US added to international watchlist for rapid decline in civic freedoms(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
US added to international watchlist for rapid decline in civic freedoms
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/09/watchlist-decline-civic-freedoms-civicus
218 comments
It's questionable whether his green card has actually been revoked either. Supposedly that requires proceedings to go through an immigration court and be approved by a judge, and as far as anyone knows that hasn't happened yet.
Which would mean he's just being detained without cause in some unspecified location on no basis
Which would mean he's just being detained without cause in some unspecified location on no basis
> It's questionable whether his green card has actually been revoked either. Supposedly that requires proceedings to go through an immigration court and be approved by a judge, and as far as anyone knows that hasn't happened yet.
From this article: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/3/9/mahmoud-khalil-stude... it says "A US immigration enforcement agent said Khalil’s permanent residency was also being revoked, according to the protest leader’s lawyer."
From this article: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/3/9/mahmoud-khalil-stude... it says "A US immigration enforcement agent said Khalil’s permanent residency was also being revoked, according to the protest leader’s lawyer."
News coverage seems to suggest immigrants can be detained while moved to revoke their green cards are made, but it’s incredibly troubling that no one seems to know what’s up, the government agents arresting him seemed to think he had a student visa and in general there is so little visibility
Trump has stated that citizenship is now Calvinball, only he knows the rules. If they can disappear a permanent resident they can disappear you, too.
[deleted]
it kinda always was calvinball, we just had administrations less keen on pulling out the cruelest interpretation of the laws.
You're suggesting there was a previous administration that rounded up lawful permanent residents without court orders on US soil, on the charge that they committed forbidden speech?
previous administrations have done way worse clear all the way to fdr imprisoning citizens and wilson imprisoning debs.
I don't recall anything FDR did that called the citizenship of anyone into question. Debs was tried and convicted by a court.
> Debs was tried and convicted by a court.
oh yes. and he broke a law passed by congress. that makes it even MORE appalling, as all three branches were complicit in an egregious breach of the constitution, not a single one stopped to hold the line
oh yes. and he broke a law passed by congress. that makes it even MORE appalling, as all three branches were complicit in an egregious breach of the constitution, not a single one stopped to hold the line
Wasn't the internment of Japanese a thing back then?
Yes, but FDR's executive order allowed the military to order the exclusion of anyone from any place. The actual thing a person could be arrested for was passed unanimously by Congress to support the EO and enforced by courts. Even during a real national emergency, nobody was disappearing Japanese people without due process. Korematsu was arrested and tried and convicted and their conviction was upheld by courts of appeal and the Supreme Court. At the time FDR, Congress, the Court, and everybody else thought they were doing due process. There's a lot of daylight between that and what Trump is doing.
> that makes it even MORE appalling, as all three branches were complicit in an egregious breach of the constitution
Congress and SCOTUS are playing calvinball with the Constitution (and civil rights) too.
Congress and SCOTUS are playing calvinball with the Constitution (and civil rights) too.
> Supposedly that requires proceedings to go through an immigration court and be approved by a judge, and as far as anyone knows that hasn't happened yet.
The administration is pretending to goof up following court orders or simply ignoring them, and is lying in court, repeatedly - claiming they "don't know" who is in charge at DOGE.
ICE was arresting people who turned out to be citizens, shuttling them across the country so make it harder for their lawyers to contact them.
Why are you expecting the administration to follow procedures for deporting someone here with a green card?
The administration is pretending to goof up following court orders or simply ignoring them, and is lying in court, repeatedly - claiming they "don't know" who is in charge at DOGE.
ICE was arresting people who turned out to be citizens, shuttling them across the country so make it harder for their lawyers to contact them.
Why are you expecting the administration to follow procedures for deporting someone here with a green card?
Hey, the government can decide whether something qualifies as grounds to revoke a green card or not, that's totally legitimate and I support it.
But, once they do, the guy is still entitled to a lawyer. Vanishing the guy and telling the lawyer that they aren't allowed to know where their client is or whether he's still alive is not legitimate.
But, once they do, the guy is still entitled to a lawyer. Vanishing the guy and telling the lawyer that they aren't allowed to know where their client is or whether he's still alive is not legitimate.
> Hey, the government can decide whether something qualifies as grounds to revoke a green card or not, that's totally legitimate and I support it.
No, it can't. It must go through a process which affords the green card holder due process. There are specific grounds which are required to be met to remove someone's green card.
And it absolutely cannot be revoked because the government disfavors ones political speech. That's an absolutely fundamental violation of the first amendment and our right to free speech.
No, it can't. It must go through a process which affords the green card holder due process. There are specific grounds which are required to be met to remove someone's green card.
And it absolutely cannot be revoked because the government disfavors ones political speech. That's an absolutely fundamental violation of the first amendment and our right to free speech.
And who defines that process? Oh right, the government.
It's really not as simple as "hey, the government can decide." To have a green card revoked, the person must be an active member of a group at war with the US or have committed some kind of fraud. DHS must initiate it (not the State Department, despite Rubio's statements), and it must be approved by an immigration judge.
So far all we've heard about this process and the justification is "Contact the White House."
So far all we've heard about this process and the justification is "Contact the White House."
There are more causes for revocation in the law than just those two.
MiiMe19(3)
blindriver(4)
monideas(4)
anon291(4)
I'm always sceptical about both sides of these sorts of "watchlists" and "violations" because it is always dependant on who's who.
A trivial example: is criticism of Israel fair or antisemitism?
I would imagine the current US "crackdown on antisemitism" being the cause of being added to the watchlist, which is fair in my opinion
I don't see how terminating employees or ending foreign aid being a decline in Civic freedoms
A trivial example: is criticism of Israel fair or antisemitism?
I would imagine the current US "crackdown on antisemitism" being the cause of being added to the watchlist, which is fair in my opinion
I don't see how terminating employees or ending foreign aid being a decline in Civic freedoms
And what about the active hostilities towards trans people, who often can't get passports anymore (I personally know one person who has this problem) and can't update their names and gender entries anymore.
What about the demolishing of government agencies that DOGE is trying (and sometimes succeding) in? You call it "termination of employees", but don't seem to consider that they tried to fire jugdes who restrained their power. This looks to me like a plain powergrab. I hope I don't need to tell you where something like this leads, but I am certain it's not going to be democratic or respectful of civic freedoms.
As a non-straight non-binary (neither cis-male or -female) person, the US is currently just about the last place I want to be. If the current trend continues, then I genuinely fear for the lives of some of my friends.
What about the demolishing of government agencies that DOGE is trying (and sometimes succeding) in? You call it "termination of employees", but don't seem to consider that they tried to fire jugdes who restrained their power. This looks to me like a plain powergrab. I hope I don't need to tell you where something like this leads, but I am certain it's not going to be democratic or respectful of civic freedoms.
As a non-straight non-binary (neither cis-male or -female) person, the US is currently just about the last place I want to be. If the current trend continues, then I genuinely fear for the lives of some of my friends.
I'm not aware of any new rules this year that has made anyone suddenly ineligible for a passport.
There are new rules making it hard for trans people to get an accurate passport.
This would make more sense. It's a very different problem if trans people "can't get passports anymore" vs being able to get their preferred gender on a passport.
Of course, the use of the term 'preferred gender' is the issue here (I don't mean with your reply), since to trans people such as myself, it's literally who we are.
Imagine someone that has transitioned and passes as the sex they identify as, now only having the option of getting a passport as the sex they were assigned as birth.
Practically, for many, that simply isn't an option.
Imagine someone that has transitioned and passes as the sex they identify as, now only having the option of getting a passport as the sex they were assigned as birth.
Practically, for many, that simply isn't an option.
Someone asked more why it was not an option but deleted their comment before they could answer, so here is my reply:
There is a issue with fear and using the passport.
Border agents have pretty much complete discretion and control at all borders in all countries against non-citizens. Any border agent can deny entry for any reason, or subject someone to extra searches, maybe strip searches, without any consequence or any recourse from the traveler.
Given the amount of transphobic people, this is an issue. Imagine if gay people had to get passports in the 90s or 80s that marked their orientation?
The second issue is a huge issue as well, that could easily lead to an increase in suicides.
There is a issue with fear and using the passport.
Border agents have pretty much complete discretion and control at all borders in all countries against non-citizens. Any border agent can deny entry for any reason, or subject someone to extra searches, maybe strip searches, without any consequence or any recourse from the traveler.
Given the amount of transphobic people, this is an issue. Imagine if gay people had to get passports in the 90s or 80s that marked their orientation?
The second issue is a huge issue as well, that could easily lead to an increase in suicides.
[deleted]
As I see it, it is an option but there is a cost. You're making an absolute statement when it seems like it's that you view the practical cost of choosing the option as too high. Which is fair but you're refusing to explain the costs. Is it physical harm? Is it emotional harm? Is it future inconvenience? Is it fear of future physical harm? Etc. Etc.
The risk of physical harm and harassment goes up significantly, imagine a transwoman trying to travel anywhere with a passport that indicates male, they can be detained, searched for any reason. That's just one obvious example. There are plenty of other instances where physical harm might increase, and yes emotional harm is a big issue as well, not least because it's a clear attack on dignity.
I'm not aware of any such rules, could you please point to one exactly?
And could you define the word accurate in this context?
And could you define the word accurate in this context?
> I'm not aware of any such rules, could you please point to one exactly?
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/transgender-and-nonbinar...
> And could you define the word accurate in this context?
First, could you clarify if you're a conservative or not? I won't be willing to engage with you further if you are.
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/transgender-and-nonbinar...
> And could you define the word accurate in this context?
First, could you clarify if you're a conservative or not? I won't be willing to engage with you further if you are.
I am not, but I'm also not willing to engage with someone with what I consider to be a bigoted view.
> I'm also not willing to engage with someone with what I consider to be a bigoted view.
Yeah, out of the two of us that ain't me lol.
Cheers.
Yeah, out of the two of us that ain't me lol.
Cheers.
I don't see how terminating employees or ending foreign aid being a decline in Civic freedoms
Ask the question differently. What kind of administration guts 70-150k jobs in a few weeks and cuts foreign aid? So many want to say "don't draw a bridge between that question and to a decline in civic freedoms". Fine, I won't draw the bridge, it seems to appease many people's idea of themselves. We'll just keep waiting and reading about more and more evil.
Ask the question differently. What kind of administration guts 70-150k jobs in a few weeks and cuts foreign aid? So many want to say "don't draw a bridge between that question and to a decline in civic freedoms". Fine, I won't draw the bridge, it seems to appease many people's idea of themselves. We'll just keep waiting and reading about more and more evil.
> The decision to add the US to the first 2025 watchlist was made in response to what the group described as the “Trump administration’s assault on democratic norms and global cooperation”.
> The group cited several of the administration’s actions such as the mass termination of federal employees, the appointment of Trump loyalists in key government positions, the withdrawal from international efforts such as the World Health Organization and the UN Human Rights Council, the freezing of federal and foreign aid and the attempted dismantling of USAid.
> The organization warned that these decisions “will likely impact civic freedoms and reverse hard-won human rights gains around the world”.
Okay, so there's nothing to do with actual civil freedoms. I dislike orange man as much as the next person, but this article is garbage.
> The group cited several of the administration’s actions such as the mass termination of federal employees, the appointment of Trump loyalists in key government positions, the withdrawal from international efforts such as the World Health Organization and the UN Human Rights Council, the freezing of federal and foreign aid and the attempted dismantling of USAid.
> The organization warned that these decisions “will likely impact civic freedoms and reverse hard-won human rights gains around the world”.
Okay, so there's nothing to do with actual civil freedoms. I dislike orange man as much as the next person, but this article is garbage.
[deleted]
Bradford is the UK's City of Culture
Rapid decline? Relative to whom? Virtually all other countries have far less respect for free speech.
> Virtually all other countries have far less respect for free speech.
Citation needed?(and maybe a refresher on Chomsky's propaganda model)
Citation needed?(and maybe a refresher on Chomsky's propaganda model)
Relative to itself. And there is far more to civic freedom than freedom of speech.
Nothing has changed about civic freedoms in the US with the new administration. If you read the article, their reasons are a bunch of things that have NOTHING to do with civic freedoms. It cites reducing the size of the federal workforce for example. This is just a political activist group that is falsely pitched as some kind of civic freedoms watchlist.
On the other hand the EU has serious issues with civic freedoms - censorship, suppression of political parties, cancelling elections with results they don’t like, and more. But I’m sure this group doesn’t mind those actual civic freedom issues.
On the other hand the EU has serious issues with civic freedoms - censorship, suppression of political parties, cancelling elections with results they don’t like, and more. But I’m sure this group doesn’t mind those actual civic freedom issues.
Mass government purges - including unlawfully firing people who oversee the legality of government actions - is an indicator of deteriorating civic freedoms as institutions meant for oversight and public services are dismantled.
Journalism is the art of massaging a press release (from a politically motivated organization that nobody has ever heard of and which doesn't actually do anything) into a statement of fact. The average person (who has a seventh-grade reading level, mind you) has absolutely no defense against this sort of low-effort appeal to "authority".
TL;DR: It's nonsense. They're manufacturing dissent.
TL;DR: It's nonsense. They're manufacturing dissent.
[deleted]
brickfaced(6)
anon291(1)
blindriver(3)
ein0p(2)
“The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy. The empathy exploit—they’re exploiting a bug in western civilization, which is the empathy response” -- Elon Musk
No more questions.
No more questions.
>No more questions.
Which is a shame, because if you questioned the quote a tiny bit and listened to the whole segment[1], it's far less damning that you make it out to be. Before that quote he even says "I believe in empathy, I think you should care about other people". He's not against empathy as a whole, he's against "too much" empathy, to the point that "you suicide yourself". That in my view, is entirely reasonable. If you had infinite empathy and were running a store, and you let yourself be shoplifted to bankruptcy, I think most people agree that would be a character flaw.
[1] https://youtu.be/sSOxPJD-VNo?t=4565
Which is a shame, because if you questioned the quote a tiny bit and listened to the whole segment[1], it's far less damning that you make it out to be. Before that quote he even says "I believe in empathy, I think you should care about other people". He's not against empathy as a whole, he's against "too much" empathy, to the point that "you suicide yourself". That in my view, is entirely reasonable. If you had infinite empathy and were running a store, and you let yourself be shoplifted to bankruptcy, I think most people agree that would be a character flaw.
[1] https://youtu.be/sSOxPJD-VNo?t=4565
So he positioned himself such that you can't say "he has no empathy", but he can still use "too much empathy" as a reason for anything?
> he's against "too much" empathy, to the point that "you suicide yourself"
His recent comments against all DEI programs(while implementing his own DEI programs and being a DEI hire himself) seem to show that this is an exaggeration
> he's against "too much" empathy, to the point that "you suicide yourself"
His recent comments against all DEI programs(while implementing his own DEI programs and being a DEI hire himself) seem to show that this is an exaggeration
>So he positioned himself such that you can't say "he has no empathy", but he can still use "too much empathy" as a reason for anything?
In other words, he's not an absolutist, which seems fine.
>His recent comments against all DEI programs(while implementing his own DEI programs and being a DEI hire himself) seem to show that this is an exaggeration
Sounds like you're already convinced that he's a Bad Person, so anything he says is going to be further proof of that. Even if he said something utterly anodyne like "government should be smaller", you'd probably respond with "well given what he's doing at DOGE, that's obviously him saying that he wants to dismantle the federal government as we know it".
In other words, he's not an absolutist, which seems fine.
>His recent comments against all DEI programs(while implementing his own DEI programs and being a DEI hire himself) seem to show that this is an exaggeration
Sounds like you're already convinced that he's a Bad Person, so anything he says is going to be further proof of that. Even if he said something utterly anodyne like "government should be smaller", you'd probably respond with "well given what he's doing at DOGE, that's obviously him saying that he wants to dismantle the federal government as we know it".
I don't know what "Bad Person" means, I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of saying "he only wants to get rid of empathy in the extreme when it leads to (essentially) suicide" when he's actively working to dismantle programs that benefit the economy just because he perceives them as having some modicum of "empathy" related to them.
I'm also not sure what your comment about DOGE is trying to say. He has commented many times on wanting smaller government, and is working actively to achieve that with DOGE. What am I missing there?
I'm also not sure what your comment about DOGE is trying to say. He has commented many times on wanting smaller government, and is working actively to achieve that with DOGE. What am I missing there?
Thank you for providing this.
He mentions right after that "empathy is good but you need to think it through and not just be programmed like a robot".
That quote is clearly taken out of context and is specifically chosen as click/rage bait.
Like all things, nuance and context is always key.
He mentions right after that "empathy is good but you need to think it through and not just be programmed like a robot".
That quote is clearly taken out of context and is specifically chosen as click/rage bait.
Like all things, nuance and context is always key.
You may find it utterly nullifying, not just mitigating.
I, of free and sound mind, do not.
I find an argument that it could be nullifying to be quite challenging to make. (really, I can't figure out how I'd make it)
Additionally, if I could, I'd still have to wrestle with that life isn't full of cartoon villains, and people usually hedge.
I, of free and sound mind, do not.
I find an argument that it could be nullifying to be quite challenging to make. (really, I can't figure out how I'd make it)
Additionally, if I could, I'd still have to wrestle with that life isn't full of cartoon villains, and people usually hedge.
The paradox of tolerance, exploited.
Huh? What you do mean by this? Are you advocating for less empathy? Towards whom?
The contention is usually that empathetic policies that favour outgroups can be exploited by that outgroup to benefit themselves. For example, a universal policy of hiring from all groups can be subverted by allowing in a group that hires only their own members.
I am quoting an obviously broken and severely traumatized person in power, in the context of ongoing and upcoming civic freedoms decline.
There isn't enough evidence to speculate on his mental state IMO, but he is a prescribed ketamine user which means there are a plethora of possible causes.
I would argue there is quite an abundance of evidence that is very telling of his mental state.
"Musk has fathered fourteen children, one of whom died as an infant. He had six children with his first wife, Canadian author Justine Wilson, who he met while attending Queen's University in Ontario, Canada; they married in 2000. In 2002, their first child Nevada Musk died of sudden infant death syndrome at the age of 10 weeks."
"One of world’s richest man Elon Musk’s kids does not want to be related to their biological father anymore. Born a boy, Xavier Alexander Musk, has filed a plea seeking a change in her name in accordance with her new gender identity. Xavier had filed the petition seeking both a name change and a new birth certificate that reflects her new gender identity with the Los Angeles County Superior Court in Santa Monica in April 2022.
The reason for the name change in the documents is mentioned as “Gender Identity and the fact that I no longer live with or wish to be related to my biological father in any way, shape or form.”"
"Elon’s father Errol Musk fathered two children with his former stepdaughter, Jana Bezuidenhout, who is 41 years his junior."
"n a recent podcast interview, Errol Musk said his son Elon had not “been a good dad” to his children."
“He was such a terrible human being,” Elon, 46, told the magazine. “You have no idea.”
Elon added: “My dad will have a carefully thought-out plan of evil… He will plan evil.”
“You have no idea about how bad. Almost every crime you can possibly think of, he has done,” Elon said, though he never went into specifics about what his father allegedly did. “Almost every evil thing you could possibly think of, he has done… It’s so terrible, you can’t believe it.”
“It would certainly be accurate to say that I did not have a good childhood… It may sound good. It was not absent of good, but it was not a happy childhood. It was like misery.”
"One does see a mother turning the children against the father successfully. "
"It's thought Grimes is keen to move in with the mothers of Musk's other children and raise them all together in one big house, however, most recently she's hit out at her billionaire ex publicly about his parenting.
"Plz respond about our child's medical crisis. I am sorry to do this publicly but it is no longer acceptable to ignore this situation. This requires immediate attention", she wrote on X.
"If you don't want to talk to me can you please designate or hire someone who can so that we can move forward on solving this. This is urgent, Elon.""
"One of world’s richest man Elon Musk’s kids does not want to be related to their biological father anymore. Born a boy, Xavier Alexander Musk, has filed a plea seeking a change in her name in accordance with her new gender identity. Xavier had filed the petition seeking both a name change and a new birth certificate that reflects her new gender identity with the Los Angeles County Superior Court in Santa Monica in April 2022.
The reason for the name change in the documents is mentioned as “Gender Identity and the fact that I no longer live with or wish to be related to my biological father in any way, shape or form.”"
"Elon’s father Errol Musk fathered two children with his former stepdaughter, Jana Bezuidenhout, who is 41 years his junior."
"n a recent podcast interview, Errol Musk said his son Elon had not “been a good dad” to his children."
“He was such a terrible human being,” Elon, 46, told the magazine. “You have no idea.”
Elon added: “My dad will have a carefully thought-out plan of evil… He will plan evil.”
“You have no idea about how bad. Almost every crime you can possibly think of, he has done,” Elon said, though he never went into specifics about what his father allegedly did. “Almost every evil thing you could possibly think of, he has done… It’s so terrible, you can’t believe it.”
“It would certainly be accurate to say that I did not have a good childhood… It may sound good. It was not absent of good, but it was not a happy childhood. It was like misery.”
"One does see a mother turning the children against the father successfully. "
"It's thought Grimes is keen to move in with the mothers of Musk's other children and raise them all together in one big house, however, most recently she's hit out at her billionaire ex publicly about his parenting.
"Plz respond about our child's medical crisis. I am sorry to do this publicly but it is no longer acceptable to ignore this situation. This requires immediate attention", she wrote on X.
"If you don't want to talk to me can you please designate or hire someone who can so that we can move forward on solving this. This is urgent, Elon.""
Okay, but on X/Twitter I regularly see people quoting this in a supportive fashion. So it isn't clear it is a joke.
Nothing wrong with quoting it in a supportive fashion. It is an entirely reasonable take. Especially if you listen to the entire point he made, and not cherry pick the part that makes it sound bad (intentionally, of course)
If you are letting “empathy” drive your civilization to ruin, it is no longer empathy. That is the point.
If you are letting “empathy” drive your civilization to ruin, it is no longer empathy. That is the point.
The claim that "empathy" is driving Western civilization to ruin is highly dubious and presented without evidence.
In contrast, we know that lack of empathy directly leads to atrocities:
> In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trails 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men. Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy. —Captain G. M. Gilbert
In contrast, we know that lack of empathy directly leads to atrocities:
> In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trails 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men. Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy. —Captain G. M. Gilbert
Huh? What about that quote seems anti-civil rights?
He's not saying "Don't empathize". He's not saying "We shouldn't have empathy". He's saying "Empathy can be exploited, and used against you".
Which is entirely valid. Balance is everything.
Now I know many have issues with Musk right now. I'm scratching my head on a few things he's doing. But, this quote seems entirely reasonable.
He's not saying "Don't empathize". He's not saying "We shouldn't have empathy". He's saying "Empathy can be exploited, and used against you".
Which is entirely valid. Balance is everything.
Now I know many have issues with Musk right now. I'm scratching my head on a few things he's doing. But, this quote seems entirely reasonable.
It's a quote from a crook who seemingly advocates for cruelty and sympathizes with fascist style of government.
They hated him because he told them the truth.
"The death of human empathy is one of the earliest and most telling signs of a culture about to fall into barbarism." - Hannah Arendt
Amusing, a quote on "empathy" from a Zionist who was against desegregation.
"Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages."
-Samuel Johnson
"Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages."
-Samuel Johnson
It's pretty easy to judge the US for what is happening right now, we certainly deserve it, but the decline of civic freedoms and liberalism is a global phenomenon.
We are experiencing a global assault on truth because truth provides a foundation on which to judge those in power.
Social media is the powerful's most potent weapon against truth. When social media combines with privatized intelligence companies, it creates a tool that can be used to divide and conquer societies, turning one half of the people against the other, deputizing the ignorant or vulnerable to fight for despots.
We are experiencing a global assault on truth because truth provides a foundation on which to judge those in power.
Social media is the powerful's most potent weapon against truth. When social media combines with privatized intelligence companies, it creates a tool that can be used to divide and conquer societies, turning one half of the people against the other, deputizing the ignorant or vulnerable to fight for despots.
One thing I wonder, is how much of it is simply attributable to the demographic transition that happens when a society urbanizes.
When birth rates start to drop the over-65s start getting more of a vote share than they've ever had before.
When birth rates start to drop the over-65s start getting more of a vote share than they've ever had before.
>We are experiencing a global assault on truth
There is truth, half truths and narratives. I wish people try to identify what they are looking at when they are consuming news.
1. A called B's girlfriend something bad, and got punched in the face by B. Truth
2. B hit A, half truth.
3. B is a bully, narrative.
At least that is how I see it.
There is truth, half truths and narratives. I wish people try to identify what they are looking at when they are consuming news.
1. A called B's girlfriend something bad, and got punched in the face by B. Truth
2. B hit A, half truth.
3. B is a bully, narrative.
At least that is how I see it.
> We are experiencing a global assault on truth
Perhaps, but from where I'm sitting the effects seem to be much more pronounced in the US than (say) here in Australia or in the UK. Americans seem to have gone for it in a big way.
Of course that may well be because the assault is concentrated more on the US. Or perhaps US society was just primed for it in some way. Distrust in the government has been building there for a very long time, and while trust in government is stretched in other places, it's not completely broken.
Perhaps, but from where I'm sitting the effects seem to be much more pronounced in the US than (say) here in Australia or in the UK. Americans seem to have gone for it in a big way.
Of course that may well be because the assault is concentrated more on the US. Or perhaps US society was just primed for it in some way. Distrust in the government has been building there for a very long time, and while trust in government is stretched in other places, it's not completely broken.
But that belies the real contention of what exactly is the truth? What is even more fundamental that has been lost is trust in nation and institutions due to a growing values divide. We must first trust before we can accept in good faith. Perhaps in some sense we should be thankful that we now have societies robust enough that even if major institutions lose legitimacy with half the population we don't get a civil war.
How far we've come from the Arab Spring.
[deleted]
> We are experiencing a global assault on truth
Are we though? Can you convince me of that, as a non-American?
Are we though? Can you convince me of that, as a non-American?
I am convinced of it, as an Australian.
Commercial interests have been assaulting truth since before I was born, nearly half a century ago. The methods for doing so have steadily improved. Social media briefly hindered it, before being co-opted thoroughly to advance it.
Even where the truth hasn't been completely buried, finding what's true and what's spewed from the firehose of bullshit is a time consuming and difficult task, one that definitely doesn't scale to very many of life's decisions at all.
Culminating this trend is the rise of the extreme right across the globe. This is tightly linked to politically motivated disinformation coupled with whatever the techniques are that are forming closed mind cult-like behaviours.
Maybe it's not an assault on truth - maybe truth is just collateral damage - but I don't think I could even pose it as a question to ask if you could convince me these things are not happening.
Commercial interests have been assaulting truth since before I was born, nearly half a century ago. The methods for doing so have steadily improved. Social media briefly hindered it, before being co-opted thoroughly to advance it.
Even where the truth hasn't been completely buried, finding what's true and what's spewed from the firehose of bullshit is a time consuming and difficult task, one that definitely doesn't scale to very many of life's decisions at all.
Culminating this trend is the rise of the extreme right across the globe. This is tightly linked to politically motivated disinformation coupled with whatever the techniques are that are forming closed mind cult-like behaviours.
Maybe it's not an assault on truth - maybe truth is just collateral damage - but I don't think I could even pose it as a question to ask if you could convince me these things are not happening.
This is not sounding like something modern then, if anything it's sounding like it's always been bad and we're only now recognizing(or having the channels to openly discuss) how bad it is.
The anti-intellectual fascist Georgescu arising from obscurity to a near winning position in Romania due to social media should be evidence enough.
Trumpism is a cause in itself, but it's also a symptom of a deeper cause that is afflicting more than only the United States.
The unintended consequence of social media, especially profit-driven social media infested with troll farms and bots from various governments (including China, Russia, US, Iran, Israel, to name but a few countries that have been caught), is the destruction of trust and community[0].
[0] https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/this-thing-will-fail
Trumpism is a cause in itself, but it's also a symptom of a deeper cause that is afflicting more than only the United States.
The unintended consequence of social media, especially profit-driven social media infested with troll farms and bots from various governments (including China, Russia, US, Iran, Israel, to name but a few countries that have been caught), is the destruction of trust and community[0].
[0] https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/this-thing-will-fail
blindriver(1)
> Civicus, an international non-profit, puts country alongside Democratic Republic of Congo, Italy, Pakistan and Serbia
I doubt it. But not for the reasons you're probably thinking.
I spend most of my time in Slovenia and Croatia, but I travel to Serbia frequently as it's "in the neighborhood" and medical/dental treatment there is top-notch and much cheaper than anywhere else.
I can state with absolute confidence that Serbia is one of the most freedom-loving countries in the world, and Serbs are ultra-zealous guardians of their personal freedoms. In Serbia, there are very few restrictions that impinge on one's day-to-day life, and even the laws are along the lines of recommendations. You can buy any prescription drug OTC; you can smoke in just about any restaurant; you can send your 10-year-old son to the cornerstore to buy you a bottle of whisky. You can also speak out against the government -- and quite loudly, at that -- just as people have been doing over recent weeks/months:
> https://apnews.com/article/serbia-students-protest-vucic-can...
I can think of nothing that's permissible in the USA or UK that's not possible in Serbia. (But I can think of many things that are possible in Serbia yet illegal or impossible in the UK or US!) All things considered, it feels much more free than any part of the USA. Serbian cops are friendly, there's no ubiquitous middleman grifting or gatekeeping, and one is basically free to do and say what one likes.
I doubt it. But not for the reasons you're probably thinking.
I spend most of my time in Slovenia and Croatia, but I travel to Serbia frequently as it's "in the neighborhood" and medical/dental treatment there is top-notch and much cheaper than anywhere else.
I can state with absolute confidence that Serbia is one of the most freedom-loving countries in the world, and Serbs are ultra-zealous guardians of their personal freedoms. In Serbia, there are very few restrictions that impinge on one's day-to-day life, and even the laws are along the lines of recommendations. You can buy any prescription drug OTC; you can smoke in just about any restaurant; you can send your 10-year-old son to the cornerstore to buy you a bottle of whisky. You can also speak out against the government -- and quite loudly, at that -- just as people have been doing over recent weeks/months:
> https://apnews.com/article/serbia-students-protest-vucic-can...
I can think of nothing that's permissible in the USA or UK that's not possible in Serbia. (But I can think of many things that are possible in Serbia yet illegal or impossible in the UK or US!) All things considered, it feels much more free than any part of the USA. Serbian cops are friendly, there's no ubiquitous middleman grifting or gatekeeping, and one is basically free to do and say what one likes.
> I can think of nothing that's permissible in the USA or UK that's not possible in Serbia.
how about declaring yourself Kosovan?
how about declaring yourself Kosovan?
How exactly, practically speaking?
If you just walk around and tell people that you're a Kosovan, or post about it online, they'll think you're either a militant/reactionary agitator or a lunatic. You might get some dirty looks, but you're not going to get thrown into prison.
If you're talking about taking real political action, sure, that would be a bad idea. But I can think of a lot of similar things (effectively things that aim to destabilize the government or foment civil unrest) that are similarly illegal in places like Germany/UK/etc.
If you just walk around and tell people that you're a Kosovan, or post about it online, they'll think you're either a militant/reactionary agitator or a lunatic. You might get some dirty looks, but you're not going to get thrown into prison.
If you're talking about taking real political action, sure, that would be a bad idea. But I can think of a lot of similar things (effectively things that aim to destabilize the government or foment civil unrest) that are similarly illegal in places like Germany/UK/etc.
There is much more to the state of civil rights than the behaviour of the police towards foreign tourists. For some "real" issues see for example the Amnesty International short report of the state of human rights in Serbia 2023: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/...
Those are hardly real issues -- the summary at that link mostly attempts to relitigate an old war and shame Serbia for perceived associations with Russia.
And how about this point? "Violence against women and girls: During the year, at least 27 women were victims of femicide."
27 out of how many millions? What's the per capita rate compared to the US and UK?
And how about this point? "Violence against women and girls: During the year, at least 27 women were victims of femicide."
27 out of how many millions? What's the per capita rate compared to the US and UK?
> Those are hardly real issues
Until you are the victim.
> The summary at that link mostly attempts to relitigate an old war and shame Serbia for perceived associations with Russia.
Right so. Atrocities should never be forgotten, no matter who they are associated with.
> What's the per capita rate compared to the US and UK?
The femicide rate in the USA is 3½ times higher. Each single case is one too many.
Until you are the victim.
> The summary at that link mostly attempts to relitigate an old war and shame Serbia for perceived associations with Russia.
Right so. Atrocities should never be forgotten, no matter who they are associated with.
> What's the per capita rate compared to the US and UK?
The femicide rate in the USA is 3½ times higher. Each single case is one too many.
I used to have some serbian staff, and this seems mostly true, but they had one hell of a time contracting globally.
Basically in a lot of countries you either are a FT equivalent and get bennies or you are not an FTE and get nada.
But the serbs had some social outrage over foreign companies contracting to their citizens but not paying tax in that country. From what I gather its due to healthcare costs.
So they did something, (difficult for me to ingest as a foreigner) but it seems that either:
1. You have to register and pay corporate tax in Serbia, then you can hire locals without issue
2. The staff member has to register as a business and pay corporate + payroll tax
or they do it dodgy and hope the tax man doesnt ruin their life.
This had the effect of creating a cottage industry of middlemen who take a slice between employer and employee which is probably the least freedom oriented outcome possible.
Basically in a lot of countries you either are a FT equivalent and get bennies or you are not an FTE and get nada.
But the serbs had some social outrage over foreign companies contracting to their citizens but not paying tax in that country. From what I gather its due to healthcare costs.
So they did something, (difficult for me to ingest as a foreigner) but it seems that either:
1. You have to register and pay corporate tax in Serbia, then you can hire locals without issue
2. The staff member has to register as a business and pay corporate + payroll tax
or they do it dodgy and hope the tax man doesnt ruin their life.
This had the effect of creating a cottage industry of middlemen who take a slice between employer and employee which is probably the least freedom oriented outcome possible.
That's not unlike IR35 rules in the UK, where the government got sick of contractors acting as employees behind a limited company veil, paying a lot less tax overall. Companies wishing to hire contractors must absolutely not treat them like employees, those that are must be employed by an umbrella company and pay regular payroll taxes.
HMRC, who pushed for the law, is however exempt and hires contractors the old way, outrageously enough.
HMRC, who pushed for the law, is however exempt and hires contractors the old way, outrageously enough.
https://x.com/TheFIREorg/status/1898841858983239814
More details: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-authorities-arrest-pales... and https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/3/9/mahmoud-khalil-stude... (This last article mentions his green card apparently being revoked.)