Grim Fandango Puzzle Document (1996) [pdf](gameshelf.jmac.org)
gameshelf.jmac.org
Grim Fandango Puzzle Document (1996) [pdf]
http://gameshelf.jmac.org/2008/11/13/GrimPuzzleDoc_small.pdf
40 comments
God I loved that lobby and the art deco + mexican combination art style. I found a high res version of that mural as a wallpaper at some point but am coming up short for the link right now.
That's wild. My dentist was in that building for quite a while as well.
Probably the same one?
For a bit more historical context, see the 2008 blog post that originally accompanied this PDF: http://gameshelf.jmac.org/2008/11/grim-fandango-puzzle-desig...
> ”We didn’t have the last puzzle designed when I wrote that document, so I wrote two nonsense paragraphs and then overlapped them in the file so it would look like the final puzzle description was in there, but obscured by a print formatting error. That way I could turn the document in by the deadline.”
I loved the first and last page...
[first] "This report, by its very length, defends itself against the risk of being read." -Winston Churchill
[last] "To protect this document, please restrict your fallen tears of joy to this box. Thank you!"
[first] "This report, by its very length, defends itself against the risk of being read." -Winston Churchill
[last] "To protect this document, please restrict your fallen tears of joy to this box. Thank you!"
It is honestly one of my favorite documents. With the thought put behind it, it is of no surprise the game was such a well crafted masterpiece.
Most software work tends to move away from this kind of ... I don't want to say documentation, we have better documentation tools than ever, more-so a level of writing in general that is more 'human', be it written documents at length or well commented code.
Another one is `The Sims` https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43064273
I recall a Warcraft III one I once saw, that went into technical details on the tooling/scripting packaged with the game. That was another great document too, but I don't have it :)
Most software work tends to move away from this kind of ... I don't want to say documentation, we have better documentation tools than ever, more-so a level of writing in general that is more 'human', be it written documents at length or well commented code.
Another one is `The Sims` https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43064273
I recall a Warcraft III one I once saw, that went into technical details on the tooling/scripting packaged with the game. That was another great document too, but I don't have it :)
I feel a game like FF7 which came out in this era didn't have a document like this. OR if it did, it was put together AFTER the game was finished.
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I got to ogle a game design doc for a Sonic the Hedgehog game that was never produced. And yeah its very similar, except it had way more visual layout. Absolutely everything sonic could do was amazingly visualised and described.
Perhaps my favorite game of all time. I liked all of the Lucasarts adventure games, but this one was special to me. Completed it 3 times since it came out. I think it is something about the characters, the story, the world and the ambience in it.
I wonder how this document was used? Did they write all of it before implementing the game? Or was it written in parallel to making the game, as a reference?
I wonder how this document was used? Did they write all of it before implementing the game? Or was it written in parallel to making the game, as a reference?
It was all written at once, during the pre-production phase. We had daily meetings to brainstorm settings, characters, goals, puzzles, etc. The next day Peter Chan would come in with sketches or storyboards. Meanwhile I tinkered on making the engine work. Once the doc was done (and some locations/puzzles/characters were cut out to reduce the production cost estimate) and the engine was able to display one character walking around one temporary room, we went into production, where the team size ramped up and we churned through the document building locations, modeling, texturing, and animating characters, etc. This doc became foundational for anyone joining the team to learn what the game was supposed to be like.
There was a GDC presentation by the iMUSE team (Michael Land, Peter McConnel and Clint Bajakian) in like 2000 or 2001 that I wish I could relive and share. They showed some of the iMUSE interface and how they would mock up the interactive soundtrack.
They started with cornering Tim and getting him to describe each area/room, including the soundscape, and then they would temp in music and sound effects and then went and got a lot of SF street musicians to record a lot of the music.
I remember them showing a build of the game that had Tim describing each scene instead of the final audio.
It was amazing to see behind the curtain.
They started with cornering Tim and getting him to describe each area/room, including the soundscape, and then they would temp in music and sound effects and then went and got a lot of SF street musicians to record a lot of the music.
I remember them showing a build of the game that had Tim describing each scene instead of the final audio.
It was amazing to see behind the curtain.
I’d just like to say thank you from the bottom of my heart for making my childhood and engagement with computers all that more magical. I went on the make a career and a livelihood from them and games like yours shaped me.
You guys must have impacted thousands upon thousands of lives with your hard work and creativity.
You guys must have impacted thousands upon thousands of lives with your hard work and creativity.
As a funny aside, I had applied to lucas arts around 1996 and never heard back from them. I ended up getting a job at industrial light and magic (as they were both companies under lucas digital) thinking I could then transfer over to lucas arts.
I have a near identical form letter job offer from lucas digital as Tim Shafer posted re his application: https://www.doublefine.com/news/twenty-years-only-a-few-tear...
But we would visit for the company store, and I would be nosy and go talk to people. This was during production of grim fandango and there was a tangible ramp up of stress in that building as the release approached. I remember one of the testers sitting there staring at the manny character on his screen and bemoaning, "I used to love playing games".
The end result was truly a standout though.
I have a near identical form letter job offer from lucas digital as Tim Shafer posted re his application: https://www.doublefine.com/news/twenty-years-only-a-few-tear...
But we would visit for the company store, and I would be nosy and go talk to people. This was during production of grim fandango and there was a tangible ramp up of stress in that building as the release approached. I remember one of the testers sitting there staring at the manny character on his screen and bemoaning, "I used to love playing games".
The end result was truly a standout though.
Wow, didn't expect an answer straight from the horses mouth :) Thanks for making one of the best games of all time!
Thanks for all the fun and I only pirated one game you were involved with!
and the music! I remember saving snippets of the music that were posted online well before the soundtrack was available (and taping some of the background music). Great stuff, capitalizing on the San Francisco music scene. Great wikipedia page on it now (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Grim_Fandango)
A fantastic game in terms of atmosphere, artwork, characters and story but I found the puzzles to be too difficult and/or illogical and gave up pretty early into the plot.
Overall I remember being somewhat disappointed because of my struggle to make progress. Maybe my expectations had been too high - I was a recent convert to point n' click at the time and of course LucasArts being masters of the genre, meant my anticipation had reached fever pitch.
Overall I remember being somewhat disappointed because of my struggle to make progress. Maybe my expectations had been too high - I was a recent convert to point n' click at the time and of course LucasArts being masters of the genre, meant my anticipation had reached fever pitch.
The puzzle design in Grim Fandango really isn't anything to write home about, and if that's the only reason you play adventure games, you're going to be disappointed. But the characters, writing, art, and sheer style are all so good that it makes up for it in my opinion.
Grim Fandango is probably even better now, since you can easily look up solutions to some of the more frustrating puzzles. The remastered version is also very good, changing just enough to make it play well on modern systems, without fundamentally altering the experience.
Grim Fandango is probably even better now, since you can easily look up solutions to some of the more frustrating puzzles. The remastered version is also very good, changing just enough to make it play well on modern systems, without fundamentally altering the experience.
I love the game and I'm nostalgic for when games were extremely difficult but for many the best way to experience Grim Fandango without such frustration might be by watching a commentary-free playthrough on youtube. I don't feel viewing the work is meaningfully diminished by not being the button clicker. Once one is familiar with the work there is a great developer commentary that is available on youtube also.
And the voice acting was amazing. Especially for a game.
I think I have rose colored glasses as I remember the game being difficult in the sense of lots of walking around trying to find the solution to the last couple of puzzles. Having played the remaster, it was clear how clunky the controls were. But wow, I still love that game.
I think I have rose colored glasses as I remember the game being difficult in the sense of lots of walking around trying to find the solution to the last couple of puzzles. Having played the remaster, it was clear how clunky the controls were. But wow, I still love that game.
Totally agree. I must've restarted at least three times because the design/atmosphere was enticing, but I couldn't engage with the puzzles
Yeah. It's best played these days with a walkthrough on hand to look up any puzzle that isn't immediately obvious. The vast majority of the puzzles aren't worth the effort. Great art, story, voice acting, and music, though.
Can relate, I was too blockheaded to get most of the clues. Played it on a Pentium 150, 32 MB RAM and there was a lot of idle time waiting for the rooms and places to load, which added some more frustration.
But at some point I followed instructions to complete the game along to the end. It's probably fair to say that following the journey of the game is one of the fondest memories of my life.
I highly recommend the remastered version from 2015 on Steam. I bought it and did another playthrough. It brought back so many emotions, and getting insight from the developers let me really connect with them.
But at some point I followed instructions to complete the game along to the end. It's probably fair to say that following the journey of the game is one of the fondest memories of my life.
I highly recommend the remastered version from 2015 on Steam. I bought it and did another playthrough. It brought back so many emotions, and getting insight from the developers let me really connect with them.
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Same. I played until the part where we get to a forest and watched playthrough after that. Watching the playthrough confirmed that I made the right decision.
It is interesting to look back on the genre given that, as far as I know, it either died sometime in the 90s or grew into something unrecognisable.
I suspect there is a hint in the name of the document. I can't tell how these "puzzles" are meant to be puzzles and to this day I never figured out how people were meant to solve them in the context of the game. The Discworld series as I recall were terrible for this, but these puzzle structure diagrams just don't make sense to me. What is the player being challenged to do? Grim Fandango is trying to tell a story but it won't reveal what the story is until after the player has already figured it out through telepathy and brute force clicking.
For all these games were landmarks it was an era where it wasn't obvious what a computer game could or should do to be interesting and entertaining. Something like Return of the Obra Dinn captures the intent of these games (storytelling through close inspection) much more cleanly.
I suspect there is a hint in the name of the document. I can't tell how these "puzzles" are meant to be puzzles and to this day I never figured out how people were meant to solve them in the context of the game. The Discworld series as I recall were terrible for this, but these puzzle structure diagrams just don't make sense to me. What is the player being challenged to do? Grim Fandango is trying to tell a story but it won't reveal what the story is until after the player has already figured it out through telepathy and brute force clicking.
For all these games were landmarks it was an era where it wasn't obvious what a computer game could or should do to be interesting and entertaining. Something like Return of the Obra Dinn captures the intent of these games (storytelling through close inspection) much more cleanly.
Perhaps I’m biased because I played the game when I was 14 and had much more free time to dedicate to it, but it’s my impression that Grim Fandango was known for having few of the rubber-chicken-with-a-pulley-in-it type of puzzles.
As for your question about “what is the player being challenged to do?” I had to sit and think for a bit. I think the most straightforward answer is to just think abstractly and make connections in the context of a humorous noir story. You certainly aren’t being challenged to solve a mystery, but I’m not sure it really matters. I’m not sure if you mean it like Chess challenges you to vanquish your opponent and The Witness demands color/pattern/maze analysis.
As for your question about “what is the player being challenged to do?” I had to sit and think for a bit. I think the most straightforward answer is to just think abstractly and make connections in the context of a humorous noir story. You certainly aren’t being challenged to solve a mystery, but I’m not sure it really matters. I’m not sure if you mean it like Chess challenges you to vanquish your opponent and The Witness demands color/pattern/maze analysis.
> I think the most straightforward answer is to just think abstractly and make connections in the context of a humorous noir story.
I can't easily reconcile that with the linked puzzle document. If I pick on something at random (page 16, Puzzle #12: Get Starter [0]). I don't see any particular advantage to abstract thinking or even superficially understanding the scene. It looks like the player is expected to brute-force solutions. The situation overall is pretty entertaining and we learn a little bit about the world; but the actual puzzle - even with the design docs - doesn't give any hints about how players are meant to come up with that solution thoughtfully. The design doc doesn't seem to think that clues, hints or the like are important. If the symbology of using spiderwebs as sling-shots with bones is a standard trope then I suppose maybe I'm just out of it - but I don't think it is. That isn't how spiderwebs work. It seems logically suspect even in the game's own context - if the scythe can't cut the web, why can't we use it to slingshot? Or if not getting the scythe stuck is critical, why do we need the scythe at all? Manny can just grip the bone.
It isn't bad as such; these puzzles can be solved and I enjoyed a bunch of these games with walkthroughs in hand. But it is easy to see why the market for point & clicks evaporated - the gameplay loop is weak and the puzzle aspect is also weak.
[0] And we can see what that became in the game here - https://youtu.be/jIoSL-uSwfs?t=4223
I can't easily reconcile that with the linked puzzle document. If I pick on something at random (page 16, Puzzle #12: Get Starter [0]). I don't see any particular advantage to abstract thinking or even superficially understanding the scene. It looks like the player is expected to brute-force solutions. The situation overall is pretty entertaining and we learn a little bit about the world; but the actual puzzle - even with the design docs - doesn't give any hints about how players are meant to come up with that solution thoughtfully. The design doc doesn't seem to think that clues, hints or the like are important. If the symbology of using spiderwebs as sling-shots with bones is a standard trope then I suppose maybe I'm just out of it - but I don't think it is. That isn't how spiderwebs work. It seems logically suspect even in the game's own context - if the scythe can't cut the web, why can't we use it to slingshot? Or if not getting the scythe stuck is critical, why do we need the scythe at all? Manny can just grip the bone.
It isn't bad as such; these puzzles can be solved and I enjoyed a bunch of these games with walkthroughs in hand. But it is easy to see why the market for point & clicks evaporated - the gameplay loop is weak and the puzzle aspect is also weak.
[0] And we can see what that became in the game here - https://youtu.be/jIoSL-uSwfs?t=4223
I recall using cartoon logic to think that the web might be stretchy or bouncy. I’m way from my desk right now so I can’t easily consult the doc, but I recall Manny’s observations filling in whatever else I needed to do to solve the puzzle.
The only puzzle that stumped me was much later in the game, when a pneumatic tube demon asked me questions about Maximino where the answer was a number. I was so used to gleaning info from conversations or Manny’s quips that I didn’t realize the demon was using some bingo number picker or something in the background.
The only puzzle that stumped me was much later in the game, when a pneumatic tube demon asked me questions about Maximino where the answer was a number. I was so used to gleaning info from conversations or Manny’s quips that I didn’t realize the demon was using some bingo number picker or something in the background.
> It is interesting to look back on the genre given that, as far as I know, it either died sometime in the 90s or grew into something unrecognisable.
They're still out there! Scroll down this recent thread for many, many, many examples: https://bsky.app/profile/grundislavgames.bsky.social/post/3l...
They're still out there! Scroll down this recent thread for many, many, many examples: https://bsky.app/profile/grundislavgames.bsky.social/post/3l...
First time a video game moved me emotionally. Lola getting sprouted. It blew my mind.
makes me think of Final Fantasy 7, which came out around the same time
This
It shone, pale as bone
As I stood there alone
And I thought to myself how the moon,
That night, cast its light
On my heart's true delight,
And the reef where her body was strewn.The music in this game..wow..I still listen to the soundtrack many times a year.
Off sick from work - quite by coincidence I decided to start playing the remastered version after hearing many good things and people saying it was the best thing they've ever played etc etc.
I must say, it has not really grabbed me.
It sadly suffers from the common problem of these sort of games where you have to combine seemingly random items to make any progress. There are so far very few actual "puzzles" that you can solve, but instead mainly you just need to brute force the combinations of items to find that One Weird Combination that does something - most recent example: use a piece of coral on a rope so you can then climb the rope... wtf?! This is made even worse by the sheer tedium of having to walk backwards and forwards across the screens and trying everything on everything. Please game designers if you are forcing me to walk around aimlessly please at least make it quick to move around!
I must say, it has not really grabbed me.
It sadly suffers from the common problem of these sort of games where you have to combine seemingly random items to make any progress. There are so far very few actual "puzzles" that you can solve, but instead mainly you just need to brute force the combinations of items to find that One Weird Combination that does something - most recent example: use a piece of coral on a rope so you can then climb the rope... wtf?! This is made even worse by the sheer tedium of having to walk backwards and forwards across the screens and trying everything on everything. Please game designers if you are forcing me to walk around aimlessly please at least make it quick to move around!
What a blast from the past ! Thanks for sharing this.
https://www.doublefine.com/news/450-sutter