Free time, curiosity and playfulness has led to young orcas bumping boats(newatlas.com)
newatlas.com
Free time, curiosity and playfulness has led to young orcas bumping boats
https://newatlas.com/biology/orcas-killer-whales-boats/
84 comments
I'm not that worried about this. It's pretty hard to kill an orca, and whoever decides to be a vigilante about this won't invest in some kind of custom orca-killing solution, they'll just use what they have on hand. And everyone has guns.
I suspect shooting the orcas with a handgun or small rifle round would have a deterrent effect, but probably not kill them. They're smart and social, so maybe "word" would spread quickly that this activity isn't so fun anymore.
I suspect shooting the orcas with a handgun or small rifle round would have a deterrent effect, but probably not kill them. They're smart and social, so maybe "word" would spread quickly that this activity isn't so fun anymore.
> they'll just use what they have on hand. And everyone has guns.
That is exactly what I am worried about. I consider that to be pretty bad situation for the orca. One which they have no way to anticipate. And as you say that is the “simplest” solution so that is the most likely one to be employed if someone becomes aggitated.
> … but probably not kill them
That part I don’t know about. I suspect getting shot is pretty dangerous. There is some chance of it killing the orca within minutes (if it hits their brain or a major blood vessel), but i agre that the probability of that is low. Then there is the chance of it slowly killing the orca (either because the wound gets infected or because it interferes with their hunting/feeding such that the animal starves to death.)
All around I would like to very much avoid this outcome.
That is exactly what I am worried about. I consider that to be pretty bad situation for the orca. One which they have no way to anticipate. And as you say that is the “simplest” solution so that is the most likely one to be employed if someone becomes aggitated.
> … but probably not kill them
That part I don’t know about. I suspect getting shot is pretty dangerous. There is some chance of it killing the orca within minutes (if it hits their brain or a major blood vessel), but i agre that the probability of that is low. Then there is the chance of it slowly killing the orca (either because the wound gets infected or because it interferes with their hunting/feeding such that the animal starves to death.)
All around I would like to very much avoid this outcome.
While shooting orcas would obviously …not be a good outcome, might it put your mind at ease to know that there may be many reasons to think the comment you replied to might be correct?
- Bullets don't really work underwater. High-powered rounds get shredded on impact, and low-power rounds get slowed to non-lethal speeds. The bang might scare them though. [1]
- Guns are designed for humans, and whales are big. Just the blubber under their skin adds several inches. [2] The physics of avoiding heat loss further implies that more important organs and blood vessels should have proportionally more blubber over them. With enough armor, penetration isn't really "low probability" but more "physically not possible". [3]
- Vital orca organs seem to be, surprise, well-protected. Their abdominal/thoracic cavity looks like a small volume inside a very large body, with particularly a lot of space on their back. The brain is not only protected by lots of blubber but also thick bone. [4] Based on this diagram, only the melon and eyes really look vulnerable.
- Orcas take care of disabled orcas! [5] If a wound interferes with hunting/feeding, then someone stays back to keep them company/protect them until the rest of the pod can bring them food or call them over to eat. It might suck, but they shouldn't starve. Apparently they do this even for strangers from different pods too? If an orca still starves to death because nobody will do that for them, then I guess they were probably a bit of an asshole…
So guns won't even work on water. Then even if it hits them directly it probably won't/physically can't hurt them. They're protected by water, blubber, size, and thick bone plate, any one of which on its own would be enough to stop most bullets. And even if they do get seriously wounded they have support networks that won't let them starve.
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1: https://mythresults.com/episode34
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca#Characteristics
3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_depth
4: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Orca_internal_anatom...
5: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=orcas%20caring%20for%2...
---
> All around I would like to very much avoid this outcome.
Cash in on hysteria by selling denatonium benzoate bath bombs. Win-win.
- Bullets don't really work underwater. High-powered rounds get shredded on impact, and low-power rounds get slowed to non-lethal speeds. The bang might scare them though. [1]
- Guns are designed for humans, and whales are big. Just the blubber under their skin adds several inches. [2] The physics of avoiding heat loss further implies that more important organs and blood vessels should have proportionally more blubber over them. With enough armor, penetration isn't really "low probability" but more "physically not possible". [3]
- Vital orca organs seem to be, surprise, well-protected. Their abdominal/thoracic cavity looks like a small volume inside a very large body, with particularly a lot of space on their back. The brain is not only protected by lots of blubber but also thick bone. [4] Based on this diagram, only the melon and eyes really look vulnerable.
- Orcas take care of disabled orcas! [5] If a wound interferes with hunting/feeding, then someone stays back to keep them company/protect them until the rest of the pod can bring them food or call them over to eat. It might suck, but they shouldn't starve. Apparently they do this even for strangers from different pods too? If an orca still starves to death because nobody will do that for them, then I guess they were probably a bit of an asshole…
So guns won't even work on water. Then even if it hits them directly it probably won't/physically can't hurt them. They're protected by water, blubber, size, and thick bone plate, any one of which on its own would be enough to stop most bullets. And even if they do get seriously wounded they have support networks that won't let them starve.
---
1: https://mythresults.com/episode34
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca#Characteristics
3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_depth
4: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Orca_internal_anatom...
5: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=orcas%20caring%20for%2...
---
> All around I would like to very much avoid this outcome.
Cash in on hysteria by selling denatonium benzoate bath bombs. Win-win.
> might it put your mind at ease to know that there may be many reasons to think the comment you replied to might be correct?
Yes. Thank you very much. :) All very interesting and very good points. Thank you for the detailed answer.
Yes. Thank you very much. :) All very interesting and very good points. Thank you for the detailed answer.
> You could try to spritz them with a water bottle but I suspect they wouldn't notice. Same with the rolled up newspaper trick. It would just dissolve in the water.
Simply adapt your boats to be foul-tasting, like a normal species. Spritz them with capsaicin, denatonium benzoate, skunk secretions, etc.
Simply adapt your boats to be foul-tasting, like a normal species. Spritz them with capsaicin, denatonium benzoate, skunk secretions, etc.
I'm all for spritzing millionaire yachts with skunk secretions!
> You could try to spritz them with a water bottle but I suspect they wouldn't notice.
One of my cats responds well to the water bottle; mostly I just have to pick it up, I don't even have to spritz it, and I certainly don't have to actually squirt her. The other cat though, could care less, if I get him anywhere other than the face, he just is like 'oh, being naughty did make me thirsty, thanks for the drink'
One of my cats responds well to the water bottle; mostly I just have to pick it up, I don't even have to spritz it, and I certainly don't have to actually squirt her. The other cat though, could care less, if I get him anywhere other than the face, he just is like 'oh, being naughty did make me thirsty, thanks for the drink'
Them cat reacts because you have sprayed them at least once with it and it associated negative emotions to that action. It’s not like cats and orcas see a water bottle at birth and immediately know what it is and what will happen if it’s used against them. That is an entirely learned behavior from what you have done to them in the past with it. You can attach negative and positive associations with most items if you consistently do something.
The OP’s point is that spraying them will do nothing because they are literally in a giant pool of water already. A spritz is literally not going to affect them at all. They probably wouldn’t even notice it happening nor be able to associate an emotion to it.
The OP’s point is that spraying them will do nothing because they are literally in a giant pool of water already. A spritz is literally not going to affect them at all. They probably wouldn’t even notice it happening nor be able to associate an emotion to it.
> point is that spraying them will do nothing because they are literally in a giant pool of water already
Yeah. I mean obviously the water bottle and the rolled up newspaper examples were jokes. But I believe it would be much better for them if we could find their killer whale equivalent. Without that our options are "doing nothing, hoping they stop harassing boats", and "terminate them with extreme prejudice".
We don't shoot Fido in the head on the first infraction. (At least most people agree on that with some exceptions [1]) But that is largely because we have better options.
1: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/26/trump-kristi-n...
Yeah. I mean obviously the water bottle and the rolled up newspaper examples were jokes. But I believe it would be much better for them if we could find their killer whale equivalent. Without that our options are "doing nothing, hoping they stop harassing boats", and "terminate them with extreme prejudice".
We don't shoot Fido in the head on the first infraction. (At least most people agree on that with some exceptions [1]) But that is largely because we have better options.
1: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/26/trump-kristi-n...
I agree with this content, but the way you put it you might actually encourage people wanting to hurt then to do it already.
You can try something similar to the newspaper trick. Electric shocks come to mind. People could rent a Killer-Whale-Taser® before setting sail Another alternative could be something they perceive as foul taste/smell
You can try something similar to the newspaper trick. Electric shocks come to mind. People could rent a Killer-Whale-Taser® before setting sail Another alternative could be something they perceive as foul taste/smell
> the way you put it you might actually encourage people wanting to hurt then to do it already
I don’t think people are waiting for my permission, but if they are: don’t hurt the orcas.
> Electric shocks come to mind. … Another alternative could be something they perceive as foul taste/smell.
Yeah those are options. I was also thinking about sudden noise, like a waterproof firecracker.
The problem with all of these is that without testing it is at best a guess how effective they will be. Imagine you set the taser to the lowest setting and you trigger it and the whole pod of whales just die. Oops they are more sensitive to electric shocks we thought. Or you dump a bucket of capcaisin on them, and they just… don’t care? Without carefull calibration and tests it is easy to fail in either direction, and either hurting the whales too much or not doing enough for them to notice.
I don’t think people are waiting for my permission, but if they are: don’t hurt the orcas.
> Electric shocks come to mind. … Another alternative could be something they perceive as foul taste/smell.
Yeah those are options. I was also thinking about sudden noise, like a waterproof firecracker.
The problem with all of these is that without testing it is at best a guess how effective they will be. Imagine you set the taser to the lowest setting and you trigger it and the whole pod of whales just die. Oops they are more sensitive to electric shocks we thought. Or you dump a bucket of capcaisin on them, and they just… don’t care? Without carefull calibration and tests it is easy to fail in either direction, and either hurting the whales too much or not doing enough for them to notice.
> the way you put it you might actually encourage people wanting to hurt then to do it already
I don’t think people are waiting for my permission, but if they are: don’t hurt the orcas.
> Electric shocks come to mind. … Another alternative could be something they perceive as foul taste/smell.
Yeah those are options. I was also thinking about sudden noise, like a waterproof firecracker.
The problem with all of these is that without testing it is at best a guess how effective they will be. Imagine you set the taser to the lowest setting and you trigger it and the whole pod of whales just die. Oops they are more sensitive to electric shocks we thought. Or you dump a bucket of capcaisin on them, and they just… don’t care? So you can imagine many level/dosage
I don’t think people are waiting for my permission, but if they are: don’t hurt the orcas.
> Electric shocks come to mind. … Another alternative could be something they perceive as foul taste/smell.
Yeah those are options. I was also thinking about sudden noise, like a waterproof firecracker.
The problem with all of these is that without testing it is at best a guess how effective they will be. Imagine you set the taser to the lowest setting and you trigger it and the whole pod of whales just die. Oops they are more sensitive to electric shocks we thought. Or you dump a bucket of capcaisin on them, and they just… don’t care? So you can imagine many level/dosage
We could send out this Kiwi orca body slammer haha https://www.outdoorlife.com/conservation/video-body-slam-orc...
We could probably redirect it with positive reinforcement training.
Give them something they really like (like tasty food) when they come close to the boat but not actually bumping it. With repetition, they’ll figure out it’s better to not hit the boats.
Give them something they really like (like tasty food) when they come close to the boat but not actually bumping it. With repetition, they’ll figure out it’s better to not hit the boats.
Not exactly new behavior!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTK01HhyOGA
Historically orcas usually didn't mess with boats or even assisted whalers in hunts.
I wonder if this was a cultural memory of the orcas about sailors (whalers at least) retaliating quite fiercely in the few instances they were being messed with and that's fading away now.
I wonder if this was a cultural memory of the orcas about sailors (whalers at least) retaliating quite fiercely in the few instances they were being messed with and that's fading away now.
Historically it was the opposite: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/killer-whales-work-wit... - the whalers worked with the orcas and gave them some of the catch. Cooperation, not competition.
Maybe. They're very smart animals, though, I don't think it would take much positive reinforcement to become engrained behavior.
> it's not their anticapitalist 'eat the rich' agenda
This seems epistemologically quite dubious. How would we know?
This seems epistemologically quite dubious. How would we know?
The clicks on the speech of the Orca's great prime minister Mr Alfredo Breamtits were misunderstood. What he said was: "eat the rich in fatty acids". Is a common problem when AI translates Killerwhalish.
We gave some dolphins a few fish and they told us.
Sounds like we need to subjugate these orcas to capitalist alienation
You don't need any great conspiracy theory about sentient animals plotting to reclaim the seas from humanity - from what I read, modern engine-powered ships cause a lot of noise pollution which directly affects marine animals like whales.
So I'm somewhat surprised they don't try to attack the things that all the annoying noise is coming from.
So I'm somewhat surprised they don't try to attack the things that all the annoying noise is coming from.
This would make sense if the Orcas hadn't been repeatedly recorded attacking sailing yachts, which make no noise at all since they're sailing :)
Also, even when sailing yachts use their engine, it's not exactly a big and powerful noisy engine like a tanker or cruise liner. Yet, we have seen more videos of orcas attacking 10 person or smaller sailing yachts than bigger, noisier ships.
Also, even when sailing yachts use their engine, it's not exactly a big and powerful noisy engine like a tanker or cruise liner. Yet, we have seen more videos of orcas attacking 10 person or smaller sailing yachts than bigger, noisier ships.
I mean that's not happening, so it seems like we still need the conspiracy theory.
> The report reveals that a combination of free time, curiosity and natural playfulness has led to young orcas adopting this 'trend' of boat-bumping..
> Most of the 15 were male juveniles and teens..suggesting that what started as playful head-bumping on boat rudders has escalated as the animals have grown larger..And no orca over the age of 25 – when males are fully grown – has been seen participating in the tomfoolery.
> The animals are known to be sensitive to trends.. Perhaps most famously, in 1987, a female orca in the Pacific Ocean near Puget Sound was observed carrying a dead salmon on her head; within two months, killer whales from her pod and two others were also wearing 'fish hats.' But it was all a fad.
> Most of the 15 were male juveniles and teens..suggesting that what started as playful head-bumping on boat rudders has escalated as the animals have grown larger..And no orca over the age of 25 – when males are fully grown – has been seen participating in the tomfoolery.
> The animals are known to be sensitive to trends.. Perhaps most famously, in 1987, a female orca in the Pacific Ocean near Puget Sound was observed carrying a dead salmon on her head; within two months, killer whales from her pod and two others were also wearing 'fish hats.' But it was all a fad.
I believe orcas can live as long as humans. So there's a bunch of middle-aged orcas out there who sometimes go:
"Remember when we all wore fish hats after Jeannie got one? Man, that was crazy... Do you think a dead salmon would look good on me still?"
"Remember when we all wore fish hats after Jeannie got one? Man, that was crazy... Do you think a dead salmon would look good on me still?"
The important thing was that I had a salmon on my head, which was the style at the time. They didn't have any pink salmons, because of the humans. The only thing you could get was those decaying yellow ones...
It's funny - I hung on to my dead trout, which is basically the same thing. These things go in cycles!
We can't bust rudders like we used to. But we have our ways.
Idle fins are the devil's workshop!
Do the go after the sail boats or is it just motorboats.
The propellers are quite loud under the water, I wonder if they are maybe annoyed by the noise and learnt attacking those vessels makes the noise go away
The propellers are quite loud under the water, I wonder if they are maybe annoyed by the noise and learnt attacking those vessels makes the noise go away
Among the sailing cruisers, it's become clear this is not a factor. Sailing vessels have been attacked with their propellors on brake, with their props disengaged or with props running.
In general, marine mammals don't mind the sound of engines (even though I do!) We have had pods of dolphins swimming along and playing around our boat in all configurations. I once turned off the engine when the dolphins came around, and they left immediately, presumable because we lost too much speed to be interesting? That genuinely surprised me, as I like sailing for the quiet.
In general, marine mammals don't mind the sound of engines (even though I do!) We have had pods of dolphins swimming along and playing around our boat in all configurations. I once turned off the engine when the dolphins came around, and they left immediately, presumable because we lost too much speed to be interesting? That genuinely surprised me, as I like sailing for the quiet.
That’s quite funny. We think of nature as a separate space, away from the hustle and bustle of everyday life, where solitude and quiet can be enjoyed.
To the dolphins, I guess your boat was probably like their equivalent of an amusement park or something, haha. Novel, exciting, loud, and artificial.
To the dolphins, I guess your boat was probably like their equivalent of an amusement park or something, haha. Novel, exciting, loud, and artificial.
Dolphins like to wake surf, so yeah, they left to go find another boat.
Being a sailor, I've been carefully paying attention to the Orca reports, they seem to like the modern sail boat fin rudders which have no skeg (vertical support attached to hull with hinged rudder behind) and is pretty easy to knock off the boat with little damage to the Orca. I heard about a boat with a skeg-hung rudder that stopped dead in the water in that area, but was able to continue on with a working rudder. When hauled out later, the hinge mount of the rudder had been twisted quite a bit off the skeg, so that Orca got a headache, and decided to move on.
I wonder if any boats with a traditional long keel have been affected? I'd expect that arrangement to be even less attractive to an orca given there's no gap between the rudder and keel.
I haven't heard of any Orca success with either skeg-hung or long keel boats. A big "new" development in sailboat design is dropping the skeg on rudders for better sailing performance and lower cost even on blue-water sail boats. And also going with twin fin rudders, so more targets on a single boat for Orca's to play with. So faster and cheaper but far less safe.
Would have been my immediate assumption as well. Wonder if they asked that question at all
Why wouldn’t the older ones do that, and only the males?
I recently learned that blue light is 50% stronger in interfering with melatonin generation in toddlers versus adults. I’m a lot more sensitive to noise than my father is and my daughter is even more sensitive, she’ll start screaming when people are too loud.
Not saying that is the reason, but your question is addressing something quite common in different scenarios.
Not saying that is the reason, but your question is addressing something quite common in different scenarios.
The answer is apparent if in the nature-vs-nurture girls-vs-boys discussion you keep a healthy inclination towards nature.
Genuinely I read it as a little cross-species 'boys will be boys' at work.
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>But, sadly, it's not their anticapitalist 'eat the rich' agenda
> Following years of research, a team of biologists, government officials and marine industry representatives have released their findings
Nevertheless, the "rich" quickly mobilized with a full on multi-year research team alongside government officials, with decent funding to fix the problem. Out of all the current global and local problems, can't have expensive yachts damaged.
> Following years of research, a team of biologists, government officials and marine industry representatives have released their findings
Nevertheless, the "rich" quickly mobilized with a full on multi-year research team alongside government officials, with decent funding to fix the problem. Out of all the current global and local problems, can't have expensive yachts damaged.
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It’s a public safety issue. Do you also realize that the working class get out on boats to fish and partake in leisure activities?
I am just going by what the article says:
> For four years now, orcas have been ramming and sinking luxury yachts in European waters, and scientists have struggled to work out just why these smart
Where are all these plumbers and teachers with luxury yachts going out on leisure activities?
And article authors were the first one to bring in the "rich" joke with the "it's not their anticapitalist 'eat the rich' agenda" phrase so I just went by that, and thought it was funny that it as has nothing to do with that at all, but the proceeded to describe a multi-year research and study effort to eliminate the problem. There was something a bit ironic there.
> For four years now, orcas have been ramming and sinking luxury yachts in European waters, and scientists have struggled to work out just why these smart
Where are all these plumbers and teachers with luxury yachts going out on leisure activities?
And article authors were the first one to bring in the "rich" joke with the "it's not their anticapitalist 'eat the rich' agenda" phrase so I just went by that, and thought it was funny that it as has nothing to do with that at all, but the proceeded to describe a multi-year research and study effort to eliminate the problem. There was something a bit ironic there.
I personally know some of the people who were attacked by these orcas, and had to be towed to madeira as a result.
These "luxury yatches" are small, second and third hand vessels bought for less than your car is worth after a life of hard work.
It's a bit ridiculous to call people in the same socioeconomic strata as the average public school teacher as "the rich"
These "luxury yatches" are small, second and third hand vessels bought for less than your car is worth after a life of hard work.
It's a bit ridiculous to call people in the same socioeconomic strata as the average public school teacher as "the rich"
Fair enough. Well, maybe we should notify the article authors pointing out it affects not just the "luxury yachts".
TLDR; its the orca equivalent of the latest tiktok trend.
A few days ago, onion published a list of interviews with orcas. Only a few of them were motivated by TicTok.
The pod challenge?
Whale booping and sidehugs. Beware when they start planking.
I'm not sure what I was expecting but the orca equivalent of lol tiktok wasn't it.
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>> "In an ideal world, there would be a simple strategy for mariners to follow when killer whales interact, which would avoid vessel damage and harm to the whales. Unfortunately, there appears to be no such panacea," the authors of the study wrote.
No. There is an easy answer. Stop sailing your toys through that bit of ocean. This is not an issue for commercial craft. This is about large sailboats, which are universally toys of the rich. Just call this part of the ocean a no-go area for a few years and the orca will forget about this game. If this was a population of eagles that was ripping apart ultralight aircraft, the FAA would slap a NOTAM on the area and that would be the end of the issue.
No. There is an easy answer. Stop sailing your toys through that bit of ocean. This is not an issue for commercial craft. This is about large sailboats, which are universally toys of the rich. Just call this part of the ocean a no-go area for a few years and the orca will forget about this game. If this was a population of eagles that was ripping apart ultralight aircraft, the FAA would slap a NOTAM on the area and that would be the end of the issue.
Only bald eagles
Maybe because sonar is annoying as hell for cetaceans and makes their ears bleed?
You could try to spritz them with a water bottle but I suspect they wouldn't notice. Same with the rolled up newspaper trick. It would just dissolve in the water.
I'm very worried about these orcas ever since I heard about them. It is probably fun for them what they are doing but the longer they are at it the more likely is that some vigilante decides to stop them. And given the lack of good soft options that lesson will be probably a violent one.
They don't even know how scary the bear is they are poking on the regular. Hope they will go bored of it before they get hurt.