Apple Users Are Keeping Their Devices for Longer as Upgrades Slow(macrumors.com)
macrumors.com
Apple Users Are Keeping Their Devices for Longer as Upgrades Slow
https://www.macrumors.com/2024/07/10/apple-users-keeping-their-devices-for-longer/
114 comments
Sounds like you still have TouchID instead of FaceID. The pandemic was quite a wakeup call for this, with far more people wearing masks than gloves, people using FaceID were set back much more than people using TouchID.
Then Apple just made FaceID work even with masks. Now TouchID is further behind by still not working with gloves, while FaceID works in more situations than ever before. When you don't need to authorize a sensitive operation, just unlock, a paired Apple Watch can also be configured to unlock the iPhone.
Then Apple just made FaceID work even with masks. Now TouchID is further behind by still not working with gloves, while FaceID works in more situations than ever before. When you don't need to authorize a sensitive operation, just unlock, a paired Apple Watch can also be configured to unlock the iPhone.
I'm in the same boat as you, with a 7. Every time I look at maybe replacing it, I see how expensive the newer ones still are, and I just can't justify it. I don't care about gaming performance or the camera, and those seem to be the only things that really get improved year after year.
My wife is still using a Macbook Pro from mid 2009 that was bought as a gift from my father. I have had to replace the hdd a few times, but it still works. The problem now is some SSL certs don't work properly anymore, but installing Brave as resolved that issue for now.
I just really like the convenience of the fingerprint reader.
So is everyone, not just Apple users. Except for specific use cases 3 years in the context of a computer is no time at all now, and hasn't been for at least a decade.
Maybe because the devices are now, finally, not shitty and not prone to lots of bugs and don't break down so often? Every Apple phone from iPhone 11 and every mac from the first M1, were more or less bug free. It's not surprising people aren't rushing to trash them.
In my experience, Apple hardware has been quite stable for over a decade. While I think the stability makes it easier to stay on old devices, I'm not sure I agree that it's the primary driver.
I love Apple's ecosystem. The devices interoperate very well, but Apple tries to make it feel like you're missing out on something if you don't have the full suite of devices. And unfortunately, it costs a lot to keep up.
For example, I have an iPhone, an Apple Watch, a Macbook Pro (M2 Max, main workstation), an iPad, 2 Apple TV 4Ks, and a Mac Mini (M1, used as a secondary machine in my workshop). This year I upgraded my iPhone and Apple Watch after 3 years. Next year I anticipate replacing my iPad, the following year is the Mac Mini, and a couple years after that would be the MBP (which will be a $4300? expense?).
While I'm fortunate enough to have a lot of disposable income... perhaps I'm being a bit stingy here, but spending more than $1500/yr feels rough. I can't see how anyone could mostly buy into Apple's ecosystem on an average disposable income level and not keep their devices for several years.
If that's not bad enough, now Apple's really pushing their added services to get more out of the devices. Apple One is $40/mo. Even though it's a suite of services, a $40/mo subscription feels steep.
I love Apple's ecosystem. The devices interoperate very well, but Apple tries to make it feel like you're missing out on something if you don't have the full suite of devices. And unfortunately, it costs a lot to keep up.
For example, I have an iPhone, an Apple Watch, a Macbook Pro (M2 Max, main workstation), an iPad, 2 Apple TV 4Ks, and a Mac Mini (M1, used as a secondary machine in my workshop). This year I upgraded my iPhone and Apple Watch after 3 years. Next year I anticipate replacing my iPad, the following year is the Mac Mini, and a couple years after that would be the MBP (which will be a $4300? expense?).
While I'm fortunate enough to have a lot of disposable income... perhaps I'm being a bit stingy here, but spending more than $1500/yr feels rough. I can't see how anyone could mostly buy into Apple's ecosystem on an average disposable income level and not keep their devices for several years.
If that's not bad enough, now Apple's really pushing their added services to get more out of the devices. Apple One is $40/mo. Even though it's a suite of services, a $40/mo subscription feels steep.
Oh 2018 Intel macs butterfly keyboards were anything but good hardware. Cables used to wear out extremely quickly back then. There were a few other highly annoying quirks. Only by 2020 or so, hardware got really stable and pleasant to use. I heard M2 Airs had had overheating issues though, although i never owned one.
If they didn't add USB-C to the iPhone, I wouldn't have upgraded for years
I was honestly surprised when my company made me go from my intel to an m1 - the intel worked perfectly fine and so much more compatible for development purposes
Honestly, I was pretty happy with my iPhone 3G.
It’s because everything else is more expensive and people have lower discretionary spending. If my home insurance, auto insurance, health insurance, car payments, rent, grocery bills, childcare and pretty much everything else went up and stayed there, just maybe I can hold on to my older phone for one more year. Paul Krugman would disagree, but that’s about it.
I think it has more to do with the marginal improvements.
The difference between an iPhone 6 and 7 is massive compared to an iPhone 14 versus 15.
The difference between an iPhone 6 and 7 is massive compared to an iPhone 14 versus 15.
If you look at the share of people holding on to their phones, more people are holding on for 3+ years. It’s not a comparison between 14 and 15, but rather 11/12 and 15. Those differences are not marginal.
Until the Apple Intelligence features were announced the only improvements I really cared about between models is the camera. Yes it’s better in a host of other ways, but not really things that would drive me to buy a new phone. I basically only upgraded because the battery capacity had degraded to the point where it couldn’t hold a charge for a full day anymore. I expect that’s the line that most people are holding out for now.
I was looking for a new phone to finally replace my 7, and considered 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. Honestly, I couldn't tell you why I would go for one of them over any others. All I know is that the older ones are cheaper and they'll probably drop software support for the older ones sooner than the newer ones, but they're pretty much identical when it comes to what I use my phone for (making calls, occasionally browsing the web).
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It all depends on what you use the phone for, but I have an iPhone 11 that I have no intention of replacing any time soon. I have an iPhone 15 for work and I was like "meh".
But I get it - some people use it for things that are much more intensive and the difference is noticeable.
But for me, it's mostly messaging, a few travel/shopping apps, and occasional Safari use.
But I get it - some people use it for things that are much more intensive and the difference is noticeable.
But for me, it's mostly messaging, a few travel/shopping apps, and occasional Safari use.
Lightning vs USB is almost a reason to upgrade by itself
I was very excited by switching to USB C for my iphone, but by the time the phone was released it just didn't seem like an upgrade to my iphone 12, and I wasn't going to pay $1K just to get rid of a cable.
I am with you. I’m still on an iPhone 12 Pro Max. Not even Apple Intelligence is reason for me to upgrade and I use and pay for ChatGPT
No, that’s a reason to not upgrade, so that I don’t have to replace all my cords.
I still have sn iPhone 12 Pro Max. But most of my cords are like this.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08PVLGWQY
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08PVLGWQY
It’s also because the phones aren’t getting better as fast as they used to. When the megapixels were doubling from 1 to 2 it was noticeable. Now the photos are as good as I’ll ever need.
These days the real limiting factor is software over hardware when it comes to phone cameras. There's an enormous amount of processing dedicated to making them look just the way people want.
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iPhones and MacBooks have always been expensive luxury products for anybody outside of the tech bubble.
Ya but you want that new Apple Intelligence right?
This might be the first feature driven upgrade cycle that I can see people really wanting. This isn't an incremental update to an existing thing. This is a whole new thing that brings hype wagon to the masses in a probably the best integrated into daily use I've seen pitched.
Leave it to the financial press to take something that’s a win for both consumers and the environment and try to frame it as a problem.
I went from upgrading every 2 years to planning to wait for 3. One additional year isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, and my phone is mostly capable of doing everything I want already. The biggest factor though is that I have become more suspicious of new features, rather than enthused by them. I actually don't use most of the new capabilities on my current phone other than the improved camera. Really I just want incremental hardware performance and battery life upgrades and the same capabilities, but I am not given easy options to just avoid the new features in many cases (e.g. forced to turn Siri on to use CarPlay as an example).
Not sure if I'm representative of most Apple buyers, probably not, but I think this is not just me. When technology is exciting and new features are something you want, you will go and buy and shift money around to make it happen if necessary. But if you are not excited, and dread what's coming next (even less privacy, now with AI you don't control), it's a different story.
Not sure if I'm representative of most Apple buyers, probably not, but I think this is not just me. When technology is exciting and new features are something you want, you will go and buy and shift money around to make it happen if necessary. But if you are not excited, and dread what's coming next (even less privacy, now with AI you don't control), it's a different story.
The M1 was a particularly good buy, IMHO. Going on 4 years now and it's still no slouch.
Treat the battery well (avoid wireless charging when you can, don't charge when hot) and these devices can last a long time. And even when the battery starts to die, you can get an official replacement for much less than the cost of a new phone.
If you're a typical high income tech person who upgrades their desktop, laptop, phone, tablet, and watch on a regular cycle, that's a staggering amount of money to stay on the treadmill. I'm consciously choosing to keep my devices as long as possible. I've given up smartwatches, my desktop and tablet are 8 years old, and I plan to keep my phone for at least 5 years.
If you're a typical high income tech person who upgrades their desktop, laptop, phone, tablet, and watch on a regular cycle, that's a staggering amount of money to stay on the treadmill. I'm consciously choosing to keep my devices as long as possible. I've given up smartwatches, my desktop and tablet are 8 years old, and I plan to keep my phone for at least 5 years.
I just replace the battery. I don’t treat my phones battery with kid gloves.
That being said, the battery capacity of my iPhone 12 Pro Max bought when it was first introduced is still at 80%
That being said, the battery capacity of my iPhone 12 Pro Max bought when it was first introduced is still at 80%
My iPhone 11 from October 2019 (launch) is at around 75% on the battery.
It is actually pretty amazing considering the device has been in continuous around the clock use (powered on) for nearly 5 years.
It is actually pretty amazing considering the device has been in continuous around the clock use (powered on) for nearly 5 years.
Avoid wireless charging ?
What's wrong with it ?
What's wrong with it ?
Wireless charging generates a lot more sustained heat, which can, hypothetically (and in some cases has been demonstrated to) cause chemical degradation of the battery faster. Heat and high charging speeds, combined with keeping the battery at extremes (close to 0%, close to 100%) is the worst combination.
Generates a lot of heat. I first noticed when my phone was unable to do nav while wirelessly charging in a rental car.
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>get an official replacement
How? Apple doesn't sell spare parts. I went through two battery replacements on my iPhone SE 1G, after the original battery died. One from iFixit which was terrible. Battery SoC and performance was always wonky with that. Another from a reputable spare parts seller here, which had Apple branding on it, and it started good, but soon developed the same problem as the first.
Given Apples hostility toward repairs, it's obvious they'd rather you throw your device into the ocean and pay for a new one.
How? Apple doesn't sell spare parts. I went through two battery replacements on my iPhone SE 1G, after the original battery died. One from iFixit which was terrible. Battery SoC and performance was always wonky with that. Another from a reputable spare parts seller here, which had Apple branding on it, and it started good, but soon developed the same problem as the first.
Given Apples hostility toward repairs, it's obvious they'd rather you throw your device into the ocean and pay for a new one.
By "official replacement" I meant taking it to the store and having them do it. My wife recently got a battery replacement at the Apple Store, around $100. Paying that every 2 years is a lot cheaper (and better for the environment) than buying a new $1000 phone.
The year over year changes don't really necessitate an upgrade anymore. Even an iPhone 13 holds up really well against the 15. I've moved to a 2 year upgrade cycle, but honestly might even do 3 years.
Didn't Apple stop slowing people's old phones down when they were caught a few years ago? That probably plays a factor.
They have never slowed down “old phones”. Anyone still spreading this is doing so maliciously by this point.
They slowed individual handsets with degraded batteries to prevent resets. They still do. Replacing the battery brought the device back to full speed.
They got flak for not telling the user, so they alert now. All new iPhones have this feature.
Ironically this was actually to extend the life of the device - many people who would have upgraded if their phone was resetting under high load just carried on using it throttled (my wife included).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate
They slowed individual handsets with degraded batteries to prevent resets. They still do. Replacing the battery brought the device back to full speed.
They got flak for not telling the user, so they alert now. All new iPhones have this feature.
Ironically this was actually to extend the life of the device - many people who would have upgraded if their phone was resetting under high load just carried on using it throttled (my wife included).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate
Apple slowed down old phones with old batteries.
Apple is the only malicious perpetrator here. For many years they had specifically denied that they were doing this. That is malicious and borderline criminal damage.
Then when they got caught they came up with plausible deniability. It was evil, it was dishonest and it was awful.
Apple is the only malicious perpetrator here. For many years they had specifically denied that they were doing this. That is malicious and borderline criminal damage.
Then when they got caught they came up with plausible deniability. It was evil, it was dishonest and it was awful.
What you have posted is not supported by any evidence at all.
Replacing the battery brought the handset to full speed. How do you fake this well enough for it to be only “plausible deniability”?
Replacing the battery brought the handset to full speed. How do you fake this well enough for it to be only “plausible deniability”?
Apple lost a class action in the US and there is another UK class action pending.
The Apple PR people are reaching pretty low trying to deny this ever happened.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67911517
The Apple PR people are reaching pretty low trying to deny this ever happened.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67911517
Nobody is denying the existence of batterygate. Apple now describe the throttling on their website. The class action is around the notification to the users when the feature first came out. If they got “caught” then the feature wouldn’t still exist today, but it does.
> Then when they got caught they came up with plausible deniability.
This is the bit you need to prove. You are implying that they were maliciously doing something underhand rather than implementing a feature to stop degraded batteries causing reboots. How do you implement the exact features required for degraded battery management when you are trying to do something else like slow phones to sell more? That’s the bit you need to explain.
> Then when they got caught they came up with plausible deniability.
This is the bit you need to prove. You are implying that they were maliciously doing something underhand rather than implementing a feature to stop degraded batteries causing reboots. How do you implement the exact features required for degraded battery management when you are trying to do something else like slow phones to sell more? That’s the bit you need to explain.
I refer to my previous statement.
The one where you incorrectly claim they lost a class action case, when in fact they reached a settlement?
They weren't just slowing down old phone's. They were maintaining battery life by throttling the CPU.
As far as I know they added a setting to turn that feature off. Not sure if that's on by default or not.
As far as I know they added a setting to turn that feature off. Not sure if that's on by default or not.
It was off by default, but it turns on if your phone unexpectedly shuts down. They later added the option to turn it off.
The thing is, they were covering up a battery defect unique to a few models like the iPhone 6. Also the throttling was pretty conservative. It made my phone lag so hard that even typing in a default app like Messages was a chore. My phone almost never shut down even after I disabled it, so it's not like I needed it.
The thing is, they were covering up a battery defect unique to a few models like the iPhone 6. Also the throttling was pretty conservative. It made my phone lag so hard that even typing in a default app like Messages was a chore. My phone almost never shut down even after I disabled it, so it's not like I needed it.
> The thing is, they were covering up a battery defect unique to a few models like the iPhone 6.
Do you have any proof of this?
> My phone almost never shut down even after I disabled it, so it's not like I needed it.
“Almost never” sounds like you did. There are a few factors at play such as temperature that can’t be exactly characterised so it has to be conservative.
Do you have any proof of this?
> My phone almost never shut down even after I disabled it, so it's not like I needed it.
“Almost never” sounds like you did. There are a few factors at play such as temperature that can’t be exactly characterised so it has to be conservative.
Apple said it themselves about the 6S at least: https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/6/13853280/apple-iphone-6s-...
Mine shut down once, at a low %. It was a very easy decision to disable the throttling. Even if I were unlucky enough to get a model that shut down more frequently, the throttling was so bad that it'd have been worth disabling.
Mine shut down once, at a low %. It was a very easy decision to disable the throttling. Even if I were unlucky enough to get a model that shut down more frequently, the throttling was so bad that it'd have been worth disabling.
I don’t see any indication this feature was put there to cover up the issue. It would definitely help since it helps with battery degradation in general, but they would limit it to specific models if it was that targeted and there would be no need to still have the feature around today.
"For iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, iPhone 6s, iPhone 6s Plus, iPhone SE (1st generation), iPhone 7, and iPhone 7 Plus, iOS dynamically manages performance peaks to prevent the device from unexpectedly shutting down, so you can still use your iPhone."
It was limited to certain models, which makes sense because personally, I've never seen an older iPhone (≤5) shut off randomly. Apple didn't say what the affected models have in common.
It was limited to certain models, which makes sense because personally, I've never seen an older iPhone (≤5) shut off randomly. Apple didn't say what the affected models have in common.
The feature still exists today. On my iPhone 11 I can go in to the settings under Battery -> Battery Health & Charging and see that I have “Peak Performance Capability”.
This isn’t an issue unique to iPhones either. Different battery chemistries will behave differently and different technology nodes and designs will have varying supply requirements, but in general the internal resistance will increase as the battery ages and cause brownouts as the voltage dips under high load.
This isn’t an issue unique to iPhones either. Different battery chemistries will behave differently and different technology nodes and designs will have varying supply requirements, but in general the internal resistance will increase as the battery ages and cause brownouts as the voltage dips under high load.
It's called something similar, but it doesn't seem like the same thing. For one, I don't think you can force an iPhone 11 into max performance mode like you can with a 6. If you read the context around that quote on Apple's site, the later phones are called out separately.
I understand that batteries in general can have voltage dips as they degrade, but the 6-7 had something especially wrong with them. Unlike Antennagate, Batterygate was a real thing.
I understand that batteries in general can have voltage dips as they degrade, but the 6-7 had something especially wrong with them. Unlike Antennagate, Batterygate was a real thing.
They are broadly the same. It’s a bit more dynamic now rather than on/off but still throttling based on battery health. They are probably monitoring the rails and clocking down directly on a feedback loop which is the way to do it if you want to eke out all the performance you can.
11 and above:
> While performance impacts are reduced as much as possible, battery ageing might still eventually lead to noticeable, possibly temporary, effects. Depending on the battery state, level of charge and the tasks that your iPhone is handling, examples might include longer app launch times, lower frame rates, increased processing times, reduced wireless-data throughput, backlight dimming or lower speaker volume. During the most extreme cases, the camera flash or other camera features might be temporarily disabled.
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/106348
Below 11:
> Additionally, you can see if the performance-management feature, which dynamically manages maximum performance to prevent unexpected shutdowns, is on, and you can choose to turn it off. This feature is enabled only after an unexpected shutdown first occurs on a device with a battery that has diminished ability to deliver maximum instantaneous power. This feature applies to iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, iPhone 6s, iPhone 6s Plus, iPhone SE (1st generation), iPhone 7 and iPhone 7 Plus. Starting with iOS 12.1, iPhone 8, iPhone 8 Plus and iPhone X include this feature; iPhone XS, iPhone XS Max and iPhone XR include this feature starting with iOS 13.1.
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/101575
11 and above:
> While performance impacts are reduced as much as possible, battery ageing might still eventually lead to noticeable, possibly temporary, effects. Depending on the battery state, level of charge and the tasks that your iPhone is handling, examples might include longer app launch times, lower frame rates, increased processing times, reduced wireless-data throughput, backlight dimming or lower speaker volume. During the most extreme cases, the camera flash or other camera features might be temporarily disabled.
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/106348
Below 11:
> Additionally, you can see if the performance-management feature, which dynamically manages maximum performance to prevent unexpected shutdowns, is on, and you can choose to turn it off. This feature is enabled only after an unexpected shutdown first occurs on a device with a battery that has diminished ability to deliver maximum instantaneous power. This feature applies to iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, iPhone 6s, iPhone 6s Plus, iPhone SE (1st generation), iPhone 7 and iPhone 7 Plus. Starting with iOS 12.1, iPhone 8, iPhone 8 Plus and iPhone X include this feature; iPhone XS, iPhone XS Max and iPhone XR include this feature starting with iOS 13.1.
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/101575
Avoiding having the phone shutdown by drawing power faster than an older battery can support, actually.
You can’t turn that off, but there’s now more communication that replacing the battery will make the phone faster.
You can’t turn that off, but there’s now more communication that replacing the battery will make the phone faster.
You can turn it off
https://ibb.co/sjtG65M
https://ibb.co/sjtG65M
Yeah, they tried very hard to take my headphone jack away by slowing down my iPhone 6. I waited for them to add that option to disable the throttler. Only reason I recently stopped using that phone is it completely died from being dropped.
The alternative was your phone shutting off as the battery got old
Mine almost never shut down once I disabled the throttling. Maybe once.
And you don’t see an issue with that and why Apple might want to take precautions against it on a wider scale?
Yes, I get it. Since they wanted to take this precaution, they could have told us and let us disable it. Instead, it was obvious that they tried to hide it for as long as possible. By the time someone proved it and there was enough PR fire to do something about it, probably a lot of frustrated users had already bought new phones.
The end result for me personally was having a borderline unusable iPhone for how ever long this was, even though it was fairly new. And they never fixed the root cause, which was a seemingly flawed battery design.
The end result for me personally was having a borderline unusable iPhone for how ever long this was, even though it was fairly new. And they never fixed the root cause, which was a seemingly flawed battery design.
I got the iPhone 3G, 4, 5, 6, and 7 at release. New phone every two years like clockwork. Then I got the 12 mini because finally, a small phone again. Also the 7 was nearing the end of support. I still have the 12 mini. I will keep it until iOS no longer supports it.
I also have an iPad Pro 3rd gen. I thought it would lose support this year, but no! It's confirmed at least one more year.
I also have an iPad Pro 3rd gen. I thought it would lose support this year, but no! It's confirmed at least one more year.
I love these devices but we've got all M1 devices (two M1 Maxes, an M1 Air, an M1 iPad) and iPhones 13 and they're just too good to need to replace. Apple really blew it out of the water with that CPU class.
As someone who uses Mac products (macpro, ipad, iphone), I can say I've never had hardware from any other vendor which has lasted so long. Their gear stays functional for several years (especially the macbook pro) and the only reason I upgrade my iphone was because I get tired of replacing the battery.
My old Macbook from 2016 is still being used by my wife and the only issue she has is hard drive space. The compute power is still spot on. My reason for upgrading to a M1 was just because I wanted to play with the ARM chipset.
I've never had any other brand of laptop or phone age so well (maybe because my last Android was from 2014). There's a cost premium for Apple but I think over time, their gear is more cost effective.
My old Macbook from 2016 is still being used by my wife and the only issue she has is hard drive space. The compute power is still spot on. My reason for upgrading to a M1 was just because I wanted to play with the ARM chipset.
I've never had any other brand of laptop or phone age so well (maybe because my last Android was from 2014). There's a cost premium for Apple but I think over time, their gear is more cost effective.
We just decommissioned a 2011 iMac for a coworker, pretty much only because it no longer runs a supported MacOS version. I did an Ubuntu install out of curiosity, and it runs fabulously. We don't know what to do with it; it would probably make a nice machine for someone for years to come, but we don't have anyone who needs one.
> Their gear stays functional for several years
Wow!
Wow!
Yes wow, because it’s not the norm. Before I switched to an iPhone, I needed to change my Android phone every 2 years or so (sometimes less) because they became completely unusable, from hardware issues (broken connectors) to software issues (I had 2 Nexus 5x that died because of a bootloop issue, unacknowledged by Google). Android also becomes extremely slow pretty quickly for some reason.
For comparison I’ve had my iPhone 12 for 3,5 years and it shows no sign of slowness or battery issues or whatever, and I intend to keep it for at least 1 or 2 more years. When OP say it stays functional for several years, they mean it stays as functional as the first day for several years, with no degradation.
For comparison I’ve had my iPhone 12 for 3,5 years and it shows no sign of slowness or battery issues or whatever, and I intend to keep it for at least 1 or 2 more years. When OP say it stays functional for several years, they mean it stays as functional as the first day for several years, with no degradation.
You would have had the same experience staying on Android. I used to switch Androids every ~2 years, but I've had my latest Android for >4 years and feel like I've got several more years in it.
Good to know they improved their game!
I have my daily driver Lenovo E520 from 2011 still working fine with new battery, replaced HDD by SSD and using it as second HDD instead of CDROM bay.
> and the only issue she has is hard drive space
Can't you just switch the SSD to a 4TB one and clone the old disk over?
Can't you just switch the SSD to a 4TB one and clone the old disk over?
All of my daily driver Apple hardware are in the 2014-2016 vintage, including a Mac Mini, an iMac, several displays, a MacBook Air, and an iPhone 7. They all still work flawlessly--my only complaint is that both the OS and many 3rd party apps have deliberately stopped providing updates for these devices.
It's sad how much longer the hardware outlasts the software (which doesn't wear out).
It's sad how much longer the hardware outlasts the software (which doesn't wear out).
The issue with Apple computers is that they abandon them faster.
I had a Mac Mini Core Duo from 2006 that was abandoned by Apple in less than 3 years. I put Windows 7 on it. MS didn’t end support for Windows 7 until 2020.
I had a Dell Core 2 Duo 2.66Ghz laptop from 2008 that I put Windows 10 on and it doesn’t reach end of life until 2025. I just retired it as my Plex Server in 2020.
I had a Mac Mini Core Duo from 2006 that was abandoned by Apple in less than 3 years. I put Windows 7 on it. MS didn’t end support for Windows 7 until 2020.
I had a Dell Core 2 Duo 2.66Ghz laptop from 2008 that I put Windows 10 on and it doesn’t reach end of life until 2025. I just retired it as my Plex Server in 2020.
Core Duos received software updates until October 2014… what was abandoned in 3 years?
The Core Duos were 32-bit, they only sold them for about 6 months before refreshing everything to the Core 2 Duo (64-bit). They were supported for 5 years though, not less than 3. 10.7 was the release that dropped 32-bit Intel support and that was released in 2011. 10.6 still got updates for a few more years though, it didn't die in 2011.
I have a macbook pro from my father from 2012 that work just fine, but I have to patch the bootloader and insert some kexts to run the latest version.
It works just fine, but Apple don't want it to work.
My daughter has an apple watch se that they also stopped updating after just 3 years, so now the LTE on it is useless as the carriers here require a newer version.
She's getting the pixel treatment when it's time to get a new phone.
It works just fine, but Apple don't want it to work.
My daughter has an apple watch se that they also stopped updating after just 3 years, so now the LTE on it is useless as the carriers here require a newer version.
She's getting the pixel treatment when it's time to get a new phone.
I have not had the same experience at all. I have MacBooks and old iPads or phones that are totally bricked and unable to update, but PC towers I built 15 years ago that still run like a champ. Just an anecdote, but I feel like I HAVE to upgrade Apple products, or they simply stop working, while the PCs I've built last the test of time.
Comparing laptops and tablets to PC towers isn't even.
If the laptop and the ipad had been sitting in a corner of a climate controlled room being rarely handled, they would likely have lasted quite a bit longer.
If I compare my iPad to my mom's Surface, it is MUCH more durable. Same thing when I compare a macbook to a Dell laptop.
If the laptop and the ipad had been sitting in a corner of a climate controlled room being rarely handled, they would likely have lasted quite a bit longer.
If I compare my iPad to my mom's Surface, it is MUCH more durable. Same thing when I compare a macbook to a Dell laptop.
That's fair. But I do feel like a Macbook pro workhorse ought to feel like it has similar lifespan as a heavily-used desktop.
Maybe I'm too optimistic, or the wear and tear of portability really has a lot of influence here.
Maybe I'm too optimistic, or the wear and tear of portability really has a lot of influence here.
Is that true? I feel like iPhones and iPads receive updates for what seems like an industry-leading amount of time. I view Android tablets as relatively disposable, but my iPad Air from 2018 hasn't missed a beat. The battery is starting to slow down a bit but it easily handles my required tasks.
The problem is apps raising the minimum iOS version. Apple usually doesn’t backport new APIs, so developers are eager to bump it up to use new APIs/frameworks. Similar thing is now happening on macOS. A lot of apps require macOS 11/12, which is pretty crazy compared to how desktop software used to run on much older versions of OSX.
Yea, I've seen apps that required >= the latest OS version available! Totally unacceptable. From a marketing POV alone, why would you just close the door on a significant % of your market before they even look at the product?
When I had a job writing mobile apps, I tried to "fight the good fight" by keeping our minimum version as low as possible, but everyone up the chain from me pressured us to increase it, especially software engineering, because it was "too hard" to maintain backward compatibility with older versions. Even though maintaining compatibility usually just meant a handful of if statements.
When I had a job writing mobile apps, I tried to "fight the good fight" by keeping our minimum version as low as possible, but everyone up the chain from me pressured us to increase it, especially software engineering, because it was "too hard" to maintain backward compatibility with older versions. Even though maintaining compatibility usually just meant a handful of if statements.
Huh, I don't think I have run into that very often, but I do tend to not go beyond 3 years old for Macs since work replaces them.
Even if apps require macos 14, it looks like it is supported on machines going back to 2018 for the most part:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/105113
I suspect that Macs will reach back to M1s for quite a while.
Even if apps require macos 14, it looks like it is supported on machines going back to 2018 for the most part:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/105113
I suspect that Macs will reach back to M1s for quite a while.
This is a huge problem if you use heavily apps and must use the most recent version. I've got a 6+ year old iPad pro that just works...I haven't noticed any apps saying I can't install them, although I guess it is still supported by iOS's latest version.
>I feel like iPhones and iPads receive updates for what seems like an industry-leading amount of time.
If we're talking about OSs alone, Windows wins. MacOS/iOS second. Android dead last on average (but it's much better now on some new phones).
You can easily run Windows on a PC from 2010 (at least on a desktop PC with a good CPU), getting updates well into the 2030s...
If we're talking about OSs alone, Windows wins. MacOS/iOS second. Android dead last on average (but it's much better now on some new phones).
You can easily run Windows on a PC from 2010 (at least on a desktop PC with a good CPU), getting updates well into the 2030s...
That’s an apples to oranges comparison (comparing a desktop PC with devices). Desktops last forever. You should be comparing to a 10 year old Dell laptop running latest Windows or a Samsung Galaxy S3 running the latest android.
Windows PCs tend to slow down. I had a Dell 530s that I used for 10 years but midway Windows got too slow. I switched to Linux and it extended its life for another 5 years. It’s still quite usable under Linux but I moved on.
Apple devices are guaranteed 7 years of support. That’s not bad.
Windows PCs tend to slow down. I had a Dell 530s that I used for 10 years but midway Windows got too slow. I switched to Linux and it extended its life for another 5 years. It’s still quite usable under Linux but I moved on.
Apple devices are guaranteed 7 years of support. That’s not bad.
> ...a 10 year old Dell laptop running latest Windows
Not Dell but Lenovo and not Windows but Linux but for the rest the comparison is just fine to me. If it were not for the switch to 64 bits I'd still be using a 19 year old IBM Thinkpad T42p - I have three of them - daily. I still use them but the things are hampered by their 32 bits Pentium M CPUs. The keyboard and screen still beats whatever other notebook I've tried though...
Is anyone here still running a 2005 Apple laptop? That'd be a PowerBook G4?
> ...or a Samsung Galaxy S3 running the latest android.
I'm using one of those, a Galaxy SIIIneo running Android 11 - not the latest but not out of date either. It actually works quite well for a 10 year old phone, the battery easily lasts for a week with occasional use (and it is user-replaceable when the need arrives). Of course it is not running a Samsung Android distribution, those stopped somewhere around Android 4.4 on this model if I'm not mistaken. No, it runs LineageOS 18.1 with OTA updates, the last update was about a month ago.
So yes, Apple does offer longer support for its hardware than many other vendors. They are outclassed though by the longevity of AOSP-derived distributions like LineageOS on mobile and by Linux distributions on PC-type hardware - which includes Apple hardware, I'm typing this on a "late 2009 27" iMac" running Debian. The thing has been out of support by Apple for quite a while with MacOS 10.13 'High Sierra' being the last supported version. I managed to get 10.15 'Catalina' running on it but that is where it stops. It has no problems whatsoever running Debian 'Sid' (the 'unstable' latest version which in practice is not all that unstable, really) and will keep on doing so for the forthcoming years.
Not Dell but Lenovo and not Windows but Linux but for the rest the comparison is just fine to me. If it were not for the switch to 64 bits I'd still be using a 19 year old IBM Thinkpad T42p - I have three of them - daily. I still use them but the things are hampered by their 32 bits Pentium M CPUs. The keyboard and screen still beats whatever other notebook I've tried though...
Is anyone here still running a 2005 Apple laptop? That'd be a PowerBook G4?
> ...or a Samsung Galaxy S3 running the latest android.
I'm using one of those, a Galaxy SIIIneo running Android 11 - not the latest but not out of date either. It actually works quite well for a 10 year old phone, the battery easily lasts for a week with occasional use (and it is user-replaceable when the need arrives). Of course it is not running a Samsung Android distribution, those stopped somewhere around Android 4.4 on this model if I'm not mistaken. No, it runs LineageOS 18.1 with OTA updates, the last update was about a month ago.
So yes, Apple does offer longer support for its hardware than many other vendors. They are outclassed though by the longevity of AOSP-derived distributions like LineageOS on mobile and by Linux distributions on PC-type hardware - which includes Apple hardware, I'm typing this on a "late 2009 27" iMac" running Debian. The thing has been out of support by Apple for quite a while with MacOS 10.13 'High Sierra' being the last supported version. I managed to get 10.15 'Catalina' running on it but that is where it stops. It has no problems whatsoever running Debian 'Sid' (the 'unstable' latest version which in practice is not all that unstable, really) and will keep on doing so for the forthcoming years.
BTW, I just checked and found that LineageOS 20.0 - i.e. Android 13 - is also available for the Samsung SIII neo. Since 18.1 - Android 11 - runs fine for me I see no need to update the thing but if I wanted to, I could. It looks like Android 14 (the current version, released last October) will become available as well. I suspect the limited amount of RAM (1.5 GB) in this device will eventually put a stop to supporting newer Android versions but for now the ball is still rolling.
Have you ever had a ThinkPad?
I still have a couple old iPhone 7s that work just fine as basic phones that I don't care if I lose them or they are stolen.
The only issue I'm seeing is the iOS updates. Some apps can't be downloaded on iOS 13 any more.
The only issue I'm seeing is the iOS updates. Some apps can't be downloaded on iOS 13 any more.
The Apple upgrade treadmill is an immense transfer of wealth if you trade your old device in so it can be sold on the second-hand market. Used iPhones are a great way for nonrich people to get a decent phone at a low fraction of the price of a new one (with a high fraction of a new one’s functionality).
For me, the nice thing about buying a used 12 Pro Max for something like $250 is that I get a decent device while not having to worry much about it getting destroyed or lost.
I'm an iOS developer and try to upgrade every year using the Apple upgrade plan.
Last year I couldn't. Their website just wouldn't let me, with an unspecified error. Other people with similar errors online found no way of fixing it, even after talking to customer service.
It's possible I could have resolved the issue with a phone call, but instead I just dealt with having the phone a little longer. Now I'll own it and have another test device.
Last year I couldn't. Their website just wouldn't let me, with an unspecified error. Other people with similar errors online found no way of fixing it, even after talking to customer service.
It's possible I could have resolved the issue with a phone call, but instead I just dealt with having the phone a little longer. Now I'll own it and have another test device.
it's not just Apple devices, i'm still using my Pixel 6 Pro (launched in 2021). i used to upgrade every other year but these days the phones last longer without slowing down and everything else went up in prices. i see no compelling reason to upgrade (no significant camera upgrade or features worth upgrading for).
This isn't hard. The American middle class is disappearing.
Or the devices are just lasting longer.
Im personally upgrading when iOS has reached end of life for my device. Currently on an 11 Pro Max and there aren’t any features I’m missing in my day to day.
Plus the current Pro Max equivalent costs almost a month worth of average salary here so no wonder people are upgrading less frequently.
Plus the current Pro Max equivalent costs almost a month worth of average salary here so no wonder people are upgrading less frequently.
It's not that I'm uninterested in upgrading; I have the budget, and the interest. It's that Apple don't offer the products I want anymore.
I only upgrade my iPhone when there's a new touch ID model. I have no idea how large this segment is, but it's >1. If Apple kill off touch ID entirely, they'll lose me as a phone customer.
My primary desktop development machine is still a 10-core 2017 iMac Pro. At EOFY every year since 2021 I've checked for a 27" or larger iMac or iMac Pro with Apple silicon. No such product, no sale. The Studio is a nope; the physical ergonomics and convenience of a single-unit workstation matter too much.
I only upgrade my iPhone when there's a new touch ID model. I have no idea how large this segment is, but it's >1. If Apple kill off touch ID entirely, they'll lose me as a phone customer.
My primary desktop development machine is still a 10-core 2017 iMac Pro. At EOFY every year since 2021 I've checked for a 27" or larger iMac or iMac Pro with Apple silicon. No such product, no sale. The Studio is a nope; the physical ergonomics and convenience of a single-unit workstation matter too much.
I think the "they just don't make products for me anymore" realization is just part of getting older. This happens with everything, from phones to computers, to appliances, to movies and music, to cars... at some age we just stop being in the target market for mainstream products. I've really cut my spending back as I got older, simply because the things I want aren't getting made, and the things that are for sale I don't want.
I still miss the old Pixel fingerprint sensor on the back of the phone. Perfect place to put it.
I'm still on an SE2 (April 2020) and plan to stay here until an SE4 releases. It's still completely fine for everything.
I'd probably still be on an original SE, but the battery was poor and I broke the screen so it was easier to just upgrade then replace everything.
I'd probably still be on an original SE, but the battery was poor and I broke the screen so it was easier to just upgrade then replace everything.
For many years, I was one of Apple's highest-end customers. I needed the fastest machines they offered for the workloads I threw at them. I made music in Logic Pro with a zillion plugin instruments and effects and I ran a ton of apps with a ton of open windows when I wasn't doing that. I always bought the PowerMacs and then Mac Pro and eventually the iMac Pro when Apple painted themselves into a thermal corner with the Mac Pro.
I bought a MacBook Pro M1 Max in 2021 and started using it as my primary machine driving external Studio Displays. It's the first computer I've ever owned that doesn't feel the least bit slow as I approach the three year mark. I've been asking myself when I think I'll upgrade and I truly don't know; probably not before some incredible new software feature isn't available on this hardware. I used to replace machines when the three year AppleCare coverage expired or soon after. I can't see that happening any longer.
To some degree, this isn't even about Apple Silicon (though that sure helps). Even my iMac Pro with Xeon processor was approaching a point where I'd have got to this milestone eventually. Apple Silicon accelerated the jump by a good margin. I have no doubt I'd be able to tell the difference if I got an M4 laptop whenever they arrive, but I'd struggle to justify it to myself. (I should mention, in fairness, that I've been on a hiatus from making music since partway through the pan and that undoubtedly makes a difference. But even then, I think the game has changed, at least for me.)
I'll keep upgrading my iPhones on a much more regular basis because there's still substantial improvements that I can notice and appreciate (improved displays, cameras, industrial design, etc). I don't think that's going to be the case with my Macs any longer. This will likely be the oldest computer I've ever had as primary when it gets replaced, and I think by a large margin. It's a strange place to be after decades of computing on the bleeding edge.
I bought a MacBook Pro M1 Max in 2021 and started using it as my primary machine driving external Studio Displays. It's the first computer I've ever owned that doesn't feel the least bit slow as I approach the three year mark. I've been asking myself when I think I'll upgrade and I truly don't know; probably not before some incredible new software feature isn't available on this hardware. I used to replace machines when the three year AppleCare coverage expired or soon after. I can't see that happening any longer.
To some degree, this isn't even about Apple Silicon (though that sure helps). Even my iMac Pro with Xeon processor was approaching a point where I'd have got to this milestone eventually. Apple Silicon accelerated the jump by a good margin. I have no doubt I'd be able to tell the difference if I got an M4 laptop whenever they arrive, but I'd struggle to justify it to myself. (I should mention, in fairness, that I've been on a hiatus from making music since partway through the pan and that undoubtedly makes a difference. But even then, I think the game has changed, at least for me.)
I'll keep upgrading my iPhones on a much more regular basis because there's still substantial improvements that I can notice and appreciate (improved displays, cameras, industrial design, etc). I don't think that's going to be the case with my Macs any longer. This will likely be the oldest computer I've ever had as primary when it gets replaced, and I think by a large margin. It's a strange place to be after decades of computing on the bleeding edge.
This pattern isn't unique to Apple computers. I upgraded my 4th gen Intel machine to a 14th gen last years (mobo finally crapped out), and it's by far the most underwhelming upgrade I've ever done. Sure it's faster some of the time, but in general use (not compiling or encoding) it doesn't feel much different. I remember going from a 100MHz 486 to a 300MHz AMD K6 in my youth, and then to 900MHz Tbird. That was some upgrades you could feel!
Upgrades definitely used to be felt more readily. Back through the late 90s and early 2000s, on my track of 200Mhz 603ev → 400Mhz G3 → 1Ghz G4 → 2Ghz G5 → 2.66Ghz i5 750, each was substantial, especially during the latter half.
The iMac Pro, while very noticeably slower than my M1 series machines, is still respectable. Reasonably snappy, quiet, and of course the display is great.
It still runs the current macOS, but I'm sure that's changing soon. When that happens I might downgrade mine to Mojave and use it as an offline-only "zen pod" machine for creative work.
It still runs the current macOS, but I'm sure that's changing soon. When that happens I might downgrade mine to Mojave and use it as an offline-only "zen pod" machine for creative work.
Thing is: Did I really miss out on the mobile ecosystem in the last years? There are apps, most of them run fine or fine-ish. The biggest problem are lazy developers using non native toolkits. Games, obviously are another problem, but I’m more of a puzzle gamer. The biggest advance was photography but since I couldn’t integrate photography in my life in the last 15 years I don’t think I will now. Whenever I look at newer iPhones, I don’t really feel huge FOMO. What are the mobile use cases to always upgrade to the newest one?
(Maybe because I’m primary a Mac user and the iPhone is more of an appendix to that.)