Ultrasonic Coffee(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Ultrasonic Coffee
https://www.theguardian.com/food/article/2024/may/29/ultrasonic-coffee-australia-scientists-unsw
95 comments
Until James Hoffman (https://www.youtube.com/@jameshoffmann/videos) has done a video on it, it may as well not exist ;)
Interesting idea, always nice to see new ways to brew coffee. I wonder how easy it is to replicate their process? The article isn't hugely clear. It talks about using a modified off the shelf domestic espresso machine but the picture at the top looks like a custom built device with potential complex machining involved to build.
If it's the case you can buy an ultrasonic transducer and bodge it into an espresso machine lots of fun possibilities for coffee geeks (and to my point above someone like James Hoffman will give it a go and build up a bunch of interest in the technique)
If it's the case you need a bunch of complex machining and significant technical skills (say those possessed by chemical engineers conducting cutting edge research...) then I imagine this will struggle to go anywhere.
Interesting idea, always nice to see new ways to brew coffee. I wonder how easy it is to replicate their process? The article isn't hugely clear. It talks about using a modified off the shelf domestic espresso machine but the picture at the top looks like a custom built device with potential complex machining involved to build.
If it's the case you can buy an ultrasonic transducer and bodge it into an espresso machine lots of fun possibilities for coffee geeks (and to my point above someone like James Hoffman will give it a go and build up a bunch of interest in the technique)
If it's the case you need a bunch of complex machining and significant technical skills (say those possessed by chemical engineers conducting cutting edge research...) then I imagine this will struggle to go anywhere.
Well, here's "Not James Hoffman" having a go: https://youtu.be/-yB6Fb05QRo?si=PqhwiRsRnz39LOYJ
The article says they working to commercialise it. That will presumably involve selling a machine.
If they sell a reasonably priced machine (say, under US$400) which is easy to clean, doesn't use any sort of pod/cup, doesn't have any subscription malarkey, and is reasonably sized, I'll give it a very serious look.
The whole idea sounds like it could be really simple once implemented, and in a world of super complicated coffee brewers with small little crevices that are hard to clean, it'd be very welcome.
The whole idea sounds like it could be really simple once implemented, and in a world of super complicated coffee brewers with small little crevices that are hard to clean, it'd be very welcome.
That’s comically cheap. The gaggia classic, arguably king of the entry level espresso, is that same price. They could release it at $900 (MSRP of Rancilio Silvia) and easily sell a million if it’s worth it. I’d guess they could easily start at $1200-1500 and drop the price from there after the first couple of production runs.
I dunno... I can get a Moccamaster for that price, or another pretty darn good other drip maker for under $200.
If this just has to agitate the brewing area with ultrasound and not much else, there's no reason for it to cost a lot. Something like the Silvia you mention is just a lot more complicated.
If this just has to agitate the brewing area with ultrasound and not much else, there's no reason for it to cost a lot. Something like the Silvia you mention is just a lot more complicated.
Indeed but I still feel my original point stands. If you can achieve their process half reasonably with a bodged espresso machine there's a reasonable chance it will become popular (assuming of course it does provide unique coffee!). If it's complex precision engineering even if they're directly working on commercialisation it'll be a struggle.
I'll repeat my comment from the previous discussion, as ultrasound can be used to extract many things quickly:
Alternatively you could use a (quite affordable) ultrasonic machine designed for gentle cleaning of jewelry, dentures, glasses..
I've used one to extract fragrance from biological material for an artistic project[0], and it worked really well. Instead of having to wait for a few weeks for a tincture to finish, you put the same tincture (alcohol and material you want to extract fragrance from) into a plastic bag for just 15 minutes. Sure, it smells not quite the same, but the speed is often worth it. I've even heard about some guy trying to turn vodka into whiskey with an ultrasonic machine and wood chips.
There are quite a few ultrasonic machines on the market. I've tried EMAG and multiple Chinese no-name machines that are just as powerful but cheaper. Sadly the no-name machines are quite a bit louder - you can't stay in the same room while it's running basically. Still, they all work well for this kind of fast and dirty extraction.
[0] https://rybakov.com/blog/smelling_cz/ (second half of the page)
Alternatively you could use a (quite affordable) ultrasonic machine designed for gentle cleaning of jewelry, dentures, glasses..
I've used one to extract fragrance from biological material for an artistic project[0], and it worked really well. Instead of having to wait for a few weeks for a tincture to finish, you put the same tincture (alcohol and material you want to extract fragrance from) into a plastic bag for just 15 minutes. Sure, it smells not quite the same, but the speed is often worth it. I've even heard about some guy trying to turn vodka into whiskey with an ultrasonic machine and wood chips.
There are quite a few ultrasonic machines on the market. I've tried EMAG and multiple Chinese no-name machines that are just as powerful but cheaper. Sadly the no-name machines are quite a bit louder - you can't stay in the same room while it's running basically. Still, they all work well for this kind of fast and dirty extraction.
[0] https://rybakov.com/blog/smelling_cz/ (second half of the page)
A long while back, I looked into how viable ultrasonic acceleration of the “aging” of Dit Da Jow (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dit_da_jow) would be and had come across a paper looking into it the same.
If I remember correctly, while ultrasonic treatment did a decent job of quickly extracting the various chemicals from their carriers, there were some caveats. The ratio of chemicals extracted could differ from normal, and it only did a partial job of accelerating the formation of very complex secondary compounds that form when the whole mix is properly aged.
So the difference in smell you found could be some chemicals being preferentially released over others, and/or the lack the secondary chemicals.
If I remember correctly, while ultrasonic treatment did a decent job of quickly extracting the various chemicals from their carriers, there were some caveats. The ratio of chemicals extracted could differ from normal, and it only did a partial job of accelerating the formation of very complex secondary compounds that form when the whole mix is properly aged.
So the difference in smell you found could be some chemicals being preferentially released over others, and/or the lack the secondary chemicals.
Indeed, it is after all more of a mechanical extraction than a chemical one. I remember seeing tiny bits of grass floating in the tincture after extracting the scent of fresh grass - the cavitation bubbles practically shattered the cell structure of the plant, and a dusty green soup was floating around the blades of grass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlQT4ptwLKs might be interesting - it's been a while since I watched it, but IIRC this video covers a variety of ultrasonic infusion experiments. According to the autogenerated timeline in search results, it includes coffee as well.
>But unlike an espresso, it’s not bitter or harsh.
Speak for yourselves, the espresso I make is neither inherently bitter or harsh. It depends entirely on the recipe.
Speak for yourselves, the espresso I make is neither inherently bitter or harsh. It depends entirely on the recipe.
Typical Italian espresso relies on Robusta blends, so some bitterness is unavoidable in this case.
100% Arabica based coffee can be more palatable, depending on grinder quality, espresso machine, right grind size and some other factors.
Recently Red Bourbon is the variety that appeals to me most.
100% Arabica based coffee can be more palatable, depending on grinder quality, espresso machine, right grind size and some other factors.
Recently Red Bourbon is the variety that appeals to me most.
If you don't mind sharing, what's your recipe / trick?
In my experience, mostly just buying nice beans and not doing anything stupid with them.
The hangover from Italian style coffee is quite strong and means we get a lot of over-roasted beans (or at least, cheap beans over-roasted to disguise the quality. This style was a necessity when Italians imported low grade beans from their own colonies in the 19th and early 20thC, but if buying single origin beans lighter roasts are (imo) just much more interesting and less bitter/harsh.
Not GP, but my recipe is simply cold brew (I'm in the 1 part coffee grinds to 8 parts water, in a metal pot, 24 hours in the fridge camp).
Not at all bitter or harsh. And I like my coffee cold rather than hot, though you can obviously heat it if you want it hot.
(Bonus: I'm lazy, and though the filtering stage is a little more effort, it's concentrated, and then I have instant good coffee for a week or two).
Not at all bitter or harsh. And I like my coffee cold rather than hot, though you can obviously heat it if you want it hot.
(Bonus: I'm lazy, and though the filtering stage is a little more effort, it's concentrated, and then I have instant good coffee for a week or two).
It's not really a trick, you need good quality coffee (lighter roasts are going to inherently end up less bitter and more acidic but realistically you can normally get something balanced from any roast level), a high quality grinder (too much grind inconsistency will make it difficult to get a reliable extraction, one time you might get a coffee that tastes good and the next it takes half the time to extract and tastes awful as a result), a good machine which doesn't go above 9 bars of pressure, and a lot of patience/experience.
As a general rule, the lighter you go the harder it is to extract the coffee. The more expensive the equipment will need to be. To make good espresso from light roasts you can benefit from a machine which can handle flow profiling as the puck is so unstable at lower roasts that consistency becomes very difficult.
So you pick a medium roast, a good quality grinder (although even in the expensive range, different types and subtypes of burr will produce different results) and a quality machine which can hold a stable temperature.
Next, it's important to keep it all consistent, weigh the coffee, weigh the output. Things like WDT[0] can help get an even distribution of coffee in the portafilter, although recently people have started looking at shaking the coffee grounds as a better option, although there's some limited research on this. To go the extra mile, RDT[1] can help increase grind consistency, and so can freezing the coffee beans (although usually you want to single dose the coffee to avoid condensation on your frozen beans slowly causing the moisture content to increase). I also use paper filters below and above the puck, as well as a mesh filter on top of the paper filter, this helps distribute water, prevent clogging, and improve reliability (it's honestly quite a surprisingly noticeable difference).
Now for dialling in: You pull a shot, you taste it, as a general rule of thumb if it tastes empty and sour you should pull a longer shot (higher output weight), if it tastes bitter and/or salty then you should pull a shorter shot (lower output weight). Once your flavors are balanced you can adjust the grind to increase or reduce the overall concentration to your taste.
For medium roast I normally aim for 1:2.5 ratio (15g of ground coffee in, 37.5g of liquid coffee out) and adjust from there. The timing is a complex topic which depends highly on what you're trying to do, turbo shots naturally run very fast, blooming shots naturally run very long. You should try to get the machine to run between 20 and 35 seconds but if it tastes better if you go longer/shorter then don't blindly stick to this.
It's difficult to get good espresso reliably, and especially so when you are doing it at home and don't have a day's worth of customers to offset the cost of a wasted few shots. But it's possible. You also have to start over every time you get new coffee beans.
For reference, my setup is a Gaggia classic modded with flow profiling (gagguino mod) with a niche zero conical burr grinder. I live far enough away from London that Brita filtering the water produces good quality results, but some people may want to distill and re-mineralise water using a recipe for maximum consistency.
[0]: https://www.baristahustle.com/weiss-distribution-technique/ [1]: https://www.beanground.com/ross-droplet-technique/
As a general rule, the lighter you go the harder it is to extract the coffee. The more expensive the equipment will need to be. To make good espresso from light roasts you can benefit from a machine which can handle flow profiling as the puck is so unstable at lower roasts that consistency becomes very difficult.
So you pick a medium roast, a good quality grinder (although even in the expensive range, different types and subtypes of burr will produce different results) and a quality machine which can hold a stable temperature.
Next, it's important to keep it all consistent, weigh the coffee, weigh the output. Things like WDT[0] can help get an even distribution of coffee in the portafilter, although recently people have started looking at shaking the coffee grounds as a better option, although there's some limited research on this. To go the extra mile, RDT[1] can help increase grind consistency, and so can freezing the coffee beans (although usually you want to single dose the coffee to avoid condensation on your frozen beans slowly causing the moisture content to increase). I also use paper filters below and above the puck, as well as a mesh filter on top of the paper filter, this helps distribute water, prevent clogging, and improve reliability (it's honestly quite a surprisingly noticeable difference).
Now for dialling in: You pull a shot, you taste it, as a general rule of thumb if it tastes empty and sour you should pull a longer shot (higher output weight), if it tastes bitter and/or salty then you should pull a shorter shot (lower output weight). Once your flavors are balanced you can adjust the grind to increase or reduce the overall concentration to your taste.
For medium roast I normally aim for 1:2.5 ratio (15g of ground coffee in, 37.5g of liquid coffee out) and adjust from there. The timing is a complex topic which depends highly on what you're trying to do, turbo shots naturally run very fast, blooming shots naturally run very long. You should try to get the machine to run between 20 and 35 seconds but if it tastes better if you go longer/shorter then don't blindly stick to this.
It's difficult to get good espresso reliably, and especially so when you are doing it at home and don't have a day's worth of customers to offset the cost of a wasted few shots. But it's possible. You also have to start over every time you get new coffee beans.
For reference, my setup is a Gaggia classic modded with flow profiling (gagguino mod) with a niche zero conical burr grinder. I live far enough away from London that Brita filtering the water produces good quality results, but some people may want to distill and re-mineralise water using a recipe for maximum consistency.
[0]: https://www.baristahustle.com/weiss-distribution-technique/ [1]: https://www.beanground.com/ross-droplet-technique/
To get a better taste I lower my standards a bit to the level of my equipment
This is my solution. I already drink way too much coffee (aka rocket fuel), if I would make it _tasty_, I'd certainly develop issues.
I switched over to tea (plain, no sugar) because I am less disappointed by mediocre tea than I am mediocre coffee.
Several times a week I use one of those stainless steel conical fine mesh filters to make a single cup of coffee. Pouring boiling water over the stainless mesh filter (into the sink), to preheat it, before adding the ground coffee beans radically improves the flavor of the coffee.
Several times a week I use one of those stainless steel conical fine mesh filters to make a single cup of coffee. Pouring boiling water over the stainless mesh filter (into the sink), to preheat it, before adding the ground coffee beans radically improves the flavor of the coffee.
I heard if you use immersion type method like the Hario switch it is very forgiving and consistent even if you screwup grind size and temperature. Vs percolation (flow) v60 you have to deal with a lot more issues such as time/flow rate, channeling etc.
This was a nice overview, and I basically concur.
I want to add a few things.
Once you know your grinder, too high a max pressure is not so much of a problem, as choking a shot becomes a rare issue.
Consistently good Espresso is easier using a slightly coarse ground, but something needs to give, like texture or concentration.
Taken together, cheap machines can work well, although learning on them can be frustrating.
Use fresh roasts, and use them up quickly. Some days after opening a bag of not single dose frozen beans , many coffees lose their good aroma, and only the roast itself remains.
I want to add a few things.
Once you know your grinder, too high a max pressure is not so much of a problem, as choking a shot becomes a rare issue.
Consistently good Espresso is easier using a slightly coarse ground, but something needs to give, like texture or concentration.
Taken together, cheap machines can work well, although learning on them can be frustrating.
Use fresh roasts, and use them up quickly. Some days after opening a bag of not single dose frozen beans , many coffees lose their good aroma, and only the roast itself remains.
Good advice, but honestly given how complicated puck prep can be I'd suggest people struggling just go for turbo shots directly (coarse grinds, 1:2/1:2.5 ratio in 15 seconds or less, 6 bar if you can control it). It's much more repeatable which makes it easier to dial in by taste, and will get you much closer to reliably good espresso.
As an Italian, if it manages to break into our market, it means that it's good stuff. Yes, we are still very strict to our food related traditions and coffee is definitely one of them
As a Swede, I've never been so deprived of good coffee as when I was in Italy. So heavily "roasted" (more like burnt or torched) that no taste except maybe tar or char is left. Served either in ant sized cups or with milk to mask the horrendous taste.
No, the Nordic way of light (or medium) roasted coffee prepared in a drip brewer is the only way.
If this breaks into Italy, I will make sure to stay away from it ;-).
No, the Nordic way of light (or medium) roasted coffee prepared in a drip brewer is the only way.
If this breaks into Italy, I will make sure to stay away from it ;-).
As a Brit dating an Italian, I couldn't agree more. I like to enjoy my coffee, not just drink it for the effects. I will never understand the tiny intense espresso + double sugar combo as a way to finish every meal. I get palpatations just thinking about it.
That being said, I'm really enjoying weak watery coffee these days. Its sweeter, you taste the aroma more, and it's a nice slow high in the morning that teases you gently into a focused work mindset, instead of tense grinning-neurotic mess I used to be. Also, I can sleep better at night.
That being said, I'm really enjoying weak watery coffee these days. Its sweeter, you taste the aroma more, and it's a nice slow high in the morning that teases you gently into a focused work mindset, instead of tense grinning-neurotic mess I used to be. Also, I can sleep better at night.
Fun fact: there’s less caffeine in espresso than in filter coffee. [1]
[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=etnMr8oUSDo
[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=etnMr8oUSDo
I thought espresso is something you order in quantity of 2 or 4, to be mixed into the regular coffee so it works. That's what I always do.
For me espresso is the best coffee. I didn't like coffee before I tasted espresso on my first trip to Italy 15 years ago.
Nowadays most of our offices in Poland have espresso machines, so I can taste it here also.
What is funny is that when I was in our main office in US, they didn't have espresso machine, just some strange "coffee machine" that poured some coffee-like liquid.
I also don't get the big buckets of coffee premade and poured to the mugs in some traditional American diners.
In Poland the traditional way to prepare coffee is called "turkish style" (po turecku) - you put one or two spoons of ground coffee in glass or mug and pour hot water over it. I don't like that too much, but it tastes better than the US made version of coffee.
Nowadays most of our offices in Poland have espresso machines, so I can taste it here also.
What is funny is that when I was in our main office in US, they didn't have espresso machine, just some strange "coffee machine" that poured some coffee-like liquid.
I also don't get the big buckets of coffee premade and poured to the mugs in some traditional American diners.
In Poland the traditional way to prepare coffee is called "turkish style" (po turecku) - you put one or two spoons of ground coffee in glass or mug and pour hot water over it. I don't like that too much, but it tastes better than the US made version of coffee.
I hate having to clean the crud from the mugs of my Polish in-laws. I have a perfectly fine French press!
The audacity! Sure you have nice trains and welfare system, but claiming superiority over Italian coffee culture? I would prefer an espresso made on an Italian gas station at 2AM to a fancy Swedish roastery any time.
Neither Swedish nor Italian, but I completely agree. It took me a long time to realise I don't actually like espresso. There is this perception that espresso is "better" than other coffee. I guess it's the shiny machines, the weird noises they make and the fact that most people can't make it at home. I always thought that home methods like cafetière, drip/filter etc. were like poor imitations of the real deal.
I've recently learnt that most Starbucks have filter coffee as an off-menu item. It's still Starbucks but it's so much better than their "Americano". Unfortunately many will refuse to make it for you (presumably because it's more effort).
It's not that espresso can't be good, but for most places this is the cheap, low effort, coffee-on-demand. And in most of southern Europe (Italy, France, Spain) the taste seems to be for burnt coffee that all tastes the same.
Also, it really annoys me that if you order two drinks (like a café con leche in Spain) they'll split a double shot into two cups with one getting clearly more coffee than the other. It's a 50% chance you're going to get the weak brown milk.
I've recently learnt that most Starbucks have filter coffee as an off-menu item. It's still Starbucks but it's so much better than their "Americano". Unfortunately many will refuse to make it for you (presumably because it's more effort).
It's not that espresso can't be good, but for most places this is the cheap, low effort, coffee-on-demand. And in most of southern Europe (Italy, France, Spain) the taste seems to be for burnt coffee that all tastes the same.
Also, it really annoys me that if you order two drinks (like a café con leche in Spain) they'll split a double shot into two cups with one getting clearly more coffee than the other. It's a 50% chance you're going to get the weak brown milk.
> And in most of southern Europe (Italy, France, Spain) the taste seems to be for burnt coffee that all tastes the same.
Disclaimer: I'm a Spaniard.
Most cafes in Spain serve a particularly noxious form of burnt coffee called "torrefacto" [0], which is made by mixing sugar with the beans while they are being excessively roasted. This introduces additional bitterness and ash to what would have already been overly roasted beans.
For a country where coffee is often consumed multiple times a day, and where there are cafes in every corner, Spain has disappointingly terrible coffee.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrefacto
Disclaimer: I'm a Spaniard.
Most cafes in Spain serve a particularly noxious form of burnt coffee called "torrefacto" [0], which is made by mixing sugar with the beans while they are being excessively roasted. This introduces additional bitterness and ash to what would have already been overly roasted beans.
For a country where coffee is often consumed multiple times a day, and where there are cafes in every corner, Spain has disappointingly terrible coffee.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrefacto
Well, it's a post war reminiscence that thankfully is decreasing and has less presence in the market every day.
It made sense back in the day, in that postwar economy, as the sugar roasting process reduced its price and lengthened its shelf life. Mixing or even substituting in completely with chicory (depending on your wealth, or lack of it) was very common, and some old people still do it nowadays.
But still tastes burnt, so of course people do lots of sugar and milk on their coffee :p.
BTW, it's OK if any of you don't like coffee, or like it sugary, with milk, powdered, or in any coffee based drink that you like. I might be snobby with my coffee, but you can drink wathever do like. And in summer I always fancy a cold coffee with tigernut horchata (popular around Valencia, different from the Mexican one that's made with rice).
It made sense back in the day, in that postwar economy, as the sugar roasting process reduced its price and lengthened its shelf life. Mixing or even substituting in completely with chicory (depending on your wealth, or lack of it) was very common, and some old people still do it nowadays.
But still tastes burnt, so of course people do lots of sugar and milk on their coffee :p.
BTW, it's OK if any of you don't like coffee, or like it sugary, with milk, powdered, or in any coffee based drink that you like. I might be snobby with my coffee, but you can drink wathever do like. And in summer I always fancy a cold coffee with tigernut horchata (popular around Valencia, different from the Mexican one that's made with rice).
> I might be snobby with my coffee, but you can drink whatever you like.
Sure, I agree. My disappointment with torrefacto is just a personal opinion.
For example, I think chicory is great, and so is barley (mugicha). I would very much rather drink those instead of torrefacto.
Sure, I agree. My disappointment with torrefacto is just a personal opinion.
For example, I think chicory is great, and so is barley (mugicha). I would very much rather drink those instead of torrefacto.
Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding, wasn't pointing at you, but just saying it aloud for everyone. Mugicha is great by the way, and now you say it, I forgot that I had some bags! Thanks!
Maybe that explains an experience I had when I was at Kubecon in Valencia a few years ago. The free coffee was some of the worst coffee I've ever had. It was filtered coffee, so not even very strong, but very bitter and tasted deeply burned. It was hard to drink, and every attendee seemed to agree. The huge line at a Nespresso counter was also pretty good proof of the general feeling about the coffee.
I'd rather have the brownish water they called coffee in the US office any day.
I'd rather have the brownish water they called coffee in the US office any day.
I was around there! In caterings is even worse, they're using that burnt coffee in huge unmaintained drippers making something very similar to airplane coffee. It's weird to have that burn-but-wattery coffee. You can for sure find better coffee in Valencia with no effort.
Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that all coffee in Valencia is bad, not at all. I had a chance to visit the city and found some really good coffee too. It was just enlightening to understand why that particular coffee tasted so bad.
> I've recently learnt that most Starbucks have filter coffee as an off-menu item
And it’s faster to order, too! At least at the Starbucks’ I’ve been to, the barista/cashier will usually turn around and pour it immediately. Other drinks (even iced/cold brew) go into the queue.
And it’s faster to order, too! At least at the Starbucks’ I’ve been to, the barista/cashier will usually turn around and pour it immediately. Other drinks (even iced/cold brew) go into the queue.
Let me guess: you’re from Stockholm? Because you’re certainly not from my end of Sweden; until I moved here I’ve never tasted such a heavily roasted coffee as skånerost.
I also found that people in Uppsala drink comically dark, over-concentrated coffee. However, there is a fantastic little shop there selling some excellent (if very expensive) beans; if I remember the name I'll post it.
Could it be ... Uppsala kafferosteri [1]? But they seem to specialize in just that, dark roasts, so perhaps not.
[1]: https://uppsalakafferosteri.se/
[1]: https://uppsalakafferosteri.se/
It is Arrenius & Company.
I find swedish coffee horrible! Italian coffee and espresso all the way, for the win!
But the worst coffee, has to be the brown colored bland fluid called coffee in the US!
But the worst coffee, has to be the brown colored bland fluid called coffee in the US!
The US is a large place. Espresso in the US has likely had some of the most innovation in the world over the last 20 years. If you didn't find excellent coffee in the US then you were either in the middle of nowhere, or you didn't try.
Similar with Sweden. Stockholm has many excellent coffee shops. Maybe you need to put more effort in.
Similar with Sweden. Stockholm has many excellent coffee shops. Maybe you need to put more effort in.
[deleted]
I never appreciated coffee before I lived in Australia.
The consistently excellent quality of coffee one got from any local cafe in Melbourne and Sydney was by far the highest I've seen anywhere in the world. Including Italy.
The only Starbucks I ever saw there was at the cruise ship terminal in Sydney.
I then moved to London and it was a very sad affair with coffee, I missed a good cup so much. Tho over the years they got more and more cafes that cared and had actually comparable coffee.
The consistently excellent quality of coffee one got from any local cafe in Melbourne and Sydney was by far the highest I've seen anywhere in the world. Including Italy.
The only Starbucks I ever saw there was at the cruise ship terminal in Sydney.
I then moved to London and it was a very sad affair with coffee, I missed a good cup so much. Tho over the years they got more and more cafes that cared and had actually comparable coffee.
London has good coffee, as well as NYC where I currently live. You just need to look for us Aussies behind the espresso machines :) Kiwis will do too.
NYC has not great coffee culture (everyones on their laptops) despite some cafes serving okay coffee like Devocion perhaps among others. The Balkans where I am from has completely turned on the third wave coffee and combined with the coffee culture its amazing. People have 2-3 coffees a day just chilling under the sun. NYC should be ashamed. London is much better
NYC doesn't have the time or space for the kind of coffee culture you're talking about, but the coffee itself is as good as anywhere else — not Devocion though, that's pretty bad IMHO. SEY is where you wanna go, or Black Fox or maybe Saltwater if you're in Manhattan.
Definitely has the space, and can make the time but does not want to. It takes immense selfhatred to work that much to please your boss instead of enjoying your coffee with a friend. I will note down your recs though. Everyman espresso and La Cabra are also good. Here in the Balkans in the specialty cafes which are handful, I can actually choose between which beans I want to wnjoy, maybe competition coffee from 1600 meters from Peru, maybe Mexico 1300 meters, maybe Ethiopia or Tanzania, even Indian competition coffee that won the cup #2. I have never seen anything similar in NYC, not even close. The baristas dont even know how many grams they put in the portafilter. Its sad.
Yeah I like La Cabra but it's become a bit of a TikTok spot. The last time I walked past the SoHo location there was a line 50 ft out the door.
Agreed it's a shame people here are so proud of the "hustle" culture. Brooklyn is a bit better — I think you would really like SEY :)
Agreed it's a shame people here are so proud of the "hustle" culture. Brooklyn is a bit better — I think you would really like SEY :)
I would try to go to SEY, its a bit far but that could be a perk. I liked the cafes in LA and Miami they were far more laidback
> coffee is definitely one of them
Italians will say this, then put a moka pot on the stove for five minutes until it's boiled through, and serve you the blackest, most burnt tar imaginable - stuff that could qualify as road building material - and then turn around and insult American food tastes whilst they've skipped two meals in favor of cigarettes and the lowest quality wine. But that's okay, because they have some expensive olive oil in a ceramic bottle for the last two years.
And you can't even accuse them of not having travelled enough, because half their young people are working across Europe, so they would know that there is better food out there in other countries - but they're doing that wine and cigarette diet so they remain ignorant and arrogant. They - you - are as bad as French people, but the rest of the world haven't discovered it yet.
Italians will say this, then put a moka pot on the stove for five minutes until it's boiled through, and serve you the blackest, most burnt tar imaginable - stuff that could qualify as road building material - and then turn around and insult American food tastes whilst they've skipped two meals in favor of cigarettes and the lowest quality wine. But that's okay, because they have some expensive olive oil in a ceramic bottle for the last two years.
And you can't even accuse them of not having travelled enough, because half their young people are working across Europe, so they would know that there is better food out there in other countries - but they're doing that wine and cigarette diet so they remain ignorant and arrogant. They - you - are as bad as French people, but the rest of the world haven't discovered it yet.
This is a bit over the top and stereotypes/over-generalises...
Italian food is genuinely good, but is now, in my opinion, also too beholden to traditions and tribalism (food must be prepared in this way and you are wrong otherwise), and I perceive a relative lack of openness to different cuisines compared to some other countries.
Italian coffee is built on dark roasts of non-specialty (and often even Robusta) beans, which works well with milk-based drinks like cappuccinos but can also work well for espresso and moka brews too. Despite having a preference for lighter roasts I still enjoyed the coffee on my trip to Rome last year, and actually I would easily choose it over the big brand chains like Starbucks.
What I find Italy is missing is the so-called 'third-wave', where light and medium roasts are preferred and higher quality (think specialty or single-origin, typically always Arabica) beans are typically used. I believe that this is partly due to the fact that espresso prices are regulated in many parts of Italy to be as low as €1-1.50 and so the business model just doesn't work unless the beans are cheap too.
Italian food is genuinely good, but is now, in my opinion, also too beholden to traditions and tribalism (food must be prepared in this way and you are wrong otherwise), and I perceive a relative lack of openness to different cuisines compared to some other countries.
Italian coffee is built on dark roasts of non-specialty (and often even Robusta) beans, which works well with milk-based drinks like cappuccinos but can also work well for espresso and moka brews too. Despite having a preference for lighter roasts I still enjoyed the coffee on my trip to Rome last year, and actually I would easily choose it over the big brand chains like Starbucks.
What I find Italy is missing is the so-called 'third-wave', where light and medium roasts are preferred and higher quality (think specialty or single-origin, typically always Arabica) beans are typically used. I believe that this is partly due to the fact that espresso prices are regulated in many parts of Italy to be as low as €1-1.50 and so the business model just doesn't work unless the beans are cheap too.
I spent some years in Italy and can't agree. Their cheapest wines poured straight from the tap are still great compared to just about everything else.
I would prefer having a coffee and a cigarette for lunch basking under the sun in Italy over eating hot pockets in a cubicle because I need a car to drive 30 mins to the nearest plaza that vaguely resembles a living breathing human settlement
In terms of tobacco use, Italy is on par with the US, slightly lower than Sweden.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_tobacco_use
It's also one of the world's top per capita consumers (and producer) of olive oil, so the chance of any given meal having old rancid olive oil in them is probably lower, rancidity being a function of throughout.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_oil
Also, and I suppose that is subjective, Bialetti coffee can be delicious.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_tobacco_use
It's also one of the world's top per capita consumers (and producer) of olive oil, so the chance of any given meal having old rancid olive oil in them is probably lower, rancidity being a function of throughout.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_oil
Also, and I suppose that is subjective, Bialetti coffee can be delicious.
And yet Italian diabetes rates (and life expectancy) are higher than the US.
> Yes, we are still very strict to our food related traditions
Italian here. To those replying, this is the key takeaway. I think the poster means it'll take something insanely good for us to consider upending tradition. Not because we have the gold standard, but because we are so unbelievably stubborn and pig-headed :)
Italian here. To those replying, this is the key takeaway. I think the poster means it'll take something insanely good for us to consider upending tradition. Not because we have the gold standard, but because we are so unbelievably stubborn and pig-headed :)
I have to agree with other posters Italian coffee is not very good (probably second worst I've experienced in Europe), and since you didn't addopt all the good new coffee stuff from the last ~30 years, I don't understand why would you addopt this.
Again, not saying we have good coffee. Our coffee is horrific. With that being said, the smell of coffee being torched in a Moka pot makes me nostalgic. While I recognise the taste is absolutely sub-standard compared to a single-origin brew carefully prepared, I still enjoy it. This falls in the category of: "people are allowed to like bad things."
I just tried this with a mug of coffee in an ultrasonic cleaner. Left it running for about 5 minutes with room temp water and ground coffee in the mug.
Compared afterwards to a mug left outside the ultrasonic cleaner. There was definitely more extraction in the ultrasonic cleaner, though the coffee was still fairly weak. Likely needs more time given that they are using a custom horn etc.
Compared afterwards to a mug left outside the ultrasonic cleaner. There was definitely more extraction in the ultrasonic cleaner, though the coffee was still fairly weak. Likely needs more time given that they are using a custom horn etc.
Thanks for the test.
They also use 100W of ultrasonic power: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135041772... and a cursory search says this is the domain of more expensive ultrasonic cleaners (> 100$).
They also use 100W of ultrasonic power: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135041772... and a cursory search says this is the domain of more expensive ultrasonic cleaners (> 100$).
Supposedly ultrasonic cleaners use 15-400 khz, and DML audio exciter drivers go to 17-20 khz, so you could theoretically grab a few of those for under $100 and have at it with a sine generator.
The transducers are fairly cheap from China [0]. I've thought about making a high powered bath before but never pulled the trigger.
0: https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-ultrasound-transducer...
0: https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-ultrasound-transducer...
Ah right, yeah those would be perfect.
True, the one I have was a China special, but does say 60W.
I would imagine there needs to be direct coupling between the transducer and the container holding the coffee, the water layer likely doesn't transfer nearly as much.
Probably best to just get a stainless cup, glue the transducer(s) to it and let it rip.
Probably best to just get a stainless cup, glue the transducer(s) to it and let it rip.
Water is incredibly efficient at transmitting sound.
Doesn't mean the cup is any good at absorbing it.
The mug will attenuate almost all the signal. Maybe try with a disposable plastic cup?
I'll try it another day, the cleaner is packed away now.
Perhaps a ziplock bag would work well.
Perhaps a ziplock bag would work well.
Wondering, is the resulting coffee thick because a certain amount of the grounds are pulverized enough to pass the filter? Would be interesting to centrifuge some and see if that's the case. Anyway, might not actually be an issue, given people's tolerance for odd coffee.
(Don't think about elephants!)
(Don't think about elephants!)
> Will it be sold, marketed, drunk and understood under a new name, as Trujillo suggests: Sonicated coffee? Sonespresso? Ultrasonic espresso?
I'd go with Sonicoffee ...
I'd go with Sonicoffee ...
By the sound of the ultrasonic cleaner my coworker used to have, I would name it Coffeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I wonder if an avantgarde Penderecki coffee would taste sharper compared to let's say Mozart type:)
Good. Great to learn that hot water/steam can be substituted by ultrasound in some particularly important general-use processes. Making note of this, it looks like another building block on the quest to build the real-world equivalent of Star Trek's food replicator.
I would buy this. Sell me one please.
There's a little history of trying to get a new coffee method named: Clover comes to mind, a vertical extraction, high pressure, fine-filter plunge method that's like a powered Aeropress. The founder made it to be a kind of new price point offering between drip and espresso drinks. Starbucks ultimately bought Clover, and seems mostly to have shut it down, which is too bad - it was a nice product for third wave coffee shops to offer, and it's only rolled out now at high end Starbucks.
It is worth the wait, although maybe not the cost - it seems to exist to sell $10 "Blue Mountain" coffee at Starbucks now.
Anyway, I would guess this would sell more as an enthusiast home product than something that can fit in to existing coffee shops; the Clover story I think is that something new can be appealing, but it's probably not worth the counter space at indies; unless it can replace the espresso machine completely, e.g. as a mode in your existing espresso machine, it's not going to go into what is usually very crowded production space.
There's a little history of trying to get a new coffee method named: Clover comes to mind, a vertical extraction, high pressure, fine-filter plunge method that's like a powered Aeropress. The founder made it to be a kind of new price point offering between drip and espresso drinks. Starbucks ultimately bought Clover, and seems mostly to have shut it down, which is too bad - it was a nice product for third wave coffee shops to offer, and it's only rolled out now at high end Starbucks.
It is worth the wait, although maybe not the cost - it seems to exist to sell $10 "Blue Mountain" coffee at Starbucks now.
Anyway, I would guess this would sell more as an enthusiast home product than something that can fit in to existing coffee shops; the Clover story I think is that something new can be appealing, but it's probably not worth the counter space at indies; unless it can replace the espresso machine completely, e.g. as a mode in your existing espresso machine, it's not going to go into what is usually very crowded production space.
>Starbucks ultimately bought Clover, and seems mostly to have shut it down
They more or less killed the original model, but they're pushing to deploy the new 'Vertica' model so that drip coffee is brewed on-demand rather than by batch. Ostensibly to reduce waste.
The output from Vertica machines is definitely subpar compared to the original, however.
They more or less killed the original model, but they're pushing to deploy the new 'Vertica' model so that drip coffee is brewed on-demand rather than by batch. Ostensibly to reduce waste.
The output from Vertica machines is definitely subpar compared to the original, however.
Interesting! I note that the single illustration on the Vertica page shows a narrower machine. It makes sense they decided the thing to do is replace the drip machine with a higher-value product machine, and leave espresso alone.
[deleted]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40284823
Cold brew coffee in 3 minutes using acoustic cavitation (unsw.edu.au)
2024-05-07 (351 comments)