The ThinkPad T480 Successor: New ThinkPad T14 Gen 5(notebookcheck.net)
notebookcheck.net
The ThinkPad T480 Successor: New ThinkPad T14 Gen 5
https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-real-ThinkPad-T480-successor-New-ThinkPad-T14-Gen-5-is-iFixit-approved.807242.0.html
44 comments
>Feeling the heat from Framework!
It was bound to have an effect in the industry, as tech-savvy people select and recommend them simply because they're the least broken option.
Others are too disposable; made to break rather than last.
It was bound to have an effect in the industry, as tech-savvy people select and recommend them simply because they're the least broken option.
Others are too disposable; made to break rather than last.
"Others are too disposable, made to break" -> that's true for electronic appliances and everything else (shoes, clothes, cars, smartphones...). That's how greedy business makes itself more profitable nowadays.
For laptops, try T430: it can last for decades.
For laptops, try T430: it can last for decades.
Hardware might, but software is slowly going away https://hackaday.com/2024/02/25/what-is-x86-64-v3/
Interesting link. Thank you
I never seen a Framework live, I see Thinkpads every single day.
I've seen plenty of Framework laptops at hacker conferences.
Hacker conferences hardly decide IT planning business decisions, and very few attend them.
In any case, I would bet they are outnumbered by fruity laptops.
In any case, I would bet they are outnumbered by fruity laptops.
IT planning business? I'm pretty sure that virtually all laptops at hacker conferences are privately owned and not provided by an employer. Hackers want a good laptop for personal use or freelancing. That's why most hackers choose among Frameworks, Thinkpads and MacBooks.
> Hacker conferences hardly decide IT planning business decisions ...
Probably a case of "the thin edge of the wedge".
So in a few years time if/when Framework is more established, they might be an option for IT departments.
Probably a case of "the thin edge of the wedge".
So in a few years time if/when Framework is more established, they might be an option for IT departments.
If they provide warranty and support like Dell/HP/Lenovo then sure.
Companies buy in bulk from Dell, HP and Lenovo. The ThinkPads are especially great. I've used mine from work for 3 years now. Coming up on renewal, and it looks good as new, just the old 8th gen i5 bringing it down.
"Hacker conferences" dosent matter in the real world, sorry
"Hacker conferences" dosent matter in the real world, sorry
I don't really care if it is being sold with Linux as an option. They should just have a policy to make sure that all the relevant patches are upstream before they release the product.
Then they can still decide later if they themselves want to cell it with Linux late on.
Then they can still decide later if they themselves want to cell it with Linux late on.
A few years back they had several Thinkpad models available with either Ubuntu or Fedora. Firmware updates were distributed via LVFS. They were even key in getting synaptics to add Linux support for the fingerprint sensor in the models.
I think currently they are down to just the Carbon X1 being orderable with Linux which likely speaks to the actual demand for Linux vs their cost to support it.
I think currently they are down to just the Carbon X1 being orderable with Linux which likely speaks to the actual demand for Linux vs their cost to support it.
I think I probably have similar attitude to the GP post. I have been using Linux on laptops for over 25 years, and have zero interest in ordering one with Linux preinstalled. I will research that the new model has integrated devices with upstream, integrated support. I almost treat a vendor-supplied Linux as a bad smell.
I don't want to risk "Linux support" that comes from the vendor tasking some interns to hack drivers into one specific distribution and/or kernel version.
I want a machine where I know I can wipe or replace the SSD and boot my preferred standard Linux install media to get a fully functional system. I want zero vendor-supplied drivers or other add-ons.
Luckily, Thinkpads have been popular enough that I can always read about someone else's experimental validation of new models before I bother to order one myself.
I don't want to risk "Linux support" that comes from the vendor tasking some interns to hack drivers into one specific distribution and/or kernel version.
I want a machine where I know I can wipe or replace the SSD and boot my preferred standard Linux install media to get a fully functional system. I want zero vendor-supplied drivers or other add-ons.
Luckily, Thinkpads have been popular enough that I can always read about someone else's experimental validation of new models before I bother to order one myself.
>Feeling the heat from Framework!
Is it? Isn't it like 1/1000th their sales, one being a global brand and everything, the other a niche product?
Is it? Isn't it like 1/1000th their sales, one being a global brand and everything, the other a niche product?
This is good to see.
The annoying thing about soldered RAM on Thinkpads is that it can't be disabled.
So if the onboard RAM dies so does your laptop. Even if the laptop has a SODIMM slot.
The annoying thing about soldered RAM on Thinkpads is that it can't be disabled.
So if the onboard RAM dies so does your laptop. Even if the laptop has a SODIMM slot.
Discussion already at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39506597
I think more divisively
> The new ThinkPad T14 Gen 5 has a redesigned keyboard with swapped FN/Ctrl keys
> The new ThinkPad T14 Gen 5 has a redesigned keyboard with swapped FN/Ctrl keys
Thinkpads have allowed swapping the behavior of those two keys in UEFI for more than a decade now, so this shouldn't be an issue.
I have always switched the behaviour, but you can't switch the caps.
Having the Fn on the left appears to be quite an emotional subject for some people.
Having the Fn on the left appears to be quite an emotional subject for some people.
It's one of things that gave a little bit of Thinkpad identity and there from the beginning.
Having the Fn makes sense and it's OBJECTIVELY* better because on low-light environments it lets you control the screen brightness. In the past you could easily switch the ThinkLight or whatever it was called from a pitch-black room.
* I am joking.
* I am joking.
I've used US and UK keyboards with very different layouts, it does not take long to relearn the muscle memory. Or swap it in the bios. Either way it's a non-issue.
One problem I’ve had with this is language switching, in the past Ctrl+Shift was popular and you can press it with one finger if Ctrl is to the left. Nowadays due to operating system behavior inconsistency the only reasonable option seems to be Win+Space on Windows and Linux, and identically placed Ctrl+Space on Mac
The ctrl key has been moved to the far left, which is a welcome change.
The copilot key seems to replace the menu or prtscr key between the alt and ctrl on the right.
The copilot key seems to replace the menu or prtscr key between the alt and ctrl on the right.
> The ctrl key has been moved to the far left, which is a welcome change.
TBH it's weird to hear this so often. Macs also have the same "Fn on the far left" layout as ThinkPads and Macs/ThinkPads have basically won in the tech space. I got a Dell work laptop and I thought this wouldn't be a big deal, but having used a ThinkPad or a Mac for 20 years I couldn't adjust (which is wild, because I got over Neovim's D/dd abominable betrayal in a few days).
TBH it's weird to hear this so often. Macs also have the same "Fn on the far left" layout as ThinkPads and Macs/ThinkPads have basically won in the tech space. I got a Dell work laptop and I thought this wouldn't be a big deal, but having used a ThinkPad or a Mac for 20 years I couldn't adjust (which is wild, because I got over Neovim's D/dd abominable betrayal in a few days).
Most people here on HN would agree with you, but for someone who spent many years touch typing on a PC desktop keyboard where the Ctrl key is at the far left, it is a welcome adjustment. The little finger automatically goes to the far left when you've been trained on ye-olde keyboards.
> Most people here on HN would agree with you, but for someone who spent many years touch typing on a PC desktop keyboard where the Ctrl key is at the far left, it is a welcome adjustment.
For sure yeah; I failed to adjust the other way. I'm so bad I bought one of those ThinkPad USB keyboards for home and used a Magic Keyboard at work.
For sure yeah; I failed to adjust the other way. I'm so bad I bought one of those ThinkPad USB keyboards for home and used a Magic Keyboard at work.
Macs have a better design here - they use the more convenient thumb for Ctrl functions, so fn on the far left is not relevant
But on a PC far left key is easier to press with a palm than the much less useful fn, so it's a welcome improvement in the default layout
But on a PC far left key is easier to press with a palm than the much less useful fn, so it's a welcome improvement in the default layout
Nah in the terminal where I spend 90% of my time Ctrl is Ctrl.
Unless you rebind it to make your experience 100% consistent
> Macs have a better design here
> Unless you rebind it to make your experience 100% consistent
If we're saying rebinding is an acceptable solution then what does it matter what order the keys are in?
You also can't really rebind the Fn/Ctrl/Option/Cmd to do what you're suggesting in macOS. I learned this using a ThinkPad USB keyboard on a Mac trying to get it to use Ctrl for the things you're used to on a non-Mac keyboard: there are a lot of clashes. For instance if you map Cmd-C -> Ctrl-C how do you copy things (or cancel things) in a terminal? I ended up binding the ThinkPad's keys to be what they would be on the Mac's keyboard.
> Unless you rebind it to make your experience 100% consistent
If we're saying rebinding is an acceptable solution then what does it matter what order the keys are in?
You also can't really rebind the Fn/Ctrl/Option/Cmd to do what you're suggesting in macOS. I learned this using a ThinkPad USB keyboard on a Mac trying to get it to use Ctrl for the things you're used to on a non-Mac keyboard: there are a lot of clashes. For instance if you map Cmd-C -> Ctrl-C how do you copy things (or cancel things) in a terminal? I ended up binding the ThinkPad's keys to be what they would be on the Mac's keyboard.
> does it matter what order the keys are in?
The amount of rebinding still differs due to Alt, defaults unfortunately matter even if you change them.
> if you map Cmd-C -> Ctrl-C how do you copy things
How do you do it on Windows where it's the same combo from the start?
But also: by making it conditional on selection or simply using another letter
The amount of rebinding still differs due to Alt, defaults unfortunately matter even if you change them.
> if you map Cmd-C -> Ctrl-C how do you copy things
How do you do it on Windows where it's the same combo from the start?
But also: by making it conditional on selection or simply using another letter
I think I've lost the plot here. Let's play it back:
1. Me: Macs also have the same "Fn on the far left" layout as ThinkPads and Macs/ThinkPads have basically won in the tech space.
2. You: Macs have a better design here - they use the more convenient thumb for Ctrl functions, so fn on the far left is not relevant
3. Me: Nah in the terminal where I spend 90% of my time Ctrl is Ctrl.
4. You: Unless you rebind it to make your experience 100% consistent
5. Me: If we're saying rebinding is an acceptable solution then what does it matter what order the keys are in?
6. You: The amount of rebinding still differs due to Alt, defaults unfortunately matter even if you change them.
Like, sure I guess rebinding 4 keys is more work than rebinding 3. I was just confused (5) because you said that the Mac's design is better (2) but then you seemed to abandon that argument by saying you can just rebind keys (4). Your response at (6) seems irrelevant; why is Alt (a key not on the Mac keyboard; do you mean Option?) germane?
> How do you do it on Windows where it's the same combo from the start?
Pretty much the same way the Mac does it [0]: let Ctrl-C mean "cancel" and use some other key combo for copy (you guessed it).
But, again overall rebinding is an imperfect solution. A lot of things don't know you rebound your keys, there can be weird clashes, etc.
[0]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/console/ctrl-c-and...
1. Me: Macs also have the same "Fn on the far left" layout as ThinkPads and Macs/ThinkPads have basically won in the tech space.
2. You: Macs have a better design here - they use the more convenient thumb for Ctrl functions, so fn on the far left is not relevant
3. Me: Nah in the terminal where I spend 90% of my time Ctrl is Ctrl.
4. You: Unless you rebind it to make your experience 100% consistent
5. Me: If we're saying rebinding is an acceptable solution then what does it matter what order the keys are in?
6. You: The amount of rebinding still differs due to Alt, defaults unfortunately matter even if you change them.
Like, sure I guess rebinding 4 keys is more work than rebinding 3. I was just confused (5) because you said that the Mac's design is better (2) but then you seemed to abandon that argument by saying you can just rebind keys (4). Your response at (6) seems irrelevant; why is Alt (a key not on the Mac keyboard; do you mean Option?) germane?
> How do you do it on Windows where it's the same combo from the start?
Pretty much the same way the Mac does it [0]: let Ctrl-C mean "cancel" and use some other key combo for copy (you guessed it).
But, again overall rebinding is an imperfect solution. A lot of things don't know you rebound your keys, there can be weird clashes, etc.
[0]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/console/ctrl-c-and...
> why is Alt (a key not on the Mac keyboard; do you mean Option?) germane?
It is a literal (as in both printed on the key and referenced in the OS/docs) key on a Mac keyboard with, you're just confused by the fact it also has another name.
> A lot of things don't know you rebound your keys, there can be weird clashes, etc
Like what? If you just move 4 keys all the things will know, that's a system-wide rebinding. And what clashes do you mean? You've only provided a single example Ctrl-C example, which turns out to be easy to resolve in either the same way it's resolved in Windows. Or in a better way
But also, if you recognize there are many clashes that need to be resolved via rebinding, then this "rebinding 4 keys is more work than rebinding 3." doesn't make sense, guess that's why you're confused again. Alt is germane precisely because rebinding 4 keys isn't enough since default keybinds work differently with these modifiers.
1. On a Mac Cmd key is already used by the OS for most of control functions, so it's easy to rebind the few terminal Ctrl keys to Cmd without moving those 4 keys around, and resolve only those direct clashes
2. But on a PC Alt is used for some common operations, so if you move Ctrl to the more convenient thumb location, you'll have to deal with moving some of those keybinds, so resolve clashes that potentially touch more apps/keybinds than just terminal keybinds
It is a literal (as in both printed on the key and referenced in the OS/docs) key on a Mac keyboard with, you're just confused by the fact it also has another name.
> A lot of things don't know you rebound your keys, there can be weird clashes, etc
Like what? If you just move 4 keys all the things will know, that's a system-wide rebinding. And what clashes do you mean? You've only provided a single example Ctrl-C example, which turns out to be easy to resolve in either the same way it's resolved in Windows. Or in a better way
But also, if you recognize there are many clashes that need to be resolved via rebinding, then this "rebinding 4 keys is more work than rebinding 3." doesn't make sense, guess that's why you're confused again. Alt is germane precisely because rebinding 4 keys isn't enough since default keybinds work differently with these modifiers.
1. On a Mac Cmd key is already used by the OS for most of control functions, so it's easy to rebind the few terminal Ctrl keys to Cmd without moving those 4 keys around, and resolve only those direct clashes
2. But on a PC Alt is used for some common operations, so if you move Ctrl to the more convenient thumb location, you'll have to deal with moving some of those keybinds, so resolve clashes that potentially touch more apps/keybinds than just terminal keybinds
> It is a literal (as in both printed on the key and referenced in the OS/docs) key on a Mac keyboard with, you're just confused by the fact it also has another name.
I feel like we're in a weird place in this discussion. AFAICT no keyboard Apple currently ships labels Option as Alt, though it is true they have shipped keyboards with this in the past. There's no need to condescend, or maybe you were just referring to PC keyboards and trying to bail yourself out here?
> Like what? If you just move 4 keys all the things will know, that's a system-wide rebinding.
Web apps don't know. Swap Control/Option and load up Google Docs. The binds they list don't take into account the swap, though the new binds work correctly. Also in iTerm2 Pointer settings the Cmd/Control/Option icons don't update. Etc. etc. etc.
> You've only provided a single example Ctrl-C example
My point is that it's always gonna be a little imperfect and maybe a lot of work. Let's say you did want to basically make iTerm2 function like xterm in Linux; what that means is Ctrl-C is cancel and copy/paste is done w/ the mouse. Well, you can't get rid of Command-C for copy, and you can't get the "copy on select" behavior either, so that's a bust. Let's abandon a Linux-alike and just add an App Shortcut for ^C -> Copy. Some terminals are smart enough to use Copy when something's selected and use Cancel otherwise, but Vim's isn't :(. Also if you have anything bound to Ctrl-C in those apps you lose the app's bind, and you don't always have a way to get it back. Pasting is another problem: if you bind ^V -> Paste, any terminal app that uses ^V as a keybinding (Vim again) will instead get whatever's in your clipboard.
> But also, if you recognize there are many clashes that need to be resolved via rebinding, then this "rebinding 4 keys is more work than rebinding 3." doesn't make sense, guess that's why you're confused again. Alt is germane precisely because rebinding 4 keys isn't enough since default keybinds work differently with these modifiers.
> it's easy to rebind the few terminal Ctrl keys to Cmd without moving those 4 keys around, and resolve only those direct clashes
You can't have it both ways. Either rebinding is easy or there are many clashes.
> But on a PC Alt is used for some common operations, so if you move Ctrl to the more convenient thumb location, you'll have to deal with moving some of those keybinds, so resolve clashes that potentially touch more apps/keybinds than just terminal keybinds
Great, the Alt you were talking about is for PC keyboards. That's what I thought; dunno why we had to go deep into like, API docs for macOS. Sometimes people goof! That's OK! Now I see what you meant here. Yeah but like, welcome to more rebinds across more apps.
---
AFAIK people use Karabiner to pretty good success here. I've never tried it. Maybe it makes everything easier, or maybe you've got one more fiddly thing to maintain.
[0]: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK2A3LL/A/magic-keyboard-...
[1]: https://www.apple.com/ipad-keyboards/
I feel like we're in a weird place in this discussion. AFAICT no keyboard Apple currently ships labels Option as Alt, though it is true they have shipped keyboards with this in the past. There's no need to condescend, or maybe you were just referring to PC keyboards and trying to bail yourself out here?
> Like what? If you just move 4 keys all the things will know, that's a system-wide rebinding.
Web apps don't know. Swap Control/Option and load up Google Docs. The binds they list don't take into account the swap, though the new binds work correctly. Also in iTerm2 Pointer settings the Cmd/Control/Option icons don't update. Etc. etc. etc.
> You've only provided a single example Ctrl-C example
My point is that it's always gonna be a little imperfect and maybe a lot of work. Let's say you did want to basically make iTerm2 function like xterm in Linux; what that means is Ctrl-C is cancel and copy/paste is done w/ the mouse. Well, you can't get rid of Command-C for copy, and you can't get the "copy on select" behavior either, so that's a bust. Let's abandon a Linux-alike and just add an App Shortcut for ^C -> Copy. Some terminals are smart enough to use Copy when something's selected and use Cancel otherwise, but Vim's isn't :(. Also if you have anything bound to Ctrl-C in those apps you lose the app's bind, and you don't always have a way to get it back. Pasting is another problem: if you bind ^V -> Paste, any terminal app that uses ^V as a keybinding (Vim again) will instead get whatever's in your clipboard.
> But also, if you recognize there are many clashes that need to be resolved via rebinding, then this "rebinding 4 keys is more work than rebinding 3." doesn't make sense, guess that's why you're confused again. Alt is germane precisely because rebinding 4 keys isn't enough since default keybinds work differently with these modifiers.
> it's easy to rebind the few terminal Ctrl keys to Cmd without moving those 4 keys around, and resolve only those direct clashes
You can't have it both ways. Either rebinding is easy or there are many clashes.
> But on a PC Alt is used for some common operations, so if you move Ctrl to the more convenient thumb location, you'll have to deal with moving some of those keybinds, so resolve clashes that potentially touch more apps/keybinds than just terminal keybinds
Great, the Alt you were talking about is for PC keyboards. That's what I thought; dunno why we had to go deep into like, API docs for macOS. Sometimes people goof! That's OK! Now I see what you meant here. Yeah but like, welcome to more rebinds across more apps.
---
AFAIK people use Karabiner to pretty good success here. I've never tried it. Maybe it makes everything easier, or maybe you've got one more fiddly thing to maintain.
[0]: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK2A3LL/A/magic-keyboard-...
[1]: https://www.apple.com/ipad-keyboards/
Yeah, the fact that you've never tried Karabiner explains a lot of why you keep wrongly insisting things are impossible
> Swap Control/Option ... the new binds work correctly
That means the web app knows. Or do you want it to show the wrong keycap labels instead of the correct key function names?
> Well, you can't get rid of Command-C for copy
You can. Depending on the terminal you can do it either in the app or in Karabiner
> can't get the "copy on select" behavior
Think that's also possible, maybe not in iTerm, though how is this relevant when we're talking about keybinds? Obviously you can't have two functions per key 100% (below 100% you can have context-dependency like selection), so I don't understand what your perfect baseline is? No matter where control physically is you'll still have this issue that you can't use it to copy and cancel in the same context, so the fact that you'd need to resolve a conflict in Cmd is not an argument for any position.
> but Vim's isn't
But you can detect vim and use Cmd+C to pass Ctrl+C to it, so you'd retain vim's dumb behaviour just like you'd have with the original Ctrl+C, so there is no functional improvement, just ergonomic one (though this is more complicated)
>lose the app's bind, and you don't always have a way to get it back
you can always send the original Ctrl+C key event instead of "Copy" with a different keybind, so you'd retain that function
> You can't have it both ways. Either rebinding is easy or there are many clashes.
I can:
1. It's relatively easy in one case of the terminal app where you move Ctrl+X keybinds to Cmd+X and resolve a few conflicts
2. There are many clashes if you do it another way and move keys around at the OS level. And the amount of clashes is OS-dependent, and the reason it is due to Alt (including Mac's Alt)
> Great, the Alt you were talking about is for PC keyboards. That's what I thought; dunno why we had to go deep into like, API docs for macOS. Sometimes people goof! That's OK! Now I see what you meant here.
Unfortunately, you're still confused, but trying to persist in your mistake too hard to notice. I meant both keys (Mac's Alt and Win's Alt), and the fact that they serve different functions on different OS explains how "defaults matter even if you change them", that's how Alt (includings Mac's) is relevant
(also, it's not API docs, it's general user keyboard shortcuts help, why do you need to make even these things up?)
> Swap Control/Option ... the new binds work correctly
That means the web app knows. Or do you want it to show the wrong keycap labels instead of the correct key function names?
> Well, you can't get rid of Command-C for copy
You can. Depending on the terminal you can do it either in the app or in Karabiner
> can't get the "copy on select" behavior
Think that's also possible, maybe not in iTerm, though how is this relevant when we're talking about keybinds? Obviously you can't have two functions per key 100% (below 100% you can have context-dependency like selection), so I don't understand what your perfect baseline is? No matter where control physically is you'll still have this issue that you can't use it to copy and cancel in the same context, so the fact that you'd need to resolve a conflict in Cmd is not an argument for any position.
> but Vim's isn't
But you can detect vim and use Cmd+C to pass Ctrl+C to it, so you'd retain vim's dumb behaviour just like you'd have with the original Ctrl+C, so there is no functional improvement, just ergonomic one (though this is more complicated)
>lose the app's bind, and you don't always have a way to get it back
you can always send the original Ctrl+C key event instead of "Copy" with a different keybind, so you'd retain that function
> You can't have it both ways. Either rebinding is easy or there are many clashes.
I can:
1. It's relatively easy in one case of the terminal app where you move Ctrl+X keybinds to Cmd+X and resolve a few conflicts
2. There are many clashes if you do it another way and move keys around at the OS level. And the amount of clashes is OS-dependent, and the reason it is due to Alt (including Mac's Alt)
> Great, the Alt you were talking about is for PC keyboards. That's what I thought; dunno why we had to go deep into like, API docs for macOS. Sometimes people goof! That's OK! Now I see what you meant here.
Unfortunately, you're still confused, but trying to persist in your mistake too hard to notice. I meant both keys (Mac's Alt and Win's Alt), and the fact that they serve different functions on different OS explains how "defaults matter even if you change them", that's how Alt (includings Mac's) is relevant
(also, it's not API docs, it's general user keyboard shortcuts help, why do you need to make even these things up?)
How are the speakers on these? I loved my X1, and used it for years, but the speakers are hilariously bad compared to eg the MBP I use at work.
What about keyboard depth?
Now checking to see if it can ship w/ Linux by default.
edit: The answer appears to be "no." Also, searching Lenovo.com for "T14 gen 5" yields: "2676 Result For ‘t14 gen 5.'" Lenovo should really work on their search functionality.