Study finds that once people use cargo bikes, they like their cars much less(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
Study finds that once people use cargo bikes, they like their cars much less
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/study-finds-that-once-people-use-cargo-bikes-they-like-their-cars-much-less/
89 comments
I use my cargo bicycle every day for everything even if I would not need it. The cargo use case is for carrying children around (e.g. kindergarden) or shopping. I do not have a car, but I have another bicycle but I use that on very few occasions like train travel.
> As Ars' John Timmer noted in a cargo bike review from the fall, cargo bikes are somewhat specialized for what they do—but because of their build, they're definitely second bikes.
Doesn't have to be. What about one bicycle and one bicycle cart (that's also a bicycle caravan) instead of a bicycle and another cargobike!? Like the cart/caravan from https://www.theredpanther.org (shameless plug)
Doesn't have to be. What about one bicycle and one bicycle cart (that's also a bicycle caravan) instead of a bicycle and another cargobike!? Like the cart/caravan from https://www.theredpanther.org (shameless plug)
Riding a long john cargo bike is much nicer than riding a bike with a trailer. Cargo bikes ride almost like a normal bike, it's easier to navigate narrow passages, and parking your cargo bike is easier than parking a bike with trailer. I can walk my cargo bike through doors on my own, it is almost impossible when riding a bike with a trailer.
It takes me 3x as long to get the trailer outside, attach it to my bike, seat the kids etc. than it does with my cargo bike.
Trailer does have bigger capacity, so it is nicer for extended trips. But for everyday riding, a cargo bike is 100x better.
It takes me 3x as long to get the trailer outside, attach it to my bike, seat the kids etc. than it does with my cargo bike.
Trailer does have bigger capacity, so it is nicer for extended trips. But for everyday riding, a cargo bike is 100x better.
True, but the article is explicitly talking about having one bicycle and another cargobike as extra. Not everybody has the money for that, or needs a cargobike everyday of the week. I for one wouldn't move kids in a bicycle trailer, so a cargobike for kids is better.
I might have like a cargo bike if I didn't like on top of a hill.
And if I didn't have 6 months of cold dark weather with snow / ice covering the roads.
I live on the top of a hill and have 6 months of dark cold weather with snow and I use a cargo bike for around 12kms every day. The roads are covered with salt to prevent the ice though. Works fine overall.
> snow / ice covering the roads.
Ice is not problem with studded tires. And isn't snow is usually plowed from the roads so cars or bikes could pass?
Ice is not problem with studded tires. And isn't snow is usually plowed from the roads so cars or bikes could pass?
It only snows when it's warm (say, -10 C). Plows smear the snow into a thin layer. Then a high moves in so the temperature drops and you get asphalt covered in sheer ice that just gets polished by the sun and subsequent plowing.
In some places there's Winter, not just the pause between autumn and spring.
In some places there's Winter, not just the pause between autumn and spring.
They might be for major roads in major cities eventually, but most of the streets are pretty terrible for anything smaller than a car whenever it’s snows periodically.
Have you ever tried cycling in actual Winter, with ice, snow and slush?
Just search "Netherlands bicycle snowing" on Google Images to see how normal it is. The top results show both children and the elderly cycling on ice and slush and snow.
Yes it is normal here, but it is also hilariously fraught with low-stakes peril. Dumpert always has vids of people busting their ass trying to make a turn or they hit an icy patch every year. I've had a couple of falls on ice here and I am not confident of my resilience long term doing that as I get older. So I avoid biking when it is frozen. But since that is only like a week or two out of the year, it is no big deal
I've ridden my bike in pretty much any condition. When it's icy, I ride with lower pressure in the tires, snow and slush is usually doable, the only thing that really sucks is when it gets cold again after a warmer day and the roads or covered with frozen slush, that's where I get off and push my bike.
It really depends on how well the roads are maintained, this winter they were quite good at clearing the snow in my city, so it wasn't much of an issue.
It really depends on how well the roads are maintained, this winter they were quite good at clearing the snow in my city, so it wasn't much of an issue.
Yup, I do it every Scandinavian winter on a beater mountain bike that I have an extra set of wheels with studded tyres for the sketchiest days of ice-y conditions. When it's just snow/packed snow the usual deep grooved MTB tyres handle it quite well.
Yes. Not too much in slush though, it was usually far too cold for there to be any slush.
I took the bus when it got to -30, though. Or, as they reported it then, a wind chill of 2400 watts per square meter.
I took the bus when it got to -30, though. Or, as they reported it then, a wind chill of 2400 watts per square meter.
Personally yes, every day to the train station on my way to work.
The bike paths are a bit less busy but basically nobody changes their behavior except to go slower around the icy corners.
This is in Netherlands
The bike paths are a bit less busy but basically nobody changes their behavior except to go slower around the icy corners.
This is in Netherlands
Bit less busy == many folks changing their behavior.
I mean yeah some switch to transit, but there are still lots of people on bikes. I guess I shouldn’t have said nobody changes their behavior, but rather that it’s common and totally fine to ride in those conditions, as evidenced by many people doing it in my daily commute.
Sorry, my comment was pedantic and unhelpful.
Better comment:
I'd think that many people still commuting, doesn't erase the fact that cargo bikes (the thread topic) don't do well in those conditions.
And a critical factor is, hills. I live in a countryside that alternates between flatlands and all-hills. The towns are all around rivers (the pioneers needed water) and built close to them, and it's very hilly around rivers.
So here our experience is different from, say, the flattest country on earth.
Better comment:
I'd think that many people still commuting, doesn't erase the fact that cargo bikes (the thread topic) don't do well in those conditions.
And a critical factor is, hills. I live in a countryside that alternates between flatlands and all-hills. The towns are all around rivers (the pioneers needed water) and built close to them, and it's very hilly around rivers.
So here our experience is different from, say, the flattest country on earth.
I live in Tromsø and I'd say the amount of bikes, which is high, barely drops during winter. They just swap tires.
have you?
If you find cycling up hill difficult then an electric cargo bike should solve that problem for you.
Bicycles are good, if yours don't get stolen while you're in the supermarket to get salad dressing.
Bicycles are good, but America lacks any real infrastructure and I'm not foolish enough to share the road with cars.
These things love to quote stats from some of the flattest places on earth.
For context the highest point in the Netherlands is 322m and the highest point in San Francisco is only 40m less at 283m.
I don’t think that says anything useful about the topology of the places relative to cycling. What’s the average ascent on a 10km cycle around San Francisco? My guess is that it’s something like 20 meters in Amsterdam.
The survey was strategically done in late Summer. I concede some people could still do their shopping in Hamburg's raining 2°C, but I'd guess the comparison charts would not be as cheerful.
I found it bizarre that "weather-independence" was one of the least important metrics. I commuted by bike for years and it's miserable in wind and rain. The numbers of fellow cyclists varied massively depending on the weather.
Bike ≠ e-bike. My e-bike makes commuting in teeming rain kind of fun - with appropriate rain gear only my hands and face get wet, and there's very little physical effort. Trying to do the same ride on a pushbike is indeed miserable.
I'm about as enthusiastic a bike user as you'll find but I've never found 'rain kind of fun', especially not on longer distances (>40 km, my 'regular' road trip is 64K there and back for 128 in total). The road gets slippery, other people (in cars) pay less attention and have less visibility, you get soaked and if you're not careful you can get undercooled even on relatively warm days. Cold weather: no problem, wet weather: if I can avoid it I will.
I'm talking about a 10 minute 4km commute, not a multi-hour trek (which doesn't sound fun to me in any weather). I really do find it fun, and I really do only get my hands and face wet. Gumboots, rain pants, rain jacket, backpack cover, helmet cover: no way to get soaked or even damp.
In Perth Western Australia my commute is about 25km. and at best a little over an hour to ride by bike down the bike paths along side the freeway.
today it was 25 deg C at 6am and over 32 deg C at 5pm when I would have to ride home.
I'll ride it every now and again, but honestly its too much to do on a regular basis.
today it was 25 deg C at 6am and over 32 deg C at 5pm when I would have to ride home.
I'll ride it every now and again, but honestly its too much to do on a regular basis.
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In hannover we have daily bike counters at certain bike lanes. The numbers go up and down depending on temperature and rain. Guess it depends on the options one has. If you still have a car you will not use the bike in the rain.
I have a car, it's use doesn't depend on the weather, but distance & stuff to carry (no cargo bike)
No such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing. Bike ponchos are a game changer for dealing with rain. I actively enjoy biking in bad weather.
And my kid/dog sit nice and dry under the hood of the cargo area.
And my kid/dog sit nice and dry under the hood of the cargo area.
Some weather will get your poncho tightly wrapped around your head. "Deadliest catch" style overalls are more fitting, and it's not the best to walk around in.
I've ridden motorbikes for many years in a subtropical city, had all the right rain gear and it still sucked to ride in the rare +5°C rain. Even southern Germany gets snow and icy rain, good luck clothing for that.
I've ridden motorbikes for many years in a subtropical city, had all the right rain gear and it still sucked to ride in the rare +5°C rain. Even southern Germany gets snow and icy rain, good luck clothing for that.
I live in southern Germany and have no problems clothing.
For rain and wet or very cold conditions I use rain trousers (insulate as well) and often my rain jacket.
5° rain is one of the best rain weather's, because you don't sweat easily just wearing rain cloths above your indoor cloths.
A much bigger problem here is cycling paths not being maintained in the winter and salt on the roads.
A much bigger problem here is cycling paths not being maintained in the winter and salt on the roads.
Someone needs to make an active air-conditioned suit for motorbike riders that uses electricity from the bike.
Edit: of course it already exists: https://newatlas.com/entrosys-motorcycle-airconditioner-revi...
Edit: of course it already exists: https://newatlas.com/entrosys-motorcycle-airconditioner-revi...
That's a gimmick, these were never sold in any quantity.
If it's hot and humid there's just no way to ride in appropriately protective gear.
South East Asia solution is to ride in shorts and flip-flops, with expected results in even minor falls.
Maybe something more like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_cooling_and_ventilation...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_cooling_and_ventilation...
Where I live, enough clothes for the coldest days (negative tens in F!) means you could not possibly get on a bike.
Whoever came up with that quote didn't live where tornadoes are common.
Recently moved into the city (Vienna) from the country, finding myself in the delightful situation that I can walk everywhere I need to go - groceries, entertainment, shopping, etc. I simply don't need a car. I find myself actively yearning to ride my bicycle everywhere.
So I think also just changing your environment to a more walking-friendly one is another great way to ditch the car. What a pity so few in the Western world can experience the delights of their own self-locomotion being sufficient to their daily needs ..
So I think also just changing your environment to a more walking-friendly one is another great way to ditch the car. What a pity so few in the Western world can experience the delights of their own self-locomotion being sufficient to their daily needs ..
> What a pity so few in the Western world can experience the delights of their own self-locomotion being sufficient to their daily needs ..
Most countries do indeed have cities and high-population areas that support this, and many folks do experience it.
I lived that life for ~15 years, and it was truly great at the time. Turns out I started disliking the sheer density, and prefer to be slightly more self sufficient.
Most countries do indeed have cities and high-population areas that support this, and many folks do experience it.
I lived that life for ~15 years, and it was truly great at the time. Turns out I started disliking the sheer density, and prefer to be slightly more self sufficient.
I found living in London for a short while feels like a prison of sorts.( It is amazing of course. Not knocking the place over all!) But it is a subtle effect but the lack of walking through a field every now and then (not a over populated park!) and seeing a horizon is something I missed deeply in the subconscious.
Some cities especially near the ocean or just less dense etc. are not as encaging.
Also walking everywhere is good and bad. Getting a lot of shopping home a car is much better at. Maybe one of those cargo bikes had I know of its existence would have done the trick! But walking for everything can be tiring. Depends on your health level.
Some cities especially near the ocean or just less dense etc. are not as encaging.
Also walking everywhere is good and bad. Getting a lot of shopping home a car is much better at. Maybe one of those cargo bikes had I know of its existence would have done the trick! But walking for everything can be tiring. Depends on your health level.
Vienna is a nice city when it comes to the public transport and city planning. Unfortunately it is not universally true in Europe.
One thing I did not appreciate until I got an electric cargo bike is how they are faster than cars for typical city journeys if there’s any level of traffic.
I live in a city of 5 million people and if I needed to get across town in a hurry I’d take my cargo bike, not my car.
My cargo bike usually beats the google maps car estimate by about 20%.
I live in a city of 5 million people and if I needed to get across town in a hurry I’d take my cargo bike, not my car.
My cargo bike usually beats the google maps car estimate by about 20%.
How is the air quality in your city? Can you use some road network outside of the main traffic lanes?
I've seen this study before that claims that air pollution is worse for car drivers[1][2] than cyclists and pedestrians. If that's true a cargo bike is going to be a win over driving if air quality is an issue for you.
Take with a pinch of salt though, I can also see counter studies[3].
1. https://www.slideshare.net/JamesTate22/exposure-to-the-traff...
2. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00489...
3. https://www.eauc.org.uk/cyclists_on_busy_roads_
Take with a pinch of salt though, I can also see counter studies[3].
1. https://www.slideshare.net/JamesTate22/exposure-to-the-traff...
2. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00489...
3. https://www.eauc.org.uk/cyclists_on_busy_roads_
In older cars without cabin filters, it makes sense that air pollution is at least as bad inside the car as it is outside, it is, after all, the same air.
But modern cars usually have cabin filters, which, if good enough, well maintained, and leak-free, should result in a significant improvement. I know Tesla made it a marketing point for the Model X, but I believe all cars built in the last decade or two have at least some kind of filtration.
But modern cars usually have cabin filters, which, if good enough, well maintained, and leak-free, should result in a significant improvement. I know Tesla made it a marketing point for the Model X, but I believe all cars built in the last decade or two have at least some kind of filtration.
On top of this you can close the circulation in cars. Something I often do and something that is not possible when cycling. I can choose routes that don't pass major city intersections but if that is not the case then it is clear disadvantage for cyclists. Electric cars will tremendously improve the situation and make more routes viable for cyclists.
Melbourne has a lot of cars but the air quality is nonetheless good by world standards.
The roads are car-dominated and not very friendly to bike on. There are a few bike trails which are great, but they aren't well-connected to each other, so aren't useful unless there happens to be one exactly where you want to go.
The roads are car-dominated and not very friendly to bike on. There are a few bike trails which are great, but they aren't well-connected to each other, so aren't useful unless there happens to be one exactly where you want to go.
gotta love meaningless lines in these charts linking together variables that have nothing to do with each others
I feel like if you make a study with any conclusions, some article will cite it as fact.
You can make a good study about that...
I wish I had the space to keep it.
That's bollocks, it's more that the vast majority of people who buys a cargo bike is a bike enthusiast to start with.
Case in point I am not, I was convinced to buy a cargo bike, and I still like my car very much, particularly when it's rainy and/or cold
Still like the bike in warm summer days, but in winter... only car
Case in point I am not, I was convinced to buy a cargo bike, and I still like my car very much, particularly when it's rainy and/or cold
Still like the bike in warm summer days, but in winter... only car
I use my cargo bicycle everyday because I never bothered to buy a car after Uni and cars where I live would be a major pain because of traffic and parking near my flat. I do have car sharing though. I would not consider me a bike enthusiast, but I like to get my metabolism going in the morning compared to car travel. Weather is no problem, you just need to dress accordingly. Many people in my city do cycle everyday. I play basketball twice a week and 80% of the players arrive by bicycle.
Many people live in places where weather is not favorable. Also in your example these are people who actively prefer physically active lifestyle - it's called selection bias, and I bet that they don't have long commute.
Nothing against bicycles here, just pointing out that it is not a solution for everyone.
Nothing against bicycles here, just pointing out that it is not a solution for everyone.
Weather should work for most places in the world:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URMQ0d286hY
Well, basically it all comes down to density and infrastructure if people will use other means of transportation. Bicycle accounts for 1/3 of all trips city wide.
Forcing people to active by either (partly) walking or cycling has great benefits for the public.
Well, basically it all comes down to density and infrastructure if people will use other means of transportation. Bicycle accounts for 1/3 of all trips city wide.
Forcing people to active by either (partly) walking or cycling has great benefits for the public.
Careful. Because it works in a very cold place doesn't mean it works in a place that is not as cold.
Here (Pacific Northwest coastal areas) winters don't get cold enough for long enough to freeze the ground. We don't get a lot of snow but when we do it often starts as snow that is barely frozen. It melts and we get a layer of water on top of roads. Then if the air temperature drops to near freezing as the storm progresses that layer of water freezes, and gets covered with snow, We end up with snow on top of big patches of ice.
Compare to places where they get frozen ground and the air too spends a lot of time below freezing. They get snow on top of frozen ground instead of snow on top of an ice layer.
Fortunately we only get days where the air is cold enough to keep the ground heat from keeping the ground clear a few days a year and with plenty of warning so most people can just avoid traveling then.
Here (Pacific Northwest coastal areas) winters don't get cold enough for long enough to freeze the ground. We don't get a lot of snow but when we do it often starts as snow that is barely frozen. It melts and we get a layer of water on top of roads. Then if the air temperature drops to near freezing as the storm progresses that layer of water freezes, and gets covered with snow, We end up with snow on top of big patches of ice.
Compare to places where they get frozen ground and the air too spends a lot of time below freezing. They get snow on top of frozen ground instead of snow on top of an ice layer.
Fortunately we only get days where the air is cold enough to keep the ground heat from keeping the ground clear a few days a year and with plenty of warning so most people can just avoid traveling then.
What is their accident rate during winter? Cycling on ice is something I definitely will avoid even when the wheels are spiked.
I have seen this passive/aggressive policing in my city against the car commuters (I'm using public transport mainly) while the main cause of the problem is not the commuters but the city that doesn't encourage enough residential real estate development near the large office hubs.
I have seen this passive/aggressive policing in my city against the car commuters (I'm using public transport mainly) while the main cause of the problem is not the commuters but the city that doesn't encourage enough residential real estate development near the large office hubs.
City does a reasonable jobs getting rid of ice and snow. My guess the increase is not higher as with other modes of transportation.
"Study finds ..."
"That's bollocks, I still like my car very much"
A completely valid study can find something to be true, one person's anecdote doesn't change the result.
Doesn't mean this isn't a valid study, but "it's bollocks because I don't think so" is not really a scientific reaction
"That's bollocks, I still like my car very much"
A completely valid study can find something to be true, one person's anecdote doesn't change the result.
Doesn't mean this isn't a valid study, but "it's bollocks because I don't think so" is not really a scientific reaction
True and to further nit pick, a study‘s conclusion is not always a fact.
By now we know that Studies confuse correlation with causation, fail to isolate correctly, are paid for by vested interests, are not reproducible or fabricated
Not to be too tin foil but that’s how it is, so it’s ok to call BS but I get your view that calling anything we don’t like BS leads no where
By now we know that Studies confuse correlation with causation, fail to isolate correctly, are paid for by vested interests, are not reproducible or fabricated
Not to be too tin foil but that’s how it is, so it’s ok to call BS but I get your view that calling anything we don’t like BS leads no where
While this might be true, you'd have to study that as well to be sure. So essentially the question is what would happen if you for instance in a city take people from across the population and force them to use a cargo bike.
That is a study I'd sponsor :D
Joking apart (for I am joking, I'd never sponsor something that forces people to do things they don't want) My only point is that whenever I read something like this... well it stinks, because it goes against what I perceive as common sense.
Someone took my first comment too seriously, my point being that after so many studies read, weighted, measured and found wanting... I don't want to waste my time reading something that doesn't pass the smell test.
Who did they interview? People who have cargo bikes Do they like them? Yes they bought them and either liked them to begin with, or are rationalizing, then there is a minority who's objective.
Ask people with Mercedes what's the car brand they like the most.
For example: I drive an Alfa Romeo and once I was stopped by a guy (in Germany) that asked me if I wanted to join a Italian Car Club... and he was the proud driver of a FIAT Tipo, not a car I'd buy for it's beauty or one I'd show in a car club, yet he liked it, and we are discussing a study that hinges on what people like?
EDIT: just to say... I agree with you, there's a bit of selection bias at work here
Joking apart (for I am joking, I'd never sponsor something that forces people to do things they don't want) My only point is that whenever I read something like this... well it stinks, because it goes against what I perceive as common sense.
Someone took my first comment too seriously, my point being that after so many studies read, weighted, measured and found wanting... I don't want to waste my time reading something that doesn't pass the smell test.
Who did they interview? People who have cargo bikes Do they like them? Yes they bought them and either liked them to begin with, or are rationalizing, then there is a minority who's objective.
Ask people with Mercedes what's the car brand they like the most.
For example: I drive an Alfa Romeo and once I was stopped by a guy (in Germany) that asked me if I wanted to join a Italian Car Club... and he was the proud driver of a FIAT Tipo, not a car I'd buy for it's beauty or one I'd show in a car club, yet he liked it, and we are discussing a study that hinges on what people like?
EDIT: just to say... I agree with you, there's a bit of selection bias at work here
Depends.
Electric cargo bikes could replace a lot of 'city' traffic for many people. Definitely in countries like Belgium / The Netherlands where there is a bigger cycling culture.
It mostly handles the use-case of "larger grocery shopping".
The long distance travelling is still the one that will require most people to own a car.
TLDR: From my observation. I use my car for 2 things:
- Larger shopping for cheaper goods ( supermarket). Electric Cargo bikes could fix this.
- Further distances > 20 km.
Edit: After my comment, I started reading the article and it's similar to what the article claims:
> It's not likely to totally replace your car, nor will it probably be your only bike. But access to a cargo bike can reduce car trips, and even car ownership, a study from Germany suggests.
Electric cargo bikes could replace a lot of 'city' traffic for many people. Definitely in countries like Belgium / The Netherlands where there is a bigger cycling culture.
It mostly handles the use-case of "larger grocery shopping".
The long distance travelling is still the one that will require most people to own a car.
TLDR: From my observation. I use my car for 2 things:
- Larger shopping for cheaper goods ( supermarket). Electric Cargo bikes could fix this.
- Further distances > 20 km.
Edit: After my comment, I started reading the article and it's similar to what the article claims:
> It's not likely to totally replace your car, nor will it probably be your only bike. But access to a cargo bike can reduce car trips, and even car ownership, a study from Germany suggests.
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paganel(2)
I've never had a bird take a shit inside of my car. It's also pretty neat how you can lock the cargo space.
Locking doesn't deter thieves in several locales ...
tell me you don’t have a convertible without telling me you don’t have a convertible
Sure, I guess? A roofless car seems like a really dumb idea.