Ask HN: Is there no escape from working 9-5?
13 comments
It sounds like the crux of your question is, "How do I work less and still support my family?" I've not read the type of books you described. I also don't work 4 hours a week. I work a 9-5 with a 1 hour lunch, 5 days a week, building APIs for a small-to-medium sized credit union. So although I don't have an answer to your question, I do have some thoughts to share.
I've slowly become comfortable with the idea that as a backend web developer, I'm really just one of many. So no wonder I haven't landed that cushy remote job yet. There are many others who can do what I do, and at my current career level, most have more experience than I do. (Of course that will change over time).
So how do I get the dream job that I want? Obviously I can't get there by following this trajectory. I've been telling myself that I need to stand out from the crowd in some substantial way. The only way I can imagine doing that is to develop a niche skillset that is more sought after than the one I currently have. A lot of people can build APIs. So I need to make myself more valuable to bigger companies if I'm going to ever get the sweet remote position that I dream of having.
On an unrelated note, one of my best friends has almost the exact job you described. He's not a software engineer. He works in quality assurance, helping companies self-audit themselves so they're prepared if the FDA shows up to audit them. He makes over 6 figures, works from home for 2-3 hours in the morning. As long as he's available to answer emails and teams messages, he does whatever he wants on most days. Anytime I've asked him for his advice, he always tells me that he just "followed the money."
One more thought. I think as developers we get obsessed with building our technical skills. When in the longterm I think it's the people skills that matter. Also, there are a lot of jobs in tech and for big companies that don't involve traditional software development. Maybe the solution is to look elsewhere for opportunities. I'm saying this to myself as much as I am to you.
I've slowly become comfortable with the idea that as a backend web developer, I'm really just one of many. So no wonder I haven't landed that cushy remote job yet. There are many others who can do what I do, and at my current career level, most have more experience than I do. (Of course that will change over time).
So how do I get the dream job that I want? Obviously I can't get there by following this trajectory. I've been telling myself that I need to stand out from the crowd in some substantial way. The only way I can imagine doing that is to develop a niche skillset that is more sought after than the one I currently have. A lot of people can build APIs. So I need to make myself more valuable to bigger companies if I'm going to ever get the sweet remote position that I dream of having.
On an unrelated note, one of my best friends has almost the exact job you described. He's not a software engineer. He works in quality assurance, helping companies self-audit themselves so they're prepared if the FDA shows up to audit them. He makes over 6 figures, works from home for 2-3 hours in the morning. As long as he's available to answer emails and teams messages, he does whatever he wants on most days. Anytime I've asked him for his advice, he always tells me that he just "followed the money."
One more thought. I think as developers we get obsessed with building our technical skills. When in the longterm I think it's the people skills that matter. Also, there are a lot of jobs in tech and for big companies that don't involve traditional software development. Maybe the solution is to look elsewhere for opportunities. I'm saying this to myself as much as I am to you.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It is indeed people skills that matters the most. I, unfortunately, found out about this too late. I didn't keep any connections, nor I posses good people skills. I was focusing too much on tech my whole life. Not that I can't change it, but it is what it is.
> is there no escape from 9-5 as a concept?
There is absolutely an escape from that as a concept, but it involves a tradeoff: if you're willing to live on a reduced income, you can gain more time not working.
Also, as you've noticed, being self-employed means you will be working more, not less. The wins of self-employment are other things, not the ability to work less.
> Are all these books about working 2 hours a week while making millions, are just BS?
Unequivocally yes. There are a handful of people who've pulled that off (and they aren't the ones writing those books), but the odds of you being one of them are so low as be approximately zero, in part because it involves a whole lot of pure luck.
There is absolutely an escape from that as a concept, but it involves a tradeoff: if you're willing to live on a reduced income, you can gain more time not working.
Also, as you've noticed, being self-employed means you will be working more, not less. The wins of self-employment are other things, not the ability to work less.
> Are all these books about working 2 hours a week while making millions, are just BS?
Unequivocally yes. There are a handful of people who've pulled that off (and they aren't the ones writing those books), but the odds of you being one of them are so low as be approximately zero, in part because it involves a whole lot of pure luck.
My question wasn't clear enough I'm afraid. It's not that I don't want to work, it's more about the fact that I don't want to participate in meaningless rituals. There are absolutely zero reasons to have the 9-5. Software can be written also from 8 to 10, and from 4 to 8, but for some reason the entire world has gone mad and married the 9-5. On top of that, nobody really writes code for 8 hours. So instead of the 1-3 hours that I waste in a corporate world for meaningless "cooler talks", I could spend with my family, or workout. But no, I need to conform to 9-5.
I misunderstood based on your comments about freelancing. It sounded like you found it unacceptable that instead of 9-5, freelancing means you'd be working longer hours.
If you freelance, you can work on whatever schedule suits you best. Outside of the occasional meeting, you don't have to even be awake from 9-5 if you don't want to.
If you freelance, you can work on whatever schedule suits you best. Outside of the occasional meeting, you don't have to even be awake from 9-5 if you don't want to.
Indeed, its a trap. There are many ways out, all have tradeoffs. Find the way out you are most comfortable with. Spend less, earn more, save more, invest prudently. These are the levers available to you to achieve an outcome.
You seem to be seeking to avoid working very much overall rather than avoiding the 9 to 5, which is a very different question. You are looking more at things like FIRE, except you don't want to do the intense burst of productivity route either.
To do that, you need some combo of a skill that pays extremely well for little work and a certain financial frugality. I have found plenty, but they are mostly:
1. Rules arbitrage, so I am exploiting someone's rules in a way they would not appreciate.
2. They do not scale. I don't make substantial income from them.
To do that, you need some combo of a skill that pays extremely well for little work and a certain financial frugality. I have found plenty, but they are mostly:
1. Rules arbitrage, so I am exploiting someone's rules in a way they would not appreciate.
2. They do not scale. I don't make substantial income from them.
My question wasn't clear enough I'm afraid. It's not that I don't want to work, it's more about the fact that I don't want to participate in meaningless rituals. There are absolutely zero reasons to have the 9-5. Software can be written also from 8 to 10, and from 4 to 8, but for some reason the entire world has gone mad and married the 9-5. On top of that, nobody really writes code for 8 hours. So instead of the 1-3 hours that I waste in a corporate world for meaningless "cooler talks", I could spend with my family, or workout. But no, I need to conform to 9-5.
I'm fine working 8 hours a day, I just want to do it on my terms and build my work around my lifestyle, rather than morph my lifestyle to suit the stupid notion of 9-5.
I'm fine working 8 hours a day, I just want to do it on my terms and build my work around my lifestyle, rather than morph my lifestyle to suit the stupid notion of 9-5.
I have spent almost no time on other people's payrolls (other than 1Y as part of a buyout) and have made it to semi-retirement with money in the bank, so avoiding 9-5 absolutely can be done.
Would you mind to share how and what do you do?
I'm now doing a PhD!
Here is stuff I did:
http://d.hd.org/CV/DHDCV.html
So a bunch of consulting/contracting and start-ups.
Drop me an email if I can help more.
Here is stuff I did:
http://d.hd.org/CV/DHDCV.html
So a bunch of consulting/contracting and start-ups.
Drop me an email if I can help more.
This is an impressive resume and some cool things you do!
I am, unfortunately, too old to start a PhD right now.
I am, unfortunately, too old to start a PhD right now.
I suspect that that is untrue! How old do you think I am?
I tried some freelance. Tried to build a business. And I read all the books about "working 4 hours a week", and aspiring to that lifestyle. However, the more I read from/talk with other people, the more I start to think that there is no escape from slaving for the rest of your life. Hear me out.
9-5, is well, 9-5. You get a stable salary when times are good. Hopefully you save enough for when times are bad. Despite all the "unlimited vacation" and other corporate BS, you are still obligated to be at the office/attend the daily meetings, hence you don't really have freedom to, say, be with your kids/family/at the beach at 12PM, because that's when your team is having a retrospective. The answer? Freelancing.
Except, from what I read, freelancing is the same 9-5 but you now have multiple teams/unstable income/(potentially) higher income. Despite the fact that freelancing seems lucrative to a salaried SWE, it is a 9-5 in disguise (at least from what people say on the internet, I don't have much experience there myself). Usually, it's not even 9-5 but more like 8AM to 10PM. But at least you are at home (hopefully?), so you can tell your spouse/kid "hey, not now, this client needs me". The answer? A SaaS.
Except, building a profitable SaaS is extremely hard, and is far from "4 hours work week". You spend all your free time to bootstrap the product, while spending the 9-5 to make money to feed yourself. There is a strong correlation between the founders of billion dollar companies and their (rich) background, so unless you come from money, you will sacrifice a lot (entertainment, relationships, socialization) to maybe land in the 1% of SaaS products to actually make more than 100$ MRR. And even if you are able to pull it off, consistently, you will be working more than 8 hours a day. At least you are not trading your time for money as a direct transaction. The answer? FIRE.
Work your ass off, save as much money and invest it in S&P500 in order to be able to live off 4% withdrawal rate. Except, the 4% safe withdrawal rate is somewhat conflicting, and if you want to actually live in a western country, instead of posting picture of how great it is in Bali/Thailand, while none of these countries have the needed infrastructure in order to have a family, then 4% for a family means you need to save A LOT. Like millions of $$. Which is possible if you live like a rat, less possible if you don't want to waste your youth, delay relationship (or break existing ones).
So.. My question to you HN: is there no escape from 9-5 as a concept? Are all these books about working 2 hours a week while making millions, are just BS?