Vegetable stock: my secret lover (2011)(blog.andymatuschak.org)
blog.andymatuschak.org
Vegetable stock: my secret lover (2011)
https://blog.andymatuschak.org/post/8092537664/vegetable-stock-my-secret-lover
138 comments
Slow-cooking to bring out a complex, deep, yet mild flavour is a crucial technique in general. I'm too impatient for it most of the time, but I discovered it while trying to be economical. Like with leftover stew, safe to eat but maybe the texture was off or whatever - pick out incompatible ingredients, mash, slow cook with lots of water for many hours until reduced to gravy. Add some of that to the next stew. Just wonderful. Indeed, almost any time you would add water or thickener, some stock or gravy is probably better.
Reminds of:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_stew ,
sometimes as pot-au-feu:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot-au-feu
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_stew ,
sometimes as pot-au-feu:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot-au-feu
Love that the title's marked "(2011)", so that we shouldn't expect the latest developments on vegetable stock from this article. It might even be outdated now, and be replaced with a superior stock of sorts.
Everyone knows you can’t act on old stock advice
My similar cooking hack: bean broth (sometimes called bean liquor). Save the water from cooking beans to use as stock.
When I cook white beans, I freeze the broth in ice cube trays and use it in place of water when cooking. When I cook darker beans, I use the broth to make soup or stews.
I've made a simple brothy soup from the light broth garnished with herbs (fried sage leaves always impresses) and a splash of olive oil. It's a great meal starter.
When I cook white beans, I freeze the broth in ice cube trays and use it in place of water when cooking. When I cook darker beans, I use the broth to make soup or stews.
I've made a simple brothy soup from the light broth garnished with herbs (fried sage leaves always impresses) and a splash of olive oil. It's a great meal starter.
LPT you can use all your vegetable trimmings to make stock so long as you have roughly the proper proportions. We just keep them in the freezer in a bag until ready to make stock, and we do it in our instantpot with a dash of AC vinegar.
Onions: Provide a sweet and savory base flavor (can vary based on onion type eg yellow, white, red)
Carrots: Add sweetness and earthiness.
Celery: Adds a savory note and depth.
Leek: Adds a mild, sweet onion flavor.
Garlic: Adds a pungent, savory flavor.
Bay leaf: Adds a subtle herbal note (lots of people think bay leaves add very little to most things but fresh bay leaves really help)
Parsley stems: Adds freshness and a herbaceous flavor.
Onions: Provide a sweet and savory base flavor (can vary based on onion type eg yellow, white, red)
Carrots: Add sweetness and earthiness.
Celery: Adds a savory note and depth.
Leek: Adds a mild, sweet onion flavor.
Garlic: Adds a pungent, savory flavor.
Bay leaf: Adds a subtle herbal note (lots of people think bay leaves add very little to most things but fresh bay leaves really help)
Parsley stems: Adds freshness and a herbaceous flavor.
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Fresh bay leaves are a revelation. They carry much more flavour than dried ones. If you crush a fresh bay leaf in your hand, someone a couple of yards away can easily pick up the aroma.
Paprika as well? For some reason I always have too much of those left.
I assume you mean a fresh "bell pepper"? In American English paprika refers just to the dried spice, while the rotund and mild peppers are bell peppers.
But you can definitely add either to a stock. The fresh pepper will add (if red) a sweetness and savory note. The green peppers will add more vegetal flavors, less sweetness. But I think leftover pepper is best eaten raw as a snack, salad dressing optional.
But you can definitely add either to a stock. The fresh pepper will add (if red) a sweetness and savory note. The green peppers will add more vegetal flavors, less sweetness. But I think leftover pepper is best eaten raw as a snack, salad dressing optional.
From Wikipedia:
The first recorded use of the word paprika in English is from 1831.[13] The word derives from the Hungarian word paprika,[14] which derives from the Serbo-Croatian word paprika, which is a diminutive of papar,[citation needed] which in turn was derived from the Latin piper or modern Greek piperi, ultimately from Sanskrit pippalī.[15] Paprika and similar words, including peperke, piperke, and paparka, are used in various languages for bell peppers.[6]: 5, 73
Weird. So ground up "bell peppers" are called Paprika instead of the "bell pepper" itself.
In Hungarian, both are 'paprika'. But because the pepper itself is common outside of Hungary, most languages already have their own word for the pepper, and so the loan word 'paprika' is only used for the less common spice.
In Hungary, it's relatively uncommon to need to distinguish between the ground form and the vegetable form, as it seems to be some kind of folk knowledge imparted by generation DNA or something, but if you ever do need to, then the expression fűszerpaprika exists (meaning 'spice pepper').
We use the same word for bell peppers and black pepper, so it's not that big of a jump, just takes some getting used to.
In Hungary, it's relatively uncommon to need to distinguish between the ground form and the vegetable form, as it seems to be some kind of folk knowledge imparted by generation DNA or something, but if you ever do need to, then the expression fűszerpaprika exists (meaning 'spice pepper').
We use the same word for bell peppers and black pepper, so it's not that big of a jump, just takes some getting used to.
Except it's not made out of the same variety of peppers as what we call bell peppers, according to Wikipedia.
No, US paprika is ground dried sweet or hot peppers. Often imported from Hungary.
It's not unique to english. In french, paprika is also used for the powder. While poivron is for bell pepper. And piment for the spicy variety. And piment doux for the sweet version.
Also whole pepper corn and whatever herbs you might have around.
It's the peak of leek season here in Northern California, and easily the biggest improvement we've made to our vegetable soups is to make a quick stock from the green tops of our leeks, finely chopped, together with the vegetable odds and ends we always seem to have, such as celery leaves and the outer layer of the leek bulbs, then use the stock in place of water in the soup recipes. Simmering the stock for no longer than takes to make the rest of a minestrone is plenty, and the leek fragrance is amazing.
I use stock cubes. They take no space to store and no time to make and they're dirt cheap if you count the power you don't need to boil vegetables to a stock yourself.
I love cooking and make all sorts of things myself from scratch, mind. So when I want to make a soup, I start with a light roux (extra virgin olive oil and strong wholemeal flour, equal measures), then boil some water, melt in a couple of stock cubes and add to the roux. Also makes a great base for sauces. For extra flavour I sautée some onions in the olive oil before adding the flour.
The truth is that most commercial stock cubes are basically salt, with a bit of flavouring, which is a total rip-off and pointless. My local supermarket sells a couple brands that have 0-salt stock cubes and one of them even has no "flavour enhancers" so I go for those. The only downside is that the stock always tastes the same.
In the last couple of years I've relaxed a lot about making it all myself from scratch and I'll happily use tinned mushroom, beans or chickpeas (for houmous). Considering the amount of time you have to boil pulses before they're the right consistency that probably saves me a buttload of money, on top of the time. I draw the line at carrots. Carrots are best, fresh.
I love cooking and make all sorts of things myself from scratch, mind. So when I want to make a soup, I start with a light roux (extra virgin olive oil and strong wholemeal flour, equal measures), then boil some water, melt in a couple of stock cubes and add to the roux. Also makes a great base for sauces. For extra flavour I sautée some onions in the olive oil before adding the flour.
The truth is that most commercial stock cubes are basically salt, with a bit of flavouring, which is a total rip-off and pointless. My local supermarket sells a couple brands that have 0-salt stock cubes and one of them even has no "flavour enhancers" so I go for those. The only downside is that the stock always tastes the same.
In the last couple of years I've relaxed a lot about making it all myself from scratch and I'll happily use tinned mushroom, beans or chickpeas (for houmous). Considering the amount of time you have to boil pulses before they're the right consistency that probably saves me a buttload of money, on top of the time. I draw the line at carrots. Carrots are best, fresh.
Any brand names for 0-salt stock you can share? I don't even particularly like cooking, but make lots of stuff from scratch just to reduce specifically salt.
The brand I mentioned above that is without (too many?) additives is Kallo:
https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/kallo-organic-vegetab...
They also have chicken and beef cubes. I have to correct my earlier comment though, now that I look at the ingredients again: it's not 0 salt. The page above lists 0.1g per 100ml of stock, so once hydrated. It's a bit annoying they don't tell you exactly how much salt is in the cube itself, only in the stock. Apologies. I remembered it as being 0 salt.
The other brand that I ended up not using because it looked to me like it had too many additives is Knorr, who also have veg, chicken and beef stocks and list 0g salt per 100ml of stock:
https://www.knorr.com/uk/products/zero-salt.html
https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/kallo-organic-vegetab...
They also have chicken and beef cubes. I have to correct my earlier comment though, now that I look at the ingredients again: it's not 0 salt. The page above lists 0.1g per 100ml of stock, so once hydrated. It's a bit annoying they don't tell you exactly how much salt is in the cube itself, only in the stock. Apologies. I remembered it as being 0 salt.
The other brand that I ended up not using because it looked to me like it had too many additives is Knorr, who also have veg, chicken and beef stocks and list 0g salt per 100ml of stock:
https://www.knorr.com/uk/products/zero-salt.html
James Hoffmann had an interesting take on making vegetable stock. TL;DW: He used a juicer
https://youtu.be/VV68NiRulEk
https://youtu.be/VV68NiRulEk
When I make stock I usually follow the traditional route, but rather than discard the vegetables I stick my Bamix into the pot and let it run until the contents are silky smooth. (Think of the Bamix as a poor man’s Pacojet if you run it long enough :-)). This results in what can best be described as a runny purée.
If I’m making something that will be thickened there is no need to run the result through a fine meshed sieve. And most of the time when I cook that is the case. Which means no unnecessary waste.
If you want a broth then I suppose I could let it sit until the solids have settled and scoop off the liquid. What I usually do is go easy on the Bamix so the more of the solids are taken out by the sieve.
What would be more interesting would be to do both: juice first, the sautee and then cook the pulp and finally combine the two.
If I’m making something that will be thickened there is no need to run the result through a fine meshed sieve. And most of the time when I cook that is the case. Which means no unnecessary waste.
If you want a broth then I suppose I could let it sit until the solids have settled and scoop off the liquid. What I usually do is go easy on the Bamix so the more of the solids are taken out by the sieve.
What would be more interesting would be to do both: juice first, the sautee and then cook the pulp and finally combine the two.
> I stick my Bamix into the pot and let it run until the contents are silky smooth
How do you like the Bamix? I was considering replacing my aging Kitchen Aid immersion blender (which I love, but it’s starting to fall apart) with either another Kitchen Aid, or a Braun, or a Bamix. The Bamix seems a very opinionated design, but interesting. Reviews I’ve seen are split between love/hate, though.
How do you like the Bamix? I was considering replacing my aging Kitchen Aid immersion blender (which I love, but it’s starting to fall apart) with either another Kitchen Aid, or a Braun, or a Bamix. The Bamix seems a very opinionated design, but interesting. Reviews I’ve seen are split between love/hate, though.
I'm a big fan of it. The business end has a very simple and open design that makes it work much better than other immersion blenders I've had. Since the end is all metal I can use it in boiling liquids with no problems. I don't put it in past the metal part, but apparently this bit is watertight as well. The motor is really good. Has a lot of oomph.
I saw a test where they put the bamix up against a few other immersion blenders and it did well. It wasn't the fastest, but among the fast ones. The thing that sets it apart is the clean and simple design. I've had mine for a bit over a decade without any problems.
I'm sure there are other products on the market that you should consider. I must admit that I have not kept abreast of immersion blender news. But I would have no problem recommending it. It is one of the most useful tools in my kitchen.
I saw a test where they put the bamix up against a few other immersion blenders and it did well. It wasn't the fastest, but among the fast ones. The thing that sets it apart is the clean and simple design. I've had mine for a bit over a decade without any problems.
I'm sure there are other products on the market that you should consider. I must admit that I have not kept abreast of immersion blender news. But I would have no problem recommending it. It is one of the most useful tools in my kitchen.
Not the op but I don't think it blends better than others. What I really don't like is the little split in the removable blade where food sticks into and you can only remove using a dental floss or a folded piece of paper. Knowing that I would have got one with a fixed blade.
I just throw the blade in the dishwasher and it has come out clean every time.
You're right that it isn't as fast as some other blenders, but I think it makes up for it with the simple and durable design. I can live with having to run it for a bit longer.
You're right that it isn't as fast as some other blenders, but I think it makes up for it with the simple and durable design. I can live with having to run it for a bit longer.
I do something similar! Usually I will lightly fry or roast the scraps before blending in the vitamix, then straining. It’s great. I am also getting into flavoring oils/fats in a similar way.
The juicer method completely changed my stock-game. After trial and errors, here is what I do now:
- Chop the veggies into a pot and fill with some water
- Pour everything into a stand mixer and blend it (veggie smoothie)
- Cook the soup smoothie, add water if needed and strain in 2-steps (coarse & fine) afterwards
- Let the pulp cool and throw it into a juicer for maximum extraction
---
- You can sauté with oil in the beginning for additional flavours
- Simmer and reduce for more concentrated flavours in the end
Be aware, after tasting these intense veggie flavours, you won't be able to go back to normal veggie stock.
- Chop the veggies into a pot and fill with some water
- Pour everything into a stand mixer and blend it (veggie smoothie)
- Cook the soup smoothie, add water if needed and strain in 2-steps (coarse & fine) afterwards
- Let the pulp cool and throw it into a juicer for maximum extraction
---
- You can sauté with oil in the beginning for additional flavours
- Simmer and reduce for more concentrated flavours in the end
Be aware, after tasting these intense veggie flavours, you won't be able to go back to normal veggie stock.
That's how commercial vegetable stock gets made.
I am suspicious of this approach given that so much fiber is removed from the stock. Surely some of that pulp has flavor to contribute?
Related, David Chang's chicken soup recipe (he did a video on it on the first season of Mind of a Chef) --- poach the chicken by itself, and make a vegetable stock on the side, then dose the vegetable and chicken stock to taste in the final plated dish.
Thanks for the rec!
What I don't like about stock is that you end up throwing out food. (How much of that is indigestible fiber, and how much is nutritive? Not sure, but I suspect the latter is a large portion of the waste...)
It's actually the opposite of that. You use bits of stuff you have left over -- ends from vegetables, chicken carcasses, etc... Throw all that stuff in the freezer instead of throwing it away and use it for stock later.
I guess that's true if you end up with a lot of trimmings. I was thinking of storebought, which... actually, could be made from scraps and other things that wouldn't otherwise be used.
In my own situation, I just wouldn't have enough vegetable trimmings to make stock -- I use the whole vegetable when I cook! For example, I never cut carrot tips off, and I only cut off the black part of the top, which is tiny and wouldn't really go in stock anyhow. Same kind of situation for celery, onions, peppers...
In my own situation, I just wouldn't have enough vegetable trimmings to make stock -- I use the whole vegetable when I cook! For example, I never cut carrot tips off, and I only cut off the black part of the top, which is tiny and wouldn't really go in stock anyhow. Same kind of situation for celery, onions, peppers...
Yeah the advice to "use trimmings!" seems very based in a restaurant situation where (a) lots of vegetables are getting prepped regularly and (b) cutting techniques are based on the goals of speed and uniform product, so you'll see things like squaring up a vegetable into a cuboid before dicing it... which produces "scraps" that aren't wasted, because they can go into a stock!
it's pretty likely that storebought stock is made with 'unattractive' produce that wouldn't otherwise sell, like how tomato sauce is made with ugly or bruised tomatoes.
Very true. I used to always obsess about getting every last little bit of meat off the carcass when I made chicken or turkey stock, but I've since realized that that meat is so dry and tasteless that it doesn't really matter. All the good stuff is in the liquid.
A one gal plastic bag in my freezer fully stuffed with vegetable odds and ends will yield about 2-3 quarts stock when processed with my 6L pressure cooker. I will add seasoning and fill the water to the max line, then strain while it's hot after the cook.
Just a quick note: a pressure cooker is going to be hot enough to destroy some aromatic flavor compounds found in many ingredients, like onion and garlic. It depends on the types of veg you use for stock, but I've had better luck leaving it in a pot for several hours on the lowest heat—it's almost an infusion as opposed to a traditional "stock", but I find that I get way more nuanced flavor out of it that way.
For many recipes there's no need to strain. You can just leave the veg in. For example, with tomatoes and herbs it makes a delicious pasta sauce. Related:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirepoix
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_trinity_(cooking)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirepoix
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_trinity_(cooking)
> What I don't like about stock is that you end up throwing out food.
I have the perfect solution for this. Keep a container in the freezer. Whenever you have an extra unusable vegetable bit from chopping, chuck it in the container. Once the container is full, simmer a big pot with all the bits for 30-45 minutes then strain all the solids.
Good veggie bits to use: onion skins and butts, garlic bits, broccoli stems, carrot greens or butts, celery leaves or those hard bottoms, kale stems, chard stems (although they can really color the stock), asparagus stems, fennel bits, the green leek leaves,
Bad veggie bits, don't use (adds weird/too much flavor): any nightshade bits (bell peppers, tomatoes, eggplant etc), green bean or peadpod tops, squashes, cucumber, zucchini.
Haven't tried other veggies.
I have the perfect solution for this. Keep a container in the freezer. Whenever you have an extra unusable vegetable bit from chopping, chuck it in the container. Once the container is full, simmer a big pot with all the bits for 30-45 minutes then strain all the solids.
Good veggie bits to use: onion skins and butts, garlic bits, broccoli stems, carrot greens or butts, celery leaves or those hard bottoms, kale stems, chard stems (although they can really color the stock), asparagus stems, fennel bits, the green leek leaves,
Bad veggie bits, don't use (adds weird/too much flavor): any nightshade bits (bell peppers, tomatoes, eggplant etc), green bean or peadpod tops, squashes, cucumber, zucchini.
Haven't tried other veggies.
Also avoid turnip/sweet potato skins/unpeeled turnips or sweet potatoes, beets and beet skins, cabbage and Brussels sprouts like plants, dark leafy greens like collard and mustard. Zucchini should be fine tho
Celery leaves are actually delicious torn into salads or garnish on a stir fry. And broccoli stalks can be sliced and roasted or shaved into a salad.
It’s a great addition to the compost heap though!
ETA: shouldn’t use normally edible parts to make stock. Only like the tips and tails of carrots, celery root balls, onion peels… I keep a gallon ziplock in the freezer that accumulates these as I cook other things. When it’s full I usually make chicken stock.
ETA: shouldn’t use normally edible parts to make stock. Only like the tips and tails of carrots, celery root balls, onion peels… I keep a gallon ziplock in the freezer that accumulates these as I cook other things. When it’s full I usually make chicken stock.
How do you get enough carrots if you're just using tips/tails? Or do you supplement that with whole carrots?
Nope I just use whatever is in the bag, I don’t care too much about the ratio. But we try to eat lots of carrot/celery sticks for snacks, and I regularly cook things with mirepoix so there’s not exactly a dearth of them.
I cook for a 5 persons household, and I fill 4 to 5 1L Ziplock bags with vegetable peels, tips/tails and other "garbage", which I then turn into 1 to 2L of stock. We also eat a lot of pasta, and I make sure to keep the "skin" of parmeggiano or grana padano we eat, and throw it in there as well.
If you try it, you will likely be surprised by how mich usually gets thrown away.
If you try it, you will likely be surprised by how mich usually gets thrown away.
You can also "splurge" and make a veggie stock using whole ingredients; for example, I use whole fresh celery, carrots, peppers, onions, and garlic. It's like $5 of ingredients.
You're not throwing out flavor, though. It's the same thing with braises: you generally want two sets of veg, one (very roughly chopped, to make it easy to pull) to braise with, and one (presentation cut) to finish with. After a log cook, vegetable matter is just soggy fiber.
That's close to how I do osso bucco, yeah: finely diced vegetables that go in at the start and will become part of the sauce, plus more attractive larger chunks when there's about 40 minutes left.
Soggy fibre is a good thing in these cases because it thickens the sauce and doesn't draw attention away from the meat and the larger veg chunks.
Soggy fibre is a good thing in these cases because it thickens the sauce and doesn't draw attention away from the meat and the larger veg chunks.
I prefer the peasant version: Don't be so precious about finely chopping, straining, and pureeing. Just throw your delicious ingredients together and eat all of the resulting stew/broth/chili/shabu shabu.
normally stock is made with scraps... for example I will buy a whole rotisserie chicken and then after eating all the flesh, use the remaining carcass for the stock, and then throw it away (no vegetables!)
If I'm making chicken stock the resulting vegetables don't have to be thrown away, but they aren't super appetizing- a mushy texture and not much flavor. Typically it's less than $5 of vegetables, like celery, carrots, onion and garlic. Not clear it's even worth saving given you extracted all the goodness into the stock.
If I'm making chicken stock the resulting vegetables don't have to be thrown away, but they aren't super appetizing- a mushy texture and not much flavor. Typically it's less than $5 of vegetables, like celery, carrots, onion and garlic. Not clear it's even worth saving given you extracted all the goodness into the stock.
“But, you keen, they’re too hard to make! They take too long! Nay. Sit down.”
“the subsequent dinner’s conversation remained imperturbably anchored to how unbelievably tasty it was”
Can’t say I’m a fan of this writing. Nigel Slater is similarly precious and self-regarding.
DIY stock can be great but it’s a long process and the result is usually cloudy, in my experience.
“the subsequent dinner’s conversation remained imperturbably anchored to how unbelievably tasty it was”
Can’t say I’m a fan of this writing. Nigel Slater is similarly precious and self-regarding.
DIY stock can be great but it’s a long process and the result is usually cloudy, in my experience.
I read it in Frasier Crane's voice and thought the same.
That stock sounds rather weak.
A surprisingly simple, yet delicious and versatile stock is Japanese dashi. No long boiling process is needed (though I admit to just use powdered dashi)
From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashi
> The most common form of dashi is a simple broth made by heating water containing kombu (edible kelp) and kezurikatsuo (shavings of katsuobushi – preserved, fermented skipjack tuna or bonito) to near-boiling, then straining the resultant liquid
Though in my experience the resultant liquid is reduced.
A surprisingly simple, yet delicious and versatile stock is Japanese dashi. No long boiling process is needed (though I admit to just use powdered dashi)
From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashi
> The most common form of dashi is a simple broth made by heating water containing kombu (edible kelp) and kezurikatsuo (shavings of katsuobushi – preserved, fermented skipjack tuna or bonito) to near-boiling, then straining the resultant liquid
Though in my experience the resultant liquid is reduced.
My experience with stock boils down how much effort is required to create the stock vs how much and how long can it stay in the fridge.
It takes hours to make good chicken stock and I want to make and store a whole lot of stock so that it is available to me for at least a week or longer. However, I don't have a lot of space in my fridge.
Boiling your stock down to a fraction of the original volume is not a solution .. the carrots and celery and especially the aromatics do not do well when frozen for over a week. edit: typo
It takes hours to make good chicken stock and I want to make and store a whole lot of stock so that it is available to me for at least a week or longer. However, I don't have a lot of space in my fridge.
Boiling your stock down to a fraction of the original volume is not a solution .. the carrots and celery and especially the aromatics do not do well when frozen for over a week. edit: typo
We freeze our stock in 1 cup portions. Makes it very easy to keep tabs on what you have, and you just throw the ice in when you need stock. I find that it does not lose any flavor, really at all.
In the freezer it lasts, essentially, forever.
In the freezer it lasts, essentially, forever.
Stock should just be the liquid. You're not going to get good flavor or texture out of the veg that's simmered for hours.
Make the stock, strain it, put in a freezer bag and freeze flat. Keeps a long time and takes little space.
Then when you want to make soup, thaw the stock, add veg and cook until the right texture.
Make the stock, strain it, put in a freezer bag and freeze flat. Keeps a long time and takes little space.
Then when you want to make soup, thaw the stock, add veg and cook until the right texture.
Yup, details on stocks go back to Escoffier and
A. Escoffier, 'Le Guide Culinaire: The Complete Guide to the Art of Modern Cookery', Translated by H. L. Cracknell and R. J. Kaufmann, ISBN 0-8317-5478-8, Mayflower, New York, 1982.
For beef stock, Escoffier wants bones of old cattle -- so, could use retired bulls and/or dairy cattle. Apparently retired cattle are a source of beef for the fast food hamburger restaurants.
Instead of vegetable stock I just make vegetable soup. I use a 16 quart stock pot and add onions and red potatoes (both browned in olive oil), canned peas, carrots, corn, beans, 10 pounds of frozen mixed vegetables, garlic, thyme, basil, oregano, canned crushed tomatoes, salt, pepper.
Sooo, that mixture makes its own vegetable stock!
I bring the pot to a simmer to sterilize.
I make a flavor mixture: 1 cup of each of soy sauce, BBQ sauce, hot sauce, Worcestershire sauce.
Just before serving, I add some water (don't have much in the 16 quart pot) and some of flavor mixture. It tastes good!
A. Escoffier, 'Le Guide Culinaire: The Complete Guide to the Art of Modern Cookery', Translated by H. L. Cracknell and R. J. Kaufmann, ISBN 0-8317-5478-8, Mayflower, New York, 1982.
For beef stock, Escoffier wants bones of old cattle -- so, could use retired bulls and/or dairy cattle. Apparently retired cattle are a source of beef for the fast food hamburger restaurants.
Instead of vegetable stock I just make vegetable soup. I use a 16 quart stock pot and add onions and red potatoes (both browned in olive oil), canned peas, carrots, corn, beans, 10 pounds of frozen mixed vegetables, garlic, thyme, basil, oregano, canned crushed tomatoes, salt, pepper.
Sooo, that mixture makes its own vegetable stock!
I bring the pot to a simmer to sterilize.
I make a flavor mixture: 1 cup of each of soy sauce, BBQ sauce, hot sauce, Worcestershire sauce.
Just before serving, I add some water (don't have much in the 16 quart pot) and some of flavor mixture. It tastes good!
> For beef stock, Escoffier wants bones of old cattle
He worked most of his career in London hotels and restaurants. He complained that you can't get proper old cattle in Britain; he said we slaughtered them too young, no older than two years. For stock, he wanted animals aged 4 years, or even older.
He worked most of his career in London hotels and restaurants. He complained that you can't get proper old cattle in Britain; he said we slaughtered them too young, no older than two years. For stock, he wanted animals aged 4 years, or even older.
I've lately been putting 1-2 star anise in my stockpot when I'm making stock and I'm totally obsessed with it.
Star anise is an ingredient in Vietnamese pho recipes. The liquid is essentially a beef stock.
Mind you, I've not made pho successfully, but I've read a few recipes for it and tried making it a couple times.
Mind you, I've not made pho successfully, but I've read a few recipes for it and tried making it a couple times.
Try ajwain next time.
Small amount, it's strong.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajwain
Small amount, it's strong.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajwain
Oh I know where you're coming from, but a point of stocks is that they can be the basis for many things. Think of the flavorings as a "tilt". If you use star anise right from the start it tilts toward (to my taste) a generic Asian direction. If this is where it ends up, mainly, that's awesome. Otherwise you can easily make a tea of those star anise and add that later.
Knorr stock concentrate is pretty good in a pinch. Cheap, plentiful, and fast.
I've been pretty happy with "better than bouillon"
Whenever I make stock I make a lot and then freeze it in ice cube trays. Pop out into a gallon ziplock and keep in the freezer. Same convenience at time of use, for slightly more work to make it, but IMO it’s a superior result (especially when you consider chicken/beef/veal stock vs concentrate) so i’m willing to go through with it.
Kitchen Accomplice is worth looking at.
Question to all the HN users cooking broth on vegetable scraps:
How do you determine what part of the vegetable is good enough for stock, but not good enough to eat?
Off my the top of my head:
- People say carrot peelings go in the stock, but I am assuming no one is throwing their potato peeling in the stock. (I use neither - that's why I'm peeling it)
- Do you use the carrot top? The part you cut off so as not to eat the green. What about the green?
- What about either end of an onion? The paper like skin? If so, do you wash it?
How do you determine what part of the vegetable is good enough for stock, but not good enough to eat?
Off my the top of my head:
- People say carrot peelings go in the stock, but I am assuming no one is throwing their potato peeling in the stock. (I use neither - that's why I'm peeling it)
- Do you use the carrot top? The part you cut off so as not to eat the green. What about the green?
- What about either end of an onion? The paper like skin? If so, do you wash it?
There's a bit of trial and error to figure it out, depending on the vegetables you eat. Some things make bad stock (e.g. the inner membranes of a bell pepper or any cruciferous veggies will be bitter), some make little difference (the papery onion skin), others are great (carrot peelings).
A good stock will have some carrots (peels or chunks), celery (leaves are great for this), onion (the ends are perfect), tomatoes (again, the cut off ends are perfect), and probably whatever parsley or any other veggies that are hanging around and will spoil before I eat them. I keep the flavor profile pretty neutral so maybe a bit of pepper and salt but nothing else.
I don't throw in anything that is obviously bad or filthy, but a quick rinse at best is really all you need. The stock will be boiled at least once, more than likely twice (when you cook with it) so I'm more concerned with flavor than bacteria.
A good stock will have some carrots (peels or chunks), celery (leaves are great for this), onion (the ends are perfect), tomatoes (again, the cut off ends are perfect), and probably whatever parsley or any other veggies that are hanging around and will spoil before I eat them. I keep the flavor profile pretty neutral so maybe a bit of pepper and salt but nothing else.
I don't throw in anything that is obviously bad or filthy, but a quick rinse at best is really all you need. The stock will be boiled at least once, more than likely twice (when you cook with it) so I'm more concerned with flavor than bacteria.
Fish stock is an underrated one too. I’ve been getting into making sushi from whole fish and inevitably you end up with some bits and pieces from the fish, like the pin bones or the leftover spine. Boil it with some ginger and you’ll get a tasty stock with a deep umami. Add in the fish head if you want some gelatin. You can even buy fish bones for very very cheap if you want to skip a step. Shrimp shells are another easy source for a savory broth.
Fish stock? Ah, add some white wine, mushrooms, and shallots and use it to poach some scallops. Reduce the stock, thicken with a flour-butter roux and add heavy cream. Combine with the scallops, heat through, broil to get a little browning on the top.
Used to do that a lot, and now that a local store has a lot of good looking scallops may again!
Used to do that a lot, and now that a local store has a lot of good looking scallops may again!
When I was young, I worked in restaurant kitchens. One dish we made, Coquilles Saint-Jacques, was essentially this. Of late, I've only seared scallops or wrapped bacon around them, but it was delicious and you may get me to go back to my old ways, at least once.
I've always struggled with fish stock, it comes out somehow bland. I've read different methods - removing all the meat and leaving only bones vs using skin/head etc. Do you have any tips? (also any tips for avoiding the whole house smelling of fish?)
Fish stock, you only cook it for around 30 mins. I remember reading somewhere that fish stock loses flavor when you cook for longer times.
The ginger helps with the aroma. What fish are you using? In theory you could age the bones for a few days, since ultra fresh fish actually has less glutamates. You can also roast the bones to get some light color. Or add in some kombu for more umami.
I started spearfishing recently. All the "cool" people are dry aging their catch. I didnt realize aging increases glutamate content.
Also for shrimp/prawn shells, I've seen people cook the shells in oil. The shells are discarded and the oil can be used on noodles and in other dishes.
We usually make miso soup when we make sushi. We use the fish bits and pieces to make the dashi. This adds some nice flavor abd mouthfeel to the finished soup.
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"I am positively mystified why every cook in every household isn’t making this elixir regularly."
goes on to describe a 70+ minute process
There's your answer. Not everyone enjoys cooking, and even fewer enjoy preparatory drudge-work, even when the results are excellent.
goes on to describe a 70+ minute process
There's your answer. Not everyone enjoys cooking, and even fewer enjoy preparatory drudge-work, even when the results are excellent.
How do people strain their stock? I use a seive with a muslin in which I then squeeze to get all the juices, but its unweildy and messy.
This sounds like a job for a centrifuge so I wonder whether the sort of people who home engineered their way to dishwasher sous vide have come up with washing machine stock straining.
I've read some weird hacks but the traditional non-centrifuge way to clarify the stock is to use some protein like ground meat or egg white to "absorb" any discolorant, protein, etc.
First time I made beef stock, I had much more than I needed; so I decided to turn some of it into consommé. You stir beaten egg-white into the stock, and simmer for a few minutes. The egg-white magically gathers the particles in the stock, and floats to form a raft on the surface. You then lift off the raft, to reveal limpidly clear consommé.
My consommé was lovely; but no better than Baxter's tinned consommé (and no worse). I haven't tried again since.
My consommé was lovely; but no better than Baxter's tinned consommé (and no worse). I haven't tried again since.
I just use a fine mesh strainer. If you really want clarified stock, you can simmer it with some egg whites and/or shells, the proteins will agglomerate all the remaining sediment. Strain again and done.
I'd assume with the muslin and squeezing they aren't going after clarified stock.
First through colander and then 1 or 2x through fine mesh strainer.
Like you are trying to pull the juices from the plant matter?
The stock should be flavorful enough as is. You shouldn't need to also squeeze the vegetables to get more flavor (just cook longer if you want that).
I use a mesh sieve and nothing else.
The stock should be flavorful enough as is. You shouldn't need to also squeeze the vegetables to get more flavor (just cook longer if you want that).
I use a mesh sieve and nothing else.
i use a mesh sieve, but i also give the vegetables a press as i'm doing it.
one round through the sieve without the cheesecloth, discsrd large solids, and then one round with the cheese cloth, no squeezing. I don't typically add vegetables to my stock thought, as it seems to me to make more sense to me to add them later, so that the flavors don't evaporate off.
I use a chinois with a wooden tool that comes with the chinois.
I just pour it through my colander and let it drip for 5-10 minutes. Optimal, I guess not, but it's good enough for me.
There are two things a good meat stock provides, one is flavor, and the other is _gelatin_. Vegetable provides the first but not the second, and store bought meat stock has the first, but not the second. A really good homemade meat stock will gel _solid_ if you refrigerate it. I've never found a brand of store bought meat stock that has an appreciable amount of gelatin.
One way to level up your pan sauces at home is to dissolve a packet of clear unflavored gelatin per cup of stock before using it -- give it about 10 minutes to bloom first and then stir it. It'll make it much thicker and richer as it reduces -- and this works for basically any recipe that needs stock.
One way to level up your pan sauces at home is to dissolve a packet of clear unflavored gelatin per cup of stock before using it -- give it about 10 minutes to bloom first and then stir it. It'll make it much thicker and richer as it reduces -- and this works for basically any recipe that needs stock.
As someone who has been a vegetarian for over 25 years I’ve never heard of this. Why would you want your stock to have a thickener? Isn’t it easier to just add a thickener to the food you make so you can control how thick or thin the result is?
You don't add it when you're making or storing the stock. You add it when you're making your sauce. In lots of cases, you're not saucing until the main dish is done and plated.
I am not sure I would use gelatin in a vegetable stock. Things I've used: arrowroot powder, cornstarch, flour, potato starch, agar. A classic veggie gravy would be veggie stock + flour/butter + maybe some tomato paste.
I am not sure I would use gelatin in a vegetable stock. Things I've used: arrowroot powder, cornstarch, flour, potato starch, agar. A classic veggie gravy would be veggie stock + flour/butter + maybe some tomato paste.
A similar effect for vegetarian dishes would be to add agar - changed the mouth feel.
Typically you’d do this while making the dish, not add it to the stock ahead of time .
Typically you’d do this while making the dish, not add it to the stock ahead of time .
A more viscous sauce will adhere to the food it's on better and feels different in your mouth. Most people would describe it as "richer".
You've never heard of using cornstach slurries (sp) to thicken soups? I feel like that's a pretty well known trick for getting the mouth-feel right.
Sorry if I was vague. My question was why you would want your meat stock to have a thickener. I mean I don’t premix all my cornstarch with spices and salt since I want to be able to pick the right amount of aromas and taste separately from how thick I make my soup.
It's more of a mouthfeel thing than a thickener. Gelatin, in the amounts found in a good stock, will still be quite liquid when the stock is at serving temperature, but will sort of coat your mouth with flavor even when the broth hasn't been thickened with a roux or cornstarch.
They were pointing out that with meat stocks it depends what went into the pot - a good home made (or restaurant) one typically already has enough to make it “gel” in the fridge. The box types you mostly get in a store didn’t have this, so might want to add if your recipe assumes it.
Ah, got it - your comment(s) make more sense now for sure.
Discovered by accident that really low end pork from the supermarket, which I throw in the slow cooker for various uses, yields a great nearly solid stock. I was going to just use the lard swimming on the top but when I tasted the stuff that solidifies underneath it was delicious.
There's a technical name for that stuff. That's one on the main ingredients of Spam.
Can find it here, think it's a brand that mostly sell to restaurants. It's like a package of jelly when it comes out of the fridge, have to spoon it out.
Otherwise I use gelatin in pan sauces if I'm not using flour or other thickeners. Also easier to hit the right consistency as I can just add more unlike with flour that should be cooked in fat first.
Otherwise I use gelatin in pan sauces if I'm not using flour or other thickeners. Also easier to hit the right consistency as I can just add more unlike with flour that should be cooked in fat first.
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Related: if you ever get a $5 Costco rotisserie chicken, don't throw it away when you're done with it! Put the rest in a small pot with some water and let it barely simmer for a long time (6-12 hours). Taste it every few hours, adding salt and stirring. Strain out the bones and other gunk, and you'll end up with delicious mostly-homemade chicken broth.
What’s the logic in tasting and salting throughout? If you salt it to taste then it will end up getting too salty as it reduces, forcing you to top it up with more water (reducing the flavour from the meat). Why not just make the stock without salt, then use it to make something, and then taste and salt that other thing perfectly?
Fair point. For me, the broth is the final product -- it's chicken soup!
I don't know about that strategy in particular per se (though I'll spitball a rationale at the end if you're curious), but when making soup you generally want to split your salt between a conservative amount up-front and salting to taste at the end. Doing so
1. Ensures chunks of meat, veg, ... can absorb a little salt. Potatoes especially benefit from this.
2. Serves as a minor tenderizing agent for meat chunks (the effect is very small, you should pre-salt or pre-brine if you want it to be large).
3. Mildly dehydrates the other soup ingredients via osmosis, and prevents them from plumping up via osmosis the other direction when they have some internal salts. This concentrates flavors in the chunky bits and generally gives a bit nicer texture.
4. Gives you a smaller "gap" of remaining salt to add at the end. That's important because smaller quantities are easier for us to judge accurately, so you can get the salt level right in fewer iterations, and because a lot of people aren't methodical when taste-testing salt and accidentally saturate their taste buds if they have to try a few times (leading to an overly salty soup -- even to their own taste buds a few minutes later).
It has a few other minor effects. As always in cooking, those are just "changes" and not necessarily "positive changes" (and again, for most dishes the effects are small), but I usually like soups I pre-salt a bit better than ones I don't.
As to the actual technique you asked about, I think the biggest benefit would be an extension of point (4) above. Salting in small amounts with large gaps in time allows your taste buds time to recover and makes it easier to dial the salt in perfectly. If you frequently make stock you'll get a feel for what it "should" taste like at each stage, so the decreasing water volume will wind up mattering less than you might think.
Mind you, I don't personally like to salt my stocks. You have very different salt requirements for different end uses. If it's salty enough for a soup (which has tons of added water), it can't make a passable pan sauce (which has almost no extra volume comparatively). Adding the salt explicitly in each recipe is easier for me to work with personally. It also makes it easier to accommodate the occasional guest on a low sodium diet.
Tangentially, I often prefer to cook my stocks down into something like a demi-glace. They take less space in the fridge, they keep better, they're easier to use in pan sauces (where you don't want much extra water and need to be careful which stage you add the stock if you have to cook water out), they're no harder to use for soups (just add more water as desired), and I find them a bit easier to portion that way (if a recipe has specific texture expectations, you need to account for water percentage somehow, and having it all gone is an easy mechanism; even for other recipes, breaking off a chunk about the right size is fast, mess-free, and dishes-free, which is slightly less the case with liquid stocks). The biggest downside is just removing the hot water vapor from my home (old apartment, poor air-flow). I've been in kitchens where that's a non-issue, but at present demi-glace is a wintertime activity when I don't mind having a few doors open to pull fresh, cold air in.
Another tangential tip, roast the bones (250F for 6h, or 400F for 2) and meat scraps before turning them into stock. Most end uses benefit from the extra richness.
1. Ensures chunks of meat, veg, ... can absorb a little salt. Potatoes especially benefit from this.
2. Serves as a minor tenderizing agent for meat chunks (the effect is very small, you should pre-salt or pre-brine if you want it to be large).
3. Mildly dehydrates the other soup ingredients via osmosis, and prevents them from plumping up via osmosis the other direction when they have some internal salts. This concentrates flavors in the chunky bits and generally gives a bit nicer texture.
4. Gives you a smaller "gap" of remaining salt to add at the end. That's important because smaller quantities are easier for us to judge accurately, so you can get the salt level right in fewer iterations, and because a lot of people aren't methodical when taste-testing salt and accidentally saturate their taste buds if they have to try a few times (leading to an overly salty soup -- even to their own taste buds a few minutes later).
It has a few other minor effects. As always in cooking, those are just "changes" and not necessarily "positive changes" (and again, for most dishes the effects are small), but I usually like soups I pre-salt a bit better than ones I don't.
As to the actual technique you asked about, I think the biggest benefit would be an extension of point (4) above. Salting in small amounts with large gaps in time allows your taste buds time to recover and makes it easier to dial the salt in perfectly. If you frequently make stock you'll get a feel for what it "should" taste like at each stage, so the decreasing water volume will wind up mattering less than you might think.
Mind you, I don't personally like to salt my stocks. You have very different salt requirements for different end uses. If it's salty enough for a soup (which has tons of added water), it can't make a passable pan sauce (which has almost no extra volume comparatively). Adding the salt explicitly in each recipe is easier for me to work with personally. It also makes it easier to accommodate the occasional guest on a low sodium diet.
Tangentially, I often prefer to cook my stocks down into something like a demi-glace. They take less space in the fridge, they keep better, they're easier to use in pan sauces (where you don't want much extra water and need to be careful which stage you add the stock if you have to cook water out), they're no harder to use for soups (just add more water as desired), and I find them a bit easier to portion that way (if a recipe has specific texture expectations, you need to account for water percentage somehow, and having it all gone is an easy mechanism; even for other recipes, breaking off a chunk about the right size is fast, mess-free, and dishes-free, which is slightly less the case with liquid stocks). The biggest downside is just removing the hot water vapor from my home (old apartment, poor air-flow). I've been in kitchens where that's a non-issue, but at present demi-glace is a wintertime activity when I don't mind having a few doors open to pull fresh, cold air in.
Another tangential tip, roast the bones (250F for 6h, or 400F for 2) and meat scraps before turning them into stock. Most end uses benefit from the extra richness.
I do this when I get a roast chook (also at some carrot, onion and whatever else is wilting in the fridge), but the resulting stock isn't as flavourful as a dedicated chicken stock. I think since the bones have already been cooked, they've leeched some of their flavour into the meat. Also, there's just not enough quantity of bone from one (small) roast chicken (unless you're making a small amount of stock)
No one on this site should be contributing to a system that lets you buy a cooked chicken for $5! It’s destroying livelihoods and the environment.
This is my go-to method (combined with a pressure cooker). It's rather stunning just how gelled the results are when degreased and cooled.
I do this in my instant pot (35 minutes at high pressure). I don't salt until I'm using it in a recipe.
Don't add salt to homemade stock. A lot of the uses for stock involve reduction, which concentrates any salt. Instead, season with salt when you get to actually using the stock.
"Now you take this home, throw it in a pot, add some broth, a potato. Baby, you got a stew going."
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