All software in EU under product liability from 2026(consilium.europa.eu)
consilium.europa.eu
All software in EU under product liability from 2026
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024/10/10/eu-brings-product-liability-rules-in-line-with-digital-age-and-circular-economy/
92 comments
That's the entire point of EU directives: The differences should be so small that it will not matter to anybody.
Exactly. That's why the red tape and paperwork increased in UK once they left the EU.
The gist is, there are about ~30 countries that have their own laws and regulations(the exact number differs because it's not just the EU-only thing) and EU swoops in, makes up a regulation and tells all the members states and associated countries to align their laws and regulations with the EU stuff and you end up with 30 or so countries that have about the same laws and regulations instead of 30 very different laws and regulations. As a result, you don't have to deal with the laws of 30 countries - at least that's the idea but AFAIK EU is not unified enough to make this as smooth as desired - yet.
The gist is, there are about ~30 countries that have their own laws and regulations(the exact number differs because it's not just the EU-only thing) and EU swoops in, makes up a regulation and tells all the members states and associated countries to align their laws and regulations with the EU stuff and you end up with 30 or so countries that have about the same laws and regulations instead of 30 very different laws and regulations. As a result, you don't have to deal with the laws of 30 countries - at least that's the idea but AFAIK EU is not unified enough to make this as smooth as desired - yet.
The only problem is where should this end?
I'm all for improving trade, improving general cooperation, recycling rules/laws. The EU here did get a little too big with the curvature of a banana being mentioned.
However, I think a _LOT_ of people start to take issue when you say, "OK we're standardizing the way you vote now", "We're standardizing the way rights are structured in your country", "We now place the EU as a supreme directive with a foreign court on certain issues".
I can see the appeal, but this has a concerning dark side when it's brought in not through voting, but through treaty and trade in the real-world. Notice how I'm avoiding saying crony-capitalizm or a alike.
I wish the EC was more successful in lasting by itself or the EU more flexible and less like a bag of hammers on certain issues which required a soft-touch.
I'm not a fan of red tape, but less of a fan of 'Brussels' (I'm not being lyteral) dictating law over a multi-layered legal system with various existing rights and paths to appeal. Hence why I personally voted for Brexit.
Yes I'm now working with those new laws and red-tape day to day (boy you think industy had it bad look into academia at times), but most of the issues I see come from foreign entities being in denial of Brexit happening and now drafting in draconian laws that look like they're punishing britain, even if it's just a case of the EU never thought to harmonize EU<->UK relations into 1 concrete set of agreements after the fact.
(Yes, Boris and alike did NOT help by sitting across the table acting like spolit childrean at a birthday party. No to mention the whole NI thing dominating discussions because the US has some dealings here historically (I'm being polite!) and for some reason dragged them in whenever there was a 'threat to the peace accords'...)
In summary, I like the idea, I just wish people didn't power-grab under the guise of standardization. (Huh, isn't that Intel with USB3, x86, ... or Apple with lightning, wifi, ...)
I'm all for improving trade, improving general cooperation, recycling rules/laws. The EU here did get a little too big with the curvature of a banana being mentioned.
However, I think a _LOT_ of people start to take issue when you say, "OK we're standardizing the way you vote now", "We're standardizing the way rights are structured in your country", "We now place the EU as a supreme directive with a foreign court on certain issues".
I can see the appeal, but this has a concerning dark side when it's brought in not through voting, but through treaty and trade in the real-world. Notice how I'm avoiding saying crony-capitalizm or a alike.
I wish the EC was more successful in lasting by itself or the EU more flexible and less like a bag of hammers on certain issues which required a soft-touch.
I'm not a fan of red tape, but less of a fan of 'Brussels' (I'm not being lyteral) dictating law over a multi-layered legal system with various existing rights and paths to appeal. Hence why I personally voted for Brexit.
Yes I'm now working with those new laws and red-tape day to day (boy you think industy had it bad look into academia at times), but most of the issues I see come from foreign entities being in denial of Brexit happening and now drafting in draconian laws that look like they're punishing britain, even if it's just a case of the EU never thought to harmonize EU<->UK relations into 1 concrete set of agreements after the fact.
(Yes, Boris and alike did NOT help by sitting across the table acting like spolit childrean at a birthday party. No to mention the whole NI thing dominating discussions because the US has some dealings here historically (I'm being polite!) and for some reason dragged them in whenever there was a 'threat to the peace accords'...)
In summary, I like the idea, I just wish people didn't power-grab under the guise of standardization. (Huh, isn't that Intel with USB3, x86, ... or Apple with lightning, wifi, ...)
Brussels doesn't dictate any laws, member countries send elected and appointed people to Brussels then those people come together and agree on what to do and how to do it together and publish the directives like this one.
Countries like UK don't have a say on it anymore because they left the organization. EU doesn't impose any red tape over UK, it's just that if a British company wants to trade with EU needs to prove that they are doing it in accordance with the trade agreements with EU and that their products meet the EU standards.
For example, the UK companies will need to prove that the product that they sell in EU is mainly made in UK and not just an import from China(EU doesn't want UK to be hub for circumvention of trade deal, if China wants to sell stuff to EU they should do it with EU-China trade deals), then they will need to prove that their products meets the EU standards(EU doesn't want to import products that don't EU standards. Since UK is no longer a member, they can produce products that don't meet the EU standards and as a result UK companies need to prove that they meet EU standards).
That's why there's so much red tape and paperwork, this is to allow UK not to produce their stuff in accordance with the EU regulations and sign their own trade deal. For example, UK is now free to import chlorinated chicken from the USA and lead-paint from China if that's what they want or in less cynical words, UK is free to trade with the rest of the world in their own terms. That was one of the core promises of Brexit anyway and it was delivered.
Ps: banana curvature thing is a Euromyth[0].
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth
Countries like UK don't have a say on it anymore because they left the organization. EU doesn't impose any red tape over UK, it's just that if a British company wants to trade with EU needs to prove that they are doing it in accordance with the trade agreements with EU and that their products meet the EU standards.
For example, the UK companies will need to prove that the product that they sell in EU is mainly made in UK and not just an import from China(EU doesn't want UK to be hub for circumvention of trade deal, if China wants to sell stuff to EU they should do it with EU-China trade deals), then they will need to prove that their products meets the EU standards(EU doesn't want to import products that don't EU standards. Since UK is no longer a member, they can produce products that don't meet the EU standards and as a result UK companies need to prove that they meet EU standards).
That's why there's so much red tape and paperwork, this is to allow UK not to produce their stuff in accordance with the EU regulations and sign their own trade deal. For example, UK is now free to import chlorinated chicken from the USA and lead-paint from China if that's what they want or in less cynical words, UK is free to trade with the rest of the world in their own terms. That was one of the core promises of Brexit anyway and it was delivered.
Ps: banana curvature thing is a Euromyth[0].
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth
> banana curvature thing is a Euromyth[0].
yes, it's an example by absurdity of the problems, people believed it because of the amount of bloody paperwork that was introduced where there maybe wasn't any before...
Honestly if you aren't aware that no rule was made about this, either a) you're ill informed on a topic, b) you're a screeming anti EU phobic moron, or c) you've been living under some sort of teflon coated cover that has kept you from realising the only way people in the media, (politicians, celebrities, neds, chavs...) get any attention is to exagerate. Blimey... satire is lost on some people.
yes, it's an example by absurdity of the problems, people believed it because of the amount of bloody paperwork that was introduced where there maybe wasn't any before...
Honestly if you aren't aware that no rule was made about this, either a) you're ill informed on a topic, b) you're a screeming anti EU phobic moron, or c) you've been living under some sort of teflon coated cover that has kept you from realising the only way people in the media, (politicians, celebrities, neds, chavs...) get any attention is to exagerate. Blimey... satire is lost on some people.
> banana curvature thing is a Euromyth
EU Regulation 2257/94 governed the curvature of bananas. It was later replaced with EU Regulation 1333/2011 which is specifically a regulation on bananas and lays down specific requirements for bananas, in particular on their colour, firmness, ripeness, curvature of the fingers, bruising, moistness, smell and many other factors.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
EU Regulation 2257/94 governed the curvature of bananas. It was later replaced with EU Regulation 1333/2011 which is specifically a regulation on bananas and lays down specific requirements for bananas, in particular on their colour, firmness, ripeness, curvature of the fingers, bruising, moistness, smell and many other factors.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
That's false, it didn't govern curved bananas. At one point they considered creating a classification for bananas, not banning curved/straight bananas.
It's in the document that you linked. Even if that was the case, it would have ment that the UK demanded that. EU is not a Belgian institution, only the building is there and the people in that Building that make those EU laws and regulations are from France, Denmark, Spain and previously UK. You can confirm that by checking old photos and spot Nigel Farage.
Anyway, food in UK is horrendous and maybe UK should just go with the flow and do whatever continentals say about food :) Continentals can learn other stuff from the British of course. Like tap water being provided for free at every restaurant.
It's in the document that you linked. Even if that was the case, it would have ment that the UK demanded that. EU is not a Belgian institution, only the building is there and the people in that Building that make those EU laws and regulations are from France, Denmark, Spain and previously UK. You can confirm that by checking old photos and spot Nigel Farage.
Anyway, food in UK is horrendous and maybe UK should just go with the flow and do whatever continentals say about food :) Continentals can learn other stuff from the British of course. Like tap water being provided for free at every restaurant.
Why do you guys keep pretending this is a myth or didn't happen when you can read the regulations for yourself? I even gave you a link to read. The regulation is quite clearly written, no need to be afraid of it. And as for the silly "ban vs classify" word games, the European Commission's own press release on the repeal proposal said that they did ban curved bananas, and that they regretted doing so:
The proposal would also allow Member States to exempt fruit and vegetables from specific marketing standards if they are sold with a label "products intended for processing" or equivalent wording. Such products could be either misshapen or under-sized and could for example be used by consumers for cooking or salads etc. In this era of high prices and growing demand, it makes no sense to throw these products away or destroy them.
"This is a concrete example of our drive to cut red tape and I will continue to push until it goes through," said Mariann Fischer Boel, Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development. "It shouldn't be the EU's job to regulate these things. It is far better to leave it to market operators. It will also cut down on unnecessary waste and benefit consumers."
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/mex_08...
Key sentences:
• it makes no sense to throw these products away or destroy them
• it will also cut down on unnecessary waste
Why do you bring up Nigel Farage? Are you aware of how the EU works constitutionally? Farage was only ever in the European Parliament, which isn't allowed to write laws. It's one of the reasons Farage criticized it. That's why the press release about repealing "red tape" comes from a Commissioner, not an MEP.
Your final swipe at British food is uncalled for. Where I live there are shops dedicated to selling nothing but British food and they do well. Isn't the EU supposed to be all about cooperation and harmony between nations?
The proposal would also allow Member States to exempt fruit and vegetables from specific marketing standards if they are sold with a label "products intended for processing" or equivalent wording. Such products could be either misshapen or under-sized and could for example be used by consumers for cooking or salads etc. In this era of high prices and growing demand, it makes no sense to throw these products away or destroy them.
"This is a concrete example of our drive to cut red tape and I will continue to push until it goes through," said Mariann Fischer Boel, Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development. "It shouldn't be the EU's job to regulate these things. It is far better to leave it to market operators. It will also cut down on unnecessary waste and benefit consumers."
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/mex_08...
Key sentences:
• it makes no sense to throw these products away or destroy them
• it will also cut down on unnecessary waste
Why do you bring up Nigel Farage? Are you aware of how the EU works constitutionally? Farage was only ever in the European Parliament, which isn't allowed to write laws. It's one of the reasons Farage criticized it. That's why the press release about repealing "red tape" comes from a Commissioner, not an MEP.
Your final swipe at British food is uncalled for. Where I live there are shops dedicated to selling nothing but British food and they do well. Isn't the EU supposed to be all about cooperation and harmony between nations?
Because, It literally never happened. People in EU literally never been restricted from buying or selling bent or straight bananas. Anyway, Glad you feel like freed from banana shape tyranny, the world is whatever you perceive it to be.
So why did the Commission say people were so restricted?
Let's face it, a lot of people will take issue with _anything_ you'd say, for just about anything you choose as example and for different sets of "a lot of people". So while you are right, I cannot take it as an argument for either way. It's just the human nature and by extension the nature of democracy. It's also human to have sometimes leaders looking like acting irrationally, although they are very rational following their own goals which not always overlap with their voters and even less with their non-voting citizens. The only thing I don't approve in your text is blaming the others for not delivering something according to my taste. Like, if I'm not in the EU, there should be zero expectation that the EU does something I like.
> your text is blaming the others for not delivering something according to my taste
Oh I'm not accusing anyone of that, you can imply it if you want. I'm stating I hold a philosophical view and standing by that has consequences. I expected it to be more royally screwed up than it is in all honesty.
The results in the real world be damned, I held a view and I expressed it. I use public transport, I vote a certain way, I recycle even if that is also not worth a damn due to burning waste for power and new coal plants coming online around the world. Probably just makes me feel better that "you can't blame me for that jim"...
The results in the real world be damned, I held a view and I expressed it. I use public transport, I vote a certain way, I recycle even if that is also not worth a damn due to burning waste for power and new coal plants coming online around the world. Probably just makes me feel better that "you can't blame me for that jim"...
You make that "makes me feel better" sound a bit bad, but it's actually the start for everything good. If we the people don't practice it, why would companies and countries follow?
But to what end does it become Rae populism without people being informed on a topic?
I agree change has to come from somewhere, but it needn't be bottom up or top down. Writing silicon valley why not "middle out" ;)
I agree change has to come from somewhere, but it needn't be bottom up or top down. Writing silicon valley why not "middle out" ;)
The banana curvature trope is a right-wing talking point designed to get people mad about consumer protection laws. It’s not an example of overreach:
https://voxeurop.eu/en/how-bonkers-brussels-went-bananas-the...
https://voxeurop.eu/en/how-bonkers-brussels-went-bananas-the...
> but most of the issues I see come from foreign entities being in denial of Brexit happening and now drafting in draconian laws that look like they're punishing britain, even if it's just a case of the EU never thought to harmonize EU<->UK relations into 1 concrete set of agreements after the fact.
No way. The UK almost left with no agreement, Boris was pushing for it, he was put into power on that platform. Theresa May was probably the most sane voice of the Tories post-facto of Brexit, trying at least to push into some kind of deal to bring harmonisation between EU-UK laws, and she was thoroughly rejected by the British public and Tories in the House of Commons.
You can't blame the EU for the decisions you (as in UK) took, you voted for Brexit, the UK population voted in Boris, you reap what you sow.
There's no "punishment", the EU also loses a lot by not having the UK, European academia lost a lot, European advanced industry lost a lot, the EU didn't want the UK to leave, the EU tried to push for deals and was put on a cold foot by Boris's government...
It's frankly absurd to read this, the degree of victimisation for your own decisions, absolutely no one has gained anything from Brexit, neither in the UK or in the EU. I've seen friends scrambling to get residence in the countries they lived for years because of this stupidity.
Bendy bananas was never an issue, I can't take you very seriously if you are going to spew out tabloidal right-wing vitriol against the EU which was never an issue. The EU has many real issues to be discussed and tackled, using that stupid argument is not only stupid but shows absolute lack of grasp of what were the real issues within the EU.
No way. The UK almost left with no agreement, Boris was pushing for it, he was put into power on that platform. Theresa May was probably the most sane voice of the Tories post-facto of Brexit, trying at least to push into some kind of deal to bring harmonisation between EU-UK laws, and she was thoroughly rejected by the British public and Tories in the House of Commons.
You can't blame the EU for the decisions you (as in UK) took, you voted for Brexit, the UK population voted in Boris, you reap what you sow.
There's no "punishment", the EU also loses a lot by not having the UK, European academia lost a lot, European advanced industry lost a lot, the EU didn't want the UK to leave, the EU tried to push for deals and was put on a cold foot by Boris's government...
It's frankly absurd to read this, the degree of victimisation for your own decisions, absolutely no one has gained anything from Brexit, neither in the UK or in the EU. I've seen friends scrambling to get residence in the countries they lived for years because of this stupidity.
Bendy bananas was never an issue, I can't take you very seriously if you are going to spew out tabloidal right-wing vitriol against the EU which was never an issue. The EU has many real issues to be discussed and tackled, using that stupid argument is not only stupid but shows absolute lack of grasp of what were the real issues within the EU.
Can you evidence your claim about red tape increasing in the UK? Because there's some strong data points suggesting that this isn't the case. One is that Nick Clegg - former UK deputy prime minister, arch-Remainer and now VP of Global Affairs at Meta - was recently spotted on X saying this:
"We’re expanding Meta AI to more countries, including Brazil and the UK. Unfortunately, we still can't roll it out in the EU because of the regulatory uncertainty we face there." [1]
So the UK is able to trade with US firms in this case whereas the EU can't, due to EU created red tape, and this is according to a man who wrote a book called "How to stop Brexit".
Another data point is that the amount of trade with the EU wasn't hurt by leaving. Although there was a transient drop in goods exports it recovered within months, and trade in services (where the UK is strongest) didn't change at all. In fact the UK now exports significantly more services to the EU than it did before Brexit, with imports being roughly the same. The EU as a share of UK exports has barely changed, going from 43.1% in 2019 to 42.6% in 2022, which is consistent with the slow long term decline visible for many years pre-Brexit due to the rise of Asia. [2]
So whether you go by specific cases like Meta AI or overall import/export aggregation, the UK doesn't seem to be suffering from being outside the EU and is arguably benefiting, assuming you care about access to US AI services (which quite a lot of us do!).
[1] https://x.com/nickclegg/status/1844415308812939668
[2] https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-...
"We’re expanding Meta AI to more countries, including Brazil and the UK. Unfortunately, we still can't roll it out in the EU because of the regulatory uncertainty we face there." [1]
So the UK is able to trade with US firms in this case whereas the EU can't, due to EU created red tape, and this is according to a man who wrote a book called "How to stop Brexit".
Another data point is that the amount of trade with the EU wasn't hurt by leaving. Although there was a transient drop in goods exports it recovered within months, and trade in services (where the UK is strongest) didn't change at all. In fact the UK now exports significantly more services to the EU than it did before Brexit, with imports being roughly the same. The EU as a share of UK exports has barely changed, going from 43.1% in 2019 to 42.6% in 2022, which is consistent with the slow long term decline visible for many years pre-Brexit due to the rise of Asia. [2]
So whether you go by specific cases like Meta AI or overall import/export aggregation, the UK doesn't seem to be suffering from being outside the EU and is arguably benefiting, assuming you care about access to US AI services (which quite a lot of us do!).
[1] https://x.com/nickclegg/status/1844415308812939668
[2] https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-...
Sure, here's the list of the things you have to do to trade with EU that you previously didn't had to:
https://www.gov.uk/eori
https://www.gov.uk/check-customs-declaration
Commercial Invoice: A detailed invoice for each transaction is needed for customs clearance, containing information like the value of goods, description, and terms of sale.
Packing List: Provides details of the goods being shipped, quantities, weights, and packaging information. It's used by customs to verify contents. Commodity Codes (HS Codes): Classify the goods you are trading. These codes determine the duties and VAT that may apply.
Certificates of Origin:If your goods are eligible for preferential treatment (e.g., lower tariffs), you might need proof of origin to claim this benefit under the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA).
VAT and Duties: If you're selling to EU consumers, you may need to register for VAT in the EU or use the One-Stop Shop (OSS) scheme for simplified reporting.
Proof of Transport:ocuments such as bills of lading or airway bills to demonstrate that goods have left the UK or entered the EU.
Product-Specific Documentation: ome goods (e.g., food, chemicals, or electronics) may require additional certifications, safety data sheets, or compliance with product standards (e.g., CE or UKCA marking).
Trade Agreement Compliance: Ensure that your business complies with the terms set out in the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement, especially regarding rules of origin and applicable tariffs.
Here is some reporting on the impact of the businesses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-7rDYo3FR4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO2lWmgEK1Y
I'm sure Brexit even created jobs(for bureaucracy) to sustain previous levels of trade. I guess there's no evidence that increased bureaucracy is bad for business and the stats suggests that UK is doing great according to the government and some business with interest of processing EU users data not being able to do the things that Samsung is doing is a proof of reduction of bureaucracy. No?
https://www.gov.uk/eori
https://www.gov.uk/check-customs-declaration
Commercial Invoice: A detailed invoice for each transaction is needed for customs clearance, containing information like the value of goods, description, and terms of sale.
Packing List: Provides details of the goods being shipped, quantities, weights, and packaging information. It's used by customs to verify contents. Commodity Codes (HS Codes): Classify the goods you are trading. These codes determine the duties and VAT that may apply.
Certificates of Origin:If your goods are eligible for preferential treatment (e.g., lower tariffs), you might need proof of origin to claim this benefit under the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA).
VAT and Duties: If you're selling to EU consumers, you may need to register for VAT in the EU or use the One-Stop Shop (OSS) scheme for simplified reporting.
Proof of Transport:ocuments such as bills of lading or airway bills to demonstrate that goods have left the UK or entered the EU.
Product-Specific Documentation: ome goods (e.g., food, chemicals, or electronics) may require additional certifications, safety data sheets, or compliance with product standards (e.g., CE or UKCA marking).
Trade Agreement Compliance: Ensure that your business complies with the terms set out in the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement, especially regarding rules of origin and applicable tariffs.
Here is some reporting on the impact of the businesses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-7rDYo3FR4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO2lWmgEK1Y
I'm sure Brexit even created jobs(for bureaucracy) to sustain previous levels of trade. I guess there's no evidence that increased bureaucracy is bad for business and the stats suggests that UK is doing great according to the government and some business with interest of processing EU users data not being able to do the things that Samsung is doing is a proof of reduction of bureaucracy. No?
And yet in the end trade hasn't changed, so apparently there's something wrong with your argument. Let's look at the list.
> Product-Specific Documentation
EU specific certificates were previously always required, now they sometimes aren't. A net reduction in bureaucracy.
> VAT and Duties: If you're selling to EU consumers, you may need to register for VAT in the EU or use the One-Stop Shop (OSS) scheme for simplified reporting.
VAT registration was previously required anyway. In some cases it can now be avoided; a net reduction in bureaucracy.
> Commercial Invoice ... Packing List: Provides details of the goods being shipped ... Proof of Transport documents
These are used regardless of where you ship to. Do you really think people are moving things about Europe without invoices or bills of lading? Net neutral.
> Trade Agreement Compliance: Ensure that your business complies with the terms set out in the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement, especially regarding rules of origin and applicable tariffs
Most UK trade is in services that are tariff free anyway, and trade agreement compliance is apparently easy enough to not discourage trade.
It's just not that big of a deal. Meanwhile "can't use AI" is a big deal for any economy that wishes to remain advanced.
> Product-Specific Documentation
EU specific certificates were previously always required, now they sometimes aren't. A net reduction in bureaucracy.
> VAT and Duties: If you're selling to EU consumers, you may need to register for VAT in the EU or use the One-Stop Shop (OSS) scheme for simplified reporting.
VAT registration was previously required anyway. In some cases it can now be avoided; a net reduction in bureaucracy.
> Commercial Invoice ... Packing List: Provides details of the goods being shipped ... Proof of Transport documents
These are used regardless of where you ship to. Do you really think people are moving things about Europe without invoices or bills of lading? Net neutral.
> Trade Agreement Compliance: Ensure that your business complies with the terms set out in the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement, especially regarding rules of origin and applicable tariffs
Most UK trade is in services that are tariff free anyway, and trade agreement compliance is apparently easy enough to not discourage trade.
It's just not that big of a deal. Meanwhile "can't use AI" is a big deal for any economy that wishes to remain advanced.
Whatever, not interested in bureaucracy apologism.
I'm glad that bureaucracy, paperwork and restrictions don't affect you or maybe even you like it.
It's not my cup of tea and IMHO the British public was right with removing those responsible for it from power.
It's not my cup of tea and IMHO the British public was right with removing those responsible for it from power.
EU countries have 2 years to legislate the national implementations.
FOSS exemption but only for "outside commercial activity" - whatever that will mean.
I guess that guy in Nebraska is safe, but not so sure about my own one-man company.
FOSS exemption but only for "outside commercial activity" - whatever that will mean.
I guess that guy in Nebraska is safe, but not so sure about my own one-man company.
Your one man company definitely is not safe, you’ll be responsible for all damages done by the full stack you’re providing.
Each library / OS / whatever software is part of your product.
Yes, this is bad.
The EU really needs to be isolated from the world technology market. They are only creating hostility and rent-seeking from people that build things and contribute actual value.
The EU regulatory bureaucracy on tech, like all bureaucracies, does nothing but serve its own cancerous expansion.
The EU regulatory bureaucracy on tech, like all bureaucracies, does nothing but serve its own cancerous expansion.
[deleted]
> In order not to hamper innovation or research, this Directive should not apply to free and open-source software developed or supplied outside the course of a commercial activity, since products so developed or supplied are by definition not placed on the market. Developing or contributing to such software should not be understood as making it available on the market. Providing such software on open repositories should not be considered as making it available on the market, unless that occurs in the course of a commercial activity
Can't this wording easily be interpreted that commercial entities publishing open source software counts as a commercial activity? Wouldn't that kill corporate sponsored open source overnight? You could even argue Redhat (IBM) would be responsible for every user of any of their linux kernel patches/services no?
If not, what does this wording actually apply to?
Can't this wording easily be interpreted that commercial entities publishing open source software counts as a commercial activity? Wouldn't that kill corporate sponsored open source overnight? You could even argue Redhat (IBM) would be responsible for every user of any of their linux kernel patches/services no?
If not, what does this wording actually apply to?
That guy in Nebraska from the XKCD comic is probably safe.
I'm not convinced that my one-man company is, since I derive most of my income from FOSS software.
But that seems quite fair to me.
I'm not convinced that my one-man company is, since I derive most of my income from FOSS software.
But that seems quite fair to me.
Only now every user of the software in Europe has recourse to sue you if you make a mistake, instead of just your paying customers.
Your total liability went to infinity overnight (in 2026 anyways).
>I'm not convinced that my one-man company is, since I derive most of my income from FOSS software.
It's a bit of a problem that it's hard to even tell as well.
Your total liability went to infinity overnight (in 2026 anyways).
>I'm not convinced that my one-man company is, since I derive most of my income from FOSS software.
It's a bit of a problem that it's hard to even tell as well.
> Only now every user of the software in Europe has recourse to sue you if you make a mistake, instead of just your paying customers.
Only if they somehow directly got it from GP, through some kind of commercial thing. I doubt downloading stuff from Github for personal use qualifies.
The way I read it, this directive wants to ensure that for any digital product sold on the EU market, there exist some entity that can be sued in EU jurisdiction; within the Union, that would be the vendor; outside - a vendor representative, or an importer. Which is a perfectly reasonable expectation to have, and it's how it mostly works with physical goods and services (aliexpress notwithstanding).
Only if they somehow directly got it from GP, through some kind of commercial thing. I doubt downloading stuff from Github for personal use qualifies.
The way I read it, this directive wants to ensure that for any digital product sold on the EU market, there exist some entity that can be sued in EU jurisdiction; within the Union, that would be the vendor; outside - a vendor representative, or an importer. Which is a perfectly reasonable expectation to have, and it's how it mostly works with physical goods and services (aliexpress notwithstanding).
Who will be liable for "defective" directives and regulations? I would like to sue someone for all the wasted time and effort around cookie popups.
While I don't like cookie popups, I prefer them to the alternative - websites silently tracking me however they wish.
If the industry didn't want cookie popups, perhaps they should have respected the DNT header[1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Not_Track
If the industry didn't want cookie popups, perhaps they should have respected the DNT header[1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Not_Track
If you don't like cookies and don't want to be tracked, perhaps you should disable all cookies in your browser.
It's really simple, you'll get no more cookies ever. That tracking vector is totally disabled and you have full control over it. There's absolutely no need for a cookie banner for a person to be free of cookies.
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/block-websites-storing-...
It's really simple, you'll get no more cookies ever. That tracking vector is totally disabled and you have full control over it. There's absolutely no need for a cookie banner for a person to be free of cookies.
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/block-websites-storing-...
Which isn't helping [0], cookies are just a more convenient shortcut for fingerprinting, and GDPR is not against cookies but tracking and profile building so prevents those too. The removal of cookies by the majority of people would bring up "Fingerprint banners"
[0] "Yes! You are unique among the 2926891 fingerprints in our entire dataset." https://amiunique.org/fingerprint
[0] "Yes! You are unique among the 2926891 fingerprints in our entire dataset." https://amiunique.org/fingerprint
Ironic that this site, attempting to raise awareness about online privacy issues, has a cookie banner...
That site is truly scary...
Cookie pop-ups is a clear case of "malicious compliance" and I guess all spying companies hoped they could make it so annoying that citizens of EU would revolt or something.
Didn't work, instead many more people (at least here in EU) are now aware how how bad the spying has become.
Didn't work, instead many more people (at least here in EU) are now aware how how bad the spying has become.
It's easy: if you as a website owner transfer personally identifiable information to a third party and it's not strictly necessary to provide your service, then you need consent from the user.
If you would refrain sharing that info, you wouldn't need to ask for consent. There is no law that asks for cookie popups
If you would refrain sharing that info, you wouldn't need to ask for consent. There is no law that asks for cookie popups
Yes, e.g. there is no law for cookie popups, you can use cookies without consent if you use cookies say for session handling.
I would like more sites asking consent when passing info to a 3rd party becomes necessary (in relation to a requested service, like when you use location services in a phone app, for example) instead of asking for bulk consent for the whole site visit.
Even the EU's own official web portal [1] has a cookie pop-up that covers half the screen of my mobile phone when I visit it.
[1] https://europa.eu/
[1] https://europa.eu/
Probably built by a web gency who added tracking, perhaps even GA, so there was need for a cookie pop up banner. Why that website would need tracking and profiling is beyond me.
I think every website should understand how and by who their website is used. I don't consider this "spying." If you walk into a brick and mortar store the shopkeeper has every right to count that you came in, and watch where you go in the store to optimize it. The web should be no different.
Fortunately there are in fact cookieless analytics systems that people can use to get this information why not being required to have the stupid cookie popup.
Fortunately there are in fact cookieless analytics systems that people can use to get this information why not being required to have the stupid cookie popup.
"I think every website should understand how and by who their website is used"
1. You don't need cookies or profiling for that - use Simple Analytics et. al.
2. You can ask for my consent, but you can't profile me against my will
3. A brick and mortar store does not profile me without my consent.
1. You don't need cookies or profiling for that - use Simple Analytics et. al.
2. You can ask for my consent, but you can't profile me against my will
3. A brick and mortar store does not profile me without my consent.
Yes, a brick and mortar store can absolutely profile you without consent if they wished, and so can a website. The only condition is not collecting PII.
Difficult, they try from time to time, then they get fake email adresses and fake zip codes in their database.
(Not using loyalty cards or CCs)
(Not using loyalty cards or CCs)
FWIW I am a website/webapp owner and use zero third party cookies or services, not even first party tracking (apart from analyzing web server logs from time to time).
Still, the GDPR obviously had some "bugs" which let companies get away with basically showing you "we're tracking you, click OK". Which is a waste of time for the companies and users and doesn't improve users' privacy in any way. So, it was a faulty law that caused damages
Still, the GDPR obviously had some "bugs" which let companies get away with basically showing you "we're tracking you, click OK". Which is a waste of time for the companies and users and doesn't improve users' privacy in any way. So, it was a faulty law that caused damages
Your first paragraph describes GDPR, which does not require cookie popups.
But there is also the e-privacy directive (older than GDPR) that does require a cookie popup for any cookie not strictly required to deliver the service. Regardless of whether it tracks PII. So this also applies if for example you only want to know whether someone is a returning visitor or a new visitor without storing any identifier.
But there is also the e-privacy directive (older than GDPR) that does require a cookie popup for any cookie not strictly required to deliver the service. Regardless of whether it tracks PII. So this also applies if for example you only want to know whether someone is a returning visitor or a new visitor without storing any identifier.
The worst cookie pop-ups come from a Florida company, that is hell-bent on punishing the whole internet for not allowing them to invade privacy.
They not only do some shoddy attempt of malicious compliance, they don't even do it actually right, for example EU law says if you have an accept all button, you must have a reject all button, but they don't do that.
Also the law doesn't give an exception for "legitimate interest", yet when you open their menu to disable manually everything (that by the law, should be disabled by default, except cookies essential to keep the site working), they have a bunch of random tracking cookies enabled because it is "legitimate interest". I think the only reason they weren't sued out of existence yet, is because it is a US company, thus they don't have to actually follow EU laws or something. (or they act like that, at least, I am not a lawyer).
EDIT: linkedin link to the offending company: https://www.linkedin.com/company/getadmiral/
They not only do some shoddy attempt of malicious compliance, they don't even do it actually right, for example EU law says if you have an accept all button, you must have a reject all button, but they don't do that.
Also the law doesn't give an exception for "legitimate interest", yet when you open their menu to disable manually everything (that by the law, should be disabled by default, except cookies essential to keep the site working), they have a bunch of random tracking cookies enabled because it is "legitimate interest". I think the only reason they weren't sued out of existence yet, is because it is a US company, thus they don't have to actually follow EU laws or something. (or they act like that, at least, I am not a lawyer).
EDIT: linkedin link to the offending company: https://www.linkedin.com/company/getadmiral/
Is there a requirement in the EU laws that the popups need to be in a specific language? I've seen plenty of websites in the EU that uses a non-english language in the popup and there is no option to switch to another language to understand what you are agreeing to.
Websites don't have to show cookie popups, unless they want to track you, gather or sell data on you, etc. The issue here lies with the websites, not with the legislation.
There's no rule requiring cookie popups.
Sue the companies that design or use these anti-user cookie pop-ups.
People here love them but it's become the same as just about every ToS. No one reads them, you just bash whatever button lets you get to the page.
The EU essentially mandated popups.
The EU essentially mandated popups.
It's the politicians, that's why vote them in and out every few years.
The product liability directive holds all producers jointly liable for any harm caused by unsafe or defective products - including software. So, people who supply 'software as component' or software service may be held responsible for the safety of the products that incorporate or use the software.
But people can also claim for the loss, corruption or destruction of 'personal data' caused by product defects.
So this means it will be easier/possible to sue developers/companies for defective software? How is this anything other than a cash grab by lawyers?
There's something called "The American Rule" which sets USA apart from pretty much the rest of the world.
In USA, win or loose, each party pays their own lawyer.
This is why USA has lawyers often work on "contingency" where they nominally work for free, but receive a large fraction of any settlement or award if the case is won.
In the rest of the world, and specifically in EU where this applies, the looser pays the winner's (reasonable) legal fees.
Not saying that lawyers are not greedy in EU, but not in the way USAnians are used to think about lawyers.
So no: This is genuine consumer protection.
In USA, win or loose, each party pays their own lawyer.
This is why USA has lawyers often work on "contingency" where they nominally work for free, but receive a large fraction of any settlement or award if the case is won.
In the rest of the world, and specifically in EU where this applies, the looser pays the winner's (reasonable) legal fees.
Not saying that lawyers are not greedy in EU, but not in the way USAnians are used to think about lawyers.
So no: This is genuine consumer protection.
Interesting to see from the press release that Right to Repair is being cracked down upon:
When a product is repaired and upgraded outside the original manufacturer’s control, the company or person that modified the product should be held liable.
Will we see companies sue repair shops or compatible component manufacturers in order to prevent potential injury to their customers. Interesting times.
When a product is repaired and upgraded outside the original manufacturer’s control, the company or person that modified the product should be held liable.
Will we see companies sue repair shops or compatible component manufacturers in order to prevent potential injury to their customers. Interesting times.
EU has been pretty vocal about "Circular Economy" and also the right to repair for ages, so I do not expect a bona-fide repair job brings anybody in legal trouble.
But conversely: Should the original manufacturer be responsible if somebody installs hacked-up "performance" software in a car ?
Of course not!
But conversely: Should the original manufacturer be responsible if somebody installs hacked-up "performance" software in a car ?
Of course not!
Why would companies do that? They won't be held liable once it's modified.
So they have the monopoly on repairs
not true. if you make a repair, you're liable for it. if you do your job well, there's no reason that would mean more of a business risk than the OEM takes.
If, on the other hand, you do a rush job, then yes you're very much on the hook.
If anything, this makes repairs/reuse of devices more interesting to the consumer, since you know that some basic level of responsibility (read: liability) is taken care of.
If, on the other hand, you do a rush job, then yes you're very much on the hook.
If anything, this makes repairs/reuse of devices more interesting to the consumer, since you know that some basic level of responsibility (read: liability) is taken care of.
Who decides the definition of "what was suppose to work" in the context of a given software product?
There are times when a feature is used in a way which was not intended by the developers. Now do the developers have to publish their test scenarios?
What if the bug is in 3rd party library? Add to it the complexity of open-source code.
There are times when a feature is used in a way which was not intended by the developers. Now do the developers have to publish their test scenarios?
What if the bug is in 3rd party library? Add to it the complexity of open-source code.
> What if the bug is in 3rd party library?
It will probably be similar to when a physical product is defective because of a faulty 3rd party component.
More importantly, as a professional software developer, the testing of my product should find problems in 3rd party components. If I chose poorly and the 3rd party component doesn't do what it's supposed to do, that's my responsibility. I can't just slough it off onto someone else.
It will probably be similar to when a physical product is defective because of a faulty 3rd party component.
More importantly, as a professional software developer, the testing of my product should find problems in 3rd party components. If I chose poorly and the 3rd party component doesn't do what it's supposed to do, that's my responsibility. I can't just slough it off onto someone else.
> my product should find problems in 3rd party components.
Does that mean that say a security vulnerability in openssl is a responsibility of all software which uses them? I think its unreasonable to expect software projects/products to find things like heartbleed.
What about bugs in kernel/OS? How many user-mode software can find bugs in kernel/OS?
Does that mean that say a security vulnerability in openssl is a responsibility of all software which uses them? I think its unreasonable to expect software projects/products to find things like heartbleed.
What about bugs in kernel/OS? How many user-mode software can find bugs in kernel/OS?
The OS is not a 3rd party library. You're confusing two different topics here.
BTW: Software vendors find bugs in the OS all the time.
BTW: Software vendors find bugs in the OS all the time.
The EU has two primary types of legislation, regulations and directives. There are other things such as recommendations etc, but those are usually pretty clear from their name, so I'll exclude those from the explanation. A simple way to think about a regulation is essentially an EU-wide law, it applies the way it was written in Brussels across all of EU. Directives, that's the one in the article, are more like interfaces. They're a guideline of goals to achieve, and every country must implement their own version of the directive.
Why do directives even exist? Because the legal landscape can be widely different between EU countries. Directives give every country flexibility in implementing them in a way that is consistent with the way their laws work, existing precedents, etc. The downside is obviously that the implementations will somewhat differ from country from country.
This means that unless the implementations between countries are fairly consistent, the definition of what working as intended means will vary from country to country.
Why do directives even exist? Because the legal landscape can be widely different between EU countries. Directives give every country flexibility in implementing them in a way that is consistent with the way their laws work, existing precedents, etc. The downside is obviously that the implementations will somewhat differ from country from country.
This means that unless the implementations between countries are fairly consistent, the definition of what working as intended means will vary from country to country.
In the end, a court of justice (in EU, not in USA!) does.
It's not a bad first approximation to expect courts in EU to very sensible and fair.
It's not a bad first approximation to expect courts in EU to very sensible and fair.
> There are times when a feature is used in a way which was not intended by the developers. Now do the developers have to publish their test scenarios?
I think the vendor will need to be a lot more clear about what the supported use case is; and what use cases aren't supported.
I think the vendor will need to be a lot more clear about what the supported use case is; and what use cases aren't supported.
So if you only market/sell your software outside of the EU then this wouldn’t apply, correct? If someone bought it in the USA and then moved capital equipment to the EU with said software I would think the law isn’t enforceable in that or similar situations?
I wonder if CrowdStrike's fiasco played a role in this.
I've talked to various people over the last couple of years, and it seems Colonial Pipeline was the big eye-opener for politicians in USA: Nobody could be sued, even though they were aware of the problems.
In EU I've heard more about ransomware in general and the behavior of Microsoft and Oracle in license negotiations and "audits" in particular.
But the overall tenor is that politicians have had it up to here with the IT industry's "What me worry?" attitude to quality, responsibility and liability.
In EU I've heard more about ransomware in general and the behavior of Microsoft and Oracle in license negotiations and "audits" in particular.
But the overall tenor is that politicians have had it up to here with the IT industry's "What me worry?" attitude to quality, responsibility and liability.
You greatly overestimate the speed at which bureacracy moves
You have no idea how slow governments are.
Will this prevent shut downs of games that rely on central server, like what happened to The Crew?
If you look at page 51 it says:
2. […]an economic operator shall not be exempted from liability where the defectiveness of a product is due to any of the following, provided that it is within the manufacturer’s control: (a)a related service; (b)software, including software updates or upgrades; (c)a lack of software updates or upgrades necessary to maintain safety; (d)a substantial modification of the product.
Not sure if (a) or (d) would be more applicable, but I think it would be covered ?
2. […]an economic operator shall not be exempted from liability where the defectiveness of a product is due to any of the following, provided that it is within the manufacturer’s control: (a)a related service; (b)software, including software updates or upgrades; (c)a lack of software updates or upgrades necessary to maintain safety; (d)a substantial modification of the product.
Not sure if (a) or (d) would be more applicable, but I think it would be covered ?
Yeah, looks like D would apply but I afraid it would have to be tested in court. Game companies won't go without a fight.
I hope the EU are liable for software that they make defective by their own security legislation.
Honestly, it's about time. I've paid for so many things that fail because of defective software, and had limited or no recourse.
As a result, software companies are incentivized to make software full of hardly-used features with limited testing; because there are no consequences when software doesn't do what the claim is.
As a result, software companies are incentivized to make software full of hardly-used features with limited testing; because there are no consequences when software doesn't do what the claim is.
So I can't just blame my bullshit on "the computer" or say that AI ate my homework and have to own it? Terroble times. Next thing, evil bureacrats will then make me actually care and owm broken accessibility.
I wonder if this will speed up the push to "renting" software as opposed to buying it.
By that I mean, in order to use any software product, you will need to phone home and what you do is logged on a server. This way, the vendor may be able to find a way to blame you for a violation.
By that I mean, in order to use any software product, you will need to phone home and what you do is logged on a server. This way, the vendor may be able to find a way to blame you for a violation.
Why would renting software be any different? If you rent a defective car, the company that rents it to you is still liable.
Now (or at one time), you could buy Microsoft Office and use it without an internet connection.
With this, maybe that option will be gone, companies can blame the EU for requiring a internet connection and the user is stuck being logged/spied on agreeing to this via an EUL.
With this, maybe that option will be gone, companies can blame the EU for requiring a internet connection and the user is stuck being logged/spied on agreeing to this via an EUL.
A company cannot exempt itself from product liability with an EULA.
Cloud services are also explicitly mentioned as covered.
Cloud services are also explicitly mentioned as covered.
This is an absolutely terrible argument. So much shrinkwrapped software phones home these days well before this law. MS Office has required it for years! Look up MS Office XP (2001).
In your imagination maybe.
CMIIW, but this appears to be an attempt to clarify who is at fault when a device malfunctions due to software issue and allow a manufacturer in Czechia to use software from Poland without dealing with differences on Czech and Polish laws and regulations over software.