Why Sedans Disappeared(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Why Sedans Disappeared
https://twitter.com/pitdesi/status/1916120249176358950
31 comments
https://xcancel.com/pitdesi/status/1916120249176358950
>The bigger the car's footprint, the easier the MPG target was.
Let me guess - the fantastic bribery system I mean lobbying system at work?
Let me guess - the fantastic bribery system I mean lobbying system at work?
Could also be because the working classes use trucks and vans for their small businesses and raising vehicle prices would have burdened them?
Not interested in clicking on a Twitter link, but the claim seems a bit silly.
I see lots of sedans in the street made by companies like Tesla, BMW and Mercedes-Benz. Maybe the sedan just became a bit more upmarket than it used to be.
I see lots of sedans in the street made by companies like Tesla, BMW and Mercedes-Benz. Maybe the sedan just became a bit more upmarket than it used to be.
Not interested in clicking twitter either but in the name of progress I went there and what I found was a pretty disgusting misuse of the platform.
Basically a “hate on Obama” hit piece. Fucking snore.
“””
Ever wonder why sedans disappeared and every car is huge now?
"Thanks, Obama!"
His administration changed fuel economy standards in a way that had the perverse impact of making cars even bigger.
Here are all the vehicles for sale by the 3 largest US automakers. 62 vehicles, 4 sedans (6%). 20 years ago this chart would have been ~50% sedans!
What happened?
Obama administration changed auto fuel efficiency rules to tie fuel economy targets to vehicle size.
Under the new system: -The bigger the car's footprint, the easier the MPG target was. -Light trucks (including SUVs and crossovers) had far lower requirements than passenger cars. -Crossovers were quietly reclassified as "trucks," giving them a huge regulatory advantage.
Instead of building lighter, more efficient cars, automakers simply made everything bigger, and made more trucks and SUVs.
Notice that cars that used to be sedans are now crossovers? They do this so it counts as a light truck - they raise ground clearance, square off the rear for cargo capacity, and meet off-road approach minimums so they get qualified as a light truck. Think Subaru Legacy > Subaru Outback.
As you can see in the chart, it's a LOT easier to meet MPG requirements if your vehicle is classified that way.
So cars got LARGER to meet fuel efficiency goals. The new Honda Civic is 20 inches longer and 4 inches wider than it used to be, about the same size as an old Accord. By making the Civic larger, Honda slightly shifted it into a more favorable regulatory category.
...and smaller cars disappeared. The Honda Fit was a great little car, but would have had to hit 67 MPG in 2026, which would be nearly impossible... so instead, Honda stopped selling them.
So, the only way to make small vehicles now is to make them EV's (Chevy Bolt).
The Slate truck that is all the rage now is only possible because it's an EV... otherwise its footprint would have demanded an overly onerous MPG target.
So in short - Obama era CAFE standards had the opposite of the desired impact: sedans died, vehicles ballooned in size, and America's streets turned into an SUV parking lot.
All thanks to a policy that accidentally incentivized bloat instead of efficiency.
Don't get me started on "cash for clunkers!"
“””
Basically a “hate on Obama” hit piece. Fucking snore.
“””
Ever wonder why sedans disappeared and every car is huge now?
"Thanks, Obama!"
His administration changed fuel economy standards in a way that had the perverse impact of making cars even bigger.
Here are all the vehicles for sale by the 3 largest US automakers. 62 vehicles, 4 sedans (6%). 20 years ago this chart would have been ~50% sedans!
What happened?
Obama administration changed auto fuel efficiency rules to tie fuel economy targets to vehicle size.
Under the new system: -The bigger the car's footprint, the easier the MPG target was. -Light trucks (including SUVs and crossovers) had far lower requirements than passenger cars. -Crossovers were quietly reclassified as "trucks," giving them a huge regulatory advantage.
Instead of building lighter, more efficient cars, automakers simply made everything bigger, and made more trucks and SUVs.
Notice that cars that used to be sedans are now crossovers? They do this so it counts as a light truck - they raise ground clearance, square off the rear for cargo capacity, and meet off-road approach minimums so they get qualified as a light truck. Think Subaru Legacy > Subaru Outback.
As you can see in the chart, it's a LOT easier to meet MPG requirements if your vehicle is classified that way.
So cars got LARGER to meet fuel efficiency goals. The new Honda Civic is 20 inches longer and 4 inches wider than it used to be, about the same size as an old Accord. By making the Civic larger, Honda slightly shifted it into a more favorable regulatory category.
...and smaller cars disappeared. The Honda Fit was a great little car, but would have had to hit 67 MPG in 2026, which would be nearly impossible... so instead, Honda stopped selling them.
So, the only way to make small vehicles now is to make them EV's (Chevy Bolt).
The Slate truck that is all the rage now is only possible because it's an EV... otherwise its footprint would have demanded an overly onerous MPG target.
So in short - Obama era CAFE standards had the opposite of the desired impact: sedans died, vehicles ballooned in size, and America's streets turned into an SUV parking lot.
All thanks to a policy that accidentally incentivized bloat instead of efficiency.
Don't get me started on "cash for clunkers!"
“””
> Basically a “hate on Obama” hit piece. Fucking snore.
Seems a bit disingenuous blaming a president who had heavy opposition from a republican majority for most of his tenure. Doing nothing would also have been frowned upon. Compromises can have unintended consequences but maybe this was the best he could do?
Seems a bit disingenuous blaming a president who had heavy opposition from a republican majority for most of his tenure. Doing nothing would also have been frowned upon. Compromises can have unintended consequences but maybe this was the best he could do?
Well, another poster mentioned that the standards were changed in 2008, a time when Obama would have been running for office, not holding office. So OP is completely wrong
bonoboTP(2)
This has also happened in Australia.
There are hatchbacks, SUVs and light trucks. Sedans have become far less common.
It'd be interesting to compare with Western Europe.
There are hatchbacks, SUVs and light trucks. Sedans have become far less common.
It'd be interesting to compare with Western Europe.
Doesn't Australia famously have no emissions standards for cars (until recently/soon?)
Which would suggest it's a wider trend and not just Obama at fault.
I'd suggest people getting older and bigger (both height and width) has had an impact. It's just easier to get in taller cars for some people, like my in laws.
Relative wealth (there used to be a lot more tiny cars for basic economic reasons).
And a safety arms race caused by other cars being bigger for the above reasons.
Which would suggest it's a wider trend and not just Obama at fault.
I'd suggest people getting older and bigger (both height and width) has had an impact. It's just easier to get in taller cars for some people, like my in laws.
Relative wealth (there used to be a lot more tiny cars for basic economic reasons).
And a safety arms race caused by other cars being bigger for the above reasons.
Sedans are actually making a comeback. The Shanghai auto show featured a few cool EV sedans that got a lot of attention. If you want to see the future of cars, that's the place to be. A few of those vehicles will come to Europe. The US is a bit cut off from innovation for the foreseeable future for obvious reasons. Maybe next decade.
Why would I buy a sedan if I can pay the same price for a wagon? A Toyota Corolla Wagon, one you cannot get in the states, has a larger trunk space than the RAV4 whilst costing almost half as much.
The reason people prefer other types kf cars to sedans is that for similar money you can get something that is more practical. Unfortunately, CAFE has perversely incentivised car makers to make those alternatives bigger than sedans. But, unfortunately, even in EU the consumers seem to prefer crossovers, almost to the point where they are getting cheaper than their hatchback/wagon alternatives.
The reason people prefer other types kf cars to sedans is that for similar money you can get something that is more practical. Unfortunately, CAFE has perversely incentivised car makers to make those alternatives bigger than sedans. But, unfortunately, even in EU the consumers seem to prefer crossovers, almost to the point where they are getting cheaper than their hatchback/wagon alternatives.
In India it is same. But because the roads are bad, so a high ground clearance vehicle is desired. Though the SUVs are much smaller than the US counterparts.
This sounds for me a very Obama hate(?) conclusion. If it's really Obamas fault, why does this happen in many other countries as well?
Living in germany and italy in both countries I see the exact same trend.
I myself drive a sedan, a Volvo S60. It is a gorgeous car and I always get compliments for it, but the seller (who is a very big one) only sold one S60 in several years. It is also the least sold car by Volvo, as far as I know.
So how is this Obamas fault again?
Living in germany and italy in both countries I see the exact same trend.
I myself drive a sedan, a Volvo S60. It is a gorgeous car and I always get compliments for it, but the seller (who is a very big one) only sold one S60 in several years. It is also the least sold car by Volvo, as far as I know.
So how is this Obamas fault again?
The OP mentions the Honda Fit, a very small car that was popular in the US, but was taken off the US market after the 2020 model year. That car is still being sold in Europe (under the name Honda Jazz).
Not only do I not see new Honda Fits anymore in the US, but also I don't see any other new cars (by any manufacturer) that small or smaller except for electric cars (e.g., the electric Chevy Bolt, which has been very popular here).
Not only do I not see new Honda Fits anymore in the US, but also I don't see any other new cars (by any manufacturer) that small or smaller except for electric cars (e.g., the electric Chevy Bolt, which has been very popular here).
It is still being sold in Europe, but by a pretty small amount (always was). I personally (yes anecdotal evidence) never seen one.
And the discontinuation in US happened also in South America and South East Asia.
So it still does not answer my question: How is this Obamas fault?
And the discontinuation in US happened also in South America and South East Asia.
So it still does not answer my question: How is this Obamas fault?
Because Obama is/was a neoliberal, corporate salesman. D and R teams are different wings of the same overall property party. Obama 2.0 "Abundance" neo-neoliberalism like Gavin Newsom aim to expedite the privatization of America and weakening of regulations to celebrate trickle-down economics in a dressed-up new form.
And again, how is this Obamas fault in other countries, where you can see the same trend?
You're arguing with yourself. Obama is a symptom but not a cause.
So… not Obama’s fault then. Got it.
He mentions the Honda Fit needing to hit a crazy MPG in 2026 which struck me as odd for a few reasons:
1. It doesn't actually seem that much higher than the actual Honda Jazz Hybrid mpg gets.
2. Does CAFE dictate individual cars? I thought it was a fleet average.
3. The Fit was withdrawn from NA market (and phased out in some others) in 2020, due to low demand in the sub-compact segment according to Honda.
4. It's not a sedan.
1. It doesn't actually seem that much higher than the actual Honda Jazz Hybrid mpg gets.
2. Does CAFE dictate individual cars? I thought it was a fleet average.
3. The Fit was withdrawn from NA market (and phased out in some others) in 2020, due to low demand in the sub-compact segment according to Honda.
4. It's not a sedan.
The author makes the assertion that the mpg targets are easier and it's implied it's because the number is lower.
I'd like to see that assertion actually supported with evidence.
Making a heavier car, with higher ground clearance, and a less aerodynamic shape (squared rear) means it will get less mpg by default.
So what makes it easier to hit the mpg target vs a sedan?
I'd like to see that assertion actually supported with evidence.
Making a heavier car, with higher ground clearance, and a less aerodynamic shape (squared rear) means it will get less mpg by default.
So what makes it easier to hit the mpg target vs a sedan?
How about reading the thread, where this is explained.
Bigger cars dominate because a) consumers want them b) manufactures make higher margins on them c) ZIRP enabled higher spending, and d) the push to electrification was the point, not some unintended consequence.
The CAFE standards were introduced in 1975[1]. I’m on my phone so investigating links properly is awkward, but it appears the footprint legislation was brought into effect in 2008[2]. Or in other words, before Obama.
I had to go and double check because a fact I was certain of was the PT Cruiser was designed to be classified as a light truck in order to require a lower CAFE standard, far before the 2008 reform. I’m sure there are many examples of this. The system in general is gamed aggressively. I can give a recent example:
The Honda CR-V. Look at the front bumpers of a European and US spec car
European: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Honda_CR...
US: https://file.kelleybluebookimages.com/kbb/base/house/2012/20...
The difference in front bumpers is due to a front approach angle requirement in CAFE’s regulations (18 degrees, off the top of my head?) to get a light truck classification.
Footprint isn’t really the issue. It’s related, and certainly why cars are getting bigger than they once were, but to my understanding the bounds of footprint for each classification hasn’t changed since the legislation was brought in, while cars are ballooning regardless. I think part of it is just consumer preference for more car.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy
[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20081216085824/http://www.nhtsa....
I had to go and double check because a fact I was certain of was the PT Cruiser was designed to be classified as a light truck in order to require a lower CAFE standard, far before the 2008 reform. I’m sure there are many examples of this. The system in general is gamed aggressively. I can give a recent example:
The Honda CR-V. Look at the front bumpers of a European and US spec car
European: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Honda_CR...
US: https://file.kelleybluebookimages.com/kbb/base/house/2012/20...
The difference in front bumpers is due to a front approach angle requirement in CAFE’s regulations (18 degrees, off the top of my head?) to get a light truck classification.
Footprint isn’t really the issue. It’s related, and certainly why cars are getting bigger than they once were, but to my understanding the bounds of footprint for each classification hasn’t changed since the legislation was brought in, while cars are ballooning regardless. I think part of it is just consumer preference for more car.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy
[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20081216085824/http://www.nhtsa....
Most sold car in world (model y) is a crossover where MPG doesn't apply. I think people simply car about practicality and comfort far more than emissions or safety.
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