European Cloud Computing Platforms(european-alternatives.eu)
european-alternatives.eu
European Cloud Computing Platforms
https://european-alternatives.eu/category/cloud-computing-platforms
67 comments
The tricky thing about these services is that they often cannot compete on price or on capability. The scale and mature feature sets of US based cloud providers outweigh the benefits of keeping it within European ownership for most commercial organizations. For Europe to truly compete, they shouldn't copy IaaS models, but come up with new innovative PaaS models in yet to develop markets, such as XR or internet-decentralization. Those markets provide a chance to go in front at an early stage and with enough dedication of both the EU government and the European business community, this can be a start to differentiate itself from the US and China.
Hetzner has been the cheapest big option when you just want raw servers for at least a decade, and e.g. Scaleway is pretty similar in price to US based providers.
I have used both of them in the past, pricing is indeed very competitive - there are very few providers coming close to Hetzner pricing on dedicated servers.
There's also OVH, they have plenty of global regions, but I haven't used them yet.
There's also OVH, they have plenty of global regions, but I haven't used them yet.
Hetzner half-heartetly started to offer database hosting as well but they need a lot more services and present them on eye level with the servers.
I a am huge Hetzner fan and waiting for years already for them to expand their offering.
I a am huge Hetzner fan and waiting for years already for them to expand their offering.
I guess at this point you mean their recent object storage offering? https://www.hetzner.com/storage/object-storage/
Huh? Database hosting? I dont see it anywhere in Hetzner offerings?
UpCloud also seems quite cheap - 1 vCPU and 1GB of RAM, 10GB disk for €3/month and €4.5 for 20GB disk.
> The scale and mature feature sets of US based cloud providers outweigh the benefits of keeping it within European ownership for most commercial organizations.
That's what companies thought about manufacturing in China. But that was before they found out the costs of corruption and loss of trade secrets. If you're a fantastically succesfuly European company, what's to stop Trump (or any future president) just deciding you're too big and need to be sold to "an american investor"?
It is high time for companies and banks to invest only where democracy thrives because when you invest where it doesn't, your investment simply ends up being controlled by gangsters. This might benefit you for a while. But eventually, it won't.
That's what companies thought about manufacturing in China. But that was before they found out the costs of corruption and loss of trade secrets. If you're a fantastically succesfuly European company, what's to stop Trump (or any future president) just deciding you're too big and need to be sold to "an american investor"?
It is high time for companies and banks to invest only where democracy thrives because when you invest where it doesn't, your investment simply ends up being controlled by gangsters. This might benefit you for a while. But eventually, it won't.
Democracy is the rule of the people.
Companies and banks aren't interested in investing where the people have power. They want to invest where the companies and banks themselves have power.
So long as the companies and banks can influence the gangsters, they don't care.
Companies and banks aren't interested in investing where the people have power. They want to invest where the companies and banks themselves have power.
So long as the companies and banks can influence the gangsters, they don't care.
> So long as the companies and banks can influence the gangsters, they don't care.
There are powerful executives who thought they could influence the Russian gangsters. And they could. Until they couldn't. If they were lucky, they're still around to tell the tale but many are not.
Oppressed people do not make good consumers. Even Machiavelli realised that.
There are powerful executives who thought they could influence the Russian gangsters. And they could. Until they couldn't. If they were lucky, they're still around to tell the tale but many are not.
Oppressed people do not make good consumers. Even Machiavelli realised that.
Do you think the United States isn't a democracy?
I mean, it isn't. It's a constitutional republic, but answer the question.
I mean, it isn't. It's a constitutional republic, but answer the question.
This is like saying that a hamster isn't a mammal because it's a rodent.
a true democracy would be a 1:1 vote, each person gets 1 vote, and that is what matters for everything. we have a representative democracy, but our country operates as a constitutional republic. words have meanings.
so what i am asking is, even if you take democracy to mean whatever you think it means, is the US not a democracy? It is really hard to see what your point was, because i asked if they thought the US was not a democracy, and here you are saying it is, so what are you trying to say? you agree with me, the US is a democracy, right?
so what i am asking is, even if you take democracy to mean whatever you think it means, is the US not a democracy? It is really hard to see what your point was, because i asked if they thought the US was not a democracy, and here you are saying it is, so what are you trying to say? you agree with me, the US is a democracy, right?
Yes, words have meanings. What you call "true democracy" is what is usually referred to as direct democracy. You seem to be implying that a representative democracy is not a democracy. It is, it's just a different form than direct democracy.
In your previous post you said that the US is not a democracy, but a constitutional republic. Now you say that the US has a representative democracy, but operates as a constitutional republic, so I'm not sure what you mean anymore? You seem to agree that a constitutional republic can also be a democracy.
To answer your question, I agree with you the US is a democracy. The parent comment did not say that the US is not a democracy, it said that "companies and banks should invest only where democracy thrives". I take that to mean that this user believes that democracy is not currently thriving in the US, which I would agree with.
In your previous post you said that the US is not a democracy, but a constitutional republic. Now you say that the US has a representative democracy, but operates as a constitutional republic, so I'm not sure what you mean anymore? You seem to agree that a constitutional republic can also be a democracy.
To answer your question, I agree with you the US is a democracy. The parent comment did not say that the US is not a democracy, it said that "companies and banks should invest only where democracy thrives". I take that to mean that this user believes that democracy is not currently thriving in the US, which I would agree with.
> I take that to mean that this user believes that democracy is not currently thriving in the US, which I would agree with.
and yet, no explanation as to why. The people voted, the government abides.
do you ever get the idea that you tilt at windmills?
also is the DPRK or the DRC "Democratic"? It's in the name, so therefore they are democracies!
and yet, no explanation as to why. The people voted, the government abides.
do you ever get the idea that you tilt at windmills?
also is the DPRK or the DRC "Democratic"? It's in the name, so therefore they are democracies!
I don't know what you guys mean by "constitutional republic", but in the rest of the world "republic" just means "not a monarchy".
if you don't know what words mean, then why bother responding?
Because I expect someone to explain what is the actual difference.
well, lemme try again.
the US is a representative democracy, as far as "democratic" goes. a true democracy would be a 1:1 voter:vote, but that's untenable. most people interpret democracy to mean that the people have a say in government, but in the US, it's the constitution that limits the government and certifies our rights to complain at the government. That's why the US is a Constitutional Republic.
The implication of the person i was replying to was that the US is not a democracy, and i wanted to see what the reasoning was there. As i said, it isn't, but i am unsure if any country is an actual democracy. So it's a way to mess with the framing of an argument.
I wanted to know why that person implied the US wasn't. that's all.
btw, the word "democratic" and the like is loaded. Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea, the Democratic Republic of Congo.
the US is a representative democracy, as far as "democratic" goes. a true democracy would be a 1:1 voter:vote, but that's untenable. most people interpret democracy to mean that the people have a say in government, but in the US, it's the constitution that limits the government and certifies our rights to complain at the government. That's why the US is a Constitutional Republic.
The implication of the person i was replying to was that the US is not a democracy, and i wanted to see what the reasoning was there. As i said, it isn't, but i am unsure if any country is an actual democracy. So it's a way to mess with the framing of an argument.
I wanted to know why that person implied the US wasn't. that's all.
btw, the word "democratic" and the like is loaded. Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea, the Democratic Republic of Congo.
Do you think Russia is one?
On paper they are also a constitutional republic. the democracy is limited by fraud and state control of media?
The difference is, in the US, we at least pretend there's a chance for either party to get elected. And sometimes, we wistfully think that a third party candidate can moonshot, but that's not the way our system works. I have at least one friends that are political scientists, and their theses had to do with different forms of voting and the pros/cons of that, and how we could herald different systems into the united states.
so to directly answer your question: "no"
The difference is, in the US, we at least pretend there's a chance for either party to get elected. And sometimes, we wistfully think that a third party candidate can moonshot, but that's not the way our system works. I have at least one friends that are political scientists, and their theses had to do with different forms of voting and the pros/cons of that, and how we could herald different systems into the united states.
so to directly answer your question: "no"
The US isn't democratically governed, it's an oligarchy that's dressed up as a democracy. It has some essential ingredients of a representative democracy like holding elections to give the system an aura of legitimacy, but the entire back-end of this "democratic process" is quite obviously rotten due to decades of corruption. Most of that could probably be attributed back to the involvement of big money interests in politics.
the founding fathers complained about lobbying but saw no way around it, maybe even said something like "necessary evil" or whatever was in fashion.
"for most commercial organizations"
Most commercial organizations are not "internet" companies. They can run their business on a single VPS. Even e-commerce sites with several million euro turnover can run their Magento instance on a single VPS. Or industries manufacturing things can still run their inventory software or ERP stuff on some cheap VPS.
Most commercial organizations are not "internet" companies. They can run their business on a single VPS. Even e-commerce sites with several million euro turnover can run their Magento instance on a single VPS. Or industries manufacturing things can still run their inventory software or ERP stuff on some cheap VPS.
> for most commercial organizations
The overwhelming majority of commercial organizations don't even have a registered domain. They pass well under our radars because they'd never hire any of us for help.
Last one who asked me, a fertility clinic, wanted a blog, so I registered a domain for them, set up Google services (back then it was free for their org size - something like 5 people), Wordpress, their payment accounts, and that was it. Apart from e-mail and shared documents, they had zero cloud presence. If they wanted to self-host their blog (something I would discourage) they'd need nothing more than a single tiny instance behind Cloudflare.
The overwhelming majority of commercial organizations don't even have a registered domain. They pass well under our radars because they'd never hire any of us for help.
Last one who asked me, a fertility clinic, wanted a blog, so I registered a domain for them, set up Google services (back then it was free for their org size - something like 5 people), Wordpress, their payment accounts, and that was it. Apart from e-mail and shared documents, they had zero cloud presence. If they wanted to self-host their blog (something I would discourage) they'd need nothing more than a single tiny instance behind Cloudflare.
Scaleway is pretty competitive.
I would add CloudFerro, used by ESA and several other European satellite data providers.
https://cloudferro.com/
https://cloudferro.com/pricing/pricing-tables/waw3-1-cloud/v...
Re the sibling comment they do offer trial credit, but I have explored the terms. I don't think there's a recurring free tier though.
https://cloudferro.com/
https://cloudferro.com/pricing/pricing-tables/waw3-1-cloud/v...
Re the sibling comment they do offer trial credit, but I have explored the terms. I don't think there's a recurring free tier though.
Don't forget about on-prem / private cloud:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStack
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_CloudStack
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_cloud_computing_infras...
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStack
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_CloudStack
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_cloud_computing_infras...
Also don’t forget you might be fine with just a VPS (or a few)!
I don't recommend IONOS as they require a phone call to cancel any services and their billing system was inconsistent with the documentation (at least when I tried it recently).
Also this list not including Hetzner is deeply shameful.
Also this list not including Hetzner is deeply shameful.
In the second paragraph, it says:
>Hosters with a focus on virtual servers, are only listed in the category virtual private server (VPS) hosters.
>https://european-alternatives.eu/category/vps-virtual-privat...
Hetzner is the very first entry in that category.
>Hosters with a focus on virtual servers, are only listed in the category virtual private server (VPS) hosters.
>https://european-alternatives.eu/category/vps-virtual-privat...
Hetzner is the very first entry in that category.
I stand corrected. My complaints about IONOS still stand.
I do recommend IONOS as they provide cheap powerful machines with unlimited traffic.
lol if you believe the marketing gimmick of "unlimited traffic". Where do you think you are?
Finally the people of the european nations have started to invest where they always should have invested, in their own infrastructure and companies.
Don't forget the 800 billion euros for defense!
Hard to forget something that didn't happen yet. We have declarations and decisions, commendable ones. But let's wait until such money is indeed spend on something.
borrowed* to spend on something
Well, I am self-hosted, and hackers using clouds for hacks/scans (and the so-called "scanners-for-your-own-security-we-swear-we-don't-sell-the-scan-data-to-the-bad-ppl") are really a pain. OVH is not safe (and their scanner/hacking bot onyphe is a pain). But lately the "top" is ucloud.cn and everything hosted on digital ocean. Actually very few front IPs from russia or iran.
I wonder if there are EU clouds doing that properly, namely with its own internal "security" cleanup crew and getting rid of those hackers and scanners.
I wonder if there are EU clouds doing that properly, namely with its own internal "security" cleanup crew and getting rid of those hackers and scanners.
Well, I once got a notice from Hetzner, that I needed to either stop running or harden some random open service I wasn't aware of running on my dedi box (I may have forgotten to install a firewall...). If i recall correctly, they were bound by German law, to monitor their network for suspecious activity, and if the customers didn't comply, they could close down your box. Now, it was a while back, my memory is a bit fuzzy and I don't have the time to look through old emails. Consider this anecdata.
"Monitoring their network for suspicious activity" does not mean to scan ports.
It means they have to monitor if one of their hosted "boxes" is actually generating nasty traffic. Once detected, they have to inform the owner of the "box" that they have been pown, well, careful if the owner of the "box" is actually the mob...
And I can tell you, I get attacks/scans mostly from those "clouds", like I start to wonder if they are not "closing their eyes" on purpose because with their huge network resources it is wrecking "small hosting", or more "business" for them.
It means they have to monitor if one of their hosted "boxes" is actually generating nasty traffic. Once detected, they have to inform the owner of the "box" that they have been pown, well, careful if the owner of the "box" is actually the mob...
And I can tell you, I get attacks/scans mostly from those "clouds", like I start to wonder if they are not "closing their eyes" on purpose because with their huge network resources it is wrecking "small hosting", or more "business" for them.
One thing about the EU based platforms is that they tend to have much more limited free tier, often there's none.
IMHO the deep pockets of the US based tech is their primary competitive advantage. In other countries they seem to try to make a bit of money every month but in USA they tend to aim to make a lot of money at once down the road. I'm under the impression that when non-US services end up failing, US based ones end up enshitified.
So the EU based stuff stays about the same for many years, the US based stuff starts as we are saving the world, democratizing the technology and doing all this for free(*) and then your bill jumps 100x or your experience goes 100x down.
IMHO the deep pockets of the US based tech is their primary competitive advantage. In other countries they seem to try to make a bit of money every month but in USA they tend to aim to make a lot of money at once down the road. I'm under the impression that when non-US services end up failing, US based ones end up enshitified.
So the EU based stuff stays about the same for many years, the US based stuff starts as we are saving the world, democratizing the technology and doing all this for free(*) and then your bill jumps 100x or your experience goes 100x down.
But e.g. Hetzner, OVH and Ionos are so cheap, you can easily keep a project alive for years until it gets traction or break even. Paying like 50€ a month is peanuts.
On AWS or Google Cloud or Firebase you pay $0 a month until you start paying thousands of dollars per month. This makes the brands ubiquitous and developers knowledgeable of the platform. It's like having free MS Office subscription for free when in school, so everyone who graduates ends up knowing the MS tools and it's not feasible to switch to competitor.
Shouldn't this be illegal?
Price dumping in international trade is already illegal, like when China floods the market with electric cars and solar panels.
And I only wonder why EU has put up so long with price dumping in other domains. Like the whole Microsoft world domination strategy that was made possible by intentionally lousy enforcement of its IP.
Price dumping in international trade is already illegal, like when China floods the market with electric cars and solar panels.
And I only wonder why EU has put up so long with price dumping in other domains. Like the whole Microsoft world domination strategy that was made possible by intentionally lousy enforcement of its IP.
I guess nobody considers it price dumping because it's given away entirely for free. People only see it as price dumping when somebody offers something at a far lower price.. but nobody feels like complaining when somebody is so rich that they throw their money at you for free.
I don't know how this can be illegal, although I agree that the practice is pretty harmful in some ways.
In the AI age for example, almost all platforms are giving it away for free now and costs huge amount of money for them.
They are able to give it for free because their investors expect down the road to make much more money like they did in the Web age and then Apps age. Thanks to the investors of the time we had great run on the web and later in the apps.
In one hand it means that sometime in the future if they corner the market and establish a monopoly the service will suffer, will be used for doing bad things or become very expensive, just what the web and apps has become.
In the other hand this accelerates the technological advancements and deployment far beyond what would be possible in another business model.
In the AI age for example, almost all platforms are giving it away for free now and costs huge amount of money for them.
They are able to give it for free because their investors expect down the road to make much more money like they did in the Web age and then Apps age. Thanks to the investors of the time we had great run on the web and later in the apps.
In one hand it means that sometime in the future if they corner the market and establish a monopoly the service will suffer, will be used for doing bad things or become very expensive, just what the web and apps has become.
In the other hand this accelerates the technological advancements and deployment far beyond what would be possible in another business model.
> And I only wonder why EU has put up so long with price dumping in other domains. Like the whole Microsoft world domination strategy that was made possible by intentionally lousy enforcement of its IP.
Because eing a US vassal makes it difficult to sanction your overlord.
Because eing a US vassal makes it difficult to sanction your overlord.
If you look closer, you can see that the free tier is mostly covering SaaS in order to lock you into their APIs.
The free tier for VMs isn't that generous.
For a startup, locking into an API that is initially free can often break their neck in the long run. Because for a startup, switching providers is a big distraction. It's often better to run VMs or colocated servers on an OSS stack.
I'd argue that OVH (European) is the cost leader for that in every market they are in.
For a startup, locking into an API that is initially free can often break their neck in the long run. Because for a startup, switching providers is a big distraction. It's often better to run VMs or colocated servers on an OSS stack.
I'd argue that OVH (European) is the cost leader for that in every market they are in.
I agree but the $0(*) people do win, they usually loose money for years and years and they are able to provide great service.
Eventually they lock you down and start recouping their investments from you but they do make some things possible simply because it costs nothing to try and as a result a lot of great things are incepted on those platforms.
Eventually they lock you down and start recouping their investments from you but they do make some things possible simply because it costs nothing to try and as a result a lot of great things are incepted on those platforms.
You can use cloud while you have free credits – just spend them on a beefy AWS Lightsail server or something like that. Then pack it up and move to a cheaper provider.
Merrymake has a pretty nice free tier, with very few limitations, and it's definitely technologically advanced. And it being serverless, you'll only pay for as much as your code runs, if you wanna go paid tier.
Full disclosure, I work there.
Full disclosure, I work there.
I hope we're going to see a move to more cloud agnostic stacks. I'm currently running Patroni between Hetzner and Netcup, with an Amazon Lightsail VPS as a third etcd member. If Hetzner decides to flag my account, the hot standby on Netcup will take over (or the other way around, as I switch on a weekly basis). Still using Amazon with AWS SES and Route53 but these can be replaced by other parties if need be.
Anyone has tried GleSYS? https://glesys.com
They're based out of Sweden, and offer bandwidth in Mbit/s, rather than GB/month (as per their pricing page, https://glesys.com/vps/pricing)
They're based out of Sweden, and offer bandwidth in Mbit/s, rather than GB/month (as per their pricing page, https://glesys.com/vps/pricing)
There's also Contabo: https://contabo.com/en/about-us/
They have mixed reputation in some cases, but honestly their pricing is great for side projects and such, maybe even running a small/medium business as long as it's within their ToS.
They have mixed reputation in some cases, but honestly their pricing is great for side projects and such, maybe even running a small/medium business as long as it's within their ToS.
Contabo is garbage. They'll scam you with every trick in the book.
As far as I am aware Contabo has a pretty bad reputation and not a mixed reputation.
Shameless plug (I’m an employee):
If you need advanced services beyond vms/block storage/object storage from your cloud (i.e. databases, kafka, opensearch) also check out aiven.io . We support many EU cloud providers.
There's also Leafcloud, they put their servers in urban buildings and recycle the waste heat: https://leaf.cloud/
I use Contabo for my personal projects, not on the list, they are from Germany.
My company uses OVH and I have also used UpCloud, it is pretty good.
My company uses OVH and I have also used UpCloud, it is pretty good.
UpCloud is really good!
check prices etc. for some of these here: https://cloudoptimizer.io/
And here's another shameless plug: merrymake.eu.
We're a Danish-based and -owned 3-year old cloud provider, and we can definitely compete with the big US clouds on technology and price. Merrymake is serverless, extremely fast (if not the fastest in EU), and infraless, meaning we hide away all the clutter, so devs can focus on their code instead. So it's not just a GDPR-compliant alternative, but a technological advancement to the US providers.
We're a Danish-based and -owned 3-year old cloud provider, and we can definitely compete with the big US clouds on technology and price. Merrymake is serverless, extremely fast (if not the fastest in EU), and infraless, meaning we hide away all the clutter, so devs can focus on their code instead. So it's not just a GDPR-compliant alternative, but a technological advancement to the US providers.
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All this is for London data centres. It'd be interesting to re-benchmark them against other providers.