Apple M4 benchmarks suggest it is the new single-core performance champ(tomshardware.com)
tomshardware.com
Apple M4 benchmarks suggest it is the new single-core performance champ
https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/apple-m4-scores-suggest-it-is-the-new-single-core-performance-champ-beating-intels-core-i9-14900ks-incredible-results-of-3800-posted
116 comments
If only Apple allowed to run VMs and other software like Linux on their iPads, it would be a game-changer. Right now, the iPads are mostly limited to media production tools + everything else you could get in an Android tablet, so it's pretty pointless for a user like me
If the tablet form factor was really a game changer for software development, wouldn’t the surface line and high end android tablets be more popular for programming?
Wouldn’t there actually be some popular Linux tablets out there? (I am aware that there are a couple of niche options)
Touch screen interfaces are just not good for programming. Apple already brought all of the useful parts of the iPad to the Mac when they switched to the m series SOCs. Fanless design, long battery life, instant sleep/wake.
An iPad running macOS has some niche appeal for people who want to travel light but I really don’t see it being a game changer at all.
Wouldn’t there actually be some popular Linux tablets out there? (I am aware that there are a couple of niche options)
Touch screen interfaces are just not good for programming. Apple already brought all of the useful parts of the iPad to the Mac when they switched to the m series SOCs. Fanless design, long battery life, instant sleep/wake.
An iPad running macOS has some niche appeal for people who want to travel light but I really don’t see it being a game changer at all.
Maybe I'm just getting old, but my eyes find even a typical laptop display too straining for programming. I like my desktop monitors.
> If the tablet form factor was really a game changer for software development, wouldn’t the surface line and high end android tablets be more popular for programming?
Not necessarily. The surface line has several hardware fumbles (especially regarding power budgets/efficiency). The A & M series chips could easily whip up most of their competition in the low power (>10 watt) segment, if Apple wanted. AMD and Intel push for high performance at 15-28watts on portables, which is too high for thin tablets.
For maximum contrast: x86 tablets have fans. M1/m2 laptops can be fanless.
(This isn’t to say it’s impossible but rather no company with deep enough pockets cares enough.)
Not necessarily. The surface line has several hardware fumbles (especially regarding power budgets/efficiency). The A & M series chips could easily whip up most of their competition in the low power (>10 watt) segment, if Apple wanted. AMD and Intel push for high performance at 15-28watts on portables, which is too high for thin tablets.
For maximum contrast: x86 tablets have fans. M1/m2 laptops can be fanless.
(This isn’t to say it’s impossible but rather no company with deep enough pockets cares enough.)
I don’t think I’ve heard people complain about the surface performance, power usage, or battery life in a long time. Probably not since the surface pro 3, around the time that intel was making haswell.
Also the Surface Pro 7 was fanless with x86 processors, plus the small one (surface go, I think) is fanless and x86 but does have performance issues.
Also the Surface Pro 7 was fanless with x86 processors, plus the small one (surface go, I think) is fanless and x86 but does have performance issues.
I used an iPad+ssh for programming with a detached Bluetooth keyboard for a while. It was great.
It was much lighter than what I have now, a 2-in-1 with a fold-back keyboard. This opened up possibilities like using a car suction cup mount and a lap desk to get a slightly taller computer while on the couch. Or a lightweight armature.
Plus, vertical orientation on a “laptop” felt really novel and nice. My 2-in-1 can be vertical, but it is clearly an afterthought. The iPad ~4:3 aspect ratio is much nicer for vertical use, and there’s something about the pixel alignment or maybe the screen viewing angles… my laptop screen doesn’t work quite as well sideways.
I switched because I missed i3wm mostly, and generally all of the local Linux software. But no complaints about the hardware.
It was much lighter than what I have now, a 2-in-1 with a fold-back keyboard. This opened up possibilities like using a car suction cup mount and a lap desk to get a slightly taller computer while on the couch. Or a lightweight armature.
Plus, vertical orientation on a “laptop” felt really novel and nice. My 2-in-1 can be vertical, but it is clearly an afterthought. The iPad ~4:3 aspect ratio is much nicer for vertical use, and there’s something about the pixel alignment or maybe the screen viewing angles… my laptop screen doesn’t work quite as well sideways.
I switched because I missed i3wm mostly, and generally all of the local Linux software. But no complaints about the hardware.
I agree regarding the touch interface, but look at the steam deck example, connect it to some monitors and peripherals using Type-C and you have a computing monster that you can use for everything. And having the portability + other programs like final cut and w/e accessible right at your fingers is amazing!
If they could combine iPadOS and macOS, and have some clever way to flick between the iPad UI and the mac one, it would be an incredible device
Plug it into a usb-c dock connected to a screen/keyboard/mouse and it's a Mac, put it on the little stand with the magic keyboard and it's a MacBook, hold it in your hand and it's an iPad
My dream device
Plug it into a usb-c dock connected to a screen/keyboard/mouse and it's a Mac, put it on the little stand with the magic keyboard and it's a MacBook, hold it in your hand and it's an iPad
My dream device
Well, Microsoft tried this, it was called Windows 8. It failed miserably.
Windows 8 failed because it tried to merge desktop and tablet UI paradigms.
Switching between entirely different and separate "UI personalities" could work.
I don't think the pointer vs touch UI is the main thing that people have in mind when wishing for macOS on the iPad though, instead a "proper" UNIX-style filesystem and shell, and the ability to install any software outside the app store via a package manager and without Apple's nanny reflex getting in the way.
Switching between entirely different and separate "UI personalities" could work.
I don't think the pointer vs touch UI is the main thing that people have in mind when wishing for macOS on the iPad though, instead a "proper" UNIX-style filesystem and shell, and the ability to install any software outside the app store via a package manager and without Apple's nanny reflex getting in the way.
That's basically running two OSes. Don't think that's a great idea. We have enough cruft.
So you're saying my Steam Deck, which has both a "game console" UI and a desktop UI mode and lets you switch between them, is somehow running two OSes? Weird argument.
Sadly it did, I had one of the OG Surfaces and really liked Windows 8
I mean, their strategy was awful. They replaced the start menu for the first time with a whole-screen abomination that ruined power user workflows. They made the desktop TOO much like a tablet, it seemed like they wanted one interface for everything.
Apple is very clear about their product differentiation and would never make macOS and ipadOS exact copies. Case in point: when they brought cursor support over, they painstakingly engineered it to work differently and snap to objects on the screen. I think if they did OP's suggestion and had a macOS screen show up when an iPad is connected to peripherals it would actually work out well.
Apple is very clear about their product differentiation and would never make macOS and ipadOS exact copies. Case in point: when they brought cursor support over, they painstakingly engineered it to work differently and snap to objects on the screen. I think if they did OP's suggestion and had a macOS screen show up when an iPad is connected to peripherals it would actually work out well.
First let people seperate photos into different folders....
Have we forgotten the cautionary tale of Steve Ballmer's Windows Phone boondoggle already? Ballmer wanted to use the same codebase for desktops, laptops, phones and tablets.
It goes back further than that too. Microsoft bought the Sidekick and squandered their lead by bringing it onto the Microsoft platform.
I'm reminded of this quote: "A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds."
Laptops and tablets are different devices. We should stop trying to merge them. Every time we do, we end up with something that is a worse version of both things. Tablets need a battery. If the display is detachable, then that creates a weight problem for the laptop. The tablet keyboard is worse than any laptop keyboard.
I said over a decade ago I thought Apple was smart to just have a tablet OS as well as OSX. Don't spend 3 years trying to merge those things. It's a waste of time and gains you nothing. Even the tablet and phone OSs are somewhat distinct (but a lot less so than with OSX).
I always thought Eric Schmidt (at the time) did the right thing with ChromeOS and Android too. There were always questions from people seeking faux "consistency" like "why have 2 OSs? Shouldn't we merge them?" Again, phones and laptops are different things. Let each OS evolve and see if one emerges as a "winner". Otherwise, leave them alone.
It goes back further than that too. Microsoft bought the Sidekick and squandered their lead by bringing it onto the Microsoft platform.
I'm reminded of this quote: "A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds."
Laptops and tablets are different devices. We should stop trying to merge them. Every time we do, we end up with something that is a worse version of both things. Tablets need a battery. If the display is detachable, then that creates a weight problem for the laptop. The tablet keyboard is worse than any laptop keyboard.
I said over a decade ago I thought Apple was smart to just have a tablet OS as well as OSX. Don't spend 3 years trying to merge those things. It's a waste of time and gains you nothing. Even the tablet and phone OSs are somewhat distinct (but a lot less so than with OSX).
I always thought Eric Schmidt (at the time) did the right thing with ChromeOS and Android too. There were always questions from people seeking faux "consistency" like "why have 2 OSs? Shouldn't we merge them?" Again, phones and laptops are different things. Let each OS evolve and see if one emerges as a "winner". Otherwise, leave them alone.
Chrome OS does a fairly decent job with the transition now. I used to use a Lenovo Duet at times. If you had the keyboard / touchpad attached, it would go into the usual desktop mode with floating windows. If it was just the tablet, then windows would tile. Gestures for the usual tasks. It wasn't a complicated system but it did work fairly smoothly.
And then there were the checkboxes which allowed you to extend the OS beyond Chrome OS's initial limitations. Enable Android. Enable Linux. Enable developer mode. But the user (or administrator) could ignore those checkboxes and keep the machine in a fairly locked down state.
Keep imagining a similar abilities on iPads. A seamless transition from desktop mode to touch and back again. With options allowing you to make it into more of a general purpose computer if you want. But the options can be ignored in favor of the walled garden, if that's what the user or school or corporate owners want.
And then there were the checkboxes which allowed you to extend the OS beyond Chrome OS's initial limitations. Enable Android. Enable Linux. Enable developer mode. But the user (or administrator) could ignore those checkboxes and keep the machine in a fairly locked down state.
Keep imagining a similar abilities on iPads. A seamless transition from desktop mode to touch and back again. With options allowing you to make it into more of a general purpose computer if you want. But the options can be ignored in favor of the walled garden, if that's what the user or school or corporate owners want.
Easy porting would make everything slower. People would stop targeting Apple hardware and the machines would be running everything in emulation. Making porting difficult is a strategy. It requires publishers to make the leap and when they do they take full advantage of the hardware.
I seriously hope that this is getting announced at WWDC this year. There is nothing obvious stopping these iPads from running Virtualization.Framework.
Is there really no way to do this?
Sidecar sort of does this right now? If you are fine with the iPad functioning as a low res display that the Mac can send a few windows over to. It doesn't work amazingly well for me but I have used it a few times.
Not officially. You can side load UTM using AltStore which requires you to sign apps using your own developer certificate and re-sign them about once a week to keep it running.
The iPads have had the hardware in the M-series chips and the software in the form of Apple's hypervisor framework in iPadOS for a couple of generations now, but Apple hasn't enabled it to be used officially.
I really wish they would just allow this on iPadOS. It still maintains the sandbox model Apple wants for iOS, it would just give a (contained) outlet for doing things that are difficult in native iPadOS.
The iPads have had the hardware in the M-series chips and the software in the form of Apple's hypervisor framework in iPadOS for a couple of generations now, but Apple hasn't enabled it to be used officially.
I really wish they would just allow this on iPadOS. It still maintains the sandbox model Apple wants for iOS, it would just give a (contained) outlet for doing things that are difficult in native iPadOS.
> The iPads have had the hardware in the M-series chips and the software in the form of Apple's hypervisor framework in iPadOS for a couple of generations now, but Apple hasn't enabled it to be used officially.
They removed the hypervisor framework in addition to the kernel support for virtualization a few months ago unfortunately.
They removed the hypervisor framework in addition to the kernel support for virtualization a few months ago unfortunately.
Within 6 months iPadOS will have side loading in the EU.
Source? I thought the DMA only covers iPhones.
In any case, Apple still wants to "review" apps, and we want (arbitrary) user code execution on device. That's something Apple strictly forbids on iOS/iPadOS AFAIK (which is why we can't even have Firefox addons). Unless we can have at least true side loading, a DMA extension to iPad won't help.
The DMA isn't really the right tool to liberate devices, since it's about market competition not consumer rights. I think it would be better to widely address this along right-to-repair, electronic waste reduction and consumer rights regarding actual ownership. Unconditionally locked hardware is ridiculous.
I wish they would simply unlock the bootloader, so we can have Asahi Linux for iPad. They don't have to do anything else. Although Asahi is on trajectory to exceed MacOS performance and dev usability, I don't think they would lose their existing appstore cattle to Linux, but rather gain new hardware only customers.
In any case, Apple still wants to "review" apps, and we want (arbitrary) user code execution on device. That's something Apple strictly forbids on iOS/iPadOS AFAIK (which is why we can't even have Firefox addons). Unless we can have at least true side loading, a DMA extension to iPad won't help.
The DMA isn't really the right tool to liberate devices, since it's about market competition not consumer rights. I think it would be better to widely address this along right-to-repair, electronic waste reduction and consumer rights regarding actual ownership. Unconditionally locked hardware is ridiculous.
I wish they would simply unlock the bootloader, so we can have Asahi Linux for iPad. They don't have to do anything else. Although Asahi is on trajectory to exceed MacOS performance and dev usability, I don't think they would lose their existing appstore cattle to Linux, but rather gain new hardware only customers.
That was only the beginning: https://www.macrumors.com/2024/04/30/apple-must-allow-app-si...
Thx.
Though, I don't see true sideloading (like on Android) specified. If apps still need Apple's approval, we will get "freedom" who to pay, not what to run. I still don't see device liberation within the scope of the DMA.
However, if we're lucky, Apple may decide the app approval process may not be worth it, if they are not allowed to extort developers anymore, so they may allow unsupervised sideloading as a consequence.
In any case, requirements and reality may take much longer to align than 6 more months, considering Apple's cringeworthy tantrums so far...
Though, I don't see true sideloading (like on Android) specified. If apps still need Apple's approval, we will get "freedom" who to pay, not what to run. I still don't see device liberation within the scope of the DMA.
However, if we're lucky, Apple may decide the app approval process may not be worth it, if they are not allowed to extort developers anymore, so they may allow unsupervised sideloading as a consequence.
In any case, requirements and reality may take much longer to align than 6 more months, considering Apple's cringeworthy tantrums so far...
> Though, I don't see true sideloading (like on Android) specified. If apps still need Apple's approval, we will get "freedom" who to pay, not what to run. I still don't see device liberation within the scope of the DMA.
But if Apple abuses its position as platform gatekeeper with the app approval process and rules, the EU will probably slap them down. The DMA doesn't care about device liberation, but it does care about fairness, so Apple will probably only be allowed to continue this if they act in very good faith towards 3rd parties, which doesn't seem like an Apple thing to do.
But if Apple abuses its position as platform gatekeeper with the app approval process and rules, the EU will probably slap them down. The DMA doesn't care about device liberation, but it does care about fairness, so Apple will probably only be allowed to continue this if they act in very good faith towards 3rd parties, which doesn't seem like an Apple thing to do.
Every new iPad release people beg for this…
You'll have to quantify "people", we're in a bubble inside of a bubble here on HN
There was a Bloomberg article[0] which clickbaity hope-lied about it even. They changed the title ; it said ‘turns’ before, not should; I still have a screenshot from what it really said.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-05-05/apple-...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-05-05/apple-...
In his recent video MKBHD said the same. He’s certainly a tech YouTuber (probably the biggest) but no where as techy as the average HN crowd. A lot of comments on fetter & reddit also speak about this.
They sell 50m+ of them per year and according to Google there are 25m software devs in the world
Even if they made every single one of them buy a new ipad every single year that would still be single digit change of revenue for apple
Even if they made every single one of them buy a new ipad every single year that would still be single digit change of revenue for apple
That 50m+ figure is surely iPads in general, rather than iPads Pro? iPad Pro is specifically marketed to media production professionals as a viable replacement for a laptop, but media production professionals (like the aforementioned tech youtuber) again and again complain that it isn't good enough. It's certainly good for some professional tasks, like drawing, but it seems lacking for things like video editing.
I was really surprised by his review. His review made it seem like technical progress was not a worthy pursuit. We should be satisfied with the status quo and Apple should stop setting goals.
I think it was more of how the latest iPads are still just a spec bump. The hardware has been perfect for several generations, it’s the software that’s holding the hardware back.
I understand that aspect but Apple has no choice but to push the envelopw. How important is his review if he has nothing to say?
M series have always been the champ of single-core benchmarks. AMDs strategy is to have many more cores, albeit not as fast.
The main issue with M series is that a much of performance comes from the memory and that is very expensive to scale.
That's is why Apple is still selling 8GB laptops.
The main issue with M series is that a much of performance comes from the memory and that is very expensive to scale.
That's is why Apple is still selling 8GB laptops.
M series have always been extremely competitive on single-core, but not really "the champ". Now this one is beating the Core i9-14900KS in a device with only modest copper heatsinking (with a heatsink likely less than 3mm thick)! That merits the article title.
M1 Max beat 5950X in overall single-threaded SPEC2017 when it came out. It won big in some MT workloads too.
Punching within its own weight class, laptop chips rather than expecting it to outright beat desktop chips... it beat the 5980HS and 11980HK in every single test.
It just didn't sink into the public consciousness too well at that point because everyone assumed it must have been some erroneous test/outlier.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc...
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc...
Punching within its own weight class, laptop chips rather than expecting it to outright beat desktop chips... it beat the 5980HS and 11980HK in every single test.
It just didn't sink into the public consciousness too well at that point because everyone assumed it must have been some erroneous test/outlier.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc...
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc...
5980HS is a laptop chip, it is more fair to compare it to M1 and maybe M1 pro.
While M1 Max can be used in laptops, the benchmarks I've seen have been for the mini/imac where it doesn't have power and thermal limitations of a laptop.
Besides, the cheapest M1 Max laptop is $1000 more expensive than the most expensive 5980HS laptop :(
While M1 Max can be used in laptops, the benchmarks I've seen have been for the mini/imac where it doesn't have power and thermal limitations of a laptop.
Besides, the cheapest M1 Max laptop is $1000 more expensive than the most expensive 5980HS laptop :(
Going to be an awkward Surface event this month when they have to figure out how to message some accolade about the Snapdragon X Elite
They'll do what every vendor does; find that one workload that it's better at, and play that off as if it's that performant at every workload. Bad at 3DMark? Try Cinebench, Superposition, PCMark, Geekbench, SiSoftware Sandra, or even some other customer benchmarking software no one else uses.
Qualcomm pulled an Apple with all the hyperbolic words and very specific and massaged performance numbers.
Even without the M4 it would be awkward when those chips appear in the real World in real situations.
IMO some people inside Qualcomm have been stretching the truth way too much even internally.
Even without the M4 it would be awkward when those chips appear in the real World in real situations.
IMO some people inside Qualcomm have been stretching the truth way too much even internally.
Worse, it’s going to be a very expensive part.
I know us nerds aren’t the market, but an mATX motherboard with elite x for like $700-800 would be a seller.
I know us nerds aren’t the market, but an mATX motherboard with elite x for like $700-800 would be a seller.
Qualcomm is laughing to the bank because MSFT doesn't have a choice.
but consumers do? (almost) Nobody will pay apple level prices for something that has less software support and, overall, a worse experience than on macos. TBH, other than gaming, not sure why anyone is paying 1k+ for a Windows laptop.
Come to any engineering schools, and I mean real engineering like Mechanical, Electrical, Civil and you will see almost no one uses Mac. The software just isn't there. And even when the software is available, the exhorbitant price of RAM make it a bad deal for many students.
Because despite the hyperbolic praise of the hackers here, Apple devices are worthless for some professional workloads.
Before you ask, I'm one user who has a Razer Blade 16 (4090) and Galaxy Book 4 Ultra that I use for CAD and BIM work. I'll pass on having a dedicated video editor.
Before you ask, I'm one user who has a Razer Blade 16 (4090) and Galaxy Book 4 Ultra that I use for CAD and BIM work. I'll pass on having a dedicated video editor.
The best strategic decision Apple has made in the last 15 years is to vertically integrate and build their own processors.
M-series is so far ahead of the game than an air-cooled M4 has better single-core performance than the best desktop PC chip money can buy. Incredible.
M-series is so far ahead of the game than an air-cooled M4 has better single-core performance than the best desktop PC chip money can buy. Incredible.
I don't understand why the non-Apple world has been so slow to copy Apple here. Are there any Windows or Linux laptops that match even the oldest M1 machines in battery life and performance?
I get that Apple has an advantage over companies like Dell and Lenovo in that they also build the OS but then there are Linux computer companies that have the source for everything and their machines are usually even worse from a performance / watt perspective.
I get that Apple has an advantage over companies like Dell and Lenovo in that they also build the OS but then there are Linux computer companies that have the source for everything and their machines are usually even worse from a performance / watt perspective.
The other CPU catch back after several months, the Apple Silicon is a good marketing prowess, the reality is that Apple CPUs wins because they are the first on to be produced on a new lithography node, because Apple can book a larger quantity than anyone else.
When the other CPU manufacturer produce CPUs on the same CPU node, the performance is matched.
Here Jim Keller explain why CPU architecture doesn't matter a lot in performance now: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16762/an-anandtech-interview-...
Here Jim Keller explain why CPU architecture doesn't matter a lot in performance now: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16762/an-anandtech-interview-...
CPU architecture probably doesn't matter.
But then I'm back to my original question: where are the Linux or Windows machines with great battery life and good performance. Is there anything like what Apple sells at Walmart: a 13.3" MacBook Air with the M1 chip, retina display, and 8 GB of RAM for $700. This is a very old machine at this point and still very hard to beat.
But then I'm back to my original question: where are the Linux or Windows machines with great battery life and good performance. Is there anything like what Apple sells at Walmart: a 13.3" MacBook Air with the M1 chip, retina display, and 8 GB of RAM for $700. This is a very old machine at this point and still very hard to beat.
He does talk about why Apple is doing so well. Architecture, but Apple has IC process, top-level designers, a wide well balanced design and RAM bandwidth advantages.
I'm saying all this as a frustrated ThinkPad buyer. It's been 3.5 years since the first M1 machines went on the market and I still can't buy a ThinkPad as good as the Apple computers of that generation. I have to remember to power off completely before putting my ThinkPad in my bag otherwise I will have a very hot laptop, fans at full, with 50% battery remaining by the time I get to work.
Sometimes it feels like Apple is the only company even trying. It sucks.
Sometimes it feels like Apple is the only company even trying. It sucks.
Is it still true? My Ryzen desktop is a lot faster than my M1 Mini. A laptop Ryzen won't be as fast as my desktop, but it should be close?
Regardless, it certainly feels like an own goal that AMD or Intel hasn't yet released a CPU with at least 256 bit wide on package RAM. They'd be able to capture a higher percentage of the BOM cost of the laptop if they did so on top of the speed benefits.
Regardless, it certainly feels like an own goal that AMD or Intel hasn't yet released a CPU with at least 256 bit wide on package RAM. They'd be able to capture a higher percentage of the BOM cost of the laptop if they did so on top of the speed benefits.
The M1 used in the original MacBook Air has a TDP of around 10 watts. I don't track this closely, but AFAIK there aren't any good performing chips on the PC side of the world that can beat that.
I don't really track this directly, but periodically I look for passively cooled (fanless) laptops. I haven't looked into Ryzen, but it would be a very nice surprise if there are fanless Ryzen laptops out there.
I don't really track this directly, but periodically I look for passively cooled (fanless) laptops. I haven't looked into Ryzen, but it would be a very nice surprise if there are fanless Ryzen laptops out there.
TDP is a lie.
M1 can draw up to 100W.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc...
The real world implications of these number matter more than the numbers themselves.
If you tell me TDP is a lie, I’ll believe you.
However, that doesn’t change the fact that there still aren’t any great fanless laptops from anybody other than Apple. I was attributing it to TDP, but maybe it’s something else.
If you tell me TDP is a lie, I’ll believe you.
However, that doesn’t change the fact that there still aren’t any great fanless laptops from anybody other than Apple. I was attributing it to TDP, but maybe it’s something else.
> The other CPU catch back after several months, the Apple Silicon is a good marketing prowess, the reality is that Apple CPUs wins because they are the first on to be produced on a new lithography node, because Apple can book a larger quantity than anyone else.
Uh, but M2 on TSMC's N5 node is faster and more efficient than AMD's products fabbed with TSMC's N4 node. Edit: more efficient in general, but I meant "faster" in comparison with AMD's latest laptop chips.
> Here Jim Keller explain why CPU architecture doesn't matter a lot in performance now: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16762/an-anandtech-interview-...
Let's see what he has to say:
> But instruction sets only matter a little bit - you can lose 10%, or 20%, [of performance] because you're missing instructions.
20% is quite a lot in the current competitive landscape. Jim Keller is stuck thinking like it's 10+ years ago.
Uh, but M2 on TSMC's N5 node is faster and more efficient than AMD's products fabbed with TSMC's N4 node. Edit: more efficient in general, but I meant "faster" in comparison with AMD's latest laptop chips.
> Here Jim Keller explain why CPU architecture doesn't matter a lot in performance now: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16762/an-anandtech-interview-...
Let's see what he has to say:
> But instruction sets only matter a little bit - you can lose 10%, or 20%, [of performance] because you're missing instructions.
20% is quite a lot in the current competitive landscape. Jim Keller is stuck thinking like it's 10+ years ago.
> but I meant "faster" in comparison with AMD's latest laptop chips.
The 7940HS is way faster than the M2. Efficiency is harder to compare since TDP doesn't mean anything theses days.
The 7940HS is way faster than the M2. Efficiency is harder to compare since TDP doesn't mean anything theses days.
In cinebench, or in (eg) compiling or JVM/Javacode/other bytecode workloads etc?
because even in cinebench the m3 max is already ahead in cinebench 2024 let alone R23...
https://www.notebookcheck.net/R9-7940HS-vs-Apple-M3-Max-16-C...
because even in cinebench the m3 max is already ahead in cinebench 2024 let alone R23...
https://www.notebookcheck.net/R9-7940HS-vs-Apple-M3-Max-16-C...
We were talking about the M2.
The M3 max is on TSMC N3B, which have a +30% of transistor density compared to the TSMC nodes AMD is using (N4).
The M3 max is on TSMC N3B, which have a +30% of transistor density compared to the TSMC nodes AMD is using (N4).
I guess it exists, especially on the Chinese market, but the apps just are not there. Windows ARM is as popular as Windows Mobile 7
Then forget Windows. There are lots of ARM-based Linux machines out there and I don't know of any that can match the performance / watt that Apple gets.
[deleted]
I find this decision to put it in the iPad Pro somewhat puzzling. One consequence of this is that nobody is going to want to buy M3 MacBooks for a while, knowing that such a big leap in performance is around the corner.
Does Apple really sell more iPad Pros than MacBooks to make it worthwhile? I was under the impression that the iPad Pro is a somewhat niche product and the Air is far more popular.
Does Apple really sell more iPad Pros than MacBooks to make it worthwhile? I was under the impression that the iPad Pro is a somewhat niche product and the Air is far more popular.
> One consequence of this is that nobody is going to want to buy M3 MacBooks for a while, knowing that such a big leap in performance is around the corner.
I think this is one of those things that only enthusiasts care about, and if you care that much about performance you’re probably one of the people who buys a new one every year or two anyways so they aren’t really missing out on your revenue.
Most people just need or want a new laptop and order whatever one is currently available.
I think this is one of those things that only enthusiasts care about, and if you care that much about performance you’re probably one of the people who buys a new one every year or two anyways so they aren’t really missing out on your revenue.
Most people just need or want a new laptop and order whatever one is currently available.
I think the theory is that there is going to be a large on-device AI push at WWDC. And iPads generally have a very long refresh cycle. In order for iPads to participate, they needed the M4's.
I think it makes total sense. I speculate the M4 might be too expensive to manufacture for a MBA right now. The iPad Pro is a relatively niche, slow cycle and high-margin product.
People who buy MacBooks aren't suddenly going to stop or switch to Windows because of some Osborne effect. The entry-level M3 MBA is still extremely hard to beat at the same price point.
People who buy MacBooks aren't suddenly going to stop or switch to Windows because of some Osborne effect. The entry-level M3 MBA is still extremely hard to beat at the same price point.
They mentioned during the presentation that they need the new display controller on the M4 to drive the new dual panel display.
> One consequence of this is that nobody is going to want to buy M3 MacBooks for a while
Like how long? M4 MacBook Pros could in theory launch in a month (i.e. WWDC). That's worthwhile.
Like how long? M4 MacBook Pros could in theory launch in a month (i.e. WWDC). That's worthwhile.
I believe that refreshed MacBooks are not expected at WWDC and there may be quite a wait as we are mid-cycle.
> I believe that
Most believed that M4 was not coming either until a last minute rumor. So who knows.
Related rumors: - M3 process is expensive so it's getting dropped ASAP - M4 needed for AI so the whole line is getting refreshed - There's competition from Nuvia etc and M4 is needed to get ahead
Most believed that M4 was not coming either until a last minute rumor. So who knows.
Related rumors: - M3 process is expensive so it's getting dropped ASAP - M4 needed for AI so the whole line is getting refreshed - There's competition from Nuvia etc and M4 is needed to get ahead
M3s are also in mid-cycle. Or rather, they were.
the ipad is not a replacement for macbooks so the assumption is not correct.
I think it's more likely that current owners of m3 macbooks will be enticed to buy m4 ipads and thus apple makes more money.
And owners of older macbooks would buy both the m3 macbook and the m4 ipad
It sounds backwards, but that's how the apple ecosystem works.
I think it's more likely that current owners of m3 macbooks will be enticed to buy m4 ipads and thus apple makes more money.
And owners of older macbooks would buy both the m3 macbook and the m4 ipad
It sounds backwards, but that's how the apple ecosystem works.
I think most of us want an iPad that we can dock into a connected keyboard and use as a laptop. But from Apple's point of view they really need to sell us multiple devices.
I remember the hype around the first M1 and getting one and it actually living up to the hype! It was compiling code twice as fast as the MBP I replaced and was booting way faster and was generally snappier in every way. I ran through lots of benchmarks but also tested on my own code. It was faster than the beefy servers I deployed to.
But the absolute biggest game changer was that it was silent. Completely silent. Hadn’t realised how noisy computers had been until then.
But the absolute biggest game changer was that it was silent. Completely silent. Hadn’t realised how noisy computers had been until then.
I dipped my toes in the water with literally the cheapest M1 I could buy…the base model Mac Mini was on sale for $499 so I sort of impulse bought it to see if it could replace my PC. I was blown away by the performance of this tiny little machine, even with just 8GB of RAM. I’ve since went all in with a M3 Pro MacBook Pro and its performance and battery life are insane. M1 and beyond definitely live up to the hype.
i was as impressed by gaming. being able to run a triple a game like resident evil 4 with everything turned to max on a mac laptop was something new to me.
It's a shame there's still so few high-end games to flex the hardware. Publishers interest in doing Mac ports is still almost zero, as I understand it the Death Stranding and Resident Evil ports only happened because Apple bankrolled them so they'd have something to show off at their hardware launches.
It wasn't always zero, Apple had always advertised videogame potential of Macs for decades while working hard not to realize it. Irony is it had lead to softcore porn lootbox games replacing videogames.
You can get lots of games to work through Apple's Game Porting Kit. My favorite way to do that is with Whisky: https://getwhisky.app
I've had good success with that on my M2 mini, just installed Steam inside it and then let it do its thing behind the scenes.
The only hard failure I've hit (admittedly with a small sample size) was The Talos Principle, which has an intel Mac version that won't run on the M2, and running through Whisky immediately errored as well.
The only hard failure I've hit (admittedly with a small sample size) was The Talos Principle, which has an intel Mac version that won't run on the M2, and running through Whisky immediately errored as well.
I'm convinced that Apple's refusal to natively support Vulkan plays a role in this; I don't know how if MoltenVK is cutting it.
It doesn’t. The number of games that natively target Vulkan are minuscule.
Both Unity and Unreal support metal well (and for a long time, better than Vulkan), especially due to iOS. Even many proprietary engines do.
Even before Vulkan and Metal existed, OpenGL was consistent (before Apple stopped supporting it) and there weren’t many more native games then either.
Someone will no doubt bring up reusing Proton, but they’ll gloss over the differences in platform and also that Game Porting Toolkit exists and does the same thing.
The reality is that, until recently, the number of Mac systems that were gaming ready was a very small number that wasn’t worth focusing on.
Both Unity and Unreal support metal well (and for a long time, better than Vulkan), especially due to iOS. Even many proprietary engines do.
Even before Vulkan and Metal existed, OpenGL was consistent (before Apple stopped supporting it) and there weren’t many more native games then either.
Someone will no doubt bring up reusing Proton, but they’ll gloss over the differences in platform and also that Game Porting Toolkit exists and does the same thing.
The reality is that, until recently, the number of Mac systems that were gaming ready was a very small number that wasn’t worth focusing on.
I've never had a laptop louder than my Intel Macbook Pro under load. That was a uniquely Apple problem, not a general problem.
You can make a pretty silent desktop (more space for heat pipes and large cooling blocks). But I had a Lenovo laptop that was recommended during a Linux excursion and it was loud as well, getting the M1 Air after that was bliss.
Apple were bad, but I don’t remember any of my other non-apple laptops and desktops being particularly quiet either.
If you really cared you could get fanless PCs. A few of the Surface Pro models have been fanless. I had a gorgeous fanless Xiaomi Mi book that had virtually no branding. Basically any fanless PC post SSD introduction are just as silent. From what I've heard some of Apple's newer MBPs with fans can get noisy under load too, particularly the 14".
I wouldn't call my ThinkPad P14s AMD gen whatever loud either. The fan will spin up when multiple cores are under heavy load but compared to the 2018 MBP it replaced it's essentially silent.
I wouldn't call my ThinkPad P14s AMD gen whatever loud either. The fan will spin up when multiple cores are under heavy load but compared to the 2018 MBP it replaced it's essentially silent.
And it's insane how slow the M1 is now compared to the M3 AND how fast it still is compared to pretty much everything in the laptop market!
Yeah I remember that. I bought an M1 Mac Mini. My Ryzen 3700X was on ebay the day after.
I think it'll be a long time until we see an inflection point like that [1].
I also had a Ryzen 3700X, high-end CPU and case fans to make it somewhat quiet under load. Then I got the MacBook Air M1, which was as fast in multi-core use, but felt much faster in daily use to much better single thread performance (turns out that large builds spend quite some time on portions where everything blocks on one unit and the amount of parallelism is 1). And it was completely quiet (no fan).
The Air M1 felt like magic at the time, I could have the power of the 3700X on the train and insanely long battery life.
[1] That said, I got an M3 Pro for work and my private laptop has an M1 Pro and the difference in single-thread performance is certainly noticeable.
I also had a Ryzen 3700X, high-end CPU and case fans to make it somewhat quiet under load. Then I got the MacBook Air M1, which was as fast in multi-core use, but felt much faster in daily use to much better single thread performance (turns out that large builds spend quite some time on portions where everything blocks on one unit and the amount of parallelism is 1). And it was completely quiet (no fan).
The Air M1 felt like magic at the time, I could have the power of the 3700X on the train and insanely long battery life.
[1] That said, I got an M3 Pro for work and my private laptop has an M1 Pro and the difference in single-thread performance is certainly noticeable.
I did the same thing with the MBA but ended up on an M1 Pro. I haven't used anything newer yet but will probably upgrade next year to an M4 Pro (?)
Have they slapped a heatsink on it yet? Otherwise that is going to be bullshit or only measured for a fraction of a second.
Yes, the Apple logo on the back of the iPad is made of copper and acts as a heatsink. They said that in the presentation.
I wonder how many people are going to get Apple-shaped burns and will get told that they're holding it wrong.
Since they got rid of the stickers, they should include Apple-shaped burn pads.
I wonder how many people are going to get Apple-shaped burns and will get told that they're holding it wrong.
Since they got rid of the stickers, they should include Apple-shaped burn pads.
This has been extensively tested with the other M series chips, for example: the MacBooks Air do not have fans, while the MacBooks Pro do.
On very intense workloads, the fanless products do eventually throttle slightly. It's after several minutes, not a fraction of a second.
If you have reason to believe this is only true for M1-3, but not M4, let's hear them.
On very intense workloads, the fanless products do eventually throttle slightly. It's after several minutes, not a fraction of a second.
If you have reason to believe this is only true for M1-3, but not M4, let's hear them.
Will this processor suffer from the same vulnerabilities as was just discovered on the previous M1-3?
The performance/compute density of these is pretty neat, you could fit a lot of them in a 42U rack.
Would love to see some blade or sled hardware based on Apple Silicon, think of the density of cpu/gpu/ram/npu :)
Would love to see some blade or sled hardware based on Apple Silicon, think of the density of cpu/gpu/ram/npu :)
[deleted]
What is nuts? the numbers are for an iPad.
AFAICT, Apple has three major advantages (note that architecture only has minor impact [1])
- first access to the best process
- a great team
- high bandwidth / latency DRAM
Intel & AMD aren't that far behind on #1 and #2, but I'm surprised at how long it's taking them to catch up on #3. If they created and sold a chip with wide low latency DRAM on package they would simultaneously significantly increase their performance and also they would capture a higher proportion of the BOM cost of a laptop.
Pedantic: AMD's MI300X has on package RAM, but it's not exactly a laptop chip...
1: Jim Keller https://www.anandtech.com/show/16762/an-anandtech-interview-...
- first access to the best process
- a great team
- high bandwidth / latency DRAM
Intel & AMD aren't that far behind on #1 and #2, but I'm surprised at how long it's taking them to catch up on #3. If they created and sold a chip with wide low latency DRAM on package they would simultaneously significantly increase their performance and also they would capture a higher proportion of the BOM cost of a laptop.
Pedantic: AMD's MI300X has on package RAM, but it's not exactly a laptop chip...
1: Jim Keller https://www.anandtech.com/show/16762/an-anandtech-interview-...
This piece incorrectly equates core and thread performance. They're not the same for the Intel chip due to hyperthreading/SMT. Measuring thread performance and calling it core performance is deceptive and undersells the capabilities of the Intel chip.