Farbklex91/status/1716847430510023000
> I decided to try it out and during setup of the new free Outlook I got asked how I want to see my ads: As a banner above the mail window or in my inbox
It's absurd of them to even imply that anyone wants to see the ads at all. They clearly know that given the option, pretty much everyone would answer the question "where do you want to see your ads in your mail client" with "nowhere". There are certainly products where I grudgingly recognize that ads are the only way they're able to provide the product at all, but I can't see how they possibly could claim that here when they're literally going out of their way to move people towards using it.
It's absurd of them to even imply that anyone wants to see the ads at all. They clearly know that given the option, pretty much everyone would answer the question "where do you want to see your ads in your mail client" with "nowhere". There are certainly products where I grudgingly recognize that ads are the only way they're able to provide the product at all, but I can't see how they possibly could claim that here when they're literally going out of their way to move people towards using it.
Note to self: the market for 3rd party windows mail clients is going to grow next year.
Just switch to Linux already. It's really there. Some compromises required, sure, but they are already far and between.
Keep it for gaming if you need. But give Proton a try first.
My almost 75yo dad switched recently. I swear I'm telling the truth: his main complaint was, after buying a new printer, he couldn't find the matching drivers. I told him just to print, and that was that.
Keep it for gaming if you need. But give Proton a try first.
My almost 75yo dad switched recently. I swear I'm telling the truth: his main complaint was, after buying a new printer, he couldn't find the matching drivers. I told him just to print, and that was that.
> it's really there
Battery life, display scaling, sleep & wake up issues, trackpad gestures, sound output, GPU-accelerated video playback... Just to name a couple of problems I hope not to encounter every time I decide to give Linux another chance, but I still do.
To fix them, you need to run some arcane commands, edit some config files, compile your own kernel, ... I don't know. I'll have something that "just works". I'll keep using Linux headless on a server, where it really shines.
Battery life, display scaling, sleep & wake up issues, trackpad gestures, sound output, GPU-accelerated video playback... Just to name a couple of problems I hope not to encounter every time I decide to give Linux another chance, but I still do.
To fix them, you need to run some arcane commands, edit some config files, compile your own kernel, ... I don't know. I'll have something that "just works". I'll keep using Linux headless on a server, where it really shines.
> To fix them, you need to run some arcane commands
At least you can fix them.
Also, sorry can't help the cheap shot: how is typing "arcane commands" any different than clicking on "gnostic glyphs"? Anything can sound complex if you want it to :)
I'm not disputing your experiences but it's so surprising to me. I exclusively use Linux on the desktop on numerous devices, some of which seem like prime candidates for the types of issues you mention, but I've not had any major problems in literal years, especially since switching to the zen kernel.
It's always a shame when people don't like the things you do I guess.
At least you can fix them.
Also, sorry can't help the cheap shot: how is typing "arcane commands" any different than clicking on "gnostic glyphs"? Anything can sound complex if you want it to :)
I'm not disputing your experiences but it's so surprising to me. I exclusively use Linux on the desktop on numerous devices, some of which seem like prime candidates for the types of issues you mention, but I've not had any major problems in literal years, especially since switching to the zen kernel.
It's always a shame when people don't like the things you do I guess.
Well, a major difference is that you can discover a GUI and find solutions organically, while the shell is pretty useless without prior knowledge. Even as an experienced user, you need to know to put research into those issues.
I usually struggle with GUIs and I find the concept of discoverability awful. Having to randomly click through tons of menus until you discover the right place is frustrating. I use MS Word maybe twice a month, and every time I go through that ritual of clicking through several tabs just to be able to discover how to save a file. If I used it more often I certainly would remember, but then it's no longer about discovering.
Oh and if you're lucky you have the option to hover for a second to find what the icons mean through a tooltip. Having to do that with every icon until you find the right one is not pleasant.
I just find typing "help" or "man" a lot more intuitive than the random clicking on icons.
I'm sure that I'm a rare specimen and most people would prefer clicking to reading, but personally I find discoverability a bad user experience.
Oh and if you're lucky you have the option to hover for a second to find what the icons mean through a tooltip. Having to do that with every icon until you find the right one is not pleasant.
I just find typing "help" or "man" a lot more intuitive than the random clicking on icons.
I'm sure that I'm a rare specimen and most people would prefer clicking to reading, but personally I find discoverability a bad user experience.
There's nothing wrong with the concept of discoverability. Having the capability of discovering how to do thing X without referring to documentation is fine. The problem is when users are forced to rely on it because the documentation is trash or nonexistent. That does seem to be a trend and I share your frustration with it, but discoverability and good documentation can (and should) coexist.
Yes, you are right that discoverability isn't detrimental unless it becomes an expectation that this is how one must engage with software. I assume that it is also the preferred way to engage with software for some people .
Good user interface/software design is good regardless of whether it is graphical or not though.
Having a row of icons with vague meanings, or endlessly nested/badly categories menus isn't intuitive or easy.
Conversely, there are a plethora of terminal-based programs with absolutely excellent UX.
Anyone can edit a well-documented template/example config file, and a good CLI program is almost like an interactive conversation, which again is an extremely intuitive experience. It's not the fault of whether the interface is graphical or not in most cases, it's just mediocre/bad software.
Having a row of icons with vague meanings, or endlessly nested/badly categories menus isn't intuitive or easy.
Conversely, there are a plethora of terminal-based programs with absolutely excellent UX.
Anyone can edit a well-documented template/example config file, and a good CLI program is almost like an interactive conversation, which again is an extremely intuitive experience. It's not the fault of whether the interface is graphical or not in most cases, it's just mediocre/bad software.
On bleeding edge hardware: possibly. On anything that is a couple of years old Linux runs out of the box, usually is rock solid. It's a bit less flashy and in your face though, but I personally prefer that.
> On anything that is a couple of years old Linux runs out of the box
YMMV. Just yesterday, I discovered that the Debian installer doesn't include support for UFS drives, which have been available in laptops for 3+ years now.
(Explaining to my wife why I was returning the laptop I'd just bought wouldn't have been a great endorsement for "Linux runs out of the box".)
Coincidental bug report from mail list last week: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]...
YMMV. Just yesterday, I discovered that the Debian installer doesn't include support for UFS drives, which have been available in laptops for 3+ years now.
(Explaining to my wife why I was returning the laptop I'd just bought wouldn't have been a great endorsement for "Linux runs out of the box".)
Coincidental bug report from mail list last week: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]...
Interesting, UFS probably means something different to me than it means to you, for me it spells Unix File System, the bug report lists it as some hardware variation that I'd never even heard of today.
Did you see the follow up comments by the way? Compared to trying to get support from a commercial vendor the FOSS world never ceases to amaze me with the degree of effort people are willing to make to get other people on the way again.
So, let's strike 'a couple of years old' and add 'anything mainstream that is a couple of years old'. We're going to end up with a very long definition if we have to add all of the possible exceptions but I suspect there are more devices capable of running Linux by now than there are of running Windows!
Did you see the follow up comments by the way? Compared to trying to get support from a commercial vendor the FOSS world never ceases to amaze me with the degree of effort people are willing to make to get other people on the way again.
So, let's strike 'a couple of years old' and add 'anything mainstream that is a couple of years old'. We're going to end up with a very long definition if we have to add all of the possible exceptions but I suspect there are more devices capable of running Linux by now than there are of running Windows!
Well UFS isn't entirely esoteric, it's the successor to eMMC and the storage medium on most Android phones. (iPhones use NVMe) I think it's mostly that the UFS/Debian intersection is a bit of an edge case where users aren't typically trying to install Debian on low-end laptops, but it threw me for a bit of a loop when I ran the installer and it showed no available drives to install to. (The Ubuntu installer, for instance, does seem to include UFS support.)
And yes, the support was good! I expect the installer will be fixed within a few months, or whenever the next Debian release happens, given how easy the fix looks to be.
And yes, the support was good! I expect the installer will be fixed within a few months, or whenever the next Debian release happens, given how easy the fix looks to be.
I only use Windows on my gaming desktop and would go Linux first next time I upgrade. Only a few games I play still need Windows and I could still use dual boot for them.
> Just switch to Linux already.
> It's really there. Some compromises required, sure, but they are already far and between.
There are a lot of compromises:
- The Linux desktop is far flakier and far less elegant than Windows and especially macOS. KDE's a little less flakey than GNOME, I suppose.
- A lot of the apps you love don't exist on Linux.
- The Linux replacements for the apps you love are way less functional.
- Keyboard shortcuts are chaotic unless you spend a lot of time deep diving on how to configure them coherently across applications.
- Odd behaviors with snap/flatpak apps, but those will get worked out with time.
Pluses:
- The underlying Linux OS is rock stable with compatible hardware.
- You can customize your desktop pretty much infinitely, if that's your thing.
- Everything is free.
- Logging is, compared to macOS and Windows, excellent.
- If you're a developer, everything is more compatible on Linux.
Anyways, after a year, I went crawling back to my Mac. I still have a Linux desktop SSD in the PC, ready to go, but I rarely pop in anymore.
That said, if you live the terminals plus browser lifestyle, you won't miss much switching to Linux desktop.
Edit: for context, I used UNIX and Linux way before I ever used Windows or DOS. I have, in the past, done deep dives on Windows, Windows kernel, Windows and .net programming, etc. I just prefer *NIX.
Let's just agree to disagree. I grew up with Windows, learnt programming on it, was C++ proficient, COM, COM+, switched to C#, .NET, WinForms, WPF ... and that was when it got too much. If you know Windows, you probably can at least feel why. I earned quite a lot of money with Windows.
I had tons of apps on Windows, and all alternatives on Linux are better to me (IntelliJ vs. Visual Studio, VS Code the same, CodeLion). I had a MacOS stint in the middle of the transition, so maybe that's a difference.
But still: I'm not you, you are not me, and that's okay. I'm just proof that it is probably subjective, and not objective, what you describe.
And regarding the desktop OS experience: couldn't disagree more. But, as already said, probably taste :)
I had tons of apps on Windows, and all alternatives on Linux are better to me (IntelliJ vs. Visual Studio, VS Code the same, CodeLion). I had a MacOS stint in the middle of the transition, so maybe that's a difference.
But still: I'm not you, you are not me, and that's okay. I'm just proof that it is probably subjective, and not objective, what you describe.
And regarding the desktop OS experience: couldn't disagree more. But, as already said, probably taste :)
If Adobe or Serif announced Linux support, I’d switch in a heartbeat. I was about to add DaVinci Resolve to that list, but they actually released official Linux support, so I can cross some video editing off my list. And one presumes all web-based tools such as Figma also work well on Linux these days, so… the list of tools that aren’t Linux compatible might be vanishingly small now. But not zero, sadly.
Too many dev commenters will hand-wave away complaints about graphics work on Linux. Bitmap and vector graphics are terrible, and I have tried the options. RAW photo editing is mediocre. Font rendering and color management has always been behind.
When I switched to a Mac, it wasn't that MacOS got vastly better. It was that Windows has been getting dramatically worse.
I that being said, Resolve and Blender on Linux can nicely serve subsets of the creative community. We just need more.
When I switched to a Mac, it wasn't that MacOS got vastly better. It was that Windows has been getting dramatically worse.
I that being said, Resolve and Blender on Linux can nicely serve subsets of the creative community. We just need more.
Figma works perfectly on Linux¹. If you don't believe me, let's privately talk.
E-Mail me at [email protected], if you like.
¹ our (sub-orga-wide) UX crew uses MacOS, almost all Devs use Linux, and both of them use Figma
E-Mail me at [email protected], if you like.
¹ our (sub-orga-wide) UX crew uses MacOS, almost all Devs use Linux, and both of them use Figma
My hope is to find a viable enough setup to return to Linux, preferably on a modular component, unified memory ARM64 architecture of some sort, but I'm flexible.
It's just what you're used to. I wouldn't be able to get through my day on a windows box, I'd be so frustrated.
A lot of the apps that I love don't exist on windows. Unix vs windows is like a very large and well stocked toolbox versus a set of nail clippers and a bent hairpin.
A lot of the apps that I love don't exist on windows. Unix vs windows is like a very large and well stocked toolbox versus a set of nail clippers and a bent hairpin.
I agree. I did hold out for a year on modern Linux desktop, but I think the relative elegance of macOS has ruined me, I think.
At some point in the next year or two, I plan to re-dogfood Linux desktop with i3 or Sway, as I effectively work in a tiled arrangement and it's far more stable than GNOME.
I don't really use Windows, but when I do, I'm pretty much in a web browser or WSL. I don't have much interest in the rest of it anymore, especially with the ruination Microsoft is committing.
While I've done a lot of Windows programming and PowerShell and whatnot, I'm a UNIX native, I'm old, and I'm sticking with some variant of it until EOL.
At some point in the next year or two, I plan to re-dogfood Linux desktop with i3 or Sway, as I effectively work in a tiled arrangement and it's far more stable than GNOME.
I don't really use Windows, but when I do, I'm pretty much in a web browser or WSL. I don't have much interest in the rest of it anymore, especially with the ruination Microsoft is committing.
While I've done a lot of Windows programming and PowerShell and whatnot, I'm a UNIX native, I'm old, and I'm sticking with some variant of it until EOL.
> A lot of the apps you love don't exist on Linux.
About this point, I switched to Ubuntu in 2009 after I realized that all the apps I was using in Windows XP were open source and available on Linux too. Some of them were actually Linux native and were much faster there, example: Gimp.
About this point, I switched to Ubuntu in 2009 after I realized that all the apps I was using in Windows XP were open source and available on Linux too. Some of them were actually Linux native and were much faster there, example: Gimp.
Oh god no. This is just not the solution for most people unless you want to own their computing infrastructure until they drop dead and have to micromanage their differences galore.
And for myself, I'd rather pay for O365 than use Linux on the desktop. It is just so so so broken. High DPI is a mess, half the apps are only 60% complete, weird ass bugs (LibreOffice won't open spreadsheets it created half the time for example) and on top of that things break all the time on routine upgrades from power management to GPU drivers.
I say this as someone who actually spends most of the day SSH'ed into Linux boxes.
I've been trying for 25 years to get it on my desktop and it's nowhere near any commercial product in any way.
And for myself, I'd rather pay for O365 than use Linux on the desktop. It is just so so so broken. High DPI is a mess, half the apps are only 60% complete, weird ass bugs (LibreOffice won't open spreadsheets it created half the time for example) and on top of that things break all the time on routine upgrades from power management to GPU drivers.
I say this as someone who actually spends most of the day SSH'ed into Linux boxes.
I've been trying for 25 years to get it on my desktop and it's nowhere near any commercial product in any way.
You seem to really have bad luck. High DPI works without a glitch¹ on all of our developer machines², most of them using two 4k monitors in parallel.
¹ both on Wayland and X11, so maybe we're really being lucky.
² mostly Dell Laptops, but also Lenovo
¹ both on Wayland and X11, so maybe we're really being lucky.
² mostly Dell Laptops, but also Lenovo
Can you do 150% fractional scaling on a 27" 4K monitor in any Gnome based desktop?
Dell? I have a cupboard full of ones I've murdered and a limping one. No thanks.
Dell? I have a cupboard full of ones I've murdered and a limping one. No thanks.
If only there existed a viable Remote Desktop alternative for Linux.
I use Remote Desktop to log into my home PC when I'm at work or away. No need to have a powerful laptop and no need to worry about laptop getting stolen.
Tried all the Linux alternatives (latest round was last year). Yes there are functional remote desktop solutions, where functional means it actually works. But they're not really usable on a day-to-day basis and none of them are anywhere near the RDP experience.
I see some developments on the horizon which make me a bit hopeful though.
I use Remote Desktop to log into my home PC when I'm at work or away. No need to have a powerful laptop and no need to worry about laptop getting stolen.
Tried all the Linux alternatives (latest round was last year). Yes there are functional remote desktop solutions, where functional means it actually works. But they're not really usable on a day-to-day basis and none of them are anywhere near the RDP experience.
I see some developments on the horizon which make me a bit hopeful though.
What about TeamViewer.
Performance is passable, though again not as great as RDP. Though I really don't like the idea of having my private machine open to a corporation.
> Just switch to Linux already. It's really there.
Is it though? A friend of mine bought AMD RX 7800. He went with AMD specifically to make sure Linux compatibility is top notch given that AMD drivers are included in the kernel and developed by AMD developers. The result is that he cannot boot his Arch machine with it until he disconnects his monitor. Seriously. It just hangs forever [0]. Everything is up to date. Tried with NixOS and got same result. That's on top of other performance related problems he's encountered (mostly in Blender). Tried Windows to make sure the card is not at fault and voilà everything works correctly with no issues.
[0] https://i.imgur.com/t6mXPm5.jpg
Is it though? A friend of mine bought AMD RX 7800. He went with AMD specifically to make sure Linux compatibility is top notch given that AMD drivers are included in the kernel and developed by AMD developers. The result is that he cannot boot his Arch machine with it until he disconnects his monitor. Seriously. It just hangs forever [0]. Everything is up to date. Tried with NixOS and got same result. That's on top of other performance related problems he's encountered (mostly in Blender). Tried Windows to make sure the card is not at fault and voilà everything works correctly with no issues.
[0] https://i.imgur.com/t6mXPm5.jpg
I have the idea that most people use browser-based email clients anyway?
Why? Then you have to open your browser.
I use Evolution.
I use Evolution.
> Why? Then you have to open your browser.
To me, the question isn't "why use my browser", it's "why use something else when I already have a browser and it's always open"?
To me, the question isn't "why use my browser", it's "why use something else when I already have a browser and it's always open"?
For me, the answer is "because native mail clients are so much snappier and responsive".
As well as being able to choose my client based on the interface I prefer, rather than whatever UI the webmail provider decides to give me. And my mail client is also always open. And it uses less memory than a typical browser tab.
As well as being able to choose my client based on the interface I prefer, rather than whatever UI the webmail provider decides to give me. And my mail client is also always open. And it uses less memory than a typical browser tab.
The reality I think is, the average user probably doesn't care about snappyness as long as it is not too bothersome. The path of least resistance is opening the webmail (no setup required).
Fair. I just don't always have a browser open. I don't need it when I'm coding and such. If I need to look something up I'll make a note and come back to it. Breaks my flow to just stop and look something up when I can just stub something out and fix it proper later.
Many folks, including myself, live (nearly) entirely within the browser. Pinned tabs, multiple windows, as big improvements in JS / wasm make this pretty smooth.
I don't think I am saying something controversial when I say that the majority of people have a browser open at almost all times...
Indeed, browsers are open a lot. It's nice to consolidate your needs to just tabs in there. I use Slack and plenty of other things that way too.
I will say, however, a proper email client is nice for archival purposes.
(note: not the person you're replying to, just a random passerby)
I will say, however, a proper email client is nice for archival purposes.
(note: not the person you're replying to, just a random passerby)
Considering changes in communication, where mail is less relevant compared to discord, slack, WhatsApp, ... I guess many people can meanwhile live quite some time without looking at a mail app at all. While browser is needed regularly.
I've been out of the loop due to using Linux the last 20 years, but back when I was using Windows XP, the default mail client was also called Outlook (well, Outlook Express).
So apparently I missed some time period where it was called "Mail" instead. But now it'll be Outlook again. Full circle!
So apparently I missed some time period where it was called "Mail" instead. But now it'll be Outlook again. Full circle!
Full circle twice: there was a Microsoft Mail well before Microsoft Outlook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Mail
One of the things I’ve appreciated a lot about macOS and iOS is that the stock Mail app is focused more on being a good generic email client than it is on trying to sell iCloud or be a profit center. It’s served me very well for the handful of IMAP addresses I use, with exception to Gmail (which has a dodgy IMAP implementation).
The Windows Mail client was on its way to becoming a close analogue to Mail.app but I guess those days are over.
The Windows Mail client was on its way to becoming a close analogue to Mail.app but I guess those days are over.
I wish I wasn't tied to Gmail because it means I can't really use any other clients if I want instant notifications. And their official app has ads that look like emails.
I assume they must do that on purpose, right? Make their IMAP implementation bad so people will use their clients with ads? I'd kinda hope regulators would step in on something like that for a case like Gmail where they're practically the default email provider for most people.
I assume they must do that on purpose, right? Make their IMAP implementation bad so people will use their clients with ads? I'd kinda hope regulators would step in on something like that for a case like Gmail where they're practically the default email provider for most people.
> I'd kinda hope regulators would step in on something like that for a case like Gmail where they're practically the default email provider for most people.
Regulators won't ever save you.
Regulators won't ever save you.
* buy a domain name on namecheap
* setup a proton mail account (think you'll wind up paying some for it, but its worth it)
* link your domain name to your proton mail account and setup an alias
* forward your gmail to the new alias on the domain name that you control
* slowly start converting all the references to your old gmail to the new account
> I wish I wasn't tied to Gmail because it means I can't really use any other clients if I want instant notifications.
what? it's supported IMAP IDLE for longer than some of the posters in HN have been alive.
> I'd kinda hope regulators would step in on something like that for a case like Gmail where they're practically the default email provider for most people.
... you chose to use some random company's domain for your email address, that's been an obvious problem for thirty years now.
there's jillions of things to criticise google about, this is absolutely not one of them.
what? it's supported IMAP IDLE for longer than some of the posters in HN have been alive.
> I'd kinda hope regulators would step in on something like that for a case like Gmail where they're practically the default email provider for most people.
... you chose to use some random company's domain for your email address, that's been an obvious problem for thirty years now.
there's jillions of things to criticise google about, this is absolutely not one of them.
Look - I don't know much about email standards but I know if I try to use Gmail on the Apple Mail client it doesn't give me notifications. Everyone I've talked to has the same issue, they get a dumping of notifications once per week with every email they got in the past 7 days. No solutions to be found online either, if you have one I'd be more than happy to hear it.
> ... you chose to use some random company's domain for your email address, that's been an obvious problem for thirty years now.
I was 13 when I made the account. I obviously wouldn't have tied so many things to it if I knew what I know now back then. I'll try to be born earlier next time, and then maybe I can buy a house before 2008 and some 90s Apple stocks while I'm at it.
> ... you chose to use some random company's domain for your email address, that's been an obvious problem for thirty years now.
I was 13 when I made the account. I obviously wouldn't have tied so many things to it if I knew what I know now back then. I'll try to be born earlier next time, and then maybe I can buy a house before 2008 and some 90s Apple stocks while I'm at it.
I'm not having a dig at you for being young, I'm explaining it's not a Gmail problem. I had to move on from my lycos.com email address too but that later you do it the harder it is.
I don't know what I'm doing differently, but I have my domain's email hosted on Google Apps and it notifies just fine.
I've never had issues getting instant notifications for gmail using apple mail, and that is an extremely common combination of email service and client.
It might not have been on purpose originally but it's certainly convenient and in their best interest to leave their IMAP support in that state.
The only place you'll find ads in macOS is the App Store, in stark contrast to Microsoft, which seems to seize every opportunity to push ads.
Seems like a lot of companies are aiming for the trifecta of: subscription payments + increasingly worse product + show ads
It's in the spirit of preloaded crapware, Yahoo, and AOL.
It's coming full circle with NetZero and Juno from 25 years ago! "Hey we'll give you this free thing (then: internet/now: mail, OS, apps) in exchange for ads!
You’re paying, AND you’re the product. Great days to come!
There's Thunderbird, much better solution than mail or outlook.
Thunderbird is alright but I think it's in need of what Firefox was to Mozilla Suite – a lean and mean cross platform IMAP client with a nice UI, and that's it. I don't want an Outlook-style client that's full of things that aren't email (calendar etc).
Recently I've had delivery issues with Thunderbird. That makes me rethink my use of it.
I sent the same email from the same address to the same recipient once with Thunderbird on Windows, once with Apple Mail on iOS. The one with Thunderbird was silently dropped (not even reaching the spam folder), the one sent with Apple Mail reached the inbox without issue. I've had that same issue with 2 different recipient companies.
And yes, my address passes SPF, DKIM, has a strict DMARC, and isn't in any blacklist (uses iCloud+ as host).
I sent the same email from the same address to the same recipient once with Thunderbird on Windows, once with Apple Mail on iOS. The one with Thunderbird was silently dropped (not even reaching the spam folder), the one sent with Apple Mail reached the inbox without issue. I've had that same issue with 2 different recipient companies.
And yes, my address passes SPF, DKIM, has a strict DMARC, and isn't in any blacklist (uses iCloud+ as host).
Also Claws Mail for Windows:
https://www.claws-mail.org/win32/
(The URL is /win32/, but there are 64-bit builds there too)
https://www.claws-mail.org/win32/
(The URL is /win32/, but there are 64-bit builds there too)
Installed it again today. I use Windows only for gaming and therefore didn't care much about mail on it.
I never imagined myself using a Linux desktop everyday, but I don't want to pay Apple for 64gb of RAM and an acceptable number of monitors via my docking station, and Microsoft is just becoming terrible.
Going to have to figure out what to switch to... Yikes!
Going to have to figure out what to switch to... Yikes!
I use a $300 second hand W540 maxed out on RAM (32G, I don't think it would take 16G modules but I haven't looked into that, this is sufficient) with two external monitors attached. Uses a tiny bit of power compared to the desktop that it replaced (when I switched the house over to solar power I did a conservation exercise first and my desktop was one of the worst offenders) and everything works as far as I can tell. This box has been up and running for two years non-stop now, the only big change I made to the original is to put a nice fat SSD in it and to remove the battery because it never gets unplugged anyway. As OS I use Ubuntu Studio which makes for a nice development platform for music related software.
I have a recent XPS 15 with nvidia graphics, 64gb of ram and 2tb ssd. That cost me about $1,500 including upgraded drives myself. But spec out a 14" Macbook Pro this way and it's easily 3,800-4,000. I don't need something second hand cheap, but I don't want to pay $4,000 either.
That's a nice little rig. I needed something that could drive my monitors without change from the previous setup and that wasn't something I could easily find in a new laptop so that's why I ended up with this old beast. But 64G would be nice to have. I checked the price of the only XPS that is available on Dell.nl and it goes for 4200 euros!
https://www.dell.com/nl-nl/shop/dell-laptops-en-notebooks/sr...
https://www.dell.com/nl-nl/shop/dell-laptops-en-notebooks/sr...
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You can put Linux Mint on a bootable USB and try it, to see if it works well with your hardware. Mint is a great first Linux for former Windows users, since its desktop has a similar layout and it comes with a lot of free, good software, and maybe the best GUI software package manager ever.
Other distros have other advantages - I'm a happy NixOS user now - but Mint makes an excellent first Linux.
Other distros have other advantages - I'm a happy NixOS user now - but Mint makes an excellent first Linux.
I've been on Mint Cinnamon for probably close to 10 years now after spending the first half of my career developing applications for Windows platform with MS tooling and backend. I saw the direction they were going with Win8 and made the switch and have never looked back.
My main desktop went out of support earlier this year, but it has been so stable I can't be bothered to rebuild it. I have apps for everything I need from photo and video editing and management, to gaming, to productivity and development. My newer laptops have more recent builds and likewise have worked without issue. Really the only speedbump I have are a couple of Windows only things like a Dymo label printer and some automotive tuning software, so I run a dual boot on one XPS 15.
Unfortunately at work I can't run Linux so I use a MBP as it's far better than Windows, however it still infuriates me regularly and I don't use any other Apple products. I've previously contributed to Mint and was recently thinking I need to send some more money, so thanks for the reminder!
My main desktop went out of support earlier this year, but it has been so stable I can't be bothered to rebuild it. I have apps for everything I need from photo and video editing and management, to gaming, to productivity and development. My newer laptops have more recent builds and likewise have worked without issue. Really the only speedbump I have are a couple of Windows only things like a Dymo label printer and some automotive tuning software, so I run a dual boot on one XPS 15.
Unfortunately at work I can't run Linux so I use a MBP as it's far better than Windows, however it still infuriates me regularly and I don't use any other Apple products. I've previously contributed to Mint and was recently thinking I need to send some more money, so thanks for the reminder!
I did puppy linux on a flash drive for a while, then jumped straight to Arch.
Recently I switched to Ubuntu because I’d switched to a laptop, and I thought it would handle things more nicely for me. I regret it. It does too much.
I’d recommend the first two steps I took, though.
Recently I switched to Ubuntu because I’d switched to a laptop, and I thought it would handle things more nicely for me. I regret it. It does too much.
I’d recommend the first two steps I took, though.
Microsoft seem to be the worst of all the big companies that is surviving just because of extremely hard to dislodge monopolies. Consumer products come with windows, and enterprises opt for windows due to lock in. Office is so entrenched that most companies have little choice but to buy it. And Windows seems to be adding the shittiest features of almost any modern operating system. I use https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 for disabling windows telemetry and the amount of flags for data tracking is insane.
M$FT have used the Office monopoly to push teams and AD to push Azure, both of which are subpar products. It is hard to find one good product they have made in the last 20 years (and yes VSCode is not it).
M$FT have used the Office monopoly to push teams and AD to push Azure, both of which are subpar products. It is hard to find one good product they have made in the last 20 years (and yes VSCode is not it).
Of course, ¿what did you expect?
(yeah, yeah, knee-jerk reaction, but the trend on Windows becoming user-hostile can be seen at this point from the other side of the Milky Way)
(yeah, yeah, knee-jerk reaction, but the trend on Windows becoming user-hostile can be seen at this point from the other side of the Milky Way)
I guess we can expect the nag notifications when people install Thunderbird, or open gmail.com in Edge soon then
I actually like Windows Mail (more than web gmail at least lol) so I am bummed out about this development. Gonna have to find some other minimal mail client.
Microsoft seems determined to make all of the wrong choices for Windows.
I tried the New Outlook after having issues with the default mail app. I was greeted with a message "To add your iCloud account to Outlook, we need to sync your emails, contacts, and events to the Microsoft Cloud."
I'm sorry WHAT?!? You're telling me that to use a local email service I need to sync with Microsoft servers?
Someone here please tell me that this is just because it was in beta and all of the features didn't exist yet? Otherwise what the hell is Microsoft thinking?
For the record I just did not do this and any chance of using Windows for productivity tasks went completely out the Window. Windows was always just primarily for gaming but having email there would have been nice.
I tried the New Outlook after having issues with the default mail app. I was greeted with a message "To add your iCloud account to Outlook, we need to sync your emails, contacts, and events to the Microsoft Cloud."
I'm sorry WHAT?!? You're telling me that to use a local email service I need to sync with Microsoft servers?
Someone here please tell me that this is just because it was in beta and all of the features didn't exist yet? Otherwise what the hell is Microsoft thinking?
For the record I just did not do this and any chance of using Windows for productivity tasks went completely out the Window. Windows was always just primarily for gaming but having email there would have been nice.
Acompli, the mobile mail app Microsoft bought and rebranded as Outlook, was like Newton and other email apps of its day - it used OAuth and cloud APIs to check messages on its servers and then created a combined inbox by sending push notifications to your phone as it received new emails on your behalf in the cloud.
It sort of sounds like maybe the same infrastructure was borrowed here to set up the iCloud account in the local Outlook app. Presumably the local app is now based on the prior Acompli infrastructure.
That said… it really doesn’t pass the sniff test, it feels like Microsoft wants your contacts the same way LinkedIn (also Microsoft) wants your contacts. Personally, I wish I hadn’t trusted Google, Meta and LinkedIn as much with my contacts as I did in the past. Live and learn, I suppose.
It sort of sounds like maybe the same infrastructure was borrowed here to set up the iCloud account in the local Outlook app. Presumably the local app is now based on the prior Acompli infrastructure.
That said… it really doesn’t pass the sniff test, it feels like Microsoft wants your contacts the same way LinkedIn (also Microsoft) wants your contacts. Personally, I wish I hadn’t trusted Google, Meta and LinkedIn as much with my contacts as I did in the past. Live and learn, I suppose.
the entire concept of having the users provide their credentials to a third party for them to access their accounts to provide a service is one of those things that should be included in the anti-phishing training. i don't care if the service doesn't provide a proper API for third party access or not ESPECIALLY if it is for a cloud provided service. if it was a locally running app, i might consider it only slightly less egregious.
I had this exact same reaction less than a week ago and it prompted me to switch to Thunderbird. For years I've fallen into the "if not for gaming ..." camp of Windows users. But I'm getting closer and closer to just not caring about that any more and switching to Mac or Linux instead just to get away from Windows.
I installed Pop on a new PC (intel, nvidia) a couple of months ago. It's been barely more trouble than Windows and gaming so far has been successful (Cyberpunk, BG3).
(Tried Linux on the desktop every year for the previous 20-something, always hit some deal-breaker within a day or so. This time it's looking good.)
(Tried Linux on the desktop every year for the previous 20-something, always hit some deal-breaker within a day or so. This time it's looking good.)
Gaming hasn't been an "excuse" for years. More games run on GNU/Linux than any gaming console, installed as easily as finding the game on Steam / GOG / itch.io etc. and clicking "install".
I actually switched to GNU/Linux in college because I wanted to play video games less. This happened right before Proton was released in 2018. Let's just say that I was very unsuccessful in my goal when switching.
I actually switched to GNU/Linux in college because I wanted to play video games less. This happened right before Proton was released in 2018. Let's just say that I was very unsuccessful in my goal when switching.
Maybe not an excuse for you, but there are still games that don't work out of the box, and the solutions for third party launchers are still fragmented and/or not feature complete, in comparison to its native Windows client. Let's take Heroic Games Launcher for example, looking at GoG: it does not yet track hours played nor achievements (they have work in progress [1]); Lutris on the other hand doesn't even have cloud Sync.
Proton is also no complete, perhaps one day it'll be, it's not quite there yet. I've stumbled on some games that don't work (Obscure 1, Resident Evil 0, Dark Messiah, etc) and games that didn't work in the past but now works, with some flaws that are hard to distinguish between Windows' and Linux's fault (Thief: Deadly Shadows).
[1]: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2023/05/comet-is-an-open-sourc...
Proton is also no complete, perhaps one day it'll be, it's not quite there yet. I've stumbled on some games that don't work (Obscure 1, Resident Evil 0, Dark Messiah, etc) and games that didn't work in the past but now works, with some flaws that are hard to distinguish between Windows' and Linux's fault (Thief: Deadly Shadows).
[1]: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2023/05/comet-is-an-open-sourc...
I feel like just looking at the numbers isn't really a good counter on wether or not a platform is viable.
However gaming is still very much an excuse. On my Steam Deck I even primarily use Windows after not being able to use Game Pass, issues with Kingdom Hearts, and anything through Epic game launcher being a mixed bag.
Proton is great but it really isn't a silver bullet and you may need to go to Windows if you want to play a specific game.
However gaming is still very much an excuse. On my Steam Deck I even primarily use Windows after not being able to use Game Pass, issues with Kingdom Hearts, and anything through Epic game launcher being a mixed bag.
Proton is great but it really isn't a silver bullet and you may need to go to Windows if you want to play a specific game.
I think it's kind of stockholm syndrome what's going on here. Windows users I still know are either so much accustomed to the UX that they see any alternative as bad, even MacOS, or they are clinging to a past which no longer exists.
Anyone, and I really mean this, who has the option tho choose between Windows, MacOS and Linux (KDE / Gnome / some custom thing) chooses one of the latter two. That's speaking of my (medium sized) org of >15k Emps worldwide.
Ads, Forced Edge, Bing, Ultra-Slow file system compared to any other OS, Shady "Driver"-Sites, could go on forever. I agree this comment sounds a bit flamey, if it wasn't just describing the reality. Even MS recommends switching to Linux by now as a replacement for the Win 8 -> Win 10 / 11 upgrade.
Anyone, and I really mean this, who has the option tho choose between Windows, MacOS and Linux (KDE / Gnome / some custom thing) chooses one of the latter two. That's speaking of my (medium sized) org of >15k Emps worldwide.
Ads, Forced Edge, Bing, Ultra-Slow file system compared to any other OS, Shady "Driver"-Sites, could go on forever. I agree this comment sounds a bit flamey, if it wasn't just describing the reality. Even MS recommends switching to Linux by now as a replacement for the Win 8 -> Win 10 / 11 upgrade.
> Anyone, and I really mean this, who has the option tho choose between Windows, MacOS and Linux (KDE / Gnome / some custom thing) chooses one of the latter two.
I have the option and ability to use whatever OS I want, and I like and enjoy Windows. I use Windows for gaming and .NET development, macOS as my daily desktop (RDP to my Windows dev box), Android on my phone, iPadOS and ChromeOS around the house, and Debian on my servers.
I detest ads, but the portions of Windows I object to involve only some cleanup on install. I find the unblockable ads in Android/i(Pad)OS/ChromeOS (e.g. the ads in all of their app stores) far more objectionable than the ones I never see in Windows.
I have the option and ability to use whatever OS I want, and I like and enjoy Windows. I use Windows for gaming and .NET development, macOS as my daily desktop (RDP to my Windows dev box), Android on my phone, iPadOS and ChromeOS around the house, and Debian on my servers.
I detest ads, but the portions of Windows I object to involve only some cleanup on install. I find the unblockable ads in Android/i(Pad)OS/ChromeOS (e.g. the ads in all of their app stores) far more objectionable than the ones I never see in Windows.
The worse part about Windows is x86 compared to ARM based Mac laptops they are like night and day as far as loud fans, heat, speed, responsiveness and battery life.
Even on a fully paid license that I upgraded to Windows 11...I get weird adverts for xbox gaming, one drive, teams was pre-installed, and there's some weird cortana replacement called copilot. Every now and then I'll get another disruptive notification trying to sell me on something. I paid a lot of money for that license.
Never mind that every update will try and reset defaults and it shoves Edge down your throat at every possible opportunity, and you can't change the search engine for a lot of things away from Bing. Who exactly owns my hardware, Microsoft?
It feels like windows is being managed by inexperienced MBAs who are desperate to use their heavily entrenched OS as an ad platform.
I stopped using the built-in Mail app though because it was pretty buggy. Search was useless.
Never mind that every update will try and reset defaults and it shoves Edge down your throat at every possible opportunity, and you can't change the search engine for a lot of things away from Bing. Who exactly owns my hardware, Microsoft?
It feels like windows is being managed by inexperienced MBAs who are desperate to use their heavily entrenched OS as an ad platform.
I stopped using the built-in Mail app though because it was pretty buggy. Search was useless.
how can they train their parasitic AI on your emails if you don't provide it to them?
Probably because the new outlook can only access microsoft servers, so they synchronise icloud to outlook server-side and you only access outlook client-side.
Most likely, but that isn't an excuse and it an incredibly stupid way to build an email client.
MAYBE give the option if for some reason I want to do it. But for it to be the default is a stupid idea. You cannot convince me there is a valid reason for this to be a thing.
MAYBE give the option if for some reason I want to do it. But for it to be the default is a stupid idea. You cannot convince me there is a valid reason for this to be a thing.
It's like that because mobile clients need cooperation from the server to have push notifications, and you can't have IMAP servers cooperate in that regard :-) so the outlook servers fetch the mail for you and then send you the notifications.
I wouldn't have microsoft read my email either, of course. Thankfully in windows you have dozens of clients to choose from.
I wouldn't have microsoft read my email either, of course. Thankfully in windows you have dozens of clients to choose from.
So you poll instead of getting a push?
Thats what my phone does. I could have seen the value of this 10-15 years ago but I don’t see the point now.
It isn’t like this would magically get rid of the delay either, their servers still have to poll before they can send you that notification.
Thats what my phone does. I could have seen the value of this 10-15 years ago but I don’t see the point now.
It isn’t like this would magically get rid of the delay either, their servers still have to poll before they can send you that notification.
You can't realiably poll from a mobile phone. Your app may not be allowed to execute any code, let alone make a network request for hours, or maybe forever.
When I tried the beta, it didn't even support IMAP whatsoever. It only supported Outlook, Gmail, and iCloud Mail.
Priorities straight.
Priorities straight.
Windows just keeps getting worse. 7 was pretty good, 10 is ok, 11 is trash.
Maybe 2024 will be the year of Linux on my desktop.
Maybe 2024 will be the year of Linux on my desktop.
7 was great, 8 was trash, 10 was great, now 11 is trash.
Maybe they’ll see the light with Windows 12
Maybe they’ll see the light with Windows 12
There's no doubt that Microsoft is going to stuff ads in every corner of the OS at this point. Ads on the start menu, in Edge, in Solitaire, and now the replacement for Outlook Express. I don't think the good-bad-good cycle will hold for Windows this time. This seems to be a downward spiral.
Ha, I forgot 8 even existed. I never installed it.
It'll only show ads if you don't pay for O365. And Google do the same with GMail.
I am paying for O365 family so none of my family get that. And I think I paid £59 for it last time with some voucher scamming. That gives everyone, 6 people in my case, 1TB storage, all the office desktop apps. I don't think that's a bad deal, especially compared to the shafting you get from Apple these days for icloud.
I am paying for O365 family so none of my family get that. And I think I paid £59 for it last time with some voucher scamming. That gives everyone, 6 people in my case, 1TB storage, all the office desktop apps. I don't think that's a bad deal, especially compared to the shafting you get from Apple these days for icloud.
So they are trying to strong arm people into paying for a subscription by giving them a worse experience with ads until they do. Paying for it at that point is just letting Microsoft know that they were successful and should continue to implement more ads into things.
I've used Windows 11 and the new Outlook for a while now, but I've never seen a single ad. Not one. Is it because I have Office 365?
If that's the case, Microsoft's strategy is that one way or another it wants some money from you: either the subscription, or the ad revenue. I'd be concerned if I had to see ads while being a paying customer.
If that's the case, Microsoft's strategy is that one way or another it wants some money from you: either the subscription, or the ad revenue. I'd be concerned if I had to see ads while being a paying customer.
I dread the day where my windows 10 machine will automatically upgrade to 11. So far I've been able to decline - even though the "no" button seems to get a bit smaller and better hidden every time. One day I know I'll wake up and it will be windows 11. It will always have been 11. There was no versions before 11.
Part of using windows at this point is learning how to turn off all the bait and switch nonsense and user hostile stuff going on under the hood. There are a lot of programs and scripts out there to turn off telemetry, ads, forced updates and more. Unfortunately it is required to not be at the mercy of your OS updating under you or selling your data behind the scenes.
When I installed my system I literally had to unplug the ethernet to skip the "cloud user" creation.
Maybe I was dumb and missed the "no thank you" button, but it looked like there was no option. Want to create a user, has to be managed online. Thanks and fuck you.
I had to unplug internet, click next, wait 2min for the thing to time out and say "oh well let's create a local user for now we'll try again later". I haven't seen another"try" since but who knows. It probably happened automatically one day as a background task.
Maybe I was dumb and missed the "no thank you" button, but it looked like there was no option. Want to create a user, has to be managed online. Thanks and fuck you.
I had to unplug internet, click next, wait 2min for the thing to time out and say "oh well let's create a local user for now we'll try again later". I haven't seen another"try" since but who knows. It probably happened automatically one day as a background task.
I've already opt-in to the new app and it's already showing the ads.
It's one small text ad, formatted to look like an email message card. I quickly learned to ignore it.
And no one is forcing anyone to use this app. You can use webmail, Thunderbird, etc...
I still prefer this app with the ad to opening gmail in the browser.
It's one small text ad, formatted to look like an email message card. I quickly learned to ignore it.
And no one is forcing anyone to use this app. You can use webmail, Thunderbird, etc...
I still prefer this app with the ad to opening gmail in the browser.
It's funny because you are saying they are STARTING with an insanely bad dark pattern and you're ok with it - where to next?
I'm not sure whats the dark pattern - that the ad looks like an email? I consider that a good thing since it makes it unobtrusive and invisible. Just like google text ads.
I consider it a small price to pay for a nice app.
I consider it a small price to pay for a nice app.
It would be better without an add. Free Outlook will become the default mail app pre installed with Windows, a commercial product that costs actual money. It is just shouldn't have ads. Just like Apple's Mail app doesn't have ads.
Having ad free software should be the norm.
Having ad free software should be the norm.
Good that thunderbird just had some big releases recently. Ready to take over the role i guess.
Still waiting for Movemail support to be restored though. When using apticron it's nice to get upgrade notifications (and other local mail) in Thunderbird rather than when I invoke a command in xterm (which I find very distracting).
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1802145
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1802145
OS ad revenue?
Can anyone find how much revenue is generated in ads from Windows?
All I can find is revenue for Bing.
I'm curious to know if the revenue Windows ads are generating is even worth the reduction in UX and consumer sentiment.
Can anyone find how much revenue is generated in ads from Windows?
All I can find is revenue for Bing.
I'm curious to know if the revenue Windows ads are generating is even worth the reduction in UX and consumer sentiment.
What an excellent reason to rip that app out using Win10Privacy, and run with something more privacy-friendly like Thunderbird.
At this point in time, Apple should be paying microsoft for bringing new people to the Apple ecosystem.
Before switching to Fastmail, I started seeing ads on Outlook for windows, Mac, and OWA since a while back ago as a paying customer, then there’s them on gmail, while paying for google one.
I mean they don’t even care if you are paying.
I mean they don’t even care if you are paying.
Windows needs new management.
I wonder if the eventual plan is to make Windows free for "home" users, and monetize it through ads. In that world, ads in every corner of the OS would be less annoying.
Why would they do that? OEMs already pay for it via agreements and at this point Windows seems to make no effort to do anything if the copy is not activated, so M$FT doesn't care about the few people not paying. Making it free would make no differnece other than killing a revenue source for no benefit. So it is very unlikely to happen.
Why do so many Windows users tolerate shit like this while refusing to consider a much better designed platform that is far more respectful of its users like macOS?
Because you can go to a shop and buy a Windows laptop for 300 dollars. No Mac is as cheap as that.
And subjectively the UI of a Mac is worse than Window's. I liked the menu at the top only on the original Mac with the builtin 9" screen. It started to be a bad choice on the next models with a larger separate monitor. And Windows' UI is worse than the customized Gnome desktop I've been using since 2009.
And subjectively the UI of a Mac is worse than Window's. I liked the menu at the top only on the original Mac with the builtin 9" screen. It started to be a bad choice on the next models with a larger separate monitor. And Windows' UI is worse than the customized Gnome desktop I've been using since 2009.
I use Windows as my personal OS (1-2 hours a day) and macOS as my work OS (8 hours a day, M2 Mac). I would never have macOS as my personal OS because exactly it has a poorly designed UI for my use cases. I need to spend a higher cognitive load with the UI and my day-to-day activities require more clicks or UI interaction time. Additionally, I have less screen real estate and some applications simply won't work on a Mac. I like the hardware, though, just not enough.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm...
Why does Microsoft even bother with a desktop OS these days? They have moved on to The Cloud like everyone else, so people can buy Word and not their OS.
All Windows really has is a long tail of legacy apps (many of which are very good, and people don't want to give up) and games, and that has to look like a dying business model. (Unfortunately, games are pretty sticky, because they own a game console, and everyone wants access to the console. So if Microsoft says "if you port your game to Linux, you can't be on Xbox", Windows is on indefinite life support.)
All Windows really has is a long tail of legacy apps (many of which are very good, and people don't want to give up) and games, and that has to look like a dying business model. (Unfortunately, games are pretty sticky, because they own a game console, and everyone wants access to the console. So if Microsoft says "if you port your game to Linux, you can't be on Xbox", Windows is on indefinite life support.)
>if you port your game to Linux, you can't be on Xbox
Thankfully Proton exists, so technically developers don't have to go out of their way to 'port' to linux :)
Its great that Valve started investing in Linux for gaming, as they are nowhere as misguided by greed like Microsoft is.
Thankfully Proton exists, so technically developers don't have to go out of their way to 'port' to linux :)
Its great that Valve started investing in Linux for gaming, as they are nowhere as misguided by greed like Microsoft is.
Yep, Valve have done so much for Linux gaming!
That said, I know they probably did it because of the threat of the windows store vs steam, but we've really benefited.
That said, I know they probably did it because of the threat of the windows store vs steam, but we've really benefited.
Because it prints money without much effort.
Only if it remains tolerable, though. I think they're playing around with something pretty risky; they don't integrate with any mobile devices, they don't have a web browser that any sites support, etc. and thus there is not much to keep users from switching away. They're objectively no better than Apple for most use cases, except for games and very niche software. It's a very different world than the late 90s, when they had an OS and a browser monopoly.
(Games might not even be a thing for them for much longer. Mobile games are the most accessible, and again Microsoft is not in any position to get revenue from that trend. People that buy consoles or $1900 graphics cards are not nearly as numerous.)
I am surprised that more corporate IT departments haven't switched to Linux. They can still supply the same $300 laptops, lock them down to the point of unusability, and everyone can use Word in the cloud. I'd be scared if I were Microsoft, and wouldn't want to make switching away look attractive to anyone. No ad revenue from untargeted ads in an email client could possibly be worth losing Windows as the "default" OS.
(Games might not even be a thing for them for much longer. Mobile games are the most accessible, and again Microsoft is not in any position to get revenue from that trend. People that buy consoles or $1900 graphics cards are not nearly as numerous.)
I am surprised that more corporate IT departments haven't switched to Linux. They can still supply the same $300 laptops, lock them down to the point of unusability, and everyone can use Word in the cloud. I'd be scared if I were Microsoft, and wouldn't want to make switching away look attractive to anyone. No ad revenue from untargeted ads in an email client could possibly be worth losing Windows as the "default" OS.
>Mobile games are the most accessible, and again Microsoft is not in any position to get revenue from that trend.
Have you been living under a rock that you missed Microsoft's acquisition of Activision-Blizzard, owners of Candy Crush, one of the most popular mobile games?
Microsoft isn't stupid, it knows the future revenue makers are software subscription services and IP and not hardware, which is why it's buying up all the IP it can and building a SW service ecosystem around the likes of Azure and ChatGPT based copilots.
Have you been living under a rock that you missed Microsoft's acquisition of Activision-Blizzard, owners of Candy Crush, one of the most popular mobile games?
Microsoft isn't stupid, it knows the future revenue makers are software subscription services and IP and not hardware, which is why it's buying up all the IP it can and building a SW service ecosystem around the likes of Azure and ChatGPT based copilots.
I'm aware that Microsoft bought Activision-Blizzard. All the kids are playing Genshin Impact and Honkai Star Rail. Microsoft gets 0% of their revenue.
it's just bizarre that there isn't more embarrassment about how much worse we've made our industry. you've fucked up the economics of your global business desktop OS monopoly so badly that now you're adding ads to your free, bundled-with-the-OS-to-kill-Eudora mail client? what in shit?
How many people actually use a desktop email app? I use Outlook for work (mostly because the web client is awful), but outside of that I always access my email in a browser.
Weird decision by Microsoft in my opinion. It seems like the only people that'd bother to setup Windows mail in the first place are power users, and that's the last people you want to piss off with annoying ads.
Weird decision by Microsoft in my opinion. It seems like the only people that'd bother to setup Windows mail in the first place are power users, and that's the last people you want to piss off with annoying ads.
I do use Thunderbird. My mailbox is a POP3 account. I download mail and move it to folders with per sender filters.
That said, 9,999 other people are about to reply that they use GMail or something like that. Maybe 99,999.
That said, 9,999 other people are about to reply that they use GMail or something like that. Maybe 99,999.
There are two Microsofts.
The first one is extremely developer-friendly, and regularly pushes out superb, high-quality tools and frameworks—many of which are free of charge and open-source—and gives nice deep dives into tech. They also develop pretty interesting alternatives to the UNIX ecosystem. Some examples:
- the .NET ecosystem and languages (VB.NET, C#, F#);
- PowerShell (technically this is also a .NET language, but it has made Windows scripting so easy that it deserves a mention on its own);
- ASP.NET Core (again, part of the .NET ecosystem, but it is very far ahead of almost all other web backends (in terms of functionality, performance, and ease-of-development) that it also deserves a separate mention)
- TypeScript;
- Visual Studio Code;
- Visual Studio Community, the MSVC C++ STL, and the MSVC compiler, `cl.exe`;
- Direct3D and DirectXMath;
- WSL
- the Windows API, the Windows driver model, and the Windows ACL model.
Many more that I can't recall off the top of my head.
And there's the pain-in-the-arse, bean-counting Microsoft that justifies adding advertisements, crapware, and generally enshittifying what used to be a superb OS, pushing for software-as-a-service, changing the UX of Office programs every version, not being able to settle on and develop one nice unified UI toolkit for Windows, and (probably therefore) pushing laggy Electron apps like the XBox store, Teams, etc over well-programmed native/.NET ones.
I use and develop on Windows because I grew up on it. I don't want 'an OS as an IDE'. I want an IDE that does an IDE's job well, and I haven't found anything better than Visual Studio's debugger and profiler.
I am torn. Linux is still broken for even slightly edge-case use cases (laptop + monitor of very different pixel densities, and hence different scaling ratios; both X and Wayland fail horribly at this whereas Windows eats it up in a heartbeat). I game regularly and am not keen on virtualising or using Wine/Proton (I am convinced there is a performance drop in the general case), and MacOS is a non-starter for me.
The first one is extremely developer-friendly, and regularly pushes out superb, high-quality tools and frameworks—many of which are free of charge and open-source—and gives nice deep dives into tech. They also develop pretty interesting alternatives to the UNIX ecosystem. Some examples:
- the .NET ecosystem and languages (VB.NET, C#, F#);
- PowerShell (technically this is also a .NET language, but it has made Windows scripting so easy that it deserves a mention on its own);
- ASP.NET Core (again, part of the .NET ecosystem, but it is very far ahead of almost all other web backends (in terms of functionality, performance, and ease-of-development) that it also deserves a separate mention)
- TypeScript;
- Visual Studio Code;
- Visual Studio Community, the MSVC C++ STL, and the MSVC compiler, `cl.exe`;
- Direct3D and DirectXMath;
- WSL
- the Windows API, the Windows driver model, and the Windows ACL model.
Many more that I can't recall off the top of my head.
And there's the pain-in-the-arse, bean-counting Microsoft that justifies adding advertisements, crapware, and generally enshittifying what used to be a superb OS, pushing for software-as-a-service, changing the UX of Office programs every version, not being able to settle on and develop one nice unified UI toolkit for Windows, and (probably therefore) pushing laggy Electron apps like the XBox store, Teams, etc over well-programmed native/.NET ones.
I use and develop on Windows because I grew up on it. I don't want 'an OS as an IDE'. I want an IDE that does an IDE's job well, and I haven't found anything better than Visual Studio's debugger and profiler.
I am torn. Linux is still broken for even slightly edge-case use cases (laptop + monitor of very different pixel densities, and hence different scaling ratios; both X and Wayland fail horribly at this whereas Windows eats it up in a heartbeat). I game regularly and am not keen on virtualising or using Wine/Proton (I am convinced there is a performance drop in the general case), and MacOS is a non-starter for me.
Windows 11... now with more AOL!
Is this 'free' outlook different to the version that ships with O365?
It would be nice of this sort of thing could be made illegal.
In my view, they're committing a crime by unfairly leveraging a monopoly (Windows) to violate antitrust by pushing Bing, Edge, Office 365, and OneDrive.
MSFT-ActivisionBlizzard also shouldn't happen.
MSFT-ActivisionBlizzard also shouldn't happen.
The linked article says nothing about showing ads in "New Outlook." It certainly is not below MS to do so and I believe the submitter, but the linked article does not say a word about it.
New Outlook does have ads, and this move replaces Mail with Outlook therefore the default mail client will now have ads because it's Outlook. You can remove them with a 365 subscription. So while the article doesn't mention it, the statement is true.
Team Thunderbird, gladly supporting and donating.
I would often run Windows on a second machine or at work though, I felt equally productive in both Linux and Windows.
Fast-forward a decade and the Linux desktop situation has improved and the Windows situation has gotten worse, such that switching to Windows 11 is a total non-starter for me.
I dual-boot Windows 10 w/ Ubuntu because of the odd game or two that is beyond Proton's reach, but that happens less and less each day. I'd be willing to bet that I won't need that Windows partition at all soon.