Roman Emperors' Outrageously Lavish Dinner Parties(atlasobscura.com)
atlasobscura.com
Roman Emperors' Outrageously Lavish Dinner Parties
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/ancient-rome-feast-party
16 comments
(31) Trimalchio's name and [the dishes'] weight in silver was engraved on their edges. (cf 38)
Trimalchio would've been an imperative programmer: he knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing?
(41) Vinus mihi in cerebrum abiit.
I hadn't realised "I'm soooo drunk" is attested a few thousand years ago.
(44) (complaints about inflation, and how elites don't care about it)
(45) (our country is the best; we just need to keep up the blood sport)
(46) Nam quicquid illi vacat, caput de tabula non tollit.
Kids these days, always on their tablets...
[I'm not going to bother finishing, because it seems the 1913 english translation upon which I've been relying departs from the original in places. Romans described naughty bits in greek; I wonder how the greeks did their euphemism?]
Trimalchio would've been an imperative programmer: he knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing?
(41) Vinus mihi in cerebrum abiit.
I hadn't realised "I'm soooo drunk" is attested a few thousand years ago.
(44) (complaints about inflation, and how elites don't care about it)
(45) (our country is the best; we just need to keep up the blood sport)
(46) Nam quicquid illi vacat, caput de tabula non tollit.
Kids these days, always on their tablets...
[I'm not going to bother finishing, because it seems the 1913 english translation upon which I've been relying departs from the original in places. Romans described naughty bits in greek; I wonder how the greeks did their euphemism?]
According to Wikipedia, dormice are still considered a delicacy in Slovenia and Croatia.
Currently reading "Emperor of Rome" by Mary Beard where she argues that these parties are probably very exaggerated.
She argues that in the majority of unearthed royal palaces, the kitchens were very small and wouldn't allow to cook such complicated parties.
Besides, she argues, most stories of such big parties were written by sycophants needing royal approval, people anxious to show the importance they didn't have or political enemies with an interest in badmouthing previous emperors (mostly for Nero, Caligula and Elagabalus).
She argues that in the majority of unearthed royal palaces, the kitchens were very small and wouldn't allow to cook such complicated parties.
Besides, she argues, most stories of such big parties were written by sycophants needing royal approval, people anxious to show the importance they didn't have or political enemies with an interest in badmouthing previous emperors (mostly for Nero, Caligula and Elagabalus).
> She argues that in the majority of unearthed royal palaces, the kitchens were very small
This doesn’t seem to allow for the possibility that they would have brought in caterers with their own equipment, as many people throwing a large dinner would still do, and not relied entirely on the house facilities? It’s my (very inexpert) understanding that most kitchens in pre-modern homes were rather cramped, foul spaces, often semi- or fully detached due to odors, smoke, and the risk of fire spreading to the main living quarters. One could see how even in a grand house the kitchen might only be suitable to cook for a small number of people.
Of course I don’t doubt that in these matters Mary Beard knows far more than I do, but that particular line of reading struck me as odd.
This doesn’t seem to allow for the possibility that they would have brought in caterers with their own equipment, as many people throwing a large dinner would still do, and not relied entirely on the house facilities? It’s my (very inexpert) understanding that most kitchens in pre-modern homes were rather cramped, foul spaces, often semi- or fully detached due to odors, smoke, and the risk of fire spreading to the main living quarters. One could see how even in a grand house the kitchen might only be suitable to cook for a small number of people.
Of course I don’t doubt that in these matters Mary Beard knows far more than I do, but that particular line of reading struck me as odd.
It would have been nice if the article had acknowledged that most ancient sources were not particularly reliable and often had axes to grind (praising the current emperor or disparaging his predecessors/enemies).
There are some inaccuracies in this article. For example, the villa on Capri was built by Tiberius, not Augustus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Jovis
Augustus also had a villa on Capri.
Tiberius built Villa Jovis. I believe Augustus ruled from Capri, but I don’t remember him having had a villa. (He did acquire it from Napoli, in exchange for Ischia.)
Do you have a source? Would love to visit the ruins.
Do you have a source? Would love to visit the ruins.
The article didn't mention Villa Jovis. Augustus also established various buildings there. For instance Villa/Palazzo a Mare:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palazzo_a_Mare
https://www.italytraveller.com/en/e/imperial-capri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palazzo_a_Mare
https://www.italytraveller.com/en/e/imperial-capri
Thanks!
What was the utility of such extreme indulgence? Did the process of attaining these social positions select for greed? Was there some social proof evinced by these acts that garnered prestige? Maybe there was no utility, and this behavior was simply incidental?
The poor person (whether cultured or uncultured) can't throw sumptuously lavish dinner parties. The pervenitus (Trimalchio, Monsieur Jourdain, James Gatz[0]) can, but usually manages to avoid throwing tastefully lavish dinner parties.
Finally, dinner parties are rivalrous goods: just like you can't dance at two weddings, you can't really attend two dinner parties the same[1] evening (although Trimalchio's guests discuss approaches), making them an excellent way for hosts to keep score. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40010481
[0] who, tbf, did have ulterior motives for his. Kitschy as it may be, I prefer the plot of Миллион алых роз to the Daisy/Jay dynamic, however: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Roses
Does Majnun ever throw any parties as cover for approaching Layla?
[1] beware of faerie dinner parties: a single evening there may be decades in real time
Finally, dinner parties are rivalrous goods: just like you can't dance at two weddings, you can't really attend two dinner parties the same[1] evening (although Trimalchio's guests discuss approaches), making them an excellent way for hosts to keep score. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40010481
[0] who, tbf, did have ulterior motives for his. Kitschy as it may be, I prefer the plot of Миллион алых роз to the Daisy/Jay dynamic, however: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Roses
Does Majnun ever throw any parties as cover for approaching Layla?
[1] beware of faerie dinner parties: a single evening there may be decades in real time
Networking, showcasing power, indebting your guests with your grace. It was common throughout history, as it is today.
Honestly, if you are ruling a literal empire, throwing an extravagant dinner party seems like a relatively benign use of power?
Like, of course a bunch of them were bored and did even more degenerate stuff, but most of it just seems plain political convenience? In modern times, if you have guests worth several billion over you don’t expect to impress them with a fancy pudding either.
Like, of course a bunch of them were bored and did even more degenerate stuff, but most of it just seems plain political convenience? In modern times, if you have guests worth several billion over you don’t expect to impress them with a fancy pudding either.
lmao, as if people from the past are any different from people today. Utility? People just like to have a good time. Hosts like to throw a good party, sometimes a wild one, they indulge. Simple as.
>Did the process of attaining these social positions select for greed
Fucking lmao. Idk man...but if I had a lot of money, I'd probably also allocate a bit extra to the party planning committee, because big parties are fun.
It's just fun. I'm not sure there's any bestial, Darwinian, or Machiavellian machinery at play. Those are all modern impositions. It's just good fun.
>Did the process of attaining these social positions select for greed
Fucking lmao. Idk man...but if I had a lot of money, I'd probably also allocate a bit extra to the party planning committee, because big parties are fun.
It's just fun. I'm not sure there's any bestial, Darwinian, or Machiavellian machinery at play. Those are all modern impositions. It's just good fun.
Trimalcho is a former slave who, "like Ganymede," came to Rome from its Asian province. He is now extravagantly rich and famous for his wild parties. One night, he hosts a banquet, and the protagonists of the Satyricon -- a couple of adventuring knaves -- somehow manage to obtain invites.
First, appetizers were served on silver and golden plates. Then there were:
- A bronze-and-silver donkey bearing baskets filled with olives (green on one side, black on the other).
- A tray with a display of the twelve zodiac signs, each holding a dish representing a specific month.
- A giant platter of dormice (!) sprinkled with honey and poppy seeds. (Considered a great delicacy!)
- A wild boar stuffed with live thrushes, which flew out when the boar was carved open. (!!)
- A course featuring seafood, including an aquarium-like dish that mimicked the sea with shells and fish.
All the while, there were wild entertainments and interesting conversations. No wonder the article mentions that people would pay huge sums to attend the best banquets! (Trimalcho was supposedly based on a real person known as Nasidienus, also famous for his parties.)
The Satyricon is such a great book.