QWERTY-Flip: The better keyboard layout your fingers already know(nick-gravgaard.com)
nick-gravgaard.com
QWERTY-Flip: The better keyboard layout your fingers already know
https://nick-gravgaard.com/qwerty-flip/
118 comments
I thought about trying Dvorak over 30 years ago but quickly discovered it is a wasted effort since everywhere I go there are QWERTY keyboards. What am I suppose to do, carry a Dvorak keyboard around with me (with the right adapters as well)?
I’ve been Colemak for 11 years.
For quick things (<5 min) I can still type decently on QWERTY.
For longer I just set the OS to Colemak and then back again when I’m done. Win/Mac has Colemak and Dvorak built in. I hope most linux distros do as well.
Assuming you don’t need to look at the keys.
For quick things (<5 min) I can still type decently on QWERTY.
For longer I just set the OS to Colemak and then back again when I’m done. Win/Mac has Colemak and Dvorak built in. I hope most linux distros do as well.
Assuming you don’t need to look at the keys.
Do you.. look at your keyboard while typing? I don’t even have letters on my keyboard.
I was about to write a similar comment, but I think they're referring to other people's keyboards.
I’m still confused. The letters being in the wrong location doesn’t affect me in the slightest. My laptop is printed with QWERTY keys, and I type on it with DVORAK. What’s the issue?
And if I need to use someone else’s computer I just type in QWERTY. It’s not like I forgot how.
And if I need to use someone else’s computer I just type in QWERTY. It’s not like I forgot how.
Can I install bunch of low level keyboard handling stuffs from my GitHub repo to your laptop to get keyboard work for me? I need to Google something.
I think most of the common alternative keyboard layouts are available by default on Windows, Linux and Mac
If you wanted to do this, you could use a programmable keyboard like QMK. Physically toggle the switch and the keyboard would send to the QWERTY physical layout equivalent to the one you typed. This would enable fast switching and no faffing about with software configuration.
And we've come full circle back to the original
>"What am I suppose to do, carry a Dvorak keyboard around with me (with the right adapters as well)?"
point of the original post. Which is genuinely the only real answer if you have to interact with machines you can't customize to your liking, and is a bad answer.
>"What am I suppose to do, carry a Dvorak keyboard around with me (with the right adapters as well)?"
point of the original post. Which is genuinely the only real answer if you have to interact with machines you can't customize to your liking, and is a bad answer.
> And if I need to use someone else’s computer I just type in QWERTY. It’s not like I forgot how.
I think that's the sticking point; not everyone can/does keep 2 layouts in their head. My QWERTY is certainly weaker than my preferred layout.
I think that's the sticking point; not everyone can/does keep 2 layouts in their head. My QWERTY is certainly weaker than my preferred layout.
I forgot qwerty very quickly. I can do it at medium-speed when I looking at the keyboard, but it's not touch-typing
So does every OS have a simple and quick mechanism to switch keyboard interpretation? Is this practical?
Don't know about linux, but (left) alt-shift in windows does.
Only after you've set up the keyboard layouts. Most computers won't have your favourite layout set up and ready to go.
macOS has multiple ways to switch. Configurable keyboard shortcuts or you can keep an input picker in the status bar.
Laptops often force you to, given there's no real standard among them. Much as I love mine, the placement of FN and other special keys in a reduced area trips up my touch typing when I switch among them, especially when coding (when I use ctrl sequences more).
Yes. Some of the time.
I was in college a few years ago and it was pretty common to see portable mechanical keyboards...
I’ve typed Dvorak about 15 years. I just switch the keyboard layout on the other person’s computer if I’m going to do any significant typing and can’t use my laptop. (A rare need anymore.)
When you were considering learning in the 90s, this would’ve been harder to do, but that changed. It’s too bad you didn’t reconsider learning every decade or so!
When you were considering learning in the 90s, this would’ve been harder to do, but that changed. It’s too bad you didn’t reconsider learning every decade or so!
I tried several years ago, before mechanical keyboards were the norm, and most keyboards you couldn’t even swap keycaps around.
Anyway. I generally agree. Switching it extremely difficult. And logging in to a Dvorak Remote Desktop is insanely annoying.
Anyway. I generally agree. Switching it extremely difficult. And logging in to a Dvorak Remote Desktop is insanely annoying.
How is switching difficult? Most OS’ have it as an option in keyboard settings.
The biggest problem can be booting to single user/safe mode or entering disk encryption passphrase before the full OS is loaded. Or your keymap doesn't translate to running VMs inside your OS. I type in Dvorak, I've been meaning to try the workman layout. The solution is to have a keyboard you can program. Then the above minor inconveniences don't matter.
Is this really even practical?
This is what I've done on every PC I've used professionally since 2002. Tweak OS setting, start typing.
Mixing keyboard layouts works well on Windows 10+ or macOS. Remote Desktop problems were a thing with WIndows XP, but I can't remember having problems more recently.
Mixing keyboard layouts works well on Windows 10+ or macOS. Remote Desktop problems were a thing with WIndows XP, but I can't remember having problems more recently.
You are supposed to switch the keys mapping to dvorak...?
I came to a similar conclusion about trying to learn popular layouts. I was always somewhat curious, but on a few occasions I had shooting pains down the back of my right hand, and I couldn't type or mouse with it for days.
I looked at Colemak (and the Tarmak training layouts) which seemed unnecessarily complicated, so I made my own transitional layout. First keeping most of the keys on the 'same fingers' but not necessarily same column as Qwerty (the P and R swap hands and O changes finger):
The final layout I'm using is:
[0] https://github.com/qwickly-org/Qwickly [1] https://github.com/qwickly-org/QwickSteps
I looked at Colemak (and the Tarmak training layouts) which seemed unnecessarily complicated, so I made my own transitional layout. First keeping most of the keys on the 'same fingers' but not necessarily same column as Qwerty (the P and R swap hands and O changes finger):
Q W D F {P} Y U K L ;
A S E T G H N I {R}[O]
Z X C V B J M , .
The final layout I'm using is:
Q W U D P Z H Y L ,
A S E T G F N I R O
K X C V J B M ; .
[0] https://github.com/qwickly-org/Qwickly [1] https://github.com/qwickly-org/QwickSteps
I went through the entire process of learning Colemak-DH last year, and made sure to maintain my ability to type QWERTY. I would bring my reprogrammed HHKB to work every day, and switching between layouts at home to keep the skill. Eventually I realized that all the new layout did was add an extra layer of cognitive friction when it came to keyboard shortcuts. Now a year later I am back to just using QWERTY.
Glad I tried it, now I know I could do it all over with only a little bit of discomfort, but I never saw any of the oft lauded benefits of switching keyboard layouts. Maybe at 60-70WPM I am just not fast enough to notice improved efficiency, or my youthful joints have yet to decay enough to have pain from typing. Who knows.
Glad I tried it, now I know I could do it all over with only a little bit of discomfort, but I never saw any of the oft lauded benefits of switching keyboard layouts. Maybe at 60-70WPM I am just not fast enough to notice improved efficiency, or my youthful joints have yet to decay enough to have pain from typing. Who knows.
I looked into the Dvorak stuff about 20 years ago and apparently there weren't any real good studies showing Dvorak was that much better.
The studies showing Dvorak superiority apparently were never compared with qwerty users going through similar training, and when they did, the advantage disappeared.
Apparently, we do better if we train.
The studies showing Dvorak superiority apparently were never compared with qwerty users going through similar training, and when they did, the advantage disappeared.
Apparently, we do better if we train.
The benefit is not the speed but the reduced effort and fatigue as your fingers move much less with Dvorak (when typing English)
I’ve never had an issue with that. I spend more typing that thinking unlike a data entry person or someone who types all day long, my fingers get plenty of rest between using vim for everything and just being a developer.
It seems to mostly be a problem with home-row typists having to twist their wrists to hit some keys.
I'm self taught through online games like StarCraft and don't use the home row - my hands settle in a different location, I use the edges of the keyboard for positioning (mostly through peripheral vision rather than touch), and I use my elbows and shoulders in addition to my wrists to move across the keyboard. Don't have to stretch or twist my fingers and wrists into awkward positions that cause strain, never had the issues others describe, and so far no hint I'll develop them.
I'm self taught through online games like StarCraft and don't use the home row - my hands settle in a different location, I use the edges of the keyboard for positioning (mostly through peripheral vision rather than touch), and I use my elbows and shoulders in addition to my wrists to move across the keyboard. Don't have to stretch or twist my fingers and wrists into awkward positions that cause strain, never had the issues others describe, and so far no hint I'll develop them.
There was a big Libertarian propaganda effort against Dvorak around that time.
They hate it for the same reason they hate recycling and climate change. It's a very visible and popular example of markets not being perfect and needing regulation to perform better.
It's highly likely that your source was in economics rather than ergonomics.
They hate it for the same reason they hate recycling and climate change. It's a very visible and popular example of markets not being perfect and needing regulation to perform better.
It's highly likely that your source was in economics rather than ergonomics.
Do you have any source or further reading on this topic? The only thing I can readily find is you making similar comments on HN for the last decade, and I’d like to learn more.
https://personal.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html
Is the original paper that kicked it off, I think there was a few follow ups.
This wiki page has a snippet from a site talking about it that is no longer online:
https://wiki.c2.com/?TheFableOfTheKeys
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/dissent.html
edit to add:
https://reason.com/1996/06/01/typing-errors/
Vs
https://dvorak-keyboard.com/anti-dvorak/
Is the original paper that kicked it off, I think there was a few follow ups.
This wiki page has a snippet from a site talking about it that is no longer online:
https://wiki.c2.com/?TheFableOfTheKeys
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/dissent.html
edit to add:
https://reason.com/1996/06/01/typing-errors/
Vs
https://dvorak-keyboard.com/anti-dvorak/
Just yesterday I was thinking about making a switch. I was concinced that I was gonna switch to Dvorak. Today I'm very confused. Maybe workman as someone said here. But does it benefit other language typing or just english? If qwerty was made to slow down the typers, what about other languages like German, Russian. Did they do that too? I'm not gonna switch if I have to type with same layout in other languages.
It's a big decision
It's a big decision
If you have doubts, don't switch. It saves you a lot of trouble when you have to work on someone else's system.
Dvorak has the advantage of being supported on most operating systems, now, and possibly some decades into the future.
Note also that if you grew comfortable with asdf, hjkl, or Emacs key bindings (C-n, C-p, C-f, C-b), you'd have to unlearn some muscle memory there as well.
Source: am very happy Dvorak typist for more than 20 years. The initial two weeks, starting from the Beavis-and-Butthead lessons, gave me terrible headaches.
Dvorak has the advantage of being supported on most operating systems, now, and possibly some decades into the future.
Note also that if you grew comfortable with asdf, hjkl, or Emacs key bindings (C-n, C-p, C-f, C-b), you'd have to unlearn some muscle memory there as well.
Source: am very happy Dvorak typist for more than 20 years. The initial two weeks, starting from the Beavis-and-Butthead lessons, gave me terrible headaches.
Tried a couple of times to switch to Dvorak, the biggest blocker are the shortcuts. I'm also an avid vi user and I feel it's closer to impossible to use it with a different layout.
I tried to learn dvorak, and colemak, and both ended up requiring too much investment to be worth it. This is very tempting, even though I promised myself I'd stop messing with keyboard layouts
I’m not here to convince anyone as I could care less what layout you type in, but are you really saying a few days or weeks of typing slightly slower isn’t worth a lifetime of increased ergonomics and comfort?
> a lifetime of increased ergonomics and comfort
I've never felt any discomfort from qwerty, so, no, this business about increased ergonomics and comfort is a false promise to me.
I have, however, helped multiple people who thought they had problems in their hands and wrists who actually had problems in their necks and shoulders, and showing them diagrams of the brachial plexus nerves helped them eliminate their pain through posture changes.
I've never felt any discomfort from qwerty, so, no, this business about increased ergonomics and comfort is a false promise to me.
I have, however, helped multiple people who thought they had problems in their hands and wrists who actually had problems in their necks and shoulders, and showing them diagrams of the brachial plexus nerves helped them eliminate their pain through posture changes.
But there’s the constant switching cost any time you encounter a keyboard that is t yours
How often is that? And, what cost exactly? Just type in QWERTY. It’s just not a big deal.
I haven’t learned Dvorak, but I presume that doing so overwrites a lot of the muscle memory used for qwerty and it’s not like you retain full proficiency in the old layout.
Maybe it’s just me, but I find that I will frequently mistype switching between different warty keyboards (eg, standalone mechanical vs laptop)
Maybe it’s just me, but I find that I will frequently mistype switching between different warty keyboards (eg, standalone mechanical vs laptop)
I don't know how it works, but when I switched over (20+ years ago) I was dysfunctional in both qwerty and dvorak for a good couple of weeks if not a month, then slowly got the hang of it. I use qwerty now at work and dvorak at home, except that I've switched the main keyboard layout at home to qwerty and just use dvorak for programming and anything in a terminal (on linux), which is where I spend a lot of my time.
I can mentally switch over to dvorak and program for a while, mentally swap back, and type normally for other things. I mainly switched the default layout back to qwerty because I was tired of remapping all the keys in every game I play. Sometimes when I come into work on a Monday morning I'll type gibberish for a couple of sentences then mentally flip back to qwerty and be fine.
I can mentally switch over to dvorak and program for a while, mentally swap back, and type normally for other things. I mainly switched the default layout back to qwerty because I was tired of remapping all the keys in every game I play. Sometimes when I come into work on a Monday morning I'll type gibberish for a couple of sentences then mentally flip back to qwerty and be fine.
I almost exclusively use Colemak-DH and have 0 issues typing in QWERTY when I have to. I chalk it up to my phone keyboard still being in QWERTY so I get enough exposure from that to not forget the locations of the keys (it's certainly not as well retained as it used to be, I no longer remember the location of all the keys in QWERTY from memory). I do use a columnar split keyboard though (Moonlander) so it's possible the radical difference in how I use the keyboard helped to keep the muscle memory separate.
It's like driving stick vs automatic.
So, never?
I get your point in principle. I actually switched to Colemak in college, and it worked really well. Then I got a job doing IT support and it was a pain in the butt to keep switching every time I interacted with a customer laptop.
But now I remote work from home. I can’t remember the last time I touched a keyboard that wasn’t mine.
I get your point in principle. I actually switched to Colemak in college, and it worked really well. Then I got a job doing IT support and it was a pain in the butt to keep switching every time I interacted with a customer laptop.
But now I remote work from home. I can’t remember the last time I touched a keyboard that wasn’t mine.
I just gave the layout a quick spin, and it's indeed very easy to learn when coming from regular QWERTY, and it's almost eerie how much finger travel it saves. I may just go and switch to it. Thanks to the author!
(Apologies for not referencing Dvorak or Colemak in this comment)
(Apologies for not referencing Dvorak or Colemak in this comment)
I'm skeptical that this would be easy to learn. I haven't thought about what row certain keys are on for about 25 years. I imagine there would be a long period of frustrating typing and not being able to get things done as fast as you need, with constant corrections.
It's incredibly easy relative to Dvorak. Dvorak changes every single key across the whole keyboard and you have to relearn typing from scratch. This just changes a few keys, and when you "miss" you immediately know where the right one actually is, either directly above or directly below...super easy fix and the muscle memory will redevelop quickly.
As someone who can type on Dvorak, this is exactly what would happen. It doesn't matter that it isn't as radically different as qwerty->dvorak, you still have muscle memory for where everything is and now it's different. It's a bit like learning a new language. If you're going to change keyboard layouts, you might as well do it right and pick a better layout than this. I like Dvorak, but Colemak and Workman layouts are also well-regarded.
Sounds silly but the only change I do for the letter keys is inserting / (or whathaveyou) at [h] and shifting the [hjkl;] to the right. That way, right-hand fingers are resting at hjkl which makes vim-movement a lot more ergonomic.
Q W E R T Y U I O P
A S D F G / H J K L
Z X C V B N M , .
I learned to touch type Querty as a teen. Then about 35 years ago I switched to Dvorak figured everyone was going to do it. Turns out not many did. But I’m still happy I switched. It’s easy enough to add Dvorak as an input method to any OS. Only problem has been leaving it on a company computer and having my coworkers mystified when their login password doesn’t work :/
I did this as a prank a long time ago to a friend. He couldn’t log in, and I think it took us a while to figure out how to change it back without being able to log in. Or maybe he found the Dvorak mapping and logged in using Dvorak and changed it back.
Just learn dvorak or colemak - they're not hard to learn, have tons of benefits, and are readily available on all operating systems
Is there any evidence at all that they have tons of benefits? I thought there was research that said they were mostly myths.
Decades ago I learned dvorak and used it exclusively for about a year. I honestly felt no benefits. If anything it made things more of a pain in the ass because many common commands (e.g. Ctrl-C Ctrl-V) are where they are because of their locations on a qwerty keyboard. You can re-map shortcuts but I still find myself using devices that aren't my own often enough that I find it annoying.
I remember one funny instance where I had to remote desktop into a shared server, and I remapped to dvorak and forgot to change it back, and then when someone else remoted in they thought their keyboard was possessed.
Decades ago I learned dvorak and used it exclusively for about a year. I honestly felt no benefits. If anything it made things more of a pain in the ass because many common commands (e.g. Ctrl-C Ctrl-V) are where they are because of their locations on a qwerty keyboard. You can re-map shortcuts but I still find myself using devices that aren't my own often enough that I find it annoying.
I remember one funny instance where I had to remote desktop into a shared server, and I remapped to dvorak and forgot to change it back, and then when someone else remoted in they thought their keyboard was possessed.
If you are looking at only speed as a benefit, it’s debatable. For ergonomics, absolutely. Look at the hands of someone typing QWERTY, they’re almost bent in half longways for certain key combinations. DVORAK on the other hand allows your hands to stay flat and relaxed.
I will never return to QWERTY.
I will never return to QWERTY.
As someone who has occasional wrist pain and is fluent in both QWERTY and Dvorak, the latter is significantly less painful to type with when my pain is present. I believe that that indicates that it is less strenuous.
Could it be that you get less wrist pain because Dvorak switches things up rather than it being better overall? With mouse use I find that a different grip can alleviate pain not because it's easier on the wrist, but because it's just different from the way I normally use it.
It's possible, but given my experience seems unlikely - I spend the majority of my time using Dvorak, and very little time using QWERTY, so there's not much switching going on. Also, most typing effort models (e.g. carpalx[1]) put Dvorak as significantly lower effort than QWERTY.
I think it'd be more likely to be the switching effect if you were going between two similar-effort layouts (e.g. Dvorak and Colemak).
[1] https://mk.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives
I think it'd be more likely to be the switching effect if you were going between two similar-effort layouts (e.g. Dvorak and Colemak).
[1] https://mk.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives
[deleted]
>Could it be that you get less wrist pain because Dvorak switches things up rather than it being better overall?
No. It's because you don't have to do hand contortions with Dvorak the way you do with qwerty. If you want a demonstration, try typing "minimal" on both, and watch your hands carefully. On qwerty, it's almost all on one hand, and alternating between top and bottom rows. On Dvorak, it's alternating between hands (which is always better). You can see similar things with any English text of decent length: Dvorak makes you alternate between hands far better, and far more of your typing is on the home row (esp. since the vowels are all on the home row).
No. It's because you don't have to do hand contortions with Dvorak the way you do with qwerty. If you want a demonstration, try typing "minimal" on both, and watch your hands carefully. On qwerty, it's almost all on one hand, and alternating between top and bottom rows. On Dvorak, it's alternating between hands (which is always better). You can see similar things with any English text of decent length: Dvorak makes you alternate between hands far better, and far more of your typing is on the home row (esp. since the vowels are all on the home row).
But is that really good? I can increase my sensivity very high on my mouse, where I barely have to move the mouse. However, this does cause me more pain than low sensitivity instead. High sensitivity makes me move the mouse almost entirely with the wrist, where low sensitivity uses the wrist and forearm.
I don't know if the same applies to typing, but I can see a mechanism where it is.
I don't know if the same applies to typing, but I can see a mechanism where it is.
[deleted]
I learned Colemak in 6 months and I don’t regret it a bit. I don’t have scientific evidence for this, but with Colemak my fingers don’t move anymore most of the time, and when they do it’s a small extension to the upper or lower row. It’s like they are glued to the home row.
When I switch to Qwerty once a month, my fingers are jumping all over the place, and my hands take weird positions to reach those random keys due to them being scattered for every word.
It’s like Qwerty was created to be the most inefficient layout for the users with keys being all over the place for every word (not the fake news about slowing people who use typewriters, it’s really inefficient).
When I switch to Qwerty once a month, my fingers are jumping all over the place, and my hands take weird positions to reach those random keys due to them being scattered for every word.
It’s like Qwerty was created to be the most inefficient layout for the users with keys being all over the place for every word (not the fake news about slowing people who use typewriters, it’s really inefficient).
I kind of like the feeling of typing on a QWERTY board with my fingers all over the place. Maybe it’s keeping my fingers strong and limber. What if I switched to Colemak and my fingers atrophied?!
Either you’re joking or you don’t know that bad positions with a keyboard or mouse can break your hands (I’m thinking of carpal tunnel’s syndrome but I’m sure there is more).
Tongue in cheek. I’ve been using emacs with QWERTY coding fulltime for years. Hands doing fine. Just need good seating, monitor, keyswitch spring strength, and hand positioning. Cherry MX brown switches were exhausting.
I'm a longtime dvorak user. The shortcut issue is so bad I had to write software that makes the keyboard layout switch while ctrl/alt is held. I've used at least four different implementations of this, three I wrote myself:
https://github.com/kentonv/dvorak-qwerty
Maintaining this has been a big PITA though, and gets harder as operating systems increasingly don't want to support software intercepting keystrokes for security reasons.
I would not recommend learning dvorak, for this reason.
Colemak avoids this problem by leaving the most-important hotkeys where they are, so might be OK? But I haven't tried it, and I am not really sure how much benefit these alternative layouts really bring, TBH.
https://github.com/kentonv/dvorak-qwerty
Maintaining this has been a big PITA though, and gets harder as operating systems increasingly don't want to support software intercepting keystrokes for security reasons.
I would not recommend learning dvorak, for this reason.
Colemak avoids this problem by leaving the most-important hotkeys where they are, so might be OK? But I haven't tried it, and I am not really sure how much benefit these alternative layouts really bring, TBH.
This is interesting—my observations on Windows 10 (mostly with a layout arranged via MSKLC) have always been that it does some kind of QWERTY-on-Control thing which I'd actually like to turn off but never found out how to; my keyboard shortcut memory seems to indirect through keysyms in a way loosely symmetrical with how my Cinnamon FDO/Linux desktop handles things, rather than being position-based, with the exception of WASD-like game controls which are positional. Is the main difference with your utility that it handles Alt as well?
Hmm. I haven't actually used a Windows desktop for anything other than gaming in decades. Probably the last time I actually used my remapping tool on Windows was in the XP days. I guess it's possible that Windows 10+ now includes such functionality by default, but this would surprise me.
Why don't you modify the keyboard firmware so the layout switching and such happens on the keyboard, instead of intercepting things on the OS?
I set up my keyboards this way - it’s pretty trivial with layers in QMK and means my Dvorak setup is fully portable between computers.
That sounds way more painful TBH...
Not if you have a keyboard with easily reflashable and programmable firmware (such as the Moonlander). If the firmware has built in support for layers it becomes trivial as you can just have a QWERTY layer activate when you hold down ctrl etc (Moonlander also)
It's actually quite easy! Of course, I wrote my own firmware for the keyboard I use so I'm biased, but most mechanical keyboards out there support QMK/VIA these days which makes it quite easy to create custom layouts and "layers" that activate based on what modifier keys are pressed.
Creating that firmware was one of the most fun and satisfying projects I've worked on in a long time.
Creating that firmware was one of the most fun and satisfying projects I've worked on in a long time.
> many common commands (e.g. Ctrl-C Ctrl-V) are where they are because of their locations on a QWERTY keyboard
Is that a fact? I thought they were chosen because it's C for copy, X looks like a pair of scissors, and V looks like a downward arrow (for pressing what you're pasting down). Downward finger traversal (for X, C, and V) is worse than upward, which is worse than no traversal. If they were chosen for their location I'd expect S, D, and F to be used. Or perhaps J, K, and L. The only traversal that's necessary is to hit Ctrl with the opposite hand.
Is that a fact? I thought they were chosen because it's C for copy, X looks like a pair of scissors, and V looks like a downward arrow (for pressing what you're pasting down). Downward finger traversal (for X, C, and V) is worse than upward, which is worse than no traversal. If they were chosen for their location I'd expect S, D, and F to be used. Or perhaps J, K, and L. The only traversal that's necessary is to hit Ctrl with the opposite hand.
If the machine is accessed remotely, how can its own local keyboard settings affect other users?
Anecdotal, but back when I had my typing requirement at an Air Force Base which trained all the services for a specific technical task the trainer observed that they had _never_ had a person fail to type out (min. 50 WPM) who had facility with a Dvorak layout.
FWIW, the shortcut issue can be avoided with something like QMK, which supports fancy layers and modifiers, and it places all of that in your keyboard itself
Or Workman, which has advantages over both: https://workmanlayout.org/
I like Workman. With that and a keyboard that has many thumb buttons (Moonlander and Ergodox clone) my wrists are much happier.
I wouldn't recommend Dvorak - it was designed a very long time ago without computers in mind or the in-depth efficiency calculations we can do today.
I like Workman. With that and a keyboard that has many thumb buttons (Moonlander and Ergodox clone) my wrists are much happier.
I wouldn't recommend Dvorak - it was designed a very long time ago without computers in mind or the in-depth efficiency calculations we can do today.
What are the benefits, beyond retraining all my shortcut muscle memory?
Noone else can use your computer.
They already can't, I have a custom unlabeled qwerty keyboard.
I only know QWERTY, given an unlabeled QWERTY keyboard I'd be able to type. If you have a different layout, that's a huge group of people you'd add to your "They"...
I'd invite you to give it a shot:
https://www.stavros.io/posts/george-i-made-a-keyboard/first-...
https://www.stavros.io/posts/george-i-made-a-keyboard/first-...
I still think that what’s even sillier than QWERTY is the fact that the keys are angled up to the left on both sides. Sure this (sort of) makes sense for your right hand, but the left hand does not naturally fit the keys going in that direction.
I’ve considered moving to an ortholinear split keyboard [1] for this reason, but it seems like I’m so used to the “broken” way that it would take too long to retrain muscle memory at this point. The other downside is readjusting when needing to use a laptop keyboard.
I’m just ranting that they didn’t do standardize on something that made more sense a long time ago, instead of everyone being so locked into the broken way that there’s no going back at this point.
[1] https://ergodox-ez.com/
I’ve considered moving to an ortholinear split keyboard [1] for this reason, but it seems like I’m so used to the “broken” way that it would take too long to retrain muscle memory at this point. The other downside is readjusting when needing to use a laptop keyboard.
I’m just ranting that they didn’t do standardize on something that made more sense a long time ago, instead of everyone being so locked into the broken way that there’s no going back at this point.
[1] https://ergodox-ez.com/
The keyboard keys are staggered for historical reasons [1]. I always found it awkward moving my fingers diagonally instead of vertically. My typing experience improved dramatically moving to an ortholinear keyboard [2]. It helped my pinky RSI as well with the modifiers being on the thumb clusters.
[1] https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/40390/why-are-keyboar...
[2] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/adv360pro/
[1] https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/40390/why-are-keyboar...
[2] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/adv360pro/
I built a Dactyl style keyboard with a trackball on one side. It's split, ortholinear, and also "scooped". To be honest it took me a while to adjust but it was worth it. Switching back to the laptop keyboard is almost entirely a non issue—that muscle memory runs deep.
While I was at it I also tried learning Colmak but didn't stick with it. This flip layout seems worth a try for the low learning overhead.
While I was at it I also tried learning Colmak but didn't stick with it. This flip layout seems worth a try for the low learning overhead.
The ortholinearity is learnt extremely fast, less than a week. Do not worry about it. What takes time is the layout change.
This from my experience with a typematrix keyboard together with the daily use of a normal laptop keyboard.
This from my experience with a typematrix keyboard together with the daily use of a normal laptop keyboard.
I don't understand how Dvorak is supposed to be hard to learn. It took me 2 months to get from "where are the letters" to being able to touch type faster than I previously could. From the start you're typing words, not "asdf".
It's probably just me, but as soon as I started learning dvorak I was wrecked on both dvorak and qwerty. Kept trying to type qwerty on dvorak and when switching back dvorak in qwerty. Really confused my brain/muscle interface, I guess. It was a few weeks until I could type in both in a reasonable manner. Now, 20+ years later, they are both completely ingrained in my muscle memory and I could probably switch every other word if I had to.
Yeah, sdf jkl is way harder for me to wrap my head around than 'none hunt out the one ton nun'.
This is interesting. However, having a layout similar to what you already know makes it harder to have a clear mental separation between the two. It also makes it harder to use it as an excuse to learn proper touch typing.
This one has a definite advantage of not having to relabel the keys, as it shifts a whole row at a time. Makes learning easier.
>also makes it harder to use it as an excuse to learn proper touch typing.
Touch typing is stupid and pointless on qwerty keyboards. On a proper layout like Dvorak, touch typing makes sense because most of the keys you type are on the home row, but on qwerty, it's the opposite: you rarely use the home row keys, so resting your fingers there makes no sense.
Touch typing is stupid and pointless on qwerty keyboards. On a proper layout like Dvorak, touch typing makes sense because most of the keys you type are on the home row, but on qwerty, it's the opposite: you rarely use the home row keys, so resting your fingers there makes no sense.
I used to type dvorak for about 10 years. Ultimately all programs shortcuts (except a few, like i3wm) are designed with the assumption that you are using qwerty, as are all coworkers. So, eventually, I moved back.
I think there's a huge missed opportunity of learning keyboard layouts with a smartphone. You get labels for free, and it's much easier to learn how to manage 2 fingers than to manage 10 at once. But once you get proficient enough to touch type(not that touch), you can still map the muscle memory onto a physical keyboard and you will already be 80% done. The remaining 20% is locating the right key with the right finger, which will sort itself out once you start typing. I learned Dvorak this way.
I switched to Colemak dhm a while back and I'm really happy with it. I've been using a ZSA moonlander at home and at work, and it's subtle, but I can definitely tell that this layout is easier to use. It's especially great with this keyboard and its macros and layers.
My laptops are still QWERTY though, and it's not too hard to code switch. It didn't take me too long to learn the new layout, though there was a short awkward period where I was bad at typing regardless of layout.
My laptops are still QWERTY though, and it's not too hard to code switch. It didn't take me too long to learn the new layout, though there was a short awkward period where I was bad at typing regardless of layout.
I'm almost exactly the same.
Using ZSA Moonlander with Colemak-DH
- My programming layout: https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/Mvngb/eOWyK/1
- The basic Colmak-DH layout on a split keyboard: https://codepen.io/spartanatreyu/pen/XWBeyRd
---------------------------------
Switching from QWERTY to Colemak-DH only took a week (it's really easy to leave a diagram of the layout on the screen to learn faster). Then my WPM increased by about 10 each week until it hit equilibrium.
I can still easily type on qwerty too, no speed reduction.
How?
When I put my hands on my split keyboard (which moves my hands apart from each other) at work, my muscle memory just types in colmak-dh without me needing to think about it at all.
Then when I get back home and use my 10ish year old traditional mechanical keyboard, my muscle memory just types in qwerty without me needing to think either.
It's all about my arms being in a different position.
With no keyboard and just my hands on an empty table, when I put my hands together I can touch type the table in qwerty, then when I move my hands apart they touch type in colemak-dh.
I'm utterly convinced this is the reason why people can't type in more than one layout without affecting their wpm of their original layout: it's because their two muscle memories are fighting each other.
Getting a keyboard of a separate shape will instantly change things for people.
Using ZSA Moonlander with Colemak-DH
- My programming layout: https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/Mvngb/eOWyK/1
- The basic Colmak-DH layout on a split keyboard: https://codepen.io/spartanatreyu/pen/XWBeyRd
---------------------------------
Switching from QWERTY to Colemak-DH only took a week (it's really easy to leave a diagram of the layout on the screen to learn faster). Then my WPM increased by about 10 each week until it hit equilibrium.
I can still easily type on qwerty too, no speed reduction.
How?
When I put my hands on my split keyboard (which moves my hands apart from each other) at work, my muscle memory just types in colmak-dh without me needing to think about it at all.
Then when I get back home and use my 10ish year old traditional mechanical keyboard, my muscle memory just types in qwerty without me needing to think either.
It's all about my arms being in a different position.
With no keyboard and just my hands on an empty table, when I put my hands together I can touch type the table in qwerty, then when I move my hands apart they touch type in colemak-dh.
I'm utterly convinced this is the reason why people can't type in more than one layout without affecting their wpm of their original layout: it's because their two muscle memories are fighting each other.
Getting a keyboard of a separate shape will instantly change things for people.
This is so sensible, I am pleasantly appalled.
Along with the switch to Dvorak some decades ago, I remapped CapsLock to be an additional Ctrl, and I started using Emacs key bindings (C-n, C-p, C-f, C-b) instead of the arrow keys.
I'm still typing in Dvorak, but I'm almost sure that it's primarily the change of cursor keys that made my typing much more relaxed. It saves a lot on wrist travel.
However, I did send a lot of unintended print jobs to our office printer when Notepad didn't ask for confirmation after pressing C-p.
I'm still typing in Dvorak, but I'm almost sure that it's primarily the change of cursor keys that made my typing much more relaxed. It saves a lot on wrist travel.
However, I did send a lot of unintended print jobs to our office printer when Notepad didn't ask for confirmation after pressing C-p.
I’ve been thinking about a similar idea for years after studying how qwerty came to be.
FYI I once came across a very old “how to type manual” which said your fingers should rest on the top row. That explains a lot. And suggests why something like this makes a lot of sense — unfortunately manual memory is a PIA to change.
FYI I once came across a very old “how to type manual” which said your fingers should rest on the top row. That explains a lot. And suggests why something like this makes a lot of sense — unfortunately manual memory is a PIA to change.
Just use Norman or Workman if you are going to go through this effort.
Also, use a programmable keyboard, so you can use it wherever without having to jump through OS hoops.
Also, use a programmable keyboard, so you can use it wherever without having to jump through OS hoops.
Has anyone tried it without flipping the P and ;? I understand the reasoning, but having it be a symmetrical flip might be even that much easier to learn?
Or... you could just relax when you type and your skills will be applicable to more environments.
Is there an online tool that can let me try this keyboard layout?
We need to agree as a society to slowly transition to Dvorak or Colemak one key at a time over the next couple of decades. Every year we announce a new pair of keys which needs to be swapped, OSs roll out an update and people manually pry out the keys from their physical keyboards and swap them.
I've seen ways to migrate to Colemak that are like this. You can swap three keys, get used to it, swap some more.
Nowadays I use Workman [1] and put the arrow keys on the home row on a different layer (same locations as Vim).
[1] https://workmanlayout.org/