China Added More Solar Panels in 2023 Than US Did in Its Entire History(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
China Added More Solar Panels in 2023 Than US Did in Its Entire History
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-26/china-added-more-solar-panels-in-2023-than-us-did-in-its-entire-history
45 comments
Hey!
Obviously I don't know your specific needs, or what quotes you got. But I'm willing to venture a guess that you got quotes from the standard solar companies - the ones that serve as all in one stops, project managements, permitting, purchasing, installing, etc. Those services are nuts!
I got a bunch of quotes from many of those types of companies for my own home a few years ago, and they all quoted me around $45k (+/- a few grand depending on the company). Realizing that was way to expensive, I put in a little elbow work and was able to come up with a quote for $18k to do the project management myself - I found a solar reseller (solarwholesale, no idea if they are still around) that quoted me $12k for the panels and installation hardware, plus they'd provide the architecture documents I'd need for permitting, the company that most recently installed my new roof quoted be <$2k to install the solar panels (just the hardware, no electrical connections), I spoke to a local electrician who quoted me ~$2k to do the electrical connections on the panels, the fuse box connections, and connection to the grid, and the remaining $2k was for miscellaneous things like permitting and other things I don't recall exactly.
It was work, but it was work well worth saving $27k compared to what the one-stop-shop solar installers want.
Obviously I don't know your specific needs, or what quotes you got. But I'm willing to venture a guess that you got quotes from the standard solar companies - the ones that serve as all in one stops, project managements, permitting, purchasing, installing, etc. Those services are nuts!
I got a bunch of quotes from many of those types of companies for my own home a few years ago, and they all quoted me around $45k (+/- a few grand depending on the company). Realizing that was way to expensive, I put in a little elbow work and was able to come up with a quote for $18k to do the project management myself - I found a solar reseller (solarwholesale, no idea if they are still around) that quoted me $12k for the panels and installation hardware, plus they'd provide the architecture documents I'd need for permitting, the company that most recently installed my new roof quoted be <$2k to install the solar panels (just the hardware, no electrical connections), I spoke to a local electrician who quoted me ~$2k to do the electrical connections on the panels, the fuse box connections, and connection to the grid, and the remaining $2k was for miscellaneous things like permitting and other things I don't recall exactly.
It was work, but it was work well worth saving $27k compared to what the one-stop-shop solar installers want.
How long did the install take from the time you placed the order to turning the system on?
This highlights the valid time vs money tradeoff - but once you get into the tens of thousands for an improvement/future investment, what's the rush?
I'd be concerned about individual contractors ghosting before or mid-project, throwing the whole plan into jeopardy. I doubt many contractors would be willing to continue someone else's work. Also, storing the materials can be a hassle -- the panels alone would take up half of my garage, for an unknowable amount of time (it takes months to find contractors willing to bid on projects around here).
At least having an experienced general contractor overseeing the project reduces the chance that an individuals' ghosting could cause large delays.
At least having an experienced general contractor overseeing the project reduces the chance that an individuals' ghosting could cause large delays.
What were the system specs?
It depends. If you have an EV that number starts becoming favorable very quickly.
> I could have surely done it for the good of mother earth but financially it made no sense.
This seems like a recurring theme in todays world.
This seems like a recurring theme in todays world.
yes, the labor, permitting, and safety costs are insane. Raw panels are very cheap, and even cheaper in China (<$0.20 per Watt).
If everyone could have a 10KW system for $2,000, they would.
If everyone could have a 10KW system for $2,000, they would.
I would bet the cost of the solar panels was only a fraction of the total costs. The fact of the matter is that individually owned and operated power generation doesn’t make sense for a variety of reasons, which is why we invented the power grid. It would be prohibitively expensive to run your own natural gas turbine at home as well, even though you have a pipe going straight to your house. So instead we build natural gas power plants that turn a profit.
China also built more coal fired power plants in the past year than the rest of the world combined has built in the last decade, and has more operational coal power plants than the rest of the world combined.
China's so called "Commitments" to green energy are just (coal) smoke and mirrors.
China's so called "Commitments" to green energy are just (coal) smoke and mirrors.
The US needs more DIY/small scale solar. I would even advocate "off-grid" DIY solar (no grid tie) and just use batteries as you may be able to avoid permitting and expensive install labor. You can easily get up and running for under $1k.
Right now, it seems any trade work is prohibitively expensive. I recently redid my own garage roof added mini split systems because costs for roofers and HVAC is out of control and finding quality work is hard. I called an electrician out to run the circuits and it was $$$. Next time I'll run the wires myself and just have them do the connections.
Right now, it seems any trade work is prohibitively expensive. I recently redid my own garage roof added mini split systems because costs for roofers and HVAC is out of control and finding quality work is hard. I called an electrician out to run the circuits and it was $$$. Next time I'll run the wires myself and just have them do the connections.
We had it happening in CA. The utilities put a stop to it though by making it not economical unless you’re not tied into the grid at all, and most people don’t have the space for that kind of solar and battery installation.
There's a lot of small-scale solar in rural areas. Pretty much every new barn I see going up has solar panels on the roof. It has to cost less than having the electric company run a new line and meter. Especially so if you only need lighting out there and don't have to run machinery.
Can you expand on your first sentence? Why does the US need diy solar? We don’t operate individual natural gas turbines in every house either for a lot of reasons, instead we invented the grid.
I imagine largely because it can happen much quicker than grid scale projects, as it's a lot easier for thousands of individuals to make modest personal investments, than it is for governments to make huge capital investments. Plus the reduced dependency on the grid would reduce peak loads and improve grid stability for all users.
It’s not clear at all to me that hiring individual contractors piecemeal for 2-8kW of capacity hundreds of thousands to millions of times vs a few MW scale plants dozens of times is quicker to implement. Also power generation is typically not done by the government but by private for profits.
As far as peak load solar doesn’t solve the problem for grid operators because peak electricity demand happens well after the sun stops producing which means that solar users are simultaneously paying less to maintain the grid while also putting the most variable load on the grid. This problem has been very thoroughly explored and debated, it is called the “duck curve” problem. The only solution to the duck curve problem is storage. That puts us back at square 1 where individuals operating small batteries and inverters cannot be as efficient as large scale battery banks that prolong the life of the same batteries through better thermal management and larger and fewer inverters etc.
As far as peak load solar doesn’t solve the problem for grid operators because peak electricity demand happens well after the sun stops producing which means that solar users are simultaneously paying less to maintain the grid while also putting the most variable load on the grid. This problem has been very thoroughly explored and debated, it is called the “duck curve” problem. The only solution to the duck curve problem is storage. That puts us back at square 1 where individuals operating small batteries and inverters cannot be as efficient as large scale battery banks that prolong the life of the same batteries through better thermal management and larger and fewer inverters etc.
Have PV tariffs increased or decreased US solar investment and sales?
Have the Pennsylvanians' solar tariffs helped or hurted American industry and trade relations? Are they still able to compete at internationally competitive price points given the presumed tariff advantage?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_tariffs#Solar_panels
Noting that for example US Steel is soon to no longer be domestically owned; and there the Pennsylvanians' trade protectionism didn't solve either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Steel
Would more tariffs have helped keep US Steel in the US?
Have the Pennsylvanians' solar tariffs helped or hurted American industry and trade relations? Are they still able to compete at internationally competitive price points given the presumed tariff advantage?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_tariffs#Solar_panels
Noting that for example US Steel is soon to no longer be domestically owned; and there the Pennsylvanians' trade protectionism didn't solve either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Steel
Would more tariffs have helped keep US Steel in the US?
Reducing dependency on petroleum is a good idea yes. If not for the environment, then for national and economic interests.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_crisis
List also leaves off things like: WW2 Japan being totally immobilized from lack of oil, Allies not pushing a faster end to Nazi Germany due to fuel limitations, US eastern fleet being threatened by the '73 embargo.
The prosperity and security of the nations of the world should not be beholden to a handful of often unstable oil states.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_crisis
List also leaves off things like: WW2 Japan being totally immobilized from lack of oil, Allies not pushing a faster end to Nazi Germany due to fuel limitations, US eastern fleet being threatened by the '73 embargo.
The prosperity and security of the nations of the world should not be beholden to a handful of often unstable oil states.
If Commies do that, it should prove this isn't some treehugger's fantasy.
Well commies also ordered killing sparrows and so maybe we should do opposite?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign
I remember my kid couldn't sleep for two nights when i told her about that to examplify evils of totalitarianism!
Then I guess the extermination of the wolverines, passenger pigeons, american eagle, american buffalo, etc exemplifies what? The evils of capitalism? The evils of democracy? Not to mention the extermination of the native americans...
What's with all the deranged and obvious propaganda here? Your 'kid' really couldn't sleep for 2 night or did you make it up to push silly propaganda?
What's with all the deranged and obvious propaganda here? Your 'kid' really couldn't sleep for 2 night or did you make it up to push silly propaganda?
I think you’re missing the point.
We shouldn’t look at every action taken by someone we disagree with and think: “let’s do the opposite”
Super relevant in the US today where both sides are unwilling to appreciate anything positive done by the other.
We shouldn’t look at every action taken by someone we disagree with and think: “let’s do the opposite”
Super relevant in the US today where both sides are unwilling to appreciate anything positive done by the other.
Why cherry pick a single bad thing from over 60 years ago? Is that supposed to discredit all actions by the country? One could find just as many examples, if not more, of the US destroying the ecosystem in that same time period.
The US is held back by corporations that demand ever increasing profits and by political parties that roadblock each other such that it cannot focus any substantial effort on meaningful initiatives for change.
The US is held back by corporations that demand ever increasing profits and by political parties that roadblock each other such that it cannot focus any substantial effort on meaningful initiatives for change.
I imagine the reason to cherry pick a single bad thing is because the list of all of them would be too long to be of practical use.
On the other hand, I agree that the person you're responding to didn't make a strong argument by posting something unrelated to solar energy manufacturing and deployment. No more than you did by responding with "but what about the USA...". Neither are helpful, salient, or convincing.
On the other hand, I agree that the person you're responding to didn't make a strong argument by posting something unrelated to solar energy manufacturing and deployment. No more than you did by responding with "but what about the USA...". Neither are helpful, salient, or convincing.
I thought this headline would be cause for celebration and I'm just disappointed to see so many negative comments that reduce the accomplishment down to red scare style jabs.
I only pointed back at the US to help reframe the situation in readers' minds who are mostly US based. The list of environmental damage by the US would also be too long to list so it seems unfair to have comments presenting 1 side without mentioning the other.
I only pointed back at the US to help reframe the situation in readers' minds who are mostly US based. The list of environmental damage by the US would also be too long to list so it seems unfair to have comments presenting 1 side without mentioning the other.
As for parties, well that's not a problem. This is by design. U.S. political system is the way it is to prevent tyranny - not to provide the most efficient or even effective government. The Founding Fathers understood it and it was an acceptable tradeoff. Nothing in America assumes or expects a functioning government able to get things done, society and business exists pretty much on it's own. It's the best thing government can do - do nothing, and provide a good shitshow for the people to watch. A healthy society doesn't need government to babysit it.
Corporations can't "demand" profits, profits are what the market conditions form.
Renewable energy will work in America once it makes more money than fossil fuels for the same input. Business in the U.S. is almost not susceptible to political shit.
Corporations can't "demand" profits, profits are what the market conditions form.
Renewable energy will work in America once it makes more money than fossil fuels for the same input. Business in the U.S. is almost not susceptible to political shit.
I get that the US system was supposed to do all that in theory, but in practice it has been structured to prevent citizens from having any control over anything. It's a form of tyranny masquerading as democracy. Without major reform, we are stuck with whatever politicians these 2 parties put before us and our only choice is the lesser of 2 evils. These parties have similar interests to continue the current, flawed, system and so we are powerless to enact any change.
"Business in the U.S. is almost not susceptible to political shit. "
That's because capitalists control politics. Their profits are more important than social wellbeing.
https://youtu.be/oYodY6o172A?si=6YqkvTpC3EKrp8jd
"Business in the U.S. is almost not susceptible to political shit. "
That's because capitalists control politics. Their profits are more important than social wellbeing.
https://youtu.be/oYodY6o172A?si=6YqkvTpC3EKrp8jd
> Why cherry pick a single bad thing from over 60 years ago?
It was the one I remembered first. Solar panels can be one good thing and the dead sparrows and famine can be one bad ting, and they can balance each out perhaps?
> Is that supposed to discredit all actions by the country?
I didn't say or think of it that way, but you seem to. So, what do you think that action and the following famine exemplifies or points to?
My response was mainly tongue in cheek to the GP's point that communists are somehow the paragon or efficiency and no bullshit attitude.
> The US is held back by corporations that demand ever increasing profits and by political parties that roadblock each other such that it cannot focus any substantial effort on meaningful initiatives for change.
Yeah no doubt. I wonder what a good way forward is there?
It was the one I remembered first. Solar panels can be one good thing and the dead sparrows and famine can be one bad ting, and they can balance each out perhaps?
> Is that supposed to discredit all actions by the country?
I didn't say or think of it that way, but you seem to. So, what do you think that action and the following famine exemplifies or points to?
My response was mainly tongue in cheek to the GP's point that communists are somehow the paragon or efficiency and no bullshit attitude.
> The US is held back by corporations that demand ever increasing profits and by political parties that roadblock each other such that it cannot focus any substantial effort on meaningful initiatives for change.
Yeah no doubt. I wonder what a good way forward is there?
Sorry to be combative, maybe I missed the tongue-in-cheek. My response was mostly because your comment took a headline which should be good news for the world and appeared to frame it negatively just because of their political system.
The 100,000,000 starved is 100,000,000 bad things.
Yes, that happened and it was clearly bad science but scientists know better now. During the same time period, the US was spraying DDT across the country killing off many species including its own bald eagles. I'm still unclear what this has to do with modern China and solar initiatives.
genman(3)
I could have surely done it for the good of mother earth but financially it made no sense.