Rabbit failed to properly reset keys: emails can be sent from rabbit.tech domain(rabbitu.de)
rabbitu.de
Rabbit failed to properly reset keys: emails can be sent from rabbit.tech domain
https://rabbitu.de/articles/security-disclosure-2
92 comments
To me, glasses seem like a very interesting form factor, perhaps with a smart watch or wristband for better hand gesture recognition.
You can wear them all the time, even if your hands are busy, it won't look weird, they're the perfect place for a microphone and a camera, and the frames are just in the right spot for delivering sound to your ears via bone conduction.
Input is probably going to be the biggest hurdle, just like it was with touch screens, especially in situations where using your voice isn't acceptable.
I think Google had the right idea with Google Glass, but they were far too early, just like IBM had exactly the right idea with Simon[1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Simon
You can wear them all the time, even if your hands are busy, it won't look weird, they're the perfect place for a microphone and a camera, and the frames are just in the right spot for delivering sound to your ears via bone conduction.
Input is probably going to be the biggest hurdle, just like it was with touch screens, especially in situations where using your voice isn't acceptable.
I think Google had the right idea with Google Glass, but they were far too early, just like IBM had exactly the right idea with Simon[1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Simon
Apple Vision Pro is unbelievably good at figuring out what you’re looking at, seamlessly adjusting for eye saccades and a host of other weird things our bodies do. I imagine the tech will eventually get shrunk down.
I think the question is: what’s hardest of the following:
* Knowing what you’re looking or pointing at
* Getting you private audio
* Getting you public video
* Getting you private video
And we’ll get hardware constraints based on that list. It seems to me like private video is hardest in hardware without glasses, but public video might be harder in terms of capex - e.g. we need different materials in our spaces, or a lot of projectors, or … Anyway fun to speculate about all this.
I think the question is: what’s hardest of the following:
* Knowing what you’re looking or pointing at
* Getting you private audio
* Getting you public video
* Getting you private video
And we’ll get hardware constraints based on that list. It seems to me like private video is hardest in hardware without glasses, but public video might be harder in terms of capex - e.g. we need different materials in our spaces, or a lot of projectors, or … Anyway fun to speculate about all this.
Private-ish audio is solved with bone conduction, see the new Meta Rayban Glasses or the Bose Frames for example.
There's more leakage than you get with normal headphones, it's not something you could use in a church, library or cinema without annoying people, but it's private enough for most use cases.
There's more leakage than you get with normal headphones, it's not something you could use in a church, library or cinema without annoying people, but it's private enough for most use cases.
Re Humane Ai Pin - did you never receive it because you cancelled your order? Or did you never onboard? There's a bit of an unusual process with ordering the Ai Pin where it won't ship until you "onboard" i.e. set up your account/service with Humane
What’s the goal of this? Front loading a frustrating web based setup, so the out of box experience can be smooth and seem magical? Is that the goal? Kind of like how Amazon can pre-register a Kindle with a user’s account if they select it while ordering.
You’d think this would be part of the order process instead of a completely separate and detached step.
You’d think this would be part of the order process instead of a completely separate and detached step.
I never onboarded. I should hunt through my emails though is what this makes me think of.
Aside from something bad like this security hole, I can't understand the hate, it's pretty obvious the R1 was a fun novelty, a gimmick.
Anyone with a basic understanding of tech, would understand you're not going to get Apple level breakthrough engineering from a start-up and at that price point.
I feel this got swept up in the wave of hatred for the Humane AI Pin (again very obvious what it'd be). Humane's biggest fault was that they marketed it as being at Apple level quality, an impossible goal they set for themselves.
Reminds me of Magic Leap.
Anyone with a basic understanding of tech, would understand you're not going to get Apple level breakthrough engineering from a start-up and at that price point.
I feel this got swept up in the wave of hatred for the Humane AI Pin (again very obvious what it'd be). Humane's biggest fault was that they marketed it as being at Apple level quality, an impossible goal they set for themselves.
Reminds me of Magic Leap.
I think the hate directed their way has more to do with the outsized claims of the founder, Jesse Lyu. For example, he claimed that you're buying a device with a "LAM" but it turned out to be playwright scripts wrapping APIs + OpenAI APIs, and the underlying action model was missing (or very nascent at ship). The team also took a lot of shortcuts security-wise and is getting wrecked for it now (it's not just one hole):
https://x.com/xyz3va/status/1805689140639408277
https://x.com/xyz3va/status/1805985433156759781 (this is the OP)
https://x.com/xyz3va/status/1805993239368860069
Doesn't help that he was shilling crypto right before rabbit. What people love about the form factor has mostly to do with Teenage Engineering's quirky design. Somehow Jesse is a board member there, it seems.
In general I don't recommend trusting their software. If you like the hardware, you can flash AOSP and use google assistant -- it's way more capable and AOSP isn't harvesting your credentials. https://github.com/RabbitHoleEscapeR1/r1_escape
https://x.com/xyz3va/status/1805689140639408277
https://x.com/xyz3va/status/1805985433156759781 (this is the OP)
https://x.com/xyz3va/status/1805993239368860069
Doesn't help that he was shilling crypto right before rabbit. What people love about the form factor has mostly to do with Teenage Engineering's quirky design. Somehow Jesse is a board member there, it seems.
In general I don't recommend trusting their software. If you like the hardware, you can flash AOSP and use google assistant -- it's way more capable and AOSP isn't harvesting your credentials. https://github.com/RabbitHoleEscapeR1/r1_escape
Coffeezilla did a nice piece on this, piecing together some of the crypto threads. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLvFc_24vSM
This is the reason; the product is imbued with the negative externalities of the people and ideas associated with it.
Well and the realities of bad security, bad usability with touchscreen typically disabled, crappy battery life ^^'
[deleted]
[deleted]
>Somehow Jesse is a board member there, it seems.
With my eternal love/hate relationship with Teenage Engineering (cheap enough music gadgets vs overpriced metal folding table and OP1 price inflation) I'm almost excited to find more reasons to stop giving the company any more brain time / money ever again.
With my eternal love/hate relationship with Teenage Engineering (cheap enough music gadgets vs overpriced metal folding table and OP1 price inflation) I'm almost excited to find more reasons to stop giving the company any more brain time / money ever again.
> I can't understand the hate, it's pretty obvious the R1 was a fun novelty, a gimmick.
I get pretty annoyed when people lie to me to sell me something even if it's obvious they're lying.
Even moreso if I want to try the thing they've actually built and want people experimenting with this stuff. If I didn't care I could just ignore it.
But if I do care and also I know their main claims are deceitful it means I have to waste energy wondering if the claims that aren't obvious nonsense are also deceitful.
On top of this they managed to make major news rounds with their bogus presentation. This means my family who don't usually consume tech news, and for whom none of it was obvious nonsense, got super hyped about it and I had to tell them no, this is just tech people lying to you.
We SHOULD encourage hacking on form factor, novelty gimmick devices or not. Lying and misrepresenting when doing so is the opposite of that, it makes it harder for the next folks to want to give it a go.
I get pretty annoyed when people lie to me to sell me something even if it's obvious they're lying.
Even moreso if I want to try the thing they've actually built and want people experimenting with this stuff. If I didn't care I could just ignore it.
But if I do care and also I know their main claims are deceitful it means I have to waste energy wondering if the claims that aren't obvious nonsense are also deceitful.
On top of this they managed to make major news rounds with their bogus presentation. This means my family who don't usually consume tech news, and for whom none of it was obvious nonsense, got super hyped about it and I had to tell them no, this is just tech people lying to you.
We SHOULD encourage hacking on form factor, novelty gimmick devices or not. Lying and misrepresenting when doing so is the opposite of that, it makes it harder for the next folks to want to give it a go.
>I get pretty annoyed when people lie to me to sell me something even if it's obvious they're lying.
Exactly. When companies put out half-baked products to try to ride a hype wave, they're betting on idea that their customers are idiots with the same low standards. Companies need to hold themselves accountable and have enough respect for themselves and for customers to not inflict crap onto the world.
Exactly. When companies put out half-baked products to try to ride a hype wave, they're betting on idea that their customers are idiots with the same low standards. Companies need to hold themselves accountable and have enough respect for themselves and for customers to not inflict crap onto the world.
> I can't understand the hate
I think it's because of the promises of the team (new Large Action Model) vs what's actually being delivered (the model is some scripts). The team has a history of over promising and underdelivering (or scamming - depending on your perspective). It's also economically unviable. Somehow you're meant to get free LLM calls for life but there's no way for them to actually cover those. There's not really any communication about how it might be a limited time thing for early adopters or how it could ever get to be sustainable.
If they had focused on what they have, they probably could have charged the same amount and people would generally be OK with it. But they've over promised and under delivered again. I think the reaction is pretty understandable.
I think it's because of the promises of the team (new Large Action Model) vs what's actually being delivered (the model is some scripts). The team has a history of over promising and underdelivering (or scamming - depending on your perspective). It's also economically unviable. Somehow you're meant to get free LLM calls for life but there's no way for them to actually cover those. There's not really any communication about how it might be a limited time thing for early adopters or how it could ever get to be sustainable.
If they had focused on what they have, they probably could have charged the same amount and people would generally be OK with it. But they've over promised and under delivered again. I think the reaction is pretty understandable.
> The team has a history of over promising and underdelivering (or scamming - depending on your perspective).
Their attitude of not communicating anything and basically inventing stuff the R1 can do without actually having the engineering to back it up is what is "scamming" to me. Over-promising and under-delivering is one thing, but lying about what something can do and then going back to the engineering team to "just make it happen" is what I am reading between the lines here.
Their attitude of not communicating anything and basically inventing stuff the R1 can do without actually having the engineering to back it up is what is "scamming" to me. Over-promising and under-delivering is one thing, but lying about what something can do and then going back to the engineering team to "just make it happen" is what I am reading between the lines here.
> it's pretty obvious
...to you. Someone who lurks hacker news.
Given what my some of the people I work with think AI is, I can't even imagine how bad it is out there.
...to you. Someone who lurks hacker news.
Given what my some of the people I work with think AI is, I can't even imagine how bad it is out there.
I speculate the hate comes from the people invested in smart phones as they are today. Magic leap didn't get mainstream hate like the rabbit did afaict
Sure it did. They promised something completely made up and at launch it looked to be about 1/10th of what they were saying it would be like. The Rabbit did the same by promising one thing and shipping another.
I think Humane seemed the more honest out of all of them with what actually shipped, but should have probably sold it at $200 instead of the price of a higher-end phone.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/8/17662040/magic-leap-one-cr...
I think Humane seemed the more honest out of all of them with what actually shipped, but should have probably sold it at $200 instead of the price of a higher-end phone.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/8/17662040/magic-leap-one-cr...
You're thinking people don't want a startrek communicator (if it worked)? Do you have any evidence of that?
I just think they were too harsh in their judgement toward experimental and boundary pushing tech, treating it like it should be as polished as smartphones. Same people would applaud iPhone{n} for some incremental step forward even at a high price point
Because the magic leap was an innovative new product for early adopters.
The Rabbit promised to be a smartphone-killer, when all it was was a shitty android phone that only runs one app.
I think people are mad about being scammed, not out of having an unsuccessful product.
The Rabbit promised to be a smartphone-killer, when all it was was a shitty android phone that only runs one app.
I think people are mad about being scammed, not out of having an unsuccessful product.
[deleted]
> I think it's clear that a phone isn't the final state for these interactions
That isn't clear to me at all, although continuing to experiment is worthwhile.
"Battery powered computer which fits in a pocket, having a screen/speakers/radio/microphone/camera/vibrator" is a hard form factor to beat. There's a lot of room to improve the specifics of how they work, but I would bet on something recognizably similar being in widespread use hundreds of years from now, provided that industrial civilization continues.
Voice-driven ambient computing will probably become more prominent than it is now, but that doesn't cover anything visual, so a device which can provide images on command will stay relevant. For something like a map, audio can only provide an inferior experience, and maps are one of the non-negotiable uses of a personal device, and likely to remain so.
That isn't clear to me at all, although continuing to experiment is worthwhile.
"Battery powered computer which fits in a pocket, having a screen/speakers/radio/microphone/camera/vibrator" is a hard form factor to beat. There's a lot of room to improve the specifics of how they work, but I would bet on something recognizably similar being in widespread use hundreds of years from now, provided that industrial civilization continues.
Voice-driven ambient computing will probably become more prominent than it is now, but that doesn't cover anything visual, so a device which can provide images on command will stay relevant. For something like a map, audio can only provide an inferior experience, and maps are one of the non-negotiable uses of a personal device, and likely to remain so.
I think watch or earbud are still the only acceptable wearable form factor. Add pinhole cameras so it's aware of its surroundings and you could have a very useful assistant that keeps up with what you're doing in realtime.
Banks and others imagine terminals as earrings, with (presumably) beam forming audio in a ‘mid tech’ scenario. How visuals get shown varies, from “holograms created by magic” to “smart walls”. We seem to be pretty close, like a year or two out, from high quality spatially aware “show the human information right here in this room” — I’d bet that a small model could do a great job at picking a place to show info right now, but we don’t really have ‘smart’ environments yet in general.
We are working on something very different. To be honest, i got mad when i saw the rabbit released. It was clear it's just a gadget & a grifter product. And i hate, that we spend much more time on really creating something and now will be much later than the grifters who rushed something.
But then i guess, they are smarter. We are running out of money (bootstrapped) & don't have a working product yet to pitch to investors. But i'd rather fail than releasing a half-assed product to make a quick-buck and lie about it constantly.
I just don't know where to find potential investors to talk to, who are up for a high risk consumer hard- & software, early stage, in europe... If anyone got some tips, they'd be greatly appreciated. Not much time left before we're dead & i think it's better to die close to a prototype than close to a potential funding.
But as i said, i'd love any tips.
But then i guess, they are smarter. We are running out of money (bootstrapped) & don't have a working product yet to pitch to investors. But i'd rather fail than releasing a half-assed product to make a quick-buck and lie about it constantly.
I just don't know where to find potential investors to talk to, who are up for a high risk consumer hard- & software, early stage, in europe... If anyone got some tips, they'd be greatly appreciated. Not much time left before we're dead & i think it's better to die close to a prototype than close to a potential funding.
But as i said, i'd love any tips.
Maybe some more (contact) information would be helpful? It is not quite clear what you are doing but it sounds interesting. If you fold, please open source, however I don’t think you have to (there is money in Europe but it depends what you need).
I honestly don't understand pretending that there was any value in this project. The founders have a history of grifting, and the product itself betrays the advertising and the software itself appears held together with shoestrings and bubblegum.
As the founders beg for a buyout even as the product has completely failed, it can't be any more clear that this was a get-rich-quick scheme by the founders, and never a serious venture.
"Experimenting with form factors" is a cop-out for what they actually did.
As the founders beg for a buyout even as the product has completely failed, it can't be any more clear that this was a get-rich-quick scheme by the founders, and never a serious venture.
"Experimenting with form factors" is a cop-out for what they actually did.
Never heard of this. So I went to the website to find out what it is. "Your pocket companion" the top of the website reads. Ok, don't know what that means. Scroll down "push to talk button", "conversational interface", and some other hardware features. Still no idea what it's for. They have a keynote video. I press play. It starts with them showing a bunch of press coverage and social media. Still no description of what it is. Not even a demo of what it does. I got several minutes into the video and it's all acting like I already know what it is. I've completely lost interest. Mystifyingly bad marketing.
It's an awful piece of trash. A phone-ish sized device that's sole purpose is to act as an interface to AI.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddTV12hErTc is a review by Marques Brownlee, covering how bad it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLvFc_24vSM Coffezilla goes in to the ways that it's arguably a scam, as well as diving in to some of how it is badly implemented.
On the technical side, it gets worse. For example, it turns out things like their Spotify "integration" is actually interacting with the Spotify web site. It doesn't even use Spotify's APIs. So it breaks any time Spotify modifies their website.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddTV12hErTc is a review by Marques Brownlee, covering how bad it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLvFc_24vSM Coffezilla goes in to the ways that it's arguably a scam, as well as diving in to some of how it is badly implemented.
On the technical side, it gets worse. For example, it turns out things like their Spotify "integration" is actually interacting with the Spotify web site. It doesn't even use Spotify's APIs. So it breaks any time Spotify modifies their website.
Yes; at the same time, it’s a scam only because people didn’t like it. If it got popular, it would have been a successful hustle and a new business model.
Advertising a product with features that it doesn't have remains a scam in my book, no matter the popularity.
See also: Theranos
See also: Theranos
Chatgpt, a product that successfully disrupted the market and inspired a number of other companies, is largely misunderstood and falsely advertised.
A HN submission about chatgpt hallucinating broken links to partner websites has comments like:
> It drives me nuts how OpenAI has misleadingly marketed their products, and the tech community at large has failed to clarify what their products really are.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40821262
A HN submission about chatgpt hallucinating broken links to partner websites has comments like:
> It drives me nuts how OpenAI has misleadingly marketed their products, and the tech community at large has failed to clarify what their products really are.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40821262
Coffeezilla's covered[0] some of their... aspects.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLvFc_24vSM (video)
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLvFc_24vSM (video)
i'm with you, but 'product discovery via security announcement' is a risky business.
Sad thing is people support and enrich shitty conmen like this but hate to pay an opensource dev/tool/lib.
Note that Android is a mostly open source and overwhelmingly more profitable indirect competitor.
Rabbit itself is a wrapped android app [1].
[1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/05/rabbit-r1-ai-box-is-...
Rabbit itself is a wrapped android app [1].
[1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/05/rabbit-r1-ai-box-is-...
The hardware is good and the vision is compelling. It’s also only $200. I think it’s far too early to call it a con.
The vision is compelling?
Isn’t the vision just “ai agent + playwright logged into all your accounts”? And it can’t be an app on your phone because no app store would allow that?
Isn’t the vision just “ai agent + playwright logged into all your accounts”? And it can’t be an app on your phone because no app store would allow that?
The hardware is far from good. I have one and got real intimate with it. The battery life is ass and holding everything back (e.g. maybe why they disable touchscreen for a lot of things?). The mediatek chip inside is really cheap and bad. There's no edge compute, so it's clear that they want it to be an interface to cloud services, but really begs the question "then why not just use your phone."
The vision is just what everyone is working on -- connecting LLMs to tools. Wake me up when it can do half of what Google Assistant can already do for me. I'll add that Google Assistant is free, and fast.
The vision is just what everyone is working on -- connecting LLMs to tools. Wake me up when it can do half of what Google Assistant can already do for me. I'll add that Google Assistant is free, and fast.
I don’t know about the battery life as mine hasn’t been useful enough yet to last. The hardware look and feel is pretty cute and nice, and for $200 I’m not expecting edge compute. The vision though is more than connecting llms to tools, it’s a hardware-centric one that includes query-specific UI flows and integrations into popular 3rd parties (and theoretically tappy tap all your android apps in the cloud).
It’s becoming more common now but that doesn’t mean it’s not worthwhile.
It’s becoming more common now but that doesn’t mean it’s not worthwhile.
> I don’t know about the battery life as mine hasn’t been useful enough yet to last
Mine doesn't even last as a glorified spotify controller mostly chilling in idle.
> for $200 I’m not expecting edge compute
What _are_ you expecting then? The hardware doesn't let you replace your phone and it isn't more convenient either. Pixel phones respond to "OK Google" faster than you can press this thing's button.
Mine doesn't even last as a glorified spotify controller mostly chilling in idle.
> for $200 I’m not expecting edge compute
What _are_ you expecting then? The hardware doesn't let you replace your phone and it isn't more convenient either. Pixel phones respond to "OK Google" faster than you can press this thing's button.
I’m hoping for an alternative to a phone that I can avoid getting sucked in, can be left around to be used by multiple people, and can complete common basic tasks like ordering dinner or maybe something fancier.
It was fairly clear to me that this is a very, very early product and space. Time/abilities will help refine it for its purpose. The small screen, mic, and camera I thought was a good enough start at a low price point to see what a dedicated machine could be. There’s a whole lot more they can do from here.
It was fairly clear to me that this is a very, very early product and space. Time/abilities will help refine it for its purpose. The small screen, mic, and camera I thought was a good enough start at a low price point to see what a dedicated machine could be. There’s a whole lot more they can do from here.
The hardware is trash and the company is run by NFT grifters. It's a scam.
Do you ever pay for FOSS software?
No.
No.
Some of us do donate instead when the option is available.
Recent and related:
Rabbit data breach: all r1 responses ever given can be downloaded - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40792684 - June 2024 (32 comments)
Rabbit data breach: all r1 responses ever given can be downloaded - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40792684 - June 2024 (32 comments)
Article title downplays the important part (can read other users emails)
but only on the r1 subdomain, which is used for sending spreadsheets to users, so all spreadsheets can be read
+ from a researcher in discord: “we couldve also read auth.rabbit.tech […] which is basically all rabbithole password resets, aka arbitrary account takeover including admin accounts”
+ from a researcher in discord: “we couldve also read auth.rabbit.tech […] which is basically all rabbithole password resets, aka arbitrary account takeover including admin accounts”
I had bought one but after the hackernews articles, I vowed to not open the box and send it back. I was prompted refunded and I'm glad I followed through.
My R1 is quite terrible, queries only work about half the time. When it does work it has limited information/functionality. Keeping it to hack on the hardware though, it's pretty spiffy.
I am quite happy with mine. I installed LineageOS (GSI image without Google stuff) on my Rabbit R1 - the goal is to have a less addictive mobile device that can do offline maps with GPS and otherwise be a modern iPod (listening to podcasts and music) - and it's quite good for that. Using the wheel to zoom in Organic Maps is fun :-)
I hope to find the time to blog about this soon.
I hope to find the time to blog about this soon.
Do a teardown video plz.
Multiple exist on the internet, did you try searching? https://www.ifixit.com/News/95474/rabbit-r1-and-humane-ai-pi...
Once it came to light that the Rabbit founders last venture was a blatant rug-pull Web3/NFT project it was only a matter of time before this project fell apart as well.
https://www.xda-developers.com/rabbit-nft-company-past/
The claims they made about the R1s capabilities even echoed claims they had previously made about their defunct GAMA "Quantum Engine" Web3 buzzword soup.
> Later, in August 2023, the "Quantum Engine" became OS2, a personalized operating system that could do things for you like order groceries.
https://www.xda-developers.com/rabbit-nft-company-past/
The claims they made about the R1s capabilities even echoed claims they had previously made about their defunct GAMA "Quantum Engine" Web3 buzzword soup.
> Later, in August 2023, the "Quantum Engine" became OS2, a personalized operating system that could do things for you like order groceries.
The 404 Media article linked on the page:
https://archive.is/QdTbK
https://archive.is/QdTbK
I really can't believe anyone bought one of these devices. It looked terrible right out of the gate.
[deleted]
Here is Coffeezilla's take on the product https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLvFc_24vSM
This article [0] says they should have used secrets management, since they are using Kubernetes anyway, so this seems to be about their server, not the embedded or Android code.
Doesn't accessing the hard coded api keys imply to intrude the server in the first place?
[0] https://www.404media.co/researchers-prove-rabbit-ai-breach-b...
Doesn't accessing the hard coded api keys imply to intrude the server in the first place?
[0] https://www.404media.co/researchers-prove-rabbit-ai-breach-b...
Bit confused on how this group got access to the rabbit codebase, as this sounds closer to backend code and not jadx'ing the APK.
Are there any details on that?
Are there any details on that?
This level of incompetence is quite amazing to see.
I feel bad for teenage engineering. I'm a fan of their gear and its design, including the R1's physical design. It's a shame that it didn't have utility and turned into such a hot mess.
Maybe they can add some MIDI ports and make some sort of funky pocket instrument.
Maybe they can add some MIDI ports and make some sort of funky pocket instrument.
What an absolute dumpster fire Rabbit has been.
I knew they were overhyping things with their pre-launch promises, but the reality of their engineering was much worse than I could have ever imagined.
I knew they were overhyping things with their pre-launch promises, but the reality of their engineering was much worse than I could have ever imagined.
They were shilling NFTs and metaverse shit not long ago. That should tell you enough about the scrupulousness, or lack thereof, of these people.
Tbh I got exactly what I expected when buying the R1, build quality is actually even better than expected.
I was wanting to reply to another comment to this, but I keep getting an error from HN:
>jsheard 14 minutes ago | parent | next [–]
>They contracted Teenage Engineering to do the industrial design so that part at least was done competently. TEs involvement brought them a lot of attention, which has now backfired on TE since there will probably be a lot more skepticism of their partnerships after this.
My reply is that I am curious if TE has anything put in place so that this doesn't happen again, and what projects they're currently launching that took place before any procedures to prevent it. Generally, I enjoy TE's gear, but this has given me pause.
>jsheard 14 minutes ago | parent | next [–]
>They contracted Teenage Engineering to do the industrial design so that part at least was done competently. TEs involvement brought them a lot of attention, which has now backfired on TE since there will probably be a lot more skepticism of their partnerships after this.
My reply is that I am curious if TE has anything put in place so that this doesn't happen again, and what projects they're currently launching that took place before any procedures to prevent it. Generally, I enjoy TE's gear, but this has given me pause.
But it wasn't a product sold by TE, it was a consultancy. And they delivered - the actual hardware is pretty great. What's the problem?
The problem is obvious, I'm a customer of theirs and now I'll sit out the next few releases and be more cautious in buying their hardware on the chances that there are more projects like this working their way out of the pipeline as they learn from it. This has damaged their brand. I am only one person, but I would be surprised if I'm the only one who feels this way.
TE lives to damage their brand in the strangest ways.[0] They survive off of niches and influencer hype cycles. There is no stopping the average TE customer because they are there for the aesthetics alone even if the value proposition gets worse all the time on many of their products. The OP-1 went from $699-1400 over time before they even put out a significant hardware revision for even more money.
That being said I still want a ep-133, because I'm weak.
[0]https://teenage.engineering/store/field-desk
That being said I still want a ep-133, because I'm weak.
[0]https://teenage.engineering/store/field-desk
Teenage Engineerings design language is so unique, that it is deeply intertwined with their brand. That is a pretty rare thing, only Apple and (Rams) Braun come to mind, and I think TE is the most extreme of them.
Because their design language is essentialy their brand, any product that was designed by them will automatically be associated with them by customers.
This is good for them with a product like Panics PlayDate, but can be really bad in cases like the Rabit R1. Customers will see their consultancy as endorsement, and any publicity good or bad will reflect onto to them.
This is good for them with a product like Panics PlayDate, but can be really bad in cases like the Rabit R1. Customers will see their consultancy as endorsement, and any publicity good or bad will reflect onto to them.
Jesse is on the board of Teenage Engineering and the founder is the Chief Design Officer at Rabbit:
https://www.rabbit.tech/newsroom/teenage-engineering-jesper-...
This is far more than just a consultancy job.
https://www.rabbit.tech/newsroom/teenage-engineering-jesper-...
This is far more than just a consultancy job.
Interesting. I still don’t see how it discounts future TE products. The presumption that Jesse being CDO is intertwined with over promises underdelivered AI to me is unlikely to be related; it’d be different in a CTO role. The actual design is quite good, both hardware and the software is pretty cute even if anemic. They have a fairly unique aesthetic that’s tied to the hardware, and they’re experimenting in a new space.
We’ll see what happens to rabbit but they did raise $30M from fancy folks. Because everything from now is just software it can and should improve — we’ll see if LAM eventually makes it. But personally having real world experience in AI, there’s a huge gap between a compelling demo and production quality delivery. Just look at AI overviews at Google, and no one sensible would claim that Google is made up of grifters.
We’ll see what happens to rabbit but they did raise $30M from fancy folks. Because everything from now is just software it can and should improve — we’ll see if LAM eventually makes it. But personally having real world experience in AI, there’s a huge gap between a compelling demo and production quality delivery. Just look at AI overviews at Google, and no one sensible would claim that Google is made up of grifters.
[deleted]
Jesse Lyu's story just smells off. He was into crypto, then moved to AI. He seems like a grifter hopping on the hottest trend. I'm looking at you, C3.ai's Tom Siebel.
If you look on Twitter it's a very common story.
Whilst many of the low-level scammers stayed in crypto promoting the next coin the smarter players moved into AI.
It's why you see the cult-like, fervent, influencer centric attitude towards e-acc, AGI, LLMs etc.
Whilst many of the low-level scammers stayed in crypto promoting the next coin the smarter players moved into AI.
It's why you see the cult-like, fervent, influencer centric attitude towards e-acc, AGI, LLMs etc.
Is this verified? 404 Media wrote that they got an email from the researcher impersonating Rabbit[0], but the unpaywalled part of that doesn't explicitly say that they verified the headers. I could spoof an email from [email protected] to an email server that doesn't strictly enforce SPF etc., but that's a lot different than sending an email out via the actual whitehouse.gov mailserver.
Given the other claims, I don't doubt that researchers can do this. I just haven't yet seen a strong verification of this claim.
[0]https://www.404media.co/researchers-prove-rabbit-ai-breach-b...
Given the other claims, I don't doubt that researchers can do this. I just haven't yet seen a strong verification of this claim.
[0]https://www.404media.co/researchers-prove-rabbit-ai-breach-b...
I was among those who received a demonstration email, and I can confirm that DKIM+DMARC+SPF all checked out.
Someone else shared an .eml, which I haven't looked at personally, but presumably checks out: https://x.com/RhinozzCode/status/1805987021304820181
Someone else shared an .eml, which I haven't looked at personally, but presumably checks out: https://x.com/RhinozzCode/status/1805987021304820181
Thanks for that!
Again, it's not that I doubted it in the light of everything else, but wanted some verification before I talk about it to friends.
Again, it's not that I doubted it in the light of everything else, but wanted some verification before I talk about it to friends.
> but the unpaywalled part
It's worth noting that as far as I'm aware, 404Media doesn't have a paywall, it has a sign-in wall. In theory, I think you can register and bypass it for free.
It's worth noting that as far as I'm aware, 404Media doesn't have a paywall, it has a sign-in wall. In theory, I think you can register and bypass it for free.
> It's worth noting that as far as I'm aware, 404Media doesn't have a paywall, it has a sign-in wall.
That's still a paywall.
> In theory, I think you can register and bypass it for free.
The price is your data and them spamming your email/selling it to whoever to spam.
That's still a paywall.
> In theory, I think you can register and bypass it for free.
The price is your data and them spamming your email/selling it to whoever to spam.
me to rabbit: "why don't you just give up?"
Anyway, I'm looking forward to giving it a try, and I'll almost certainly never use it once I've kind of pawed through it and seen what seems good and what seems bad. Similar for that humane pin which I think I paid for but never even received.
If you read a lot of sci-fi, authors have put an immense amount of time into thinking about what UI looks like as we have supercompute/AI access more broadly, and I think it's clear that a phone isn't the final state for these interactions. What's less clear to me is what sort of compelling mid-way points there are between what we have now and ubiquitous environment-aware AGI (e.g. Minds from Iain Banks). It's one reason I thought humane's projector was really interesting; we do a lot of visual interaction in daily life, so an audio-only earbud isn't likely to be the be-all/end-all.
Anyway, hardware startup guys, please make more of these, and figure out what's going to be compelling when we've scaled up bandwidth, scaled down latency and scaled up local compute. I'm looking forward to buying it.