How long does Apple support Mac firmware?(eclecticlight.co)
eclecticlight.co
How long does Apple support Mac firmware?
https://eclecticlight.co/2024/08/06/how-long-does-apple-support-mac-firmware/
73 comments
Anyone that wants Linux on a laptop should support Linux OEMs, instead of expecting other vendors to make life easy to Linux users, while increasing their sales for their own platforms.
They don't sell to many countries (mine included) unless you're willing to:
- lose warranty, practically speaking
- pay through the nose for shipping through a middleman
Most companies ignore small markets because they won't sell enough to justify the costs. And it's not just Linux vendors.
Very large brands attract enough interest from Joe six-pack to sustain such import volume that you can go and buy a MacBook or a Lenovo for somewhat reasonable money (still much more expensive than in the US or the EU).
- lose warranty, practically speaking
- pay through the nose for shipping through a middleman
Most companies ignore small markets because they won't sell enough to justify the costs. And it's not just Linux vendors.
Very large brands attract enough interest from Joe six-pack to sustain such import volume that you can go and buy a MacBook or a Lenovo for somewhat reasonable money (still much more expensive than in the US or the EU).
System76 is who I would shout out to considering they maintain their own Ubuntu based distro, and their own Desktop Environment for it. I'm sure there's others, but S76's POP OS has been my main Linux distro for a few years now. Things just work. I hope more people buy their hardware and they can devote more resources to making POP OS (and by side effect) and Linux in general better for us all.
If there was a tablet with:
- Wacom EMR
- touch
- high resolution display
- decent performance
- decent battery life
I'd like to know of it so I can buy one --- the nearest replacement I could find for my Samsung Galaxy Book 12 was a Book 3 Pro 360, and it has me contemplating giving up the battery and high resolution and getting a Raspberry Pi 5 and Wacom One 13 Gen 2 touch screen.
- Wacom EMR
- touch
- high resolution display
- decent performance
- decent battery life
I'd like to know of it so I can buy one --- the nearest replacement I could find for my Samsung Galaxy Book 12 was a Book 3 Pro 360, and it has me contemplating giving up the battery and high resolution and getting a Raspberry Pi 5 and Wacom One 13 Gen 2 touch screen.
So are the compromises of Year of Desktop Linux.
Those of us that rather not deal with those issues any longer, buy Apple, Google or Microsoft, and run GNU/Linux on a VM, via whatever mechanisms they make available.
However buying Apple, Google or Microsoft, and then complaining they don't make hardware to run GNU/Linux natively on it, what is one naively expecting them to do otherwise?
Those of us that rather not deal with those issues any longer, buy Apple, Google or Microsoft, and run GNU/Linux on a VM, via whatever mechanisms they make available.
However buying Apple, Google or Microsoft, and then complaining they don't make hardware to run GNU/Linux natively on it, what is one naively expecting them to do otherwise?
They could stop forcing a windows license down your throat that you basically cannot get rid of and are forced to pay regardless of whether you're going to use it. That would be a logical and good first step. We've been asking this for two decades and have been ignored.
Also, I haven't seen a single seasoned Linux desktop user that cares about the "year of the Linux desktop". It's a meme that's only being repeated by Mac or windows users that "will switch over right away when this particular thing gets fixed", always finding another reason to talk themselves from doing it for basically decades, or well known FOSS haters such as yourself.
Also, I haven't seen a single seasoned Linux desktop user that cares about the "year of the Linux desktop". It's a meme that's only being repeated by Mac or windows users that "will switch over right away when this particular thing gets fixed", always finding another reason to talk themselves from doing it for basically decades, or well known FOSS haters such as yourself.
I use UNIX since introduction to Xenix in 1993, plenty of commercial UNIX flavours, started with GNU/Linux in 1995's Summer, lost count on the distributions tried since 1995, subscribed to Linux Journal since it went out of print, have a good Walnut Creek CD-ROM collection.
When I really want Linux on a box, I care to find a OEM that makes it possible, regardless if the distribution is specific to them, like on Raspberry PI's case.
When I really want Linux on a box, I care to find a OEM that makes it possible, regardless if the distribution is specific to them, like on Raspberry PI's case.
I'd be satisfied with a documented and workable and reliable way to root an Android tablet and run Linux on it.
I don't "expect" them to, I just wanted the same level of Linux-mostly-working as I had with previous Intel Macs. If I had realized that the T2 would make this harder I might not have purchased it.
A matter of luck from the people reverse engineering the hardware.
Yeah of course.
Just to be 100% clear, I'm genuinely not actually trying to condemn anyone here; I don't really blame Apple for not making it super easy to install Linux, and I'm certainly not blaming people donating their time and effort for not working fast enough to make my life easier. So much FOSS is a labor of love and so I'm not entitled to anything from them as a result.
Just to be 100% clear, I'm genuinely not actually trying to condemn anyone here; I don't really blame Apple for not making it super easy to install Linux, and I'm certainly not blaming people donating their time and effort for not working fast enough to make my life easier. So much FOSS is a labor of love and so I'm not entitled to anything from them as a result.
I've gone back and forward on this. They obviously want to move on as quickly as possible (the local AI updates for example), but it's not clear how long T2 will get support - the last Intel Mac mini was still being sold new from Apple until 2023. Sure, they could still axe it, but hopefully they won't for another couple of versions (which would imply that other T2 Macs get some additional support).
Even then, you're getting Sequoia at least, a year of support for that, then another two (if memory serves) of patch(y) support.
Even then, you're getting Sequoia at least, a year of support for that, then another two (if memory serves) of patch(y) support.
I'm still using my Mid-2012 MacBook Pro as my main machine - it still runs great.
My wife's 2008 Mac still boots up just the same, just needs a new battery and charger, otherwise, it might be sluggish, but given how much faster things are now, it probably runs the same as it ever did.
That's an intel mac. They do run hotter but their Linux support is great!
>though the thermals on the i9 aren't great
Getting my work laptop upgraded from a 16-inch i9 to a 16-inch M2 Max has been a godsend to my ears. The fan noise was constant with an i9.
Getting my work laptop upgraded from a 16-inch i9 to a 16-inch M2 Max has been a godsend to my ears. The fan noise was constant with an i9.
The fan hasn't been too distracting for me, the thermal throttling has been much more annoying. In hindsight I wish I had gotten the i7.
This was interesting.
When reading something like this I can’t help but wonder what the big PC makers do, but figuring that out seems like it would be pretty daunting given the large number of models even a single vendor makes.
Having so few models, plus firmware updates in the OS, probably made figuring this out so much easier than it would be in PC land.
Also: poor 2019 iMac. It’s a nice model but came out right before the Apple Silicon transition. It’s lifetime was never going to be what it could have been.
When reading something like this I can’t help but wonder what the big PC makers do, but figuring that out seems like it would be pretty daunting given the large number of models even a single vendor makes.
Having so few models, plus firmware updates in the OS, probably made figuring this out so much easier than it would be in PC land.
Also: poor 2019 iMac. It’s a nice model but came out right before the Apple Silicon transition. It’s lifetime was never going to be what it could have been.
> wonder what the big PC makers do
Just some anecdotal evidence:
- Dell XPS 13 from 2014 was getting bios updates until 2019 when I sold it.
- Asus AM4 motherboard was getting updates for 4 years. Mainly for new CPU models.
- 1 year old AM5 motherboard from gigabyte has to be used with original firmware, newer is quite unstable.
- Minisforum miniPC gets about 1 year of updates. Firmware download is via Mediafire (file sharing service). There are no downloads for 3 years old device.
I do not thibg bios is too big issue, most things like CPU vulnerabilities are patched in linux.
Just some anecdotal evidence:
- Dell XPS 13 from 2014 was getting bios updates until 2019 when I sold it.
- Asus AM4 motherboard was getting updates for 4 years. Mainly for new CPU models.
- 1 year old AM5 motherboard from gigabyte has to be used with original firmware, newer is quite unstable.
- Minisforum miniPC gets about 1 year of updates. Firmware download is via Mediafire (file sharing service). There are no downloads for 3 years old device.
I do not thibg bios is too big issue, most things like CPU vulnerabilities are patched in linux.
> CPU vulnerabilities
These are another source of obselence. Intel generally sets an "End of Servicing Updates" date at seven years post-launch.
These are another source of obselence. Intel generally sets an "End of Servicing Updates" date at seven years post-launch.
>Also: poor 2019 iMac. It’s a nice model but came out right before the Apple Silicon transition. It’s lifetime was never going to be what it could have been.
I find it interesting that seemingly every other vendor does their best to maintain backwards compatability or at least some support.
Apple: Nope, go buy our new stuff $$$ :)
Apple fans: okay :)
I find it interesting that seemingly every other vendor does their best to maintain backwards compatability or at least some support.
Apple: Nope, go buy our new stuff $$$ :)
Apple fans: okay :)
That model is still supported by the current and next OS versions. In the end we're talking about having ~7 years of updates vs ~10.
(Sent from my Intel NUC that stopped getting GPU drivers after a year.)
(Sent from my Intel NUC that stopped getting GPU drivers after a year.)
Appropriate username, but unfair take.
I'll promptly admit my bias: I've been on macs as my daily driver for 20 years. But that's for a reason — the hardware is great, the software is good, and the support for old hardware is honestly amazing. I do lots and lots of hand-me-downs to parents, siblings, the spouse, and lots of those devices still work, with the latest OSes, years and years down the line. I have a friend that just replaced an old 13" Macbook that was 12 years old and working great.
Find me a company that does that and is as good in terms of build quality and I'll be immediately interested.
I'll promptly admit my bias: I've been on macs as my daily driver for 20 years. But that's for a reason — the hardware is great, the software is good, and the support for old hardware is honestly amazing. I do lots and lots of hand-me-downs to parents, siblings, the spouse, and lots of those devices still work, with the latest OSes, years and years down the line. I have a friend that just replaced an old 13" Macbook that was 12 years old and working great.
Find me a company that does that and is as good in terms of build quality and I'll be immediately interested.
It's perfectly fair. When you live by the sword of proprietary and industry-unsupported protocols, you die by that sword as well. Apple products have faced this time and time again, with version updates killing 32-bit program support or pushing the OpenGL depreciation line.
Because Apple doesn't have to compete on merits (as your comment points out), they just have to convince you to upgrade on a regular basis. Their routine depreciation and deliberate gimping of old hardware is evidence that Apple does not want you to keep using their devices once they tell you its time to stop.
Because Apple doesn't have to compete on merits (as your comment points out), they just have to convince you to upgrade on a regular basis. Their routine depreciation and deliberate gimping of old hardware is evidence that Apple does not want you to keep using their devices once they tell you its time to stop.
>the support for old hardware is honestly amazing
I disagree. As an example, Macs stuck on 11 (Big Sur) stopped getting updates in 2023.[1] That includes Macs released until ~2014-2015, which are still usable in terms of hardware.[2]
I wouldn't call that amazing at all.
[1]https://endoflife.date/macos
[2]https://support.apple.com/en-us/103260
I disagree. As an example, Macs stuck on 11 (Big Sur) stopped getting updates in 2023.[1] That includes Macs released until ~2014-2015, which are still usable in terms of hardware.[2]
I wouldn't call that amazing at all.
[1]https://endoflife.date/macos
[2]https://support.apple.com/en-us/103260
They did provide security updates even after eol same goes for the first iPhone SE which is over 10 years of now. For feature updates you might be right…
Same with the 2019 16" MacBook Pro with Intel i9 processor. I switched to a M1 Max 16" MacBook in 2022 and use the Intel one with Windows 10 installed on Bootcamp.
>Also: poor 2019 iMac. It’s a nice model but came out right before the Apple Silicon transition.
There was nothing stopping Apple from supporting it far longer. It's not like they're a start-up short on cash with limited budgets. It's their own HW for Pete's sake, not someone else's like Microsoft or Linux has to.
There was nothing stopping Apple from supporting it far longer. It's not like they're a start-up short on cash with limited budgets. It's their own HW for Pete's sake, not someone else's like Microsoft or Linux has to.
It's still supported.
Probably not for long. 2017s stopped being supported last year 2019s are on the chopping block.
Apple's hardware support timelines are 5 years from last sale date for "vintage" status, and 7 years for "obsolete" status. One should probably assume that firmware support especially and possibly software support will follow similar timelines.
Slightly related to this is a software called OpenCore Legacy Patcher [1]. It allows people to install newer macOS versions on older hardware. I don't know if the firmware updates are included though, maybe they aren't.
I recently installed High Sierra on a MacBook Pro from 2011, and it works flawlessly.
[1] https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/
[1] https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/
Interesting! I have a 2014 MBP that runs a pretty ambient version of Band Camp. I'll see if there's anything I can do to remedy that!
AFAIK, installing/updating unsupported OS versions via OCLP doesn't update firmware. It certainly hasn't on my MacPro6,1 running Sonoma (have 478, current is 481); the workaround is a PITA (Monterey only updates firmware if installed on the internal SSD, so I either need to buy a spare or backup / clean install / restore) and probably not worth the trouble.
Other than this, OCLP + Sonoma on the MacPro6,1 is fantastic.
Other than this, OCLP + Sonoma on the MacPro6,1 is fantastic.
One of my low-end test Macs is a 2012, 11-inch Air.
Still works great, but is capped at Catalina. I’ll have to check when it got its last update.
I use it as a Zoom machine, and it still runs the latest version of that app, just fine.
I have a first-gen iPhone Xs Max, that I’m using to test my software on iOS18. I test iOS16, on an iPhone 8 Plus. I also have an original SE, but it’s capped at iOS15, so I don’t test against it, anymore (except when I want to test really tight screen layouts). Apple kit does tend to last.
Still works great, but is capped at Catalina. I’ll have to check when it got its last update.
I use it as a Zoom machine, and it still runs the latest version of that app, just fine.
I have a first-gen iPhone Xs Max, that I’m using to test my software on iOS18. I test iOS16, on an iPhone 8 Plus. I also have an original SE, but it’s capped at iOS15, so I don’t test against it, anymore (except when I want to test really tight screen layouts). Apple kit does tend to last.
Maybe OpenCore could help: https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/MODELS.ht...
That is a cool project.
I wouldn't use it for testing my software, though, as it's a bit too "edgy" for that, but it is a great way to keep your old kit going.
I wouldn't use it for testing my software, though, as it's a bit too "edgy" for that, but it is a great way to keep your old kit going.
Great article and nice blog layout.
8 years seems like long enough. Did you actually buy 40 macbooks from different eras?
8 years seems like long enough. Did you actually buy 40 macbooks from different eras?
He makes an app that tells you if your system is on all of the current patches so he presumably already had the data.
The data was probably extracted from the macOS update files.
After a year or so, I'd expect firmware stability to level off.
Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), new security issues tend to be found over a device's lifespan.
I'm beginning to think that "security" is just a way to make you throw out your perfectly good computer sooner.
Wait till you hear about the specter/meltdown speed performance patches.
I doubt I'll be getting updates of any kind on x86 Macbooks for much longer, so I wanted to install NixOS on here like I had on previous Macs, and I did manage to get it installed, but the support for the T2 hardware is, in my opinion, not usable for daily use. Very basic stuff like suspending doesn't work, the audio sounds like crap, sometimes booting simply doesn't work, and the discrete graphics card doesn't work.
I don't blame the community for this, obviously. These are hard problems, and Apple worked pretty hard to make it difficult to actually sideload other operating systems on here. It's annoying that in another year or so, this computer might become increasingly less secure, because updates will cease.
I should probably just buy a Framework at this point and sell this Mac while it still has some street value.