Ask HN: Why are there no no-name inkjet printers?
50 comments
It's because it's not the printer. It's the print head. The printer is super simple. The printhead is a marvelous of modern engineering, MEMs and only able to be made in quantity by a handful of firms in the world. If you made your own printer, it would need to use one of their print heads, and they could lock you out. If you wanted to make your own print heads you would need to build a $100m mems semiconductor plant
The way that could happen would be like for all other marvels of engineering.
Foreign company sets up shop to make the print heads. That factory becomes excellent at making them, and starts making extras for the black market.
Foreign company sets up shop to make the print heads. That factory becomes excellent at making them, and starts making extras for the black market.
This isn't really like that. Making state of the art printheads is more similar to things like camera sensor chips. Only a handful of companies have the tech to make them, its not a simple matter of buying some machines and putting them in a factory. It's a true marvel, not a middle of the road marvel.
And even the Chinese ripoff crap that uses a printhead (see also: those little handheld "pocket printer" things that let you "print on anything") just uses an HP 62 cartridge carrier and knockoff HP 62s.
(The HP 62 is the backbone of HP's TIJ 2.x platform, which is their OEM printing engine platform for specialty applications. They even sell blank tri-tank 62 carts for you to fill with your own specialty inks and materials to jet with the cartridge since it's got the onboard printhead.)
(The HP 62 is the backbone of HP's TIJ 2.x platform, which is their OEM printing engine platform for specialty applications. They even sell blank tri-tank 62 carts for you to fill with your own specialty inks and materials to jet with the cartridge since it's got the onboard printhead.)
How is this different from, say, smartphone components? There are no-name phones. Are they all using Samsung or Apple screens that fell off a truck? I think not.
No-name phones end up using chipsets/radios from varios manufacturers: unisoc, broadcom, mediatek, rockchip, ...
They can just grab a reference schematic and pcb and tune it a bit and get it manufactured. They all use mostly the same interfaces and protocols, like mipi dsi for lcds, so they can have many almost drop-in alternatives to choose depending on availability.
For printheads, it's likely that there are no common standards, each manufacturer has it's own head-cartridge interface, so it's probably more expensive to remain open to changes, reducing the potential profits
They can just grab a reference schematic and pcb and tune it a bit and get it manufactured. They all use mostly the same interfaces and protocols, like mipi dsi for lcds, so they can have many almost drop-in alternatives to choose depending on availability.
For printheads, it's likely that there are no common standards, each manufacturer has it's own head-cartridge interface, so it's probably more expensive to remain open to changes, reducing the potential profits
Well, that's on me for saying "smartphone components" when I really wanted to emphasize the screens. Can smartphone screens be made in a significantly less expensive factory than print heads? Why or why not?
Well there's a reason why every flagship phone has Samsung display
Because of scale factor. LG, Philips and Samsung because of large scale production, selling screens really very cheap, much cheaper than could small scale factory.
Equipment to produce screens is not something from other world, they are not cheap but achievable for business, but on small scale will not be cheaper than priced LG or Philips screen, even without considering taxes and fees of marketplaces (could add 2x-8x of cost).
If some small factory will try to enter market, it will immediately become bankrupt, because nobody will buy more expensive than from LG or Philips.
Exist possible exceptions - some Industrial or Space or Military applications (or for example, Medical), where customer have very specific needs and could pay additional money for them.
Equipment to produce screens is not something from other world, they are not cheap but achievable for business, but on small scale will not be cheaper than priced LG or Philips screen, even without considering taxes and fees of marketplaces (could add 2x-8x of cost).
If some small factory will try to enter market, it will immediately become bankrupt, because nobody will buy more expensive than from LG or Philips.
Exist possible exceptions - some Industrial or Space or Military applications (or for example, Medical), where customer have very specific needs and could pay additional money for them.
They cannot, just like the chips they are made in very large, expensive plants. There are only a handful of display manufacturers, especially as yoi get up to big panels.
Your foundational analogy is faulty, smartphones are not easy to make.
You can buy some chips for cents, that doesn't mean the factory that made them is any less amazing or difficult to build and operate. The cost of the individual product doesn't necessarily tie to the cost of the plant.
Your foundational analogy is faulty, smartphones are not easy to make.
You can buy some chips for cents, that doesn't mean the factory that made them is any less amazing or difficult to build and operate. The cost of the individual product doesn't necessarily tie to the cost of the plant.
Yes, they usually are. They're usually from the same factory that supplies Samsung, apple, etc. Samsung gets the best screens, the ones with a few dead pixels go to the no-name manufacturers. There are YouTube videos about this. There is also a whole market of used "shucked" smartphone components.
There are ink cartridges which include the print head, like HP 54/78. I think they were designed before the DRM enshittification trend took hold, so I don't think there is any way to "lock out" independent uses.
The strategy on printers has largely been, “lose money on their hardware and make it back on the ink.” If you were to go to market against them you would be competing with something that is already losing money. For your average consumer it’s probably not worth buying a machine that is 10x better for 20x the price.
Yes, your argument corresponds to the Western understanding of a market economy.
But the world has been flooded with incredibly cheap electronics for years - some of them highly subsidized. It is apparently still profitable for this market to solder out components from used devices and reuse them in new devices.
And not just for toys or everyday appliances such as flashlights, but also for medical devices or devices with precision mechanics. I'm just surprised that inkjet printers are the exception here.
But the world has been flooded with incredibly cheap electronics for years - some of them highly subsidized. It is apparently still profitable for this market to solder out components from used devices and reuse them in new devices.
And not just for toys or everyday appliances such as flashlights, but also for medical devices or devices with precision mechanics. I'm just surprised that inkjet printers are the exception here.
Phrasing it as the "Western understanding" of how market economies work suggests there's an alternative, perhaps in your view more correct, understanding of how markets work. Usually we don't use the phrase "Western understanding of gravity", despite it being originally formalized in the West.
Is that your intention here? If so, what would be a more suitable market environment to allow for your production of no-name inkjet printers? :)
Is that your intention here? If so, what would be a more suitable market environment to allow for your production of no-name inkjet printers? :)
Oh sorry, I thought it had become commonplace that the free market economy was more a construct of the "West" (Europe and USA) and that communism and Marxism were the driving forces behind the market in the "East" (Russia, Asia).
Sorry, that was in no way meant to be pejorative. I'm not an economist and for sure not a racist.
Sorry, that was in no way meant to be pejorative. I'm not an economist and for sure not a racist.
> communism and Marxism were the driving forces behind the market in the "East" (Russia, Asia).
Could you provide some examples of technological innovations, created in Asia and driven by communism?
Because, as I know, all modern high tech in Asia are made for free market, driven by will to earn money, or copy-pasted from earlier development from other countries.
Could you provide some examples of technological innovations, created in Asia and driven by communism?
Because, as I know, all modern high tech in Asia are made for free market, driven by will to earn money, or copy-pasted from earlier development from other countries.
May I ask why you want inkjet specifically?
In my experience, it’s often not worth it.
I have settled on a monochrome laser printer from Brother. It’s very reliable. Buying a toner cartridge is not exactly cheap but not really too expensive either. They last quite long. The printer itself does what it should, without hassle.
At least for me, I rarely have the need for printing in colour. And AFAIK, inkjets need regular use to not “clog up”. So I’ve come to the conclusion that it doesn’t suite my common use-case.
In a situation where I must have color I can go to the office, or the local library. Or even a print shop if I need something really fancy. But honestly, I think the last time I printed something in colour was over five years ago.
Sometimes my wife print photos, but that can be ordered via Internet, so we haven’t found that to be a reason to buy an inkjet either.
In my experience, it’s often not worth it.
I have settled on a monochrome laser printer from Brother. It’s very reliable. Buying a toner cartridge is not exactly cheap but not really too expensive either. They last quite long. The printer itself does what it should, without hassle.
At least for me, I rarely have the need for printing in colour. And AFAIK, inkjets need regular use to not “clog up”. So I’ve come to the conclusion that it doesn’t suite my common use-case.
In a situation where I must have color I can go to the office, or the local library. Or even a print shop if I need something really fancy. But honestly, I think the last time I printed something in colour was over five years ago.
Sometimes my wife print photos, but that can be ordered via Internet, so we haven’t found that to be a reason to buy an inkjet either.
Forst the first part, I totally agree: I've had a Kyocera 1030D since 2008 and apart from a single component, which I repaired myself, it works as it did on the first day.
But for color printing or photos, laser printers are simply too expensive (and quality is BAD) and I know a lot of people who buy an inkjet "just to be on the safe side" and keep hearing that they break down after being on vacation, for example.
I live in Germany and with Covid the last copy stores have died.
But for color printing or photos, laser printers are simply too expensive (and quality is BAD) and I know a lot of people who buy an inkjet "just to be on the safe side" and keep hearing that they break down after being on vacation, for example.
I live in Germany and with Covid the last copy stores have died.
Yeah, that’s why I believe inkjet printers are better suited for commercial shops than for home use. What home users are motivated to buy enough ink to print a bunch of pictures every 2-3 weeks just to prevent clogging?
Sad to hear about the print shops closing down. In our metro are I believe there are some left. They probably charge a lot though, haven’t tried them TBH. Then there’s always Vistaprint and similar companies where you order prints and get them sent home. The quality seems to be quite okay.
Sad to hear about the print shops closing down. In our metro are I believe there are some left. They probably charge a lot though, haven’t tried them TBH. Then there’s always Vistaprint and similar companies where you order prints and get them sent home. The quality seems to be quite okay.
"What home users are motivated to buy enough ink to print a bunch of pictures every 2-3 weeks just to prevent clogging?"
School age children and their parents.
I bought an (inkjet) printer because the kids asked and asked! They needed a lot of prints for their school and activities. We use it constantly now that we have it, for many home and family usages where color is often needed (but not always). We have an ink subscription because it’s much easier.
When I was younger I had advanced inkjet printers for creative uses, arts, etc., but then entirely stop using one for years, until… kids.
Color printers are niche now, but for some segments of the population still very much needed.
School age children and their parents.
I bought an (inkjet) printer because the kids asked and asked! They needed a lot of prints for their school and activities. We use it constantly now that we have it, for many home and family usages where color is often needed (but not always). We have an ink subscription because it’s much easier.
When I was younger I had advanced inkjet printers for creative uses, arts, etc., but then entirely stop using one for years, until… kids.
Color printers are niche now, but for some segments of the population still very much needed.
We have a colour inkjet, it actually does seem to mostly work even though it's only used sporadically. Generally agree with your assessment though: cheap used laser. Make sure you know about the consumables, but I'm happy with knowing that it's cheaper than inkjet and not being picky about the exact cost.
I suspect it's because inkjet/laser printers are actually very complicated devices and it's not that easy to create viable alternatives - especially when the Western companies are already selling their printers at or below cost.
It's not no-name, but Xiaomi has a line of printers under the Mijia brand if you want some Chinese inkjet or laser printers.
Depending on what you're after, Brother inkjet printers probably check some of the boxes.
Ink is open
Drivers are pretty open and full featured
Printers often have quite a bit of open features for accessing directly.
I used to think print heads were pretty common and learned otherwise when looking at apps like Qimage Pro to get different usage out of it
Ink is open
Drivers are pretty open and full featured
Printers often have quite a bit of open features for accessing directly.
I used to think print heads were pretty common and learned otherwise when looking at apps like Qimage Pro to get different usage out of it
Not so much anymore...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31860131
What's 2023's word of the year? Enshittification...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31860131
What's 2023's word of the year? Enshittification...
Like many things, looking a little more uncovers a little more.
This statement is still generally true of Brother, even if they have a few printers that might not be. I sincerely doubt all of their printers are compromised that are currently on the market.
Considering the number of years someone keeps a printer (5-10-15), finding one that is still not locked in some way is not difficult. It's just up to the buyer to be informed.
It's not new either.
I had an ancient IBM 4019 laser printer for years. Still would, if my better half had not asked if I really print black and white that often. 15,000 pages per toner cartridge which would make people blush. This was at a time where HP Laser printers were cheap, invincible and easy to refill.
The other side of this is to simply invest in an eco-tank/big inkjet tank printer. Brother has them. Epson is really worth considering.
I purchased an Epson ET-8500/ET-8550 after looking at what kin of printing I might be doing long term (more photos than I ever had), and it's been a nice.
This statement is still generally true of Brother, even if they have a few printers that might not be. I sincerely doubt all of their printers are compromised that are currently on the market.
Considering the number of years someone keeps a printer (5-10-15), finding one that is still not locked in some way is not difficult. It's just up to the buyer to be informed.
It's not new either.
I had an ancient IBM 4019 laser printer for years. Still would, if my better half had not asked if I really print black and white that often. 15,000 pages per toner cartridge which would make people blush. This was at a time where HP Laser printers were cheap, invincible and easy to refill.
The other side of this is to simply invest in an eco-tank/big inkjet tank printer. Brother has them. Epson is really worth considering.
I purchased an Epson ET-8500/ET-8550 after looking at what kin of printing I might be doing long term (more photos than I ever had), and it's been a nice.
Digression: "What's 2023's word of the year..." I agree with the concept but I wish there was another word for it. The s-word annoys me in a way that the f word doesn't. Also, if you want to explain this to young kids that "shouldn't" say the s-word, you don't also want to explain why it's ok in this context but not *that". Using obscenities correctly is an arcane art form. (grin).
Inkjets are complicated, hard to get right and companies that make them have to hire electrical engineers, software engineers, firmware engineers, hardware engineers, mechanical engineers, chemical engineers, experts in microfluidics and more. Not to mention, I bet a lot of stuff is protected by patents owned by HP, Funai, Xerox and Epson to mention a few.
Add to that, the market model is mostly a "razors and blades" model where you sell the hardware at or below cost and charge more for the ink and everyone hates you for it.
Add to that, the market model is mostly a "razors and blades" model where you sell the hardware at or below cost and charge more for the ink and everyone hates you for it.
Well, look at what Japan did in the 80s. Took existing products, improved them and registered their own patents. As if China would ever care about patents... Look at the clones that Ali and his brother TEMU are flooding us with ;)
(re: lasers...)
Also, don't ignore the used market. The price of a used printer can be low enough (if you are somewhat patient) that new printers are either an impulse buy or a very carefully researched one. (ie., not in the middle).
I have two of the aforementioned Brother laser printers (older generation), $20 each. If I see another using the same cartridges for a similar price I'll grab it and toss everything except the toner unit and the tray (no space for three printers).
Edit: if you go this route you should be somewhat familiar with the age of the tech (so, you aren't absolved of some research). For me, it's a bit simpler for now, I already have consumables for the TN420, so I just look for that. At some point it'll be old and I'll have to do the roadwork for something newer.
Also, don't ignore the used market. The price of a used printer can be low enough (if you are somewhat patient) that new printers are either an impulse buy or a very carefully researched one. (ie., not in the middle).
I have two of the aforementioned Brother laser printers (older generation), $20 each. If I see another using the same cartridges for a similar price I'll grab it and toss everything except the toner unit and the tray (no space for three printers).
Edit: if you go this route you should be somewhat familiar with the age of the tech (so, you aren't absolved of some research). For me, it's a bit simpler for now, I already have consumables for the TN420, so I just look for that. At some point it'll be old and I'll have to do the roadwork for something newer.
What is the use case for an inkjet printer at home? Photos?
I have owned tons of printers in my life, but never an inkjet.
They're lower resolution, slower, nuch less reliable, and more expensive than any laser in the long term. Are the colors better than a color laser? I've never compared them.
I have owned tons of printers in my life, but never an inkjet.
They're lower resolution, slower, nuch less reliable, and more expensive than any laser in the long term. Are the colors better than a color laser? I've never compared them.
They are usually much higher resolution than a laser printer. The colours are also much better (there are many different types you can use for different processes) than a laser and there is a wide choice of medium for printing on. They are also very reliable if used regularly.
However, I think most people buy inkjets because when they need to buy a printer they see one for $30 and think that will suffice. And you are buying anything but a good inkjet at that price.
I own a colour laser for personal use because I print low tens of sheets a few times a year, and experience has told me that will result in dried up ink cartridges if I had an inkjet. I’m still using the manufacturer supplied laser toners from when I bought the printer 7 years ago
However, I think most people buy inkjets because when they need to buy a printer they see one for $30 and think that will suffice. And you are buying anything but a good inkjet at that price.
I own a colour laser for personal use because I print low tens of sheets a few times a year, and experience has told me that will result in dried up ink cartridges if I had an inkjet. I’m still using the manufacturer supplied laser toners from when I bought the printer 7 years ago
Kids and their parents have dozens of small use cases.
I bought a color inkjet printer after years without a printer (I had one for artistic usages before) because the kids needed one (for school and personal activities, work and fun).
We use it every week now that we have it, for many family usages where color is often needed (but not always). We often go beyond 50 pages a month, but not every month, so it’s a moderate usage.
I bought a color inkjet printer after years without a printer (I had one for artistic usages before) because the kids needed one (for school and personal activities, work and fun).
We use it every week now that we have it, for many family usages where color is often needed (but not always). We often go beyond 50 pages a month, but not every month, so it’s a moderate usage.
Color lasers are much more expensive than color Inkjets. Much more.
And many Inkjets are print+copy+scan. To get the same with laser ones, you will have to shell out 3x-4x.
And many Inkjets are print+copy+scan. To get the same with laser ones, you will have to shell out 3x-4x.
Are you talking about the initial outlay only, or is that including the cost of consumables?
I am talking about the initial anount only.
I print too little for my personal needs, sometimes I print several papers going up to ~300 pages in (mostly) black and white. That too, once in 2-3 months.
So, the consumable costs are too little to make a real dent.
I print too little for my personal needs, sometimes I print several papers going up to ~300 pages in (mostly) black and white. That too, once in 2-3 months.
So, the consumable costs are too little to make a real dent.
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Because you don't paid real cost of inkjet printer directly, they sold much cheaper than cost, but you pay difference when buying ink.
This is same business model as with game consoles, PS5 is also sold much cheaper than cost it's hardware on free market, but people than buying games and paying for subscriptions and Sony earn money from fees.
Unfortunately, game console hardware is not cheap to produce and the same with inkjet printer hardware - they are really complicated.
This is same business model as with game consoles, PS5 is also sold much cheaper than cost it's hardware on free market, but people than buying games and paying for subscriptions and Sony earn money from fees.
Unfortunately, game console hardware is not cheap to produce and the same with inkjet printer hardware - they are really complicated.
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Profit margins among printer manufacturers are already below 5% even with the current "inflated" ink prices. That suggests that it doesn't make financial sense to enter the market with a lower cost product.
Not challenging you, but I'm curious what source you have for this stat? I'd be interested in a good source for profit margins for many products, and also in the process behind those numbers.
Most large companies are required to disclose profit margins to their investors and shareholders. In Germany, unternehmensregister.de has such info. But in this case, I got the 5% directly from Brother: https://global.brother/en/investor/highlights/finance
Want to ask, are you looking for a cheap printer, or really asking about why there isn't a low end printer brand? A lot of replies (including mine) are responding to the former question, not the latter.
There are two words that strike sufficient fear into the hearts of the worlds leaders which has likely led to the current state of global printer enshittification:
Counterfeit money
Counterfeit money
That feels like a US problem.
Go find a recent GBP, CAD, or AUD note. Printed on a polymer stock you can't just get at Office Depot, so it doesn't feel like paper. Has clear windows and shiny foil elements in said stock, so if you look at it for 3 seconds, it won't be right.
Although, even throwing the US a bone, they have introduced some better security features, and the intaglio printing process does impart a specific feel that you can detect, it's of limited benefit because they never withdraw notes. I've gotten notes from the 1960s in circulation.
Go find a recent GBP, CAD, or AUD note. Printed on a polymer stock you can't just get at Office Depot, so it doesn't feel like paper. Has clear windows and shiny foil elements in said stock, so if you look at it for 3 seconds, it won't be right.
Although, even throwing the US a bone, they have introduced some better security features, and the intaglio printing process does impart a specific feel that you can detect, it's of limited benefit because they never withdraw notes. I've gotten notes from the 1960s in circulation.
For years, users have bemoaned the seemingly planned obsolescence built into inkjet printers by major manufacturers. They struggle with questionable universal ink formulations (which might destroy the printer header) and resort to illicit maintenance programs to reset (waste) ink tank counters.
Replacing components is either impossible or involves such high labor or part costs (printer head) that it results in a total loss. The European Union has responded indirectly with a repairability mandate. However, simply being repairable doesn't address the potential for spare parts to have built-in expiration dates.
I realize that millions are spent on development and the devices are financed by inks and spare parts - but today you can get even laser and 3D printers with highly complex mechanics for comparatively little money.
Does anyone know of equivalent alternatives to the major providers? I'm not talking about "fine art", but normal home-use stuff.