Ask HN: Best "entry tech" jobs to learn coding?
39 comments
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this topic and I've come to the conclusion that the best generic advice for folks in your situation is to be under-employed, ie a job where you're not maxed out mentally/emotionally/physically, and save your resources to learn on your own.
Entry-level technical jobs are some of the worst jobs to help you ramp up as a programmer. It's chaotic, demanding, emotionally taxing, and a lot of blind leading the blind. And most importantly, employers expect you to perform "just in time" learning, which is detrimental long-term if you don't yet have strong foundations.
Here's an article I wrote a few years ago about Learning at Work: https://medium.com/launch-school/learning-at-work-c81b6866b0...
Of course, map these thoughts to your specific situation.
Entry-level technical jobs are some of the worst jobs to help you ramp up as a programmer. It's chaotic, demanding, emotionally taxing, and a lot of blind leading the blind. And most importantly, employers expect you to perform "just in time" learning, which is detrimental long-term if you don't yet have strong foundations.
Here's an article I wrote a few years ago about Learning at Work: https://medium.com/launch-school/learning-at-work-c81b6866b0...
Of course, map these thoughts to your specific situation.
I agree. I don't think anyone can get a job not knowing anything.
It's best to keep up your energy and learn on your own time and interest.
Pick projects that you're interested in. A website, a small little todo app, a small game. These introduce fundamentals in a setting you enjoy. You'll do a ton of things wrong, know you did them wrong, and the recognition of that provides all the next steps you need.
Five to ten projects later, you'll be ready to start taking some small jobs. Open source tickets. Charity work.
Do this a little bit longer and you'll be set.
It's fundamentally about doing projects you enjoy though. You need to take interest and defend that interest long enough to overcome the stresses and the road bumps.
You can do it!
It's best to keep up your energy and learn on your own time and interest.
Pick projects that you're interested in. A website, a small little todo app, a small game. These introduce fundamentals in a setting you enjoy. You'll do a ton of things wrong, know you did them wrong, and the recognition of that provides all the next steps you need.
Five to ten projects later, you'll be ready to start taking some small jobs. Open source tickets. Charity work.
Do this a little bit longer and you'll be set.
It's fundamentally about doing projects you enjoy though. You need to take interest and defend that interest long enough to overcome the stresses and the road bumps.
You can do it!
Why don't you try to write scripts or code to automate your day to day activities as a paralegal? Working on something close to an area of expertise of yours can be a great way to learn and still use your background somehow.
Either create something new or try to use/collaborate something open source. As you get more experience you'll get to learn more about different options such as frontend vs backend.
Once you are done with your second or third personal project I promise you'll have the confidence to apply to an IT job and you'll have a better idea exactly where and doing what.
Either create something new or try to use/collaborate something open source. As you get more experience you'll get to learn more about different options such as frontend vs backend.
Once you are done with your second or third personal project I promise you'll have the confidence to apply to an IT job and you'll have a better idea exactly where and doing what.
In all honesty, at the rate LLM coding ability is increasing I am not sure how many entry level roles will be left for people who don’t have a solid grounding in computer science.
Generally speaking, I believe this is a bad thing as coding careers have historically been open to anybody with the aptitude.
I’m not sure anybody can provide solid advice beyond “don’t give money to a boot camp”.
Generally speaking, I believe this is a bad thing as coding careers have historically been open to anybody with the aptitude.
I’m not sure anybody can provide solid advice beyond “don’t give money to a boot camp”.
Don't try getting into QA in a hope to move to software engineering. It does not work well and QA line in the CV could easily make it toxic for much more interesting areas.
Instead take some full Uni course (bachelor min) in Computer Science or Software Engineering. That is the right way.
Why do you want from moving to coding from the paralegal? It has probably much lower financial bounds comparing to paralegal, with similarly high stress and very long working hours.
Instead take some full Uni course (bachelor min) in Computer Science or Software Engineering. That is the right way.
Why do you want from moving to coding from the paralegal? It has probably much lower financial bounds comparing to paralegal, with similarly high stress and very long working hours.
I’d add support to that as well. A lot of places will try and sell the job with the promise of a possible move into dev. But once you are in those roles moving is incredibly hard. And as stated - it is poison on your CV.
Frontend dev seems like a low complexity environment to start in, you'll also get exposure to backend devs and their code.
You could also try some freelance gig work on one of those platforms all over the internet.
It's not easy b/c usually companies don't pay you to learn, you should already know at least a subset of what you're hired to do. But I agree getting paid to learn is nice :)
Oh, also maybe focus on Leetcode. Company's these days don't really test you on your ability to code but rather to solve algorithmic brain teasers. Passing the interview != knowing how to code.
You could also try some freelance gig work on one of those platforms all over the internet.
It's not easy b/c usually companies don't pay you to learn, you should already know at least a subset of what you're hired to do. But I agree getting paid to learn is nice :)
Oh, also maybe focus on Leetcode. Company's these days don't really test you on your ability to code but rather to solve algorithmic brain teasers. Passing the interview != knowing how to code.
> Frontend dev seems like a low complexity environment to start in
Was that a joke, seems like some pretty famous last words! Hahah!
Was that a joke, seems like some pretty famous last words! Hahah!
Well I mean relatively. The compile-debug loop is much shorter in frontend so at least it's easier to understand what's going on. Admittedly CSS/React/all the frameworks make it a difficult beast as well.
I’d rather a junior dev completely destroy a front-end environment than a back-end environment.
For what it's worth, I went to a coding bootcamp in 2012. From there, I found people who were willing to pay me money to do software development as a Freelancer.
I did countless events, I listed my services in local blogs.
This leadup to becoming CTO of a startup. 8 years later here we are.
This was in Chicago.
It was one of the best decisions I ever made.
I also did an iOS bootcamp in 2014, mostly because clients kept asking for mobile and I didn't like the hybrid mobile platforms.
I did countless events, I listed my services in local blogs.
This leadup to becoming CTO of a startup. 8 years later here we are.
This was in Chicago.
It was one of the best decisions I ever made.
I also did an iOS bootcamp in 2014, mostly because clients kept asking for mobile and I didn't like the hybrid mobile platforms.
When I got hired as an associate engineer in 2015 the job was 50% coding and 50% technical customer support. 2 of us got hired at the same time and we would switch off weeks.
On customer support weeks I would take bug reports from customers, repro them, write down the repro steps, then try to figure out the right engineer to take it to. Eventually I started going deeper to try to find what part of the codebase was broken, then eventually I tried actually fixing the bugs myself. It was a great way to slowly ease into a real production codebase while simultaneously providing some actual value to the company without having to deliver features. It gave me a ton of customer empathy that I’ve carried with me through the rest of my career.
I did this for about a year before I was competent enough to get promoted to regular engineer and focus on product work full time.
Idk if any other companies do it like that but it was a really great way to upskill very green engineers.
On customer support weeks I would take bug reports from customers, repro them, write down the repro steps, then try to figure out the right engineer to take it to. Eventually I started going deeper to try to find what part of the codebase was broken, then eventually I tried actually fixing the bugs myself. It was a great way to slowly ease into a real production codebase while simultaneously providing some actual value to the company without having to deliver features. It gave me a ton of customer empathy that I’ve carried with me through the rest of my career.
I did this for about a year before I was competent enough to get promoted to regular engineer and focus on product work full time.
Idk if any other companies do it like that but it was a really great way to upskill very green engineers.
Contribute to open source. Alot of projects have a "Good First Issue" tag. This will give you actual work you can show. I have known people who were hired on the basis of their GitHub contributions alone, where the employer said not to worry about sending in a Resume.
This is harder said than done, at least one some situations. The most ideal situation is where you are using a app, tool or a library, you find a bug or missing feature and you "scratch an itch" using your knowledge of the app, tool or library and software development.
Asking a novice to trawl the open internet or github looking for "good first issue" isn't a high probability road to success. Sure some may succeed, but likely most (I'm guessing here, I don't have actual numbers) will succumb to any number of barriers or deterrents that will end up giving them little or even negative benefit.
Here's a video, with a very unfortunate clickbaity title, that gives more info about the issues with suggesting "good first issue" type work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nY_cy8zcO4
Asking a novice to trawl the open internet or github looking for "good first issue" isn't a high probability road to success. Sure some may succeed, but likely most (I'm guessing here, I don't have actual numbers) will succumb to any number of barriers or deterrents that will end up giving them little or even negative benefit.
Here's a video, with a very unfortunate clickbaity title, that gives more info about the issues with suggesting "good first issue" type work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nY_cy8zcO4
I think people should contribute to code which they are little bit familiar. For example, if i am using some tools and it is not behaving as I expect, I can contribute on it. Otherwise, they will just waste maintainers time and resource with low quality PR.
I've seen three different paths over the years from friends and colleagues that moved into SWE from non-coding roles via getting in the door in a "technical role" that can help develop the skills you need:
1) Data Science: the requirements and depth of knowledge vary from company-to-company, and many DS roles end up being more basic reporting / data collection tasks, but if you're interested in a more backend heavy role, data engineering, and/or AI/ML engineering type role, this would be a great way to get the foot in the door. That said, of the three options here, I think this one requires the most time investment in the role before making a lateral move to SWE.
2) Solutions, or Sales, Engineering: depending upon the company the coding expectations can vary, but you would have the opportunity to hack together solutions for real Customers - sometimes even earning sales commission as part of your pay! The ability to network closely with Sales teams and Customers is valuable experience that would transfer to many other tech roles if you decide SWE isn't for you.
3) SWE Internships: requires the most upfront investment in self-education and practice, and pay is obviously lower, but you gain actual experience in the role, can add projects to your resume, and network in the space.
1) Data Science: the requirements and depth of knowledge vary from company-to-company, and many DS roles end up being more basic reporting / data collection tasks, but if you're interested in a more backend heavy role, data engineering, and/or AI/ML engineering type role, this would be a great way to get the foot in the door. That said, of the three options here, I think this one requires the most time investment in the role before making a lateral move to SWE.
2) Solutions, or Sales, Engineering: depending upon the company the coding expectations can vary, but you would have the opportunity to hack together solutions for real Customers - sometimes even earning sales commission as part of your pay! The ability to network closely with Sales teams and Customers is valuable experience that would transfer to many other tech roles if you decide SWE isn't for you.
3) SWE Internships: requires the most upfront investment in self-education and practice, and pay is obviously lower, but you gain actual experience in the role, can add projects to your resume, and network in the space.
Take Norvigs advice which is, mostly, to not be in a rush (if you can economically afford it). Learn it on the side, make sure it is and stays fun.
Trying to get a job early is likely to be frustrating.
Trying to get a job early is likely to be frustrating.
Jobs that are hard to fill will often teach you how to program, because it’s a better value for the employer to burn money on the right people on that education ramp up than spending equivalent time and money finding a less strong fit whom is already trained.
This is the position I am in. Last year I was laid off from a job writing JavaScript. I made a promise to myself to never write JavaScript as an employee ever again. A different group eventually picked me up to learn something unrelated just because I had all the required criteria and 15 years of experience writing software.
I have chosen to abandon writing JavaScript after 15 years because it’s extremely immature. I love the language and what you can do with it but most people writing JavaScript professionally absolutely hate writing software. They tend to be interested primarily in code vanity and tools because they are insecure about writing original code. If I were interested primarily in trends and fashion I wouldn’t write code for a living. Beware of people claiming to want to do something, such as write code, but actually hate doing it.
This is the position I am in. Last year I was laid off from a job writing JavaScript. I made a promise to myself to never write JavaScript as an employee ever again. A different group eventually picked me up to learn something unrelated just because I had all the required criteria and 15 years of experience writing software.
I have chosen to abandon writing JavaScript after 15 years because it’s extremely immature. I love the language and what you can do with it but most people writing JavaScript professionally absolutely hate writing software. They tend to be interested primarily in code vanity and tools because they are insecure about writing original code. If I were interested primarily in trends and fashion I wouldn’t write code for a living. Beware of people claiming to want to do something, such as write code, but actually hate doing it.
Is this mainly overuse of trendy packages and frameworks through npm and similar? What exactly is bad about writing JavaScript as an employee?
I would ask ChatGPT on how to automate your job using python. (like whenever you need to do anything more than once) and write scripts for you and then let it explain the script for you. and learn from there. Otherwise I currently do not know a job that teaches you how to code from the start. Was a thing years ago, but this has sadly changed.
You are a paralegal, which means you have some great domain knowledge.
You need to find a place that will value that lack of technical knowledge enough to overlook beginner tech skills.
Maybe an AI legal automation company needs a product manager, or a data scientist. Sometimes have people in your team with great generic tech skills but really value some who can make sensible assumptions based on deep knowledge of the problem you are trying to solve.
Consider identifying a bunch of companies that need your legal skills and writing to e.g. the ceo if it's a small startup asking for them this very question.
Regarding QA, which is a real possibility... automated testing needs a certain level of coding and Web development knowledge + automation frameworks. You can tell from the job ad whether those skills are highly emphasised or not. A lot of qa people don't have them.
You need to find a place that will value that lack of technical knowledge enough to overlook beginner tech skills.
Maybe an AI legal automation company needs a product manager, or a data scientist. Sometimes have people in your team with great generic tech skills but really value some who can make sensible assumptions based on deep knowledge of the problem you are trying to solve.
Consider identifying a bunch of companies that need your legal skills and writing to e.g. the ceo if it's a small startup asking for them this very question.
Regarding QA, which is a real possibility... automated testing needs a certain level of coding and Web development knowledge + automation frameworks. You can tell from the job ad whether those skills are highly emphasised or not. A lot of qa people don't have them.
I've personally witnessed several people do the coding boot camp -> consulting agency -> coding job pipeline. (Think Accenture, Slolam, or any hundred of smaller agencies).
However this was pre-covid when having a novice coder that could attend client meetings in person took a premium over a more experienced coder far away.
However this was pre-covid when having a novice coder that could attend client meetings in person took a premium over a more experienced coder far away.
I'm a UK accountant, but I'm currently working as a finance software analyst.
I spend quite a bit of time coding to solve problems. Normally turning a csv into another csv (Python), or writing Javascript for our ERP (Netsuite).
There is little competiton for roles, they're well paid, and you get exposed to some interesting(?), process type problems.
My point is that there are lots of careers where coding isn't the main thrust of the role, but is really useful.
I learned Python whilst in a role where I was underemployed and it looked enough like work that no-one bithered me about it. I also fart around with computers and code in the evenings.
I am sure there are tasks you could automate in your own role to give you confidence in other roles. Or maybe even carve our a more coding based niche. Understand code and law? Great!
I spend quite a bit of time coding to solve problems. Normally turning a csv into another csv (Python), or writing Javascript for our ERP (Netsuite).
There is little competiton for roles, they're well paid, and you get exposed to some interesting(?), process type problems.
My point is that there are lots of careers where coding isn't the main thrust of the role, but is really useful.
I learned Python whilst in a role where I was underemployed and it looked enough like work that no-one bithered me about it. I also fart around with computers and code in the evenings.
I am sure there are tasks you could automate in your own role to give you confidence in other roles. Or maybe even carve our a more coding based niche. Understand code and law? Great!
Dupe of the same post by the same author yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39282349
I'm glad this one is getting more traction. Can we merge the posts, though?
I'm glad this one is getting more traction. Can we merge the posts, though?
Oops, my bad - I was having issues with posting yesterday so wasn't sure it went through. Should I ask the mods?
No worries, and welcome to HN! You can email the mods at [email protected] if you really want to, but it's not a big deal either way. This post is getting much more traction anyway :)
There are companies that hire non-traditional developers with the understanding that they need a little time to ramp up. Traditionally a CS student out of college would be a level 1 (aka junior developer). I've seen companies that create level 0 positions and expect you to reach level 1 capabilities in a year or two.
I have no idea how to find these jobs but they do exist.
I have no idea how to find these jobs but they do exist.
This doesn't answer your question exactly, but there's a part time, remote, Masters Degree in Software Development in the UK that will really get you skilled and would be a route to getting a job in software. From a highly ranked university too. I'm about to finish the degree and can highly recommend. Lots of businesses recruit directly from this course. I can send you info if of interest.
Do something that leans heavily on excel or google sheets. This can expose you to programming concepts, frames of mind, and you’re able to write scripts to help out as well.
I'd try to get a job where the title is actually Web Developer or Software Engineer but at a lower tier less competitive company. That way you can use it on your resume to pivot to a better paid role, and the work will be similar just with lower standards, you can learn the standards yourself and apply them even if your coworkers aren't the greatest role models. People get kind of pigeon holed in QA for some reason in my experience.
Try to think of ways that coding may improve your current job and the day-to-day tasks involved. I strongly feel that when you are motivated by a thing you actually want or need, then it helps make learning go easier.
For example, my brother works in sales/account mgmt, but was able to dip his toes into writing some Python scripts to automate some repetitive tasks.
For example, my brother works in sales/account mgmt, but was able to dip his toes into writing some Python scripts to automate some repetitive tasks.
I know a few people who have gotten in through Customer Support. Worst case scenario, you get experience working at a tech company, working with engineers, PMs, designers, etc. It's all very valuable. I suggest against the remote angle while you're still learning and making connections in the industry.
Check out https://docassemble.org/
I don't know if it's popular enough to be used on your side of the pond, but it's a tool used by lawyers that's scriptable and extensible with code.
I don't know if it's popular enough to be used on your side of the pond, but it's a tool used by lawyers that's scriptable and extensible with code.
This is pure speculation, but my 2 cents: Be a sales rep at an in-person company (this is important for networking). Become friends with the devs. Do the bare minimum for the sales job while meeting expectation.
Learn, learn, learn, and ask, ask, ask.
Learn, learn, learn, and ask, ask, ask.
Breaking in can be tricky - but getting a position as an entry level developer sets you up on the software engineering/coding trajectory.
> Obviously I can't get "paid to learn" how to code but are there any entry-level jobs where I'd get general exposure that could aid/speed up my learning? (in any programming language) I guess working at a company with software developers could help (like the SDR has), but they might be remote/in other departments.
It seems to me that this is an illusion. If someone hires you as sales, he expect that you'll try all of your best at sales, not at doing coding exercises. The same regarding developers, they're not payed to help you to learn to code and they will probably will not help you until you become their friend. In other world, may be there are easier ways to find friends among software developers?
> I've seen people recommend tech support at a small-mid startup or Quality Assurance/Quality Control (QA/QC) - on the other hand I've seen others say that since you wouldn't actually be coding and as those jobs require a completely different mindset to a programmer, it wouldn't help.
The same about tech support and quality assurance positions. I saw a lot of people who landed QA position because it seemed easier and got stuck to this career path. QA has some overlaps with software engineering, but, this career paths require very different set of hard skills, especially at lower levels, where responsibility are very separated.
I admit that right now is not the easiest time to start a software engineer career, still I would suggest you to:
1/ Learn how to code and debug with some language (for example javascript for frontend, java for backend)
2/ Learn about design patterns to understand the difference between "coder" and "software engineer". The Design patterns from Gang of Fours still probably works good, but there could be more modern alternatives
3/ Learn about unit tests, the "Test Driven Development" by Kent Beck conveys the more important ideas.
4/ Learn any popular framework (Spring for java/backend, vuejs for js/frontend)
5/ Build any simple app, for example yet another to-do list, and publish on github. But keep in mind that you should use design patterns, any popular framework and cover your code with tests.
6/ Apply to all Junior dev vacancies you see, you're ready to rock. Accomplishing of the 5 steps above will differentiate you from most applicants.
Probably java and java script may not sound sexy in 2024, but this is something in demand in big and boring banks, telecoms, insurance firms that will always need people to support their systems.
It seems to me that this is an illusion. If someone hires you as sales, he expect that you'll try all of your best at sales, not at doing coding exercises. The same regarding developers, they're not payed to help you to learn to code and they will probably will not help you until you become their friend. In other world, may be there are easier ways to find friends among software developers?
> I've seen people recommend tech support at a small-mid startup or Quality Assurance/Quality Control (QA/QC) - on the other hand I've seen others say that since you wouldn't actually be coding and as those jobs require a completely different mindset to a programmer, it wouldn't help.
The same about tech support and quality assurance positions. I saw a lot of people who landed QA position because it seemed easier and got stuck to this career path. QA has some overlaps with software engineering, but, this career paths require very different set of hard skills, especially at lower levels, where responsibility are very separated.
I admit that right now is not the easiest time to start a software engineer career, still I would suggest you to:
1/ Learn how to code and debug with some language (for example javascript for frontend, java for backend)
2/ Learn about design patterns to understand the difference between "coder" and "software engineer". The Design patterns from Gang of Fours still probably works good, but there could be more modern alternatives
3/ Learn about unit tests, the "Test Driven Development" by Kent Beck conveys the more important ideas.
4/ Learn any popular framework (Spring for java/backend, vuejs for js/frontend)
5/ Build any simple app, for example yet another to-do list, and publish on github. But keep in mind that you should use design patterns, any popular framework and cover your code with tests.
6/ Apply to all Junior dev vacancies you see, you're ready to rock. Accomplishing of the 5 steps above will differentiate you from most applicants.
Probably java and java script may not sound sexy in 2024, but this is something in demand in big and boring banks, telecoms, insurance firms that will always need people to support their systems.
Get into a PhD program that is quantitative or mathematical. You’ll pick up coding on the way.
I'm curious as to which jobs (if any) someone would recommend if I'm learning how to code on the evenings and on weekends. At the moment I'm just doing it for fun, but it'd be nice if there was a potential route, long-term to get a job if I still enjoy it down the line. My current job is working as a Paralegal in a non-technical role.
I've been applying for other positions in a variety of industries (currently have an offer for a remote SDR role selling a SaaS product, but debating whether I should take it because it's just for the money and feel it could get quite time-intensive if I have to hit targets consistently).
Obviously I can't get "paid to learn" how to code but are there any entry-level jobs where I'd get general exposure that could aid/speed up my learning? (in any programming language) I guess working at a company with software developers could help (like the SDR has), but they might be remote/in other departments.
I've seen people recommend tech support at a small-mid startup or Quality Assurance/Quality Control (QA/QC) - on the other hand I've seen others say that since you wouldn't actually be coding and as those jobs require a completely different mindset to a programmer, it wouldn't help.
So, I was wondering if anyone would agree with this/had other suggestions, or is a bootcamp more "practical" if I wanted eventually to turn it into a career (in the long-term, one day) or should I just continue self-teaching on my own, in the evenings/weekends.
I'm UK-based for what it's worth.