Paris to Berlin by train is now faster by five hours(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Paris to Berlin by train is now faster by five hours
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2024/dec/24/paris-to-berlin-by-train-faster-service-via-strasbourg
114 comments
You could get from Paris to Berlin by train with one change, and it was about the same train time, plus maybe 1/2h of wait at frankfurt. This title is extremely misleading.
The number 1 rule of European (esp. German) train travel is - minimize changes as much as possible. Timetables are so unreliable that booking a long trip with a change is just too much risk.
Going Paris to Berlin implies a change in Frankfurt. If you miss your connection, but you have a through-ticket, you can pick the next train to Berlin. There’s a train from Frankfurt to Berlin like twice an hour or so. Sure it sucks missing a connection, but in this direction is not so bad.
In the other direction on the other hand…
In the other direction on the other hand…
Except you lose your reserved seat and end up sitting on the floor for hours, crammed in with everyone else who missed that connection.
Then you get the pleasure of arguing with DB about compensation. Of course, only possible by post.
Then you get the pleasure of arguing with DB about compensation. Of course, only possible by post.
Does this also apply to “supersparpreis” tickets? i occasionally use DB but I find the pricing options and rules confusing.
Yes, if your delay is caused by DB, and the next train that continues your journey is an hour later, you can take that even with the super saver ticket.
The DB Navigator app can now "even" show that your you are no longer bound to specific trains when that happens, with a little banner in the top.
The DB Navigator app can now "even" show that your you are no longer bound to specific trains when that happens, with a little banner in the top.
Provided that you didn't miss the connection due to a delay.
German railways are not an etalon of punctuality anymore, the infrastructure has rotten due to years of neglect.
German railways are not an etalon of punctuality anymore, the infrastructure has rotten due to years of neglect.
> German railways are not an etalon of punctuality anymore, the infrastructure has rotten due to years of neglect.
But as compensation the holy debt brake (Schuldenbremse) persists! That should make future generations very happy, while driving their horse teams over clay paths. /s
But as compensation the holy debt brake (Schuldenbremse) persists! That should make future generations very happy, while driving their horse teams over clay paths. /s
Germany had major budget surpluses until 2019 [0]. But that money wasn't spent on investments. It is not just question of raw money itself; Germany needs to change its very attitude to spending, preferring investments into the future, otherwise all that borrowed money once the Schuldenbremse is lifted will be wasted too.
[0] https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/government-budget
[0] https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/government-budget
Someone add "direct" before train?
Does anybody have experience in China? I heard a lot that their train system is much better at this point. So, for example, the same distance will take almost two times less in China.
In my experience (primarily in the south), high speed rail in China is fast if you only consider station to station time, but the amount of bureaucracy at either end is comparable to flying. You can't buy tickets without ID, you can rarely find same day tickets, there's no option for standing carriage, there's numerous security checkpoints and lots of lining up. It's best to arrive at the station an hour plus beforehand with prebooked tickets. Meanwhile the stations themselves are often way outside the urban centers you probably wanted to visit and there's not much nearby to do that isn't overpriced shopping mall/chain store stuff. You also can't leave and reenter the stations at will, you have to pass through security each time, just like an airport.
I found traveling by slow train or long distance bus much more pleasant in China because you can just walk in, buy a ticket to wherever and head out the same day. They take ages and there are all the usual delays, but the experience is much less stressful and more comparable to the train experience people from other countries might expect.
All that said, I'd still pick Chinese high speed rail over flying just for emissions reasons if nothing else.
I found traveling by slow train or long distance bus much more pleasant in China because you can just walk in, buy a ticket to wherever and head out the same day. They take ages and there are all the usual delays, but the experience is much less stressful and more comparable to the train experience people from other countries might expect.
All that said, I'd still pick Chinese high speed rail over flying just for emissions reasons if nothing else.
Thank you for all of that useful information, and especially for thinking about our planet. Cheers to you!
Thanks a lot for sharing your experience!
They have lots of options (fast/slow/sleeper/premium/etc..): https://www.travelchinaguide.com/china-trains/display.aspx?t... and also pricing is more predictable. In general, it's only a bit cheaper than flying but China rail stations are usually in the center of their cities, so you save 30minx2 vs the airport.
in beijing and in changsha the primary high speed railway stations are almost as far out from the city as the airports. shanghai is also at one of the airport (the one that is closer to the city at least). i believe several other cities are similar. the problem is that chinese cities are huge, so looking at the map it feels like the trainstations are in the city, but then the same is true for many airports.
The trains in China are amazing. Most of the current track has been built in the last ten years. They’re done connecting major cities, so now we’re seeing high speed lines to places like Beijing suburbs, which turn multiple-hour car rides into 40 minute train rides.
For trips up to about 1500km I’ll favor the train because it’s just more comfortable — security checks are sane, no luggage check, and more leg room. Beijing to Shanghai could be faster by train or by plane depending on which airport you fly into, and where your destination is within the city.
Beijing to HK is a different story. The fastest trains to Shenzhen (right across from HK) are currently 7h50m, compared to a 3.5 hr flight. An overnight sleeper is a good option, especially if you have 3 friends to travel with.
For trips up to about 1500km I’ll favor the train because it’s just more comfortable — security checks are sane, no luggage check, and more leg room. Beijing to Shanghai could be faster by train or by plane depending on which airport you fly into, and where your destination is within the city.
Beijing to HK is a different story. The fastest trains to Shenzhen (right across from HK) are currently 7h50m, compared to a 3.5 hr flight. An overnight sleeper is a good option, especially if you have 3 friends to travel with.
A hypothetical US equivalent of China's high speed 300km/hour rail could do US coast to coast in under 24 hours.
It’s brand new and they have put in place modern technologies everywhere. So it works very well.
Amusingly, China uses pieces of technology which were developed in Europe for its train system. Signalling is a good exemple (CTCS is basically ETCS). Europe is as usual deploying at a snail pace while China put it everywhere.
It was obvious from the start it would end up this way. China is an actual country while Europe is a loose collection of countries which don’t really like each other supposedly spearheaded by Germany which actually only cares about pushing policies in its own interest and actively hinder anything else, and France which remains stuck thirty years in the past and is actively being sabotaged by most of the things the EU forces it to do regarding infrastructure (more true in energy than in rail that being said).
Amusingly, China uses pieces of technology which were developed in Europe for its train system. Signalling is a good exemple (CTCS is basically ETCS). Europe is as usual deploying at a snail pace while China put it everywhere.
It was obvious from the start it would end up this way. China is an actual country while Europe is a loose collection of countries which don’t really like each other supposedly spearheaded by Germany which actually only cares about pushing policies in its own interest and actively hinder anything else, and France which remains stuck thirty years in the past and is actively being sabotaged by most of the things the EU forces it to do regarding infrastructure (more true in energy than in rail that being said).
The New York Central 999 broke 160km/hr in the 19th century. The US had commercial express train service running at similar speeds in the early 1900s. Outside the TGV Europe isn’t a few years behind they are like a century behind.
I guess it is a century behind because Europe hasn't scrapped their commuter rail for roads. I took a train from Manhattan today and its theoretical max speed is 110 mile/h, so the US has fallen behind Europe by your logic.
That’s non sense. TGV speed record is 320km/h by the way and 160km/h is a pedestrian daily occurrence on the French rail system. Meanwhile the US has somehow decided trains are for freight and as no decent rail system in place for travellers.
The discussion makes sense with China which is pushing forward quickly using new tech. The US is not even part of it.
The discussion makes sense with China which is pushing forward quickly using new tech. The US is not even part of it.
It doesn't have much to do with "China being an actual country".
Germany alone is also an actual country and the trains inside it's borders are super slow.
In China and Japan, many long distance trains get 320 km/h average speed!
The German ICE "machine" could theoretically also do that speed but there are barely any tracks where this is possible, so the average speed is around 3x slower.
In France and Italy it is much better. TGV and Frecciarossa trains usually operate much closer to their specced speeds.
Germany alone is also an actual country and the trains inside it's borders are super slow.
In China and Japan, many long distance trains get 320 km/h average speed!
The German ICE "machine" could theoretically also do that speed but there are barely any tracks where this is possible, so the average speed is around 3x slower.
In France and Italy it is much better. TGV and Frecciarossa trains usually operate much closer to their specced speeds.
germany is making the big mistake of mixed use tracks. in china high speed tracks are dedicated to high speed trains, and a high speed connection means dedicated high speed tracks for the whole trip. germany is creating a patchwork of high speed routes thinking that this is enough to make high speed trains work.
The slowness regarding rolling out things like ETCS, ATS and standardised European infrastructure as everything to do with Europe not being an actual united political entity. As you rightfully pointed, some EU members rail strategy is very dubious.
I'm wondering if these tracks have digital signal boxes. That's one of the biggest problems with the German rail system: analogue signal boxes where an awful lot still needs personell to operate. Right now is a sick season, so you get reduced connections.
There are at least 3 generations in use: Purely mechanical ones, relay based (which is digital), semi-conductor based computers of various age. I don't think analog computers have been used in any phase.
I would not be surprised if purely mechanical ones achieve higher reliability than some generations of digital ones.
But many small signal boxes are vulnerable if there is not enough staff, which has been a common problem for a couple of years. Naturally mechanical signal boxes are very limited in their range.
I would not be surprised if purely mechanical ones achieve higher reliability than some generations of digital ones.
But many small signal boxes are vulnerable if there is not enough staff, which has been a common problem for a couple of years. Naturally mechanical signal boxes are very limited in their range.
You mean etcs? These are not new tracks, so they will or will not same as before.
Last I heard, retrofitting etc was also put on hold due to austerity measures.
It depends, but not on TEN-T [1] routes, which this one is.
[1] https://transport.ec.europa.eu/transport-themes/infrastructu...
[1] https://transport.ec.europa.eu/transport-themes/infrastructu...
The headline is BS. At least completely misleading.
They only compare to some strange, Russian direct train.
The reference should be the current best connection, which would have one train switch.
The difference between this new connection and the fastest connection with one switch is ~15 minutes.
They only compare to some strange, Russian direct train.
The reference should be the current best connection, which would have one train switch.
The difference between this new connection and the fastest connection with one switch is ~15 minutes.
It's not strange, there was a Moscow-Paris train before Covid-19.
I wonder how often that one switch is plagued by delays which turn those 15 minutes into significantly longer times, and cause propagating delays throughout the system.
Not that often probably, as there was a 30 min switch time.
If you have tickets for a family with seat reservation, any problem with the switch can be very annoying, especially if the second train is full. It’s definitely not the same as direct train.
That Russian train was optimized for long distance experience and had sleeper cars. It was pretty good and could have been better if it was traveling the same speed as the new train. We need more of such trains in Europe.
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> One-way fares from €59.99 second class or €69.99 first class.
The “from” bit is worth to stress here: with DB (German railway company), one-way fares may be up to €233.00 for second class or €384.00 for first class, depending on demand, the cancellation policy you choose, and how long you book in advance. Seat reservations are extra.
The “from” bit is worth to stress here: with DB (German railway company), one-way fares may be up to €233.00 for second class or €384.00 for first class, depending on demand, the cancellation policy you choose, and how long you book in advance. Seat reservations are extra.
I travel from Zurich to Hannover fairly regularly (about 7 hour train journey) and it generally costs 59 to 89 EUR each way first class, booked supersaver (fixed train) a week or two in advance with a 1st class Bahncard 25. The return is usually in the region of 140 to 160 EUR.
From my point of view, DB trains are cheap, and first class is reasonably comfortable with a power point and meals ordered to your seats.
Punctuality is a different matter of course.
(I just checked the prices for a late January return trip I'll be doing, and right now it's 100 EUR return, 53 / 47 for the legs.)
From my point of view, DB trains are cheap, and first class is reasonably comfortable with a power point and meals ordered to your seats.
Punctuality is a different matter of course.
(I just checked the prices for a late January return trip I'll be doing, and right now it's 100 EUR return, 53 / 47 for the legs.)
as a frequent and spontaneous traveler, i was never able to book fixed trains so far in advance. this inflexibility adds stress that i really would like to avoid. it ruins the experience because it takes away the spontaneity
I pay more than that to go back to my hometown by TGV which is less than 200km away from Paris and that’s with a subscription giving access to preferential prices.
There is no way Paris-Berlin is going to be this cheap. From experience I expect the train to be at least twice more expensive than flying.
Having worked a few years with SNCF, it can’t be otherwise. It’s the most mismanaged company I have ever worked for, gangrened by unions which fight tooth and nails to preserve advantages which reasons to exist disappeared decades ago. Unions review the full trains planning with management before it’s validated and veto any optimisations which would cut overtime or might impact compensations without any regards for customers. It’s revolting.
There is no way Paris-Berlin is going to be this cheap. From experience I expect the train to be at least twice more expensive than flying.
Having worked a few years with SNCF, it can’t be otherwise. It’s the most mismanaged company I have ever worked for, gangrened by unions which fight tooth and nails to preserve advantages which reasons to exist disappeared decades ago. Unions review the full trains planning with management before it’s validated and veto any optimisations which would cut overtime or might impact compensations without any regards for customers. It’s revolting.
Before leaving France I often travelled by train and felt exactly the same way: a total ripoff for the service they offer...In Spain you'll also get trains that arrive late but they're usually cleaner and the price is much more affordable, and they don't go on strike as often as in strike land.
At least French trains actually work most of the time. UK is just as bad pricing wise but the service is so much worse.
I've read about that, and it definitely seems like a shit show. It's about time these things change. Since I got here I mostly travel by train and I know that it's a privilege, it should be the norm in these developed countries. Anyway, hang in there and good luck.
> gangrened by unions which fight tooth and nails to preserve advantages which reasons to exist disappeared decades ago. Unions review the full trains planning with management before it’s validated and veto any optimisations which would cut overtime or might impact compensations without any regards for customers. It’s revolting
I've heard that before, but usually from the crowd that wants to privatise the whole country anyway. I understand that you're claiming to have witnessed it, but do you have some sources?
Surely, the amount of money they pour onto Cap Gemini and many other consulting firms to rebuild existing systems instead of having teams in-house who could maintain them must have an impact on ticket costs...
I've heard that before, but usually from the crowd that wants to privatise the whole country anyway. I understand that you're claiming to have witnessed it, but do you have some sources?
Surely, the amount of money they pour onto Cap Gemini and many other consulting firms to rebuild existing systems instead of having teams in-house who could maintain them must have an impact on ticket costs...
> I understand that you're claiming to have witnessed it, but do you have some sources?
I have witnessed that and more like optimisation software being disabled to avoid cutting into overtime. Just go take a look at how drivers are paid and where their comp comes from. It’s all public knowledge. Take a look at the recurring reports from the court of auditors or talk with anyone working there.
We are talking about a company in which the two main unions are openly Trotskyist and which has a permanent strike warning by rotating between union to open one in defiance of French law.
This is not drum beating for privatisation by the way (even if all the formerly public French companies I had the misfortune to work for are fairly mismanaged but nothing as bad as SNCF thankfully). I am sure with enough reforms it could work while being public. I mean Singapore manages so it’s not impossible.
It’s just impossible to wonder why France is in such a sorry state after having working for anything publicly managed in France. The French state carves exception for itself in all the labour laws because they know their administration is so poor they can’t respect them.
I have witnessed that and more like optimisation software being disabled to avoid cutting into overtime. Just go take a look at how drivers are paid and where their comp comes from. It’s all public knowledge. Take a look at the recurring reports from the court of auditors or talk with anyone working there.
We are talking about a company in which the two main unions are openly Trotskyist and which has a permanent strike warning by rotating between union to open one in defiance of French law.
This is not drum beating for privatisation by the way (even if all the formerly public French companies I had the misfortune to work for are fairly mismanaged but nothing as bad as SNCF thankfully). I am sure with enough reforms it could work while being public. I mean Singapore manages so it’s not impossible.
It’s just impossible to wonder why France is in such a sorry state after having working for anything publicly managed in France. The French state carves exception for itself in all the labour laws because they know their administration is so poor they can’t respect them.
As an American reading this I feel like there's some nuance being lost in translation. Taken to their logical extremes we've seen what things like optimization software (East Palestine), banning strikes (PATCO and current ATC staffing woes), privatization (ATC again — see any video on youtube about the KSQL controller), and weak labor laws (pretty much every fatigue related crash e.g. Colgan Air) bring about. And it's not pretty.
Certainly privatization can work. JR seems to have a decent reputation (obviously not without fault). But gaming things like overtime rules is a cultural problem, one that you're not going to solve with mandates or privatization. For quite a while the drivers at San Francisco's public transit agency were forbidden to strike. Instead you'd get sickouts and work slowdowns.
Certainly privatization can work. JR seems to have a decent reputation (obviously not without fault). But gaming things like overtime rules is a cultural problem, one that you're not going to solve with mandates or privatization. For quite a while the drivers at San Francisco's public transit agency were forbidden to strike. Instead you'd get sickouts and work slowdowns.
> As an American reading this
The working conditions at SNCF are not even imaginable for an American.
We are taking unlimited sick days, between 28 and 38 days off a year excluding sick days, 10 bank holidays, retirement between 50 and 60 with pensions calculated on the last few years of work, subvention on train tickets for family members. That’s while working less than 40 hours a week and despite that they still manage to strike at least a week a year generally when it’s the most annoying for people actually working.
The working conditions at SNCF are not even imaginable for an American.
We are taking unlimited sick days, between 28 and 38 days off a year excluding sick days, 10 bank holidays, retirement between 50 and 60 with pensions calculated on the last few years of work, subvention on train tickets for family members. That’s while working less than 40 hours a week and despite that they still manage to strike at least a week a year generally when it’s the most annoying for people actually working.
> unlimited sick days
Everyone with a French employment contract does
> between 28 and 38 days off a year excluding sick days, 10 bank holidays
25 days is the legal minimum, more is common in many industries, including most engineering fields. Of course we all have the same bank holidays in the country.
> retirement between 50 and 60 with pensions calculated on the last few years of work
Yep, that's a good one. A relic from when their life expectancy was much shorter due to coal. Indeed that's hard to justify.
> subvention on train tickets for family members
Annoying too... but I'm not sure it's significant.
> That’s while working less than 40 hours a week
The legal working time in France is 35h/week, if you do more than that your employer must compensate in a way or another. That SNCF abides by that law isn't shocking, what is shocking is that our NHS doesn't.
> they still manage to strike at least a week a year generally when it’s the most annoying for people actually working.
The latest strike was about the freight branch that is being sold to competitors to please the EU commission... Not exactly a request for more champagne next to the coffee machine of the drivers. [0]
I, too, dislike the SNCF because my trains are unreliable and expensive, and their customer support is absolute rubbish, but you clearly are arguing in bad faith and repeating whatever is in our current wave of reactionary media, all without having provided a single source yet.
[0] https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2024/11/21/dema...
Everyone with a French employment contract does
> between 28 and 38 days off a year excluding sick days, 10 bank holidays
25 days is the legal minimum, more is common in many industries, including most engineering fields. Of course we all have the same bank holidays in the country.
> retirement between 50 and 60 with pensions calculated on the last few years of work
Yep, that's a good one. A relic from when their life expectancy was much shorter due to coal. Indeed that's hard to justify.
> subvention on train tickets for family members
Annoying too... but I'm not sure it's significant.
> That’s while working less than 40 hours a week
The legal working time in France is 35h/week, if you do more than that your employer must compensate in a way or another. That SNCF abides by that law isn't shocking, what is shocking is that our NHS doesn't.
> they still manage to strike at least a week a year generally when it’s the most annoying for people actually working.
The latest strike was about the freight branch that is being sold to competitors to please the EU commission... Not exactly a request for more champagne next to the coffee machine of the drivers. [0]
I, too, dislike the SNCF because my trains are unreliable and expensive, and their customer support is absolute rubbish, but you clearly are arguing in bad faith and repeating whatever is in our current wave of reactionary media, all without having provided a single source yet.
[0] https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2024/11/21/dema...
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The price really depends how much in advance you are booking, DB price are outrages on the same day but unbelivable cheap three weeks before, i really dont get the business logic behind that, the spread is like 19.99 to 240
Where's your hometown and when do you travel?
That's not my experience at all. I live in France with no car and I don't fly domestic (obviously).
I'll do Paris to Lyon (400 km) during peak holidays in next few days. That's €192 back and forth, for 2 persons. And I don't have any preferential prices.
I'll go further than Lyon, right to a ski station actually. That's another €100 for 2 persons, back and forth.
So that's about 1300 km at €150 /pax at one of the most expensive time of the year.
That's not my experience at all. I live in France with no car and I don't fly domestic (obviously).
I'll do Paris to Lyon (400 km) during peak holidays in next few days. That's €192 back and forth, for 2 persons. And I don't have any preferential prices.
I'll go further than Lyon, right to a ski station actually. That's another €100 for 2 persons, back and forth.
So that's about 1300 km at €150 /pax at one of the most expensive time of the year.
I forgot to mention that the price ranges I cited refer to DB (German railway company); I’ve edited my initial post to clarify.
I don’t know the pricing at SNCF (French railway company).
I don’t know the pricing at SNCF (French railway company).
8 hours to go 1000km?
You could fly from NYC to Berlin which is 6x the distance and the American would get there at the same time as their counterpart leaving Paris.
For people traveling there rail networks is it like a tourist thing for train buffs? At least with a maglev train you can make the case that the it might be on par with an equivalent flight.
You could fly from NYC to Berlin which is 6x the distance and the American would get there at the same time as their counterpart leaving Paris.
For people traveling there rail networks is it like a tourist thing for train buffs? At least with a maglev train you can make the case that the it might be on par with an equivalent flight.
Trains are more comfy, almost silent and way more convenient. You don't have to start traveling to the airport 3 hours in advance. There is also this little silly thing people talk about called global warming
You can't just compare flight time vs time on train: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42500989
This is not really an apples-to-apples comparison. I just googled it and the flight time alone from EWR to BER is 8 hours. You'll need to add several hours for getting to the airport, security, immigration, checkin, waiting for luggage, etc.
Yes but the train from Manhattan to Newark is an additional hour and is terribly slow, taking almost as long as the subway to JFK. Going by car is as slow or slower if you get caught in traffic.
Buy you'll have spent half of that flight time in traffic going in and out of airports, as well as in the actual terminal.
Taking a flight means losing a minimum of half a day, regardless of the actual flight time.
Taking a flight means losing a minimum of half a day, regardless of the actual flight time.
You are right that 8 hours for 1000 km is rubbish for a train.
Modern trains can do that in 3 hours, on conventional rail (no maglev needed).
The trains can do that already for 40 years (the ICE could to 400 km/h in 1988):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_Express
The problem is that in contrast to China, Japan, France, and Italy, Germany does not build straight tracks that allow that speed.
If you put a Chinese straight train track between Berlin and Paris, the travel time would be 3 hours, without sacrificing comfort.
Modern trains can do that in 3 hours, on conventional rail (no maglev needed).
The trains can do that already for 40 years (the ICE could to 400 km/h in 1988):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_Express
The problem is that in contrast to China, Japan, France, and Italy, Germany does not build straight tracks that allow that speed.
If you put a Chinese straight train track between Berlin and Paris, the travel time would be 3 hours, without sacrificing comfort.
Of course we do value our travelling time greatly here in Europe, hence why RyanAir is a big thing, i.e. even though we're treated as worst than cattle people still choose it because of the (low) prices and because of those much shorter travel times.
News items like this one are just propaganda pieces pushed from top to down by the mainstream media in a futile (imo) attempt to convince the uncivilised and not-environmentally friendly masses that there is a good-enough alternative to cheap flights. There isn't, cause these train-rides are both a lot more expensive and they take a lot more time compared to taking RyanAir.
Basically the well-off middle-classes and higher have become a little scared that their summer properties located just a few meters from the seashore might get damaged in any one way (rising sea levels, stronger storms etc), ditto for their other properties located in the middle of forest somewhere close to a mountain (like forest fires), and hence why they try (through the mainstream media that they fully control) to tie us down to where we currently happen to live, no more tourist-ing to Cyprus, the Cyclades in Greece or to Southern Spain in order to have a cheaper glass of beer (or several more), and, God forbid, trying to have some (short-lived) proletarian fun in this stressful life.
News items like this one are just propaganda pieces pushed from top to down by the mainstream media in a futile (imo) attempt to convince the uncivilised and not-environmentally friendly masses that there is a good-enough alternative to cheap flights. There isn't, cause these train-rides are both a lot more expensive and they take a lot more time compared to taking RyanAir.
Basically the well-off middle-classes and higher have become a little scared that their summer properties located just a few meters from the seashore might get damaged in any one way (rising sea levels, stronger storms etc), ditto for their other properties located in the middle of forest somewhere close to a mountain (like forest fires), and hence why they try (through the mainstream media that they fully control) to tie us down to where we currently happen to live, no more tourist-ing to Cyprus, the Cyclades in Greece or to Southern Spain in order to have a cheaper glass of beer (or several more), and, God forbid, trying to have some (short-lived) proletarian fun in this stressful life.
From city center to city center by train vs airplane
Rough estimate for a flight:
- 36 min train from Gare de l’Est to Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport
- 90 min arrival before your flight (security, check-in, gate closes before flight leaves, ..)
- 100 min flight time
- 20 min getting out of the airport
- 30 min taxi to Berlin Hbf (assuming no traffic)
I think if you have large bags you can add an extra hour (max) even as check-in will take longer, and you'll have to wait for your bag.
Which makes it 8,5 hours vs 4.6 hours, or 5.6 hours with bags. (I added 30 minutes to the train as you probably need to be there a little early.)
Having done this a couple of times (Amsterdam to Berlin, which is about the same) with both modes of transport. I have to say I prefer the train if I have the time. Much more relaxed way of transportation. You can work the whole way there, and there are ok lunch options on the train.
Rough estimate for a flight:
- 36 min train from Gare de l’Est to Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport
- 90 min arrival before your flight (security, check-in, gate closes before flight leaves, ..)
- 100 min flight time
- 20 min getting out of the airport
- 30 min taxi to Berlin Hbf (assuming no traffic)
I think if you have large bags you can add an extra hour (max) even as check-in will take longer, and you'll have to wait for your bag.
Which makes it 8,5 hours vs 4.6 hours, or 5.6 hours with bags. (I added 30 minutes to the train as you probably need to be there a little early.)
Having done this a couple of times (Amsterdam to Berlin, which is about the same) with both modes of transport. I have to say I prefer the train if I have the time. Much more relaxed way of transportation. You can work the whole way there, and there are ok lunch options on the train.
The majority of the air travel time is spent in the airport, doing "administrative" things.
If air travel could be more streamlined (aka, no need for things like security, check-in, like how a train would be), then trains are absolutely uncompetitive on speed.
The only advantage of a train would be that you could more easily sleep in one - so an overnight trip is less tiring, and you save on cost of an extra night of hotel stay.
If air travel could be more streamlined (aka, no need for things like security, check-in, like how a train would be), then trains are absolutely uncompetitive on speed.
The only advantage of a train would be that you could more easily sleep in one - so an overnight trip is less tiring, and you save on cost of an extra night of hotel stay.
I also find all the interruptions while you're on the plane itself tedious. Waiting for all the luggage wrangling, the safety briefing, the welcome from the crew, the message from the captain, the announcement about food or drinks, another message from the captain, various seatbelt-related announcements, something about duty free, and on and on. And they're all in that verbose style, like ChatGPT. Makes using any in-flight entertainment miserable.
It is tedious but it doesn't cause delay. The briefing happens while the airplane is taxying. The message from the captain I'm flight. The food or drinks is a side business (also happening on some trains with wagonlit), same as with the duty free crap.
I agree I'd like more peace but this stuff isn't making it slower.
I agree I'd like more peace but this stuff isn't making it slower.
And there's more to see out of the window, and you can take breaks (leave the train for a couple of hours to explore a city along the way, then continue on the next).
And of course it's much better on CO2 emissions.
But trains need a lot of infrastructure and long delays are frequent.
And of course it's much better on CO2 emissions.
But trains need a lot of infrastructure and long delays are frequent.
On most train tickets you cannot hop off for a couple hours. That would require a new ticket.
[citation needed]
This is quite common in Blighty; there is no need for another ticket (outside some time restricted fares where the ability to stop is limited). Indeed, it can be nice hopping off at a new city for a mooch around if you have time to do so.
(Only slightly off-topic; We have the phenomenon of 'split tickets', where it can be cheaper to buy two tickets from A --> B --> C rather than one ticket from A --> C even when the train stops at B anyway! You don't even need to get out of the train at B if you don't wish to do so. Our ticketing system is a mess.)
This is quite common in Blighty; there is no need for another ticket (outside some time restricted fares where the ability to stop is limited). Indeed, it can be nice hopping off at a new city for a mooch around if you have time to do so.
(Only slightly off-topic; We have the phenomenon of 'split tickets', where it can be cheaper to buy two tickets from A --> B --> C rather than one ticket from A --> C even when the train stops at B anyway! You don't even need to get out of the train at B if you don't wish to do so. Our ticketing system is a mess.)
> [citation needed]
All saver tickets in German (which is what most people use), and most TGV tickets (even non saver) are bound to specific trains at specific times.
https://www.bahn.de/faq/was-bedeutet-zugbindung
The UK is the odd exception here. But it also doesn't have real high speed trains, except from the one that leaves the country, where hopping off is impossible (unless you want to end up in a dark tunnel under the sea and be arrested afterwards).
All saver tickets in German (which is what most people use), and most TGV tickets (even non saver) are bound to specific trains at specific times.
https://www.bahn.de/faq/was-bedeutet-zugbindung
The UK is the odd exception here. But it also doesn't have real high speed trains, except from the one that leaves the country, where hopping off is impossible (unless you want to end up in a dark tunnel under the sea and be arrested afterwards).
[deleted]
Advances are also extremely common in/to/from England and sales are on the up. The government is working hard to replace off peak singles with advances.
Flexible tickets are becoming unaffordable for certain journeys such as those on the ECML with LNER (aka The Government)
Flexible tickets are becoming unaffordable for certain journeys such as those on the ECML with LNER (aka The Government)
Respectfully, I'm incredulous that you think trains need dramatically more infrastructure than aircraft. For that matter, I'd peg aircraft infrastructure as worse - the asphalt, the noise, the culling of all vegetation save scrubgrass, and all spread out over a massive area. At least a commuter train station can be (partially) covered and (IIRC from Germany) multi-layered
Notably, I say noise, and I suspect reasonable people will point out how not-quiet trains can be. I think the only argument I need to make for how much quieter they are than aircraft is pointing out on a map where the (commuter) train yards are (routinely city-center) vs airfields (typically the outskirts, far from where people live)
Aircraft require less infrastructure between points, but when you get there a rail yard doesn't require multi-kilometer runways (plural) and taxiways.
PS - My god, I hadn't realized how pro-train / anti-aircraft I was until I started on; even having previously worked in aviation, suggesting it was a damn good idea to leave. Aircraft may be an incredible feat of human engineering, but like the personal automobile, we as a society have taken it too far and used them in places that could do with fewer of them, IMO.
Notably, I say noise, and I suspect reasonable people will point out how not-quiet trains can be. I think the only argument I need to make for how much quieter they are than aircraft is pointing out on a map where the (commuter) train yards are (routinely city-center) vs airfields (typically the outskirts, far from where people live)
Aircraft require less infrastructure between points, but when you get there a rail yard doesn't require multi-kilometer runways (plural) and taxiways.
PS - My god, I hadn't realized how pro-train / anti-aircraft I was until I started on; even having previously worked in aviation, suggesting it was a damn good idea to leave. Aircraft may be an incredible feat of human engineering, but like the personal automobile, we as a society have taken it too far and used them in places that could do with fewer of them, IMO.
The stations arent the hard part, it's the rails. Cities were built around the train tracks. Say we wanted to double them all for more capacity, that means tearing down a lot of expensive real estate to make room.
Well-maintained, electric (obviously) commuter trains aren't that noisy. It's less annoying than a moderately busy road.
In London complaints about noise from stations was more common at some point than from the train itself. ("The train now approaching platform 2 is the midnight forty-five South West Trains service to London Waterloo calling at London Waterloo only. This train is formed of eight carriages. If you see anything suspicious, call the British Transport Police on 1984. See it, say it, suck on it.")
In London complaints about noise from stations was more common at some point than from the train itself. ("The train now approaching platform 2 is the midnight forty-five South West Trains service to London Waterloo calling at London Waterloo only. This train is formed of eight carriages. If you see anything suspicious, call the British Transport Police on 1984. See it, say it, suck on it.")
that experience still exists flying private. You submit a passport photo the day before for prechecking then get a quick verify at the terminal. Its max 45 minutes from arrival to walking to plane and going. There is no reason we couldnt be doing that for all flights combined with marginally better pilot security. We arent because government has been (n the path of stupid for so long that it cant seem to change
for frequent flyers, radiation exposure is also a factor.
This is usually a misunderstanding of risk. I think the last stats I read were that per 18,000,000 miles of air travel for 200 people, you'd expect 1 extra person to end up with cancer. Over a baseline risk of 25% of people getting cancer, that's negligible.
Doesn't this kind of argument work the other way around as well?
If we get rid of other considerations, and train travel could be more streamlined (strap a jet engine on a train, no need to gain altitude), then airplanes are absolutely uncompetitive on speed.
If we get rid of other considerations, and train travel could be more streamlined (strap a jet engine on a train, no need to gain altitude), then airplanes are absolutely uncompetitive on speed.
This was always the upsetting thing about Eurostar/Eurotunnel between UK and France. In my naive teens I dreamt of how wonderful it would be if we joined Shengen and could literally just hop on the train to Paris. But sadly we went the other way and completely left - and now it’s as bad or worse than any airport.
While the Eurostar pre-boarding times are not great, they are much better that an airport.
I usually arrive 40 minutes before the train starts moving, including large luggage (30 minutes before is the limit at which the ticket gates close). There is no waiting for you luggage on arrival because you always have it in your hand.
This is also possible because the distance between check-in gates and the train is only around 50 meters in all 3 stops (London, Brussels, Paris). On those 50 meters you have the luggage scanners, passport control, and the waiting hall.
Compare that to kilometers of walking at Heathrow Airport.
I usually arrive 40 minutes before the train starts moving, including large luggage (30 minutes before is the limit at which the ticket gates close). There is no waiting for you luggage on arrival because you always have it in your hand.
This is also possible because the distance between check-in gates and the train is only around 50 meters in all 3 stops (London, Brussels, Paris). On those 50 meters you have the luggage scanners, passport control, and the waiting hall.
Compare that to kilometers of walking at Heathrow Airport.
There is also a night train, which I find even more convenient for long distances.
Sure it’s slower, but you’ll spend most of the time sleeping and it saves you one night at a hotel.
https://www.nightjet.com/de/reiseziele/frankreich
Sure it’s slower, but you’ll spend most of the time sleeping and it saves you one night at a hotel.
https://www.nightjet.com/de/reiseziele/frankreich
The night trains are great. It's quite comfortable, you get there in the morning allowing for a full day (after dropping off your bags at the hotel) of work/tourism, and I especially hope Nightjet and other night train companies converts all of their trains to the modern mini cabins[0].
They're incredible.
[0]: https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-genera...
They're incredible.
[0]: https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-genera...
Doesn't work for all of us. I can peacefully fall asleep from the noise of a CFM on an Airbus. On a train, rickety being chucked around all the time and always too hot, nope.
I can do 10h on a plane fine. 3h on a train does me in every time.
I can do 10h on a plane fine. 3h on a train does me in every time.
I can't sleep in a seat, which rules out aircraft for any reasonable carbon or dollar price.
At least on trains I have a chance. Googling how the climate controlled worked before my previous trip helped, but that followed a hot journey.
At least on trains I have a chance. Googling how the climate controlled worked before my previous trip helped, but that followed a hot journey.
Night ferrys and night trains are my favourite way of travelling when on vacation.
Comfortable and comfortable. It's certainly much better than spending a night on a seat. But most people won't sleep well. It's noisy and either too hot or too cold. The bed is hard, narrow and often too short for tall people.
I have spent many nights on trains in various countries, seats, floor and berth. I will prefer a couchette or sleeper if the price is somewhat reasonable. But I won't live in the expectation to get something comfortable. Just less uncomfortable.
I have spent many nights on trains in various countries, seats, floor and berth. I will prefer a couchette or sleeper if the price is somewhat reasonable. But I won't live in the expectation to get something comfortable. Just less uncomfortable.
Unfortunately more expensive than a plane+hotel and has to be booked well in advance. It's worth the experience, at least for me, but it's not a real alternative.
When I click on a date on that website, e.g. 16.01. I see tickets for 69.90€ on the coach wagon from Berlin to Paris.
When you said night train you can sleep on I assumed sleeper cars. But to be fair, I always looked at trains to/from Vienna, maybe that's the exception in prices.
Coach is a sleeper car, you just share the cabin with up to 5 people on bunk beds. Although on newer carriages (which I think is the one that goes to Paris) those are sleeping capsules where you have more privacy.
I took the trip to Vienna in one of the old bunk bed cars for 60€ and it was fine. I liked the experience of chatting with the fellow passengers in the cabin that you usually don’t have on a normal train ride.
I took the trip to Vienna in one of the old bunk bed cars for 60€ and it was fine. I liked the experience of chatting with the fellow passengers in the cabin that you usually don’t have on a normal train ride.
Also, if you don't want to go to the bar in the train, you can totally picnic without having to pay airport level of extortion for drink and food. You can bring your own food on a plane but not drinks and if you are having lunch in the plane but it is just not that comfortable, better doing that in the terminal.
Totally agree.
I used to go to Holland and Germany from France back when I was living there and even though at the time it would take longer (slower and less trains) the trip was totally worth it: I even met people who eventually became friends. Now, when flying from Spain to France (every couple of years), even though the flight is less than two hours, the entire trip is more than four, and much less fun or enjoyable as far as I'm concerned. For the moment, it's just easier to take the plane but that's supposed to change... We'll see.
I used to go to Holland and Germany from France back when I was living there and even though at the time it would take longer (slower and less trains) the trip was totally worth it: I even met people who eventually became friends. Now, when flying from Spain to France (every couple of years), even though the flight is less than two hours, the entire trip is more than four, and much less fun or enjoyable as far as I'm concerned. For the moment, it's just easier to take the plane but that's supposed to change... We'll see.
"I have to say I prefer the train if I have the time. Much more relaxed way of transportation."
Me too, but I worry a bit that it might change. A big part of the inconvenience of flying is the security checks[1].
I only see these ramped up for trains as well. Look at the EuroStar for a glimpse into the future. I am afraid it will only take one bigger attack and we will turn train stations into airports security-wise.
[1] The other big one is airports being far from centres.
Me too, but I worry a bit that it might change. A big part of the inconvenience of flying is the security checks[1].
I only see these ramped up for trains as well. Look at the EuroStar for a glimpse into the future. I am afraid it will only take one bigger attack and we will turn train stations into airports security-wise.
[1] The other big one is airports being far from centres.
That won't happen outside a handful of high-profile routes. Railway stations are far too small for security checks with the passenger volume they are handling.
Terrorist attacks on trains and railway stations are not that rare. The last major one was in November in Pakistan.
Terrorist attacks on trains and railway stations are not that rare. The last major one was in November in Pakistan.
don't think that will stop them. if china can do security checks with xray of any bags in the subway, then trains in europe can do it too.
The Channel Tunnel is unique in Europe for being a long, undersea tunnel.
No other train in Britain or France has security checks.
No other train in Britain or France has security checks.
The Gotthard tunnel is also in Europe and some kilometers longer than the Channel tunnel. I think that one has security checks and the other not has nothing to do with one being under water and the other under rock. I'd be very surprised if their security measures will not harmonize in the long run.
Fires in the Channel Tunnel could weaken the tunnel and cause it to flood catastrophically. This came closer to happening than the engineers expected with an accident on a train carrying hazardous goods.
The security checks are fairly minor. They are mostly looking for gas canisters and explosives.
The security checks are fairly minor. They are mostly looking for gas canisters and explosives.
> Look at the EuroStar for a glimpse into the future
This bullshit also happens in Barcelona Sants for the long-distance trains.
This bullshit also happens in Barcelona Sants for the long-distance trains.
Same for Rotterdam - London, the planes don't fly to the city center + the Train is a premium experience (power, wifi, second class seats on train similar to first class on plane, little cafe to walk to and eat drink, arrives in the city center). All in all this make the time similar but the experience by train much better.
Indeed that is the case there but you have to evaluate every journey based on a number of factors.
Recently I had to get a train 250km in Italy and it would have been quicker, cheaper and less stressful to fly to London and back due to the problems.
Recently I had to get a train 250km in Italy and it would have been quicker, cheaper and less stressful to fly to London and back due to the problems.
Not to add the comparatively smaller CO2 footprint
There is a lot less capacity, though. And I don't see how that can be improved without massive investments.
Its cool that there is another train connections, saving time and has no need to switch trains!
Also kind a funny to see in the comments that a lot of people counter the good news with some kind of bad takes about the german rail way.
Just be happy about the new connection :)
Here in Norway unfortunately flying is still the fastest mode of transportation between major cities. It takes 7-8 hours between Bergen and Oslo for example. For frequent business travelers it’s not a feasible option. I wish the government was prioritizing improving trains and rail infrastructure but instead they are investing heavily on highways and electric flights.
It is an absolutely stunning train journey though.
Infernal will be happy. I heard their heart is hungry for love.
Faster by five hours?
It shouldn't even be 3-4 hours total, with the speeds modern trains can achieve... I guess that's the improvement (from some slow train to a faster version).
It shouldn't even be 3-4 hours total, with the speeds modern trains can achieve... I guess that's the improvement (from some slow train to a faster version).
Until we factor in the cost of a plane trip to the community into the ticket price (ie carbon tax), trains will not be able to compete with air travel for transeuropean trips.
In optimal case, where trains don't get cancelled, or stop endless times in the middle of nowhere.