Men are going to brutal boot camps to reclaim their masculinity(usatoday.com)
usatoday.com
Men are going to brutal boot camps to reclaim their masculinity
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/health-wellness/2024/01/22/modern-day-knight-project-videos-men-man-camps/72290454007/
26 comments
> What's missing are meaningful rites of passage.
And role models that tell men that failure is normal and a necessary part of learning, and that some discomfort builds character. That competency and skills deserve respect and recognition. And that you can feel comfortable being alone.
> There are no honest signals of capability. With the diluting of sports and other pursuits, as men our options are reduced to muscle and money, with some credentials that might secure us an institutional job as a distant third.
Video games. Look at labor participation rates for men since 2009. Pretty much all of those men are either in prison or barely getting by sitting at home, playing video games, often sponsored by their parents.
And role models that tell men that failure is normal and a necessary part of learning, and that some discomfort builds character. That competency and skills deserve respect and recognition. And that you can feel comfortable being alone.
> There are no honest signals of capability. With the diluting of sports and other pursuits, as men our options are reduced to muscle and money, with some credentials that might secure us an institutional job as a distant third.
Video games. Look at labor participation rates for men since 2009. Pretty much all of those men are either in prison or barely getting by sitting at home, playing video games, often sponsored by their parents.
>”I sympathize because there is almost nothing men have traditionally done to distinguish themselves where today there isn't a woman calling herself a girl imitating it with a film crew for instagram, and the underlying message is, "this does not distinguish or provide dignity for you anymore because a girl can do it."”
Not exactly sure what you’re trying to say here. Are you implying that because women can do the same thing as men today that it somehow devalues men doing the same work? That because the same work can be done by a woman, that the work now no longer provides any dignity?
Doubt that many women are pushing the narrative that, “men’s work that women are now able to do is no longer dignified work.”
> "A lot of men are lonely because they lack the ability to put emotions into words, which makes it hard for them to form relationships," Levant says. "The inability to put their emotions into words leads to failures in relationships, leads to loneliness, leads to their seeking out these experiences." I'm glad men are seeking this stuff out, and it's a lot more thought out than it was a decade ago. However, this lens quoted above views men as an inferior form of woman and it's too patronizing to engage.
The author is pointing out that some of these men might need help communicating in order to sustain a long term relationship not that “[men are] an inferior form of a woman.” What is that even supposed to mean?
Not exactly sure what you’re trying to say here. Are you implying that because women can do the same thing as men today that it somehow devalues men doing the same work? That because the same work can be done by a woman, that the work now no longer provides any dignity?
Doubt that many women are pushing the narrative that, “men’s work that women are now able to do is no longer dignified work.”
> "A lot of men are lonely because they lack the ability to put emotions into words, which makes it hard for them to form relationships," Levant says. "The inability to put their emotions into words leads to failures in relationships, leads to loneliness, leads to their seeking out these experiences." I'm glad men are seeking this stuff out, and it's a lot more thought out than it was a decade ago. However, this lens quoted above views men as an inferior form of woman and it's too patronizing to engage.
The author is pointing out that some of these men might need help communicating in order to sustain a long term relationship not that “[men are] an inferior form of a woman.” What is that even supposed to mean?
> Are you implying that because women can do the same thing as men today that it somehow devalues men doing the same work? That because the same work can be done by a woman, that the work now no longer provides any dignity?
Specifically, while women are absolutely athletic, a man who competes with women does not get status or dignity for it among other men, or arguably among women either. My original statement has a logical direction your comment reversed.
It's not when women can do the same things that diminishes the status of an activity for men, it's when women do the things men do to demonstrate the activity is not a source of masculine status to them that diminishes the dignity of it. Examples would be things like crossfit, skydiving, dog training, yoga, horsemanship, archery, and other formerly manful activities that are no longer competencies that confer masculine status.
The article was about men doing difficult things together as a way to develop personally and form relationships. It included a criticism based on an assumption that the way women communicate in their friendships was applicable to how men actually relate, and this assumed it's meaningful for men to be held to feminine standards of communication. I'm saying we're different. The article was matronly and not constructive to men finding ways to relate to one another.
Specifically, while women are absolutely athletic, a man who competes with women does not get status or dignity for it among other men, or arguably among women either. My original statement has a logical direction your comment reversed.
It's not when women can do the same things that diminishes the status of an activity for men, it's when women do the things men do to demonstrate the activity is not a source of masculine status to them that diminishes the dignity of it. Examples would be things like crossfit, skydiving, dog training, yoga, horsemanship, archery, and other formerly manful activities that are no longer competencies that confer masculine status.
The article was about men doing difficult things together as a way to develop personally and form relationships. It included a criticism based on an assumption that the way women communicate in their friendships was applicable to how men actually relate, and this assumed it's meaningful for men to be held to feminine standards of communication. I'm saying we're different. The article was matronly and not constructive to men finding ways to relate to one another.
This doesn't sound quite right, muscle and money are way easier to fake, at least to other random individuals, then a degree from a competent engineering program.
It's much more difficult to inspect and determine someone's bank account balances or real muscle strength.
There's even jokes among body builders that most of the superficially impressive 'muscles' nowadays are literally inflated via drugs and other techniques.
It's much more difficult to inspect and determine someone's bank account balances or real muscle strength.
There's even jokes among body builders that most of the superficially impressive 'muscles' nowadays are literally inflated via drugs and other techniques.
I'd be curious how one fakes a deadlift.
You can't force someone to deadlift on camera or in person if they don't want to.
You can however determine quite easily whether someone got a degree at school X even if they don't want to reveal it.
You can however determine quite easily whether someone got a degree at school X even if they don't want to reveal it.
inflatable dumbbells
Socrates did say, "Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior."
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the mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation
i can't take two steps around here without tripping over one of these boot camps. truly, how did we get here?
> It costs $18,000
That would probably be better spent on therapy or hookers.
That would probably be better spent on therapy or hookers.
The Tough Mudder events have been around for decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tough_Mudder / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tough_Guy_Competition
Certainly, endurance events have been a thing for a while. This new flavor is closer to military bootcamp and extreme shared struggle. Have to be broken down to be built back up. It is a natural outcome of questioning self, seeking community and bonding experiences in the current zeitgeist, and the evaporation of traditional third spaces where men might come together traditionally.
It's not clear whether the article is condemning doing difficult things or whether it's specifically against getting verbally abused while you do them. I don't know if I'd enjoy the boot camp instructors yelling at me, but the actual challenges look fun.
Probably better to do it with a group of friends and power yourselves with positivity instead of screeching though.
Probably better to do it with a group of friends and power yourselves with positivity instead of screeching though.
Sounds like fun! Although I'd prefer to build something, like a barn or a house.
As long as I get to think about the Roman Empire a couple times a day. I’m good.
Manipoles! Stone arches!
Manipoles! Stone arches!
So masculinity is submitting to abuse?
I am not sure I understand who would choose to submit to brutality in the goal of becoming more manly!
I am not sure I understand who would choose to submit to brutality in the goal of becoming more manly!
summiting a mountain seems like a better idea...
I'm glad men are seeking this stuff out, and it's a lot more thought out than it was a decade ago. However, this lens quoted above views men as an inferior form of woman and it's too patronizing to engage.
What's missing are meaningful rites of passage. Degrees don't do it anymore because the people who get and confer them aren't peers. I sympathize because there is almost nothing men have traditionally done to distinguish themselves where today there isn't a woman calling herself a girl imitating it with a film crew for instagram, and the underlying message is, "this does not distinguish or provide dignity for you anymore because a girl can do it." There are no honest signals of capability. With the diluting of sports and other pursuits, as men our options are reduced to muscle and money, with some credentials that might secure us an institutional job as a distant third. You need at least one, two and you're laughing, all three and you're into mythical territory.
We're a tournament species, and men need a way to sort ourselves. The men in this article are looking for a way to distinguish themselves among peers.