An Alabama landline that keeps ringing(oxfordamerican.org)
oxfordamerican.org
An Alabama landline that keeps ringing
https://oxfordamerican.org/oa-now/the-alabama-landline-that-keeps-ringing
112 comments
War damn!
Talking about being lost in the Haley center gave me flashbacks to freshman year. I still have dreams sometimes of trying to find the stairwell/elevator bank and the layout keeps changing like the backrooms.
Talking about being lost in the Haley center gave me flashbacks to freshman year. I still have dreams sometimes of trying to find the stairwell/elevator bank and the layout keeps changing like the backrooms.
WDE!
Ugh, yeah, some of those hallways especially in 1st and 4th quadrants where there aren't very many classrooms and not many people can have a very, very liminal space feel to them. I can totally understand how he got lost in there.
Literally nothing about that building makes any sense unless you stand on your head until you almost pass out. :D
Ugh, yeah, some of those hallways especially in 1st and 4th quadrants where there aren't very many classrooms and not many people can have a very, very liminal space feel to them. I can totally understand how he got lost in there.
Literally nothing about that building makes any sense unless you stand on your head until you almost pass out. :D
WDE! I remember calling the Foy desk one night (this would have been late 80’s) because someone at a party said “It says Crun-chy” in a Paul Lynde voice and we couldn’t remember the name of the rat from Charlotte’s Web (Templeton).
But do you remember how many bricks there are in Haley Center?
James E. Foy Information Desk
Jim “Dean Foy” Foy was a wonderful human being.
I got to know him a little through Rotary in the last years of his life because I had an off and on honor of chauffeuring him to and from meetings in the Grand Caravan. Even got to bring my boy along on the days he didn’t have school.
He was an Auburn University legend — the Foy Information Desk was created when they remodeled Foy Hall. [1]
Anyway, ironically Jim graduated from Tuscaloosa despite his Auburn being his familial allegiance. The Boll Weevil drove his parents out of Eufala and to Tuscaloosa for work and so he went to college there.
During the war he flew Corsairs and told me and the boy about bailing out and hanging from a tree as we drove home from a meeting.
He’d been Club president in 1953 and had 100% attendance for about 60 years. And always led the Club in a War Eagle before home football games until he couldn’t.
I am truly blessed to have spent time with Jim and more blessed that my boy now man did.
[1] At the time, the plan was to rename the building, but Google streetview shows that didn’t happen and now even the street is named for Jim. Yeah he was that big a deal.
Jim “Dean Foy” Foy was a wonderful human being.
I got to know him a little through Rotary in the last years of his life because I had an off and on honor of chauffeuring him to and from meetings in the Grand Caravan. Even got to bring my boy along on the days he didn’t have school.
He was an Auburn University legend — the Foy Information Desk was created when they remodeled Foy Hall. [1]
Anyway, ironically Jim graduated from Tuscaloosa despite his Auburn being his familial allegiance. The Boll Weevil drove his parents out of Eufala and to Tuscaloosa for work and so he went to college there.
During the war he flew Corsairs and told me and the boy about bailing out and hanging from a tree as we drove home from a meeting.
He’d been Club president in 1953 and had 100% attendance for about 60 years. And always led the Club in a War Eagle before home football games until he couldn’t.
I am truly blessed to have spent time with Jim and more blessed that my boy now man did.
[1] At the time, the plan was to rename the building, but Google streetview shows that didn’t happen and now even the street is named for Jim. Yeah he was that big a deal.
800-GOOG-411 was planned to do a similar thing; the difference is that was online for 3 years and unceremoniously shut down, versus this one which is still in operation 72 years later.
It's pretty well understood (and was at the time) that the project was aimed at collecting voice sample data for further voice-recognition and AI work:
"Google Shuts Down GOOG-411" (October 9, 2010)
The service has helped Google build a large database of voice samples and improved the voice recognition technology. Here's what Google's Marissa Mayer said about GOOG-411:
"The speech recognition experts that we have say: If you want us to build a really robust speech model, we need a lot of phonemes, which is a syllable as spoken by a particular voice with a particular intonation. So we need a lot of people talking, saying things so that we can ultimately train off of that. ... So 1-800-GOOG-411 is about that: Getting a bunch of different speech samples so that when you call up or we're trying to get the voice out of video, we can do it with high accuracy."
<https://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2010/10/google-shuts-down-...>
""The 411 Parable": Make sure you are playing the same game." (2011)
But just when the "head-to-head" competition was rolling Google announced GOOG-411 was no more... they'd captured all the human speech they needed to train their algorithms and were on to bigger and better things... Huh, voice recognition... algorithms?
<https://web.archive.org/web/20130810032940/http://buildconte...>
Not that the sudden death didn't kill what was at the time a useful service, and squander goodwill in the process.
"Google Shuts Down GOOG-411" (October 9, 2010)
The service has helped Google build a large database of voice samples and improved the voice recognition technology. Here's what Google's Marissa Mayer said about GOOG-411:
"The speech recognition experts that we have say: If you want us to build a really robust speech model, we need a lot of phonemes, which is a syllable as spoken by a particular voice with a particular intonation. So we need a lot of people talking, saying things so that we can ultimately train off of that. ... So 1-800-GOOG-411 is about that: Getting a bunch of different speech samples so that when you call up or we're trying to get the voice out of video, we can do it with high accuracy."
<https://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2010/10/google-shuts-down-...>
""The 411 Parable": Make sure you are playing the same game." (2011)
But just when the "head-to-head" competition was rolling Google announced GOOG-411 was no more... they'd captured all the human speech they needed to train their algorithms and were on to bigger and better things... Huh, voice recognition... algorithms?
<https://web.archive.org/web/20130810032940/http://buildconte...>
Not that the sudden death didn't kill what was at the time a useful service, and squander goodwill in the process.
Google has squandered so much good will over the years. This is a good example: expenses wouldn't even be a rounding error, and it could have given so many average folks a positive experience with the company.
It probably would have turned into a customer service line for all of their products they notoriously fail to adequately support.
This is a good theory and may have been an actual motivation to shut it down.
This isn't what goog-411 was. You would dial Google's 1800 number, and then tell a voice prompt the name of the business and location, and google would try and automate looking the business up and then route the call for you by ringing them automatically. In the pre-smart phone era, this would allow you to call a business with just your dumb phone. GOOG-411 is completely worthless in the smart phone era (discontinued in 2010).
It's worth mentioning that goog-411 enabled at least a couple very niche internet subcultures in the early 2000's. When skype brought in free 1800 calling, GOOG-411 could be used as a way to dial any business with skype for free (so no credit card info associated with an account). Think Xbox live lobbies but its a dozen kids on a call, muted, and taking turns unmuting to prank call (harass) businesses all day. I watched a childhood friend spend a summer doing this with a group he met playing mmo's/forums, two of which ended up making it as famous streamers over a decade later. I imagine this experience is very common for a type of kid that grew up online in a certain era (mw2), and google could probably see the tool was garnering a disproportionate amount of abuse
("Do you guys have battletoads?")
It's worth mentioning that goog-411 enabled at least a couple very niche internet subcultures in the early 2000's. When skype brought in free 1800 calling, GOOG-411 could be used as a way to dial any business with skype for free (so no credit card info associated with an account). Think Xbox live lobbies but its a dozen kids on a call, muted, and taking turns unmuting to prank call (harass) businesses all day. I watched a childhood friend spend a summer doing this with a group he met playing mmo's/forums, two of which ended up making it as famous streamers over a decade later. I imagine this experience is very common for a type of kid that grew up online in a certain era (mw2), and google could probably see the tool was garnering a disproportionate amount of abuse
("Do you guys have battletoads?")
This isn't what goog-411 was. You would dial Google's 1800 number, and then tell a voice prompt the name of the business and location, and google would try and automate looking the business up and then route the call for you by ringing them automatically. In the pre-smart phone era, this would allow you to call a business with just your dumb phone. GOOG-411 is completely worthless in the smart phone era (discontinued in 2010).
It's worth mentioning that goog-411 enabled at least a couple very niche internet subcultures in the early 2000's. When skype brought in free 1800 calling, GOOG-411 could be used as a way to dial any business with skype for free (so no credit card info associated with an account). Think Xbox live lobbies but its a dozen kids on a call, muted, and taking turns unmuting to prank call (harass) businesses all day. I watched a childhood friend spend a summer doing this with a group he met playing mmo's/forums, two of which ended up making it as famous streamers over a decade later. I imagine this experience is very common for a type of kid that grew up online in a certain era (mw2), and google could probably see the tool was garnering a disproportionate amount of abuse
It's worth mentioning that goog-411 enabled at least a couple very niche internet subcultures in the early 2000's. When skype brought in free 1800 calling, GOOG-411 could be used as a way to dial any business with skype for free (so no credit card info associated with an account). Think Xbox live lobbies but its a dozen kids on a call, muted, and taking turns unmuting to prank call (harass) businesses all day. I watched a childhood friend spend a summer doing this with a group he met playing mmo's/forums, two of which ended up making it as famous streamers over a decade later. I imagine this experience is very common for a type of kid that grew up online in a certain era (mw2), and google could probably see the tool was garnering a disproportionate amount of abuse
Would that have been so terrible?
If you're a company trying to make as much money while spending at little money as possible, yes.
I'm still using 2 RSS readers (Inoreader and TheOldReader) that I switched to after Google Reader shut down.
Aha! Minor blast from the past. I just realised my a/c might still be alive on there and there it was. I think I logged in after 3 or 4 years. Old Reader. I think I had deleted my a/c on Ino Reader. I used to follow couple of niche Hindi blogs and they shut down years ago; some Engish language as well (from all over the world). Most of them were anon. I kept coming back for years but they were gone. That's what killed the RSS/blogs for me, not the demise of Google Reader. It stopped being the place I knew in my own individual/idiosyncratic way.
I suspect something similar would happen to podcasts for me, maybe sooner than I am hoping for. And podcast player apps.
I suspect something similar would happen to podcasts for me, maybe sooner than I am hoping for. And podcast player apps.
The true Google way, someone got a promotion and then the product dies.
Even their SMS api (GOOGLE) was shut down. That was just an automated google search and didn’t have to be staffed. Used it all the time to ask a trivia question or convert some units or get nearby locations. Like text pizza and my zip code and it would reply with 3 names and phone numbers. It made dumb phones smart.
Yeah but... who still uses dumbphones?
Ever been in an airport with no WiFi and overloaded cell towers? Text doesn't use much bandwidth no matter how it's transmitted (SMS, RCS, or data).
My "daily driver" is a dumb Consumer Cellular Link II.
SMS based services are useful to me when traveling without my laptop.
SMS based services are useful to me when traveling without my laptop.
Cha-Cha was first
It would be somewhat niche, but if you have an iPhone and somehow wanted the Hey Google reaction instead of Siri, could still find use as a hands-free information source.
How about calling 1-800-CHATGPT (1-800-242-8478) now ?
Wonder how many queries which the university is calling can now be automated
Wonder how many queries which the university is calling can now be automated
Where’s the joy in that? We don’t have to replace humans for everything.
What a fun surprise to hear about the Foy info desk on HN! When I went to student orientation at Auburn, they made a point to call the desk as a demonstration and ask how many M&Ms would fit into Jordan-Hare Stadium. The answer was provided in under a minute.
Back in the early 2010s when I was going to Auburn, the smartphone internet was still pretty young. It wasn't uncommon to call the Foy info desk to settle an argument.
Really makes me want to swing back to Auburn for a visit. War damn Eagle!
Back in the early 2010s when I was going to Auburn, the smartphone internet was still pretty young. It wasn't uncommon to call the Foy info desk to settle an argument.
Really makes me want to swing back to Auburn for a visit. War damn Eagle!
[deleted]
Somewhere someone is probably still working as an elevator operator too. Like when I was a kid I had a job shoveling coal into a boiler. And someone is still manufacturing buggy whips. The future is unevenly distributed. Call Bunny Watson and ask her, she'll confirm.
Elevator operators are pretty common at arena events. I think to help ensure the elevators aren't under or overloaded.
Of course, observation towers tend to have elevator operators too.
Of course, observation towers tend to have elevator operators too.
I think the GP is referring to manually operated elevators, in which a human inside the elevator pulls a lever to tell the elevator when to move. When I was a kid, my dad worked in a building with a semi-automated elevator that had floor buttons and an automatic return to the ground floor, but still had the lever. There was an operator inside on weekdays, but if you came in on the weekend you had to operate the elevator yourself.
I worked at a building in San Francisco (589 Howard St) that still was fully manual. You controlled when the elevator stopped, lifted the gate by yourself to get out, the whole works.
There was a safety mechanism where, IIRC, the gate on one of the floors wasn't closed, none of the other floors could call the elevator, so it was a bit of a pain. Even though we were on the top floor, it was pretty rare for anyone to use it.
There was a safety mechanism where, IIRC, the gate on one of the floors wasn't closed, none of the other floors could call the elevator, so it was a bit of a pain. Even though we were on the top floor, it was pretty rare for anyone to use it.
I think it was in Lima, not many years ago (6? 8?) that I saw in a federal building the elevators were manually operated. They had physically disabled persons in charge of them, so I guess it was a way of integrating some of those jobs.
Still quite common in NYC. There’s a bit of a social distinction between doorman buildings and elevator-man buildings, and some people prefer the latter.
As recently as five years ago, the Fine Arts Building on Michigan Ave. in Chicago employed elevator operators. It probably still does.
They’re being replaced.
https://wgntv.com/news/cover-story/fine-arts-building-manual...
https://wgntv.com/news/cover-story/fine-arts-building-manual...
Here's a song inspired by a real elevator operator that works an elevator at the Chicago House of Blues:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiP0FpY88E4
The song is naturally called Elevator Operator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiP0FpY88E4
The song is naturally called Elevator Operator.
There's probably some high bureaucracy workplace somewhere where only certain people are allowed to use the freight elevator but it needs to be used by others so much they just station someone who can use it there.
There are still elevators that you need to be certified to use like mine elevators, and other form of commercial/construction devices so you could certainly see an elevator operator existing in one of those places.
I know of an elevator that is also a ticketed access point to a stadium so the elevator operator also scans tickets and gives out wristbands. Very nice for wheeled accessibility.
They still exist in certain NYC buildings
Either cause the elevator is super old or because union contracts require them.
Then there are hospitals I’ve been in that have them.
Either cause the elevator is super old or because union contracts require them.
Then there are hospitals I’ve been in that have them.
I visited a shopping mall in India in 2019 that still employed elevator operators.
I was hoping for a Desk Set reference; thank you.
elevator operators are still in use in NYC
What a heartbreaking way to end that article... but, what a way to make the message stick.
I was wondering if that missing period was intentional…
We got an old landline big red phone and we had it for quite a while using Magic Jack. It was a fun anachronism to have and use and give out to friends as a number we will always hear if it rings. I'm going to get it again when we move in a few weeks to a new house. As my friend Nick described it when we got rid of it- "It feels like the world lost a bit of whimsy". The world we live in needs whimsy.
The Red Phone
https://www.amazon.com/Desk-Telephone-2500-Analog-Phone/dp/B...
The Red Phone
https://www.amazon.com/Desk-Telephone-2500-Analog-Phone/dp/B...
We still have one and our younger kids use it to call their friends. We refuse to provide them “smart” phones - at least for now.
I remember RPI had something like this in the 1990s. I can't remember what it was called though. But I do remember how impressed everyone was: if you call this phone number, they can answer ANY question!
I believe those of us who were around from then to now experienced peak information. We went from having to look things up in libraries to being able to find anything with a Google search. We're on the downward slope now. Business models have changed, spamvertisers are winning the war against search, and generative AI slop is already the dominant source of "content", ensuring the genie can never be put back. This is not an anti-AI rant, it is just an acknowledgement that like so many things, we were foolish to think that access to information was just going to keep getting better. I did not expect that in my lifetime, I would see the best it was ever going to be.
Maybe in the future, calling a trained human for help will be the only way to sort through the mountain of infogarbage to find something. Or we'll have to go back to the library.
I believe those of us who were around from then to now experienced peak information. We went from having to look things up in libraries to being able to find anything with a Google search. We're on the downward slope now. Business models have changed, spamvertisers are winning the war against search, and generative AI slop is already the dominant source of "content", ensuring the genie can never be put back. This is not an anti-AI rant, it is just an acknowledgement that like so many things, we were foolish to think that access to information was just going to keep getting better. I did not expect that in my lifetime, I would see the best it was ever going to be.
Maybe in the future, calling a trained human for help will be the only way to sort through the mountain of infogarbage to find something. Or we'll have to go back to the library.
I remember “learning to use the library” was a thing growing up in the 90’s. It was funny because we’d come far along enough with the internet stuff that even the adults teaching this basically knew it was going to be a very niche skill. But still, something that every educated person was supposed to know how to do.
That's still an important skill! You might think that everything that can be digitized has been and is easily available online, but that's not the case. Especially so for more obscure books and publications that are mostly relevant to your local area.
When I moved to my current town and visited their library, I very quickly found some books written about the local area for which not much info existed online. It's a great way to spend some time if you're into that kind of thing!
When I moved to my current town and visited their library, I very quickly found some books written about the local area for which not much info existed online. It's a great way to spend some time if you're into that kind of thing!
Sadly, I agree with you.
More optimistically, I hope doubt about know whether you are dealing with a real person or an LLM will encourage people to be more social offline.
More optimistically, I hope doubt about know whether you are dealing with a real person or an LLM will encourage people to be more social offline.
I worked a reference desk around the turn of the century. Your public library probably still has one, though I think they may be pooled across different areas now, I'm not sure.
[deleted]
I went to Auburn just as the internet was beginning. When the internet was only available on Sun Workstations in the basement of the math building using the Mosaic web browser. Calling Foy was our Google.
Haha, I’m on such another plane of technology these days, my initial reaction upon reading the headline was that there was some persistent seismic event near the border of Mississippi xD
Got accosted by a popup when I entered the site so I bounced. Tip: If you want users to read your content, don't cover it up.
https://i.imgur.com/uTmqaox.png
https://i.imgur.com/uTmqaox.png
Your loss.
Not really. I bounce from almost every website that gives me some GDPR, newsletter, or whatever popup. "Click to read full article?" F that, you should have pre-expanded it for me.
I'm doing fine, I already have enough information overload from places that are willing to distribute it to me.
Goddamn, arXiv is my favorite website now, PDFs don't pop up any of that shit.
I'm doing fine, I already have enough information overload from places that are willing to distribute it to me.
Goddamn, arXiv is my favorite website now, PDFs don't pop up any of that shit.
I feel like a lot of schools had this kind of number to ask questions, including my undergrad. Though I don’t think they go back 70 years.
A popular question was “how many severed heads can fit into our stadium” and a couple of kids reasoned it out.
A popular question was “how many severed heads can fit into our stadium” and a couple of kids reasoned it out.
This kind of gave me the vibes of an SCP: a mysterious eternal phone number you could call and get answers to anything —anything— except perhaps about the phone line itself.
I have called them,simply, twice only to thank them for their work.
This reminds me of the 1957 movie Desk Set. Katherine Hepburn works at a reference desk like Foy Desk that’s under threat of automation.
The NY Public Library used to have similar service. Been few years since I tried it.
I’m actually curious if anyone knows how they’ve adapted it for a LLM-era
I’m actually curious if anyone knows how they’ve adapted it for a LLM-era
This is amazing. Feels similar to college radio: still more incredible than it should be for a "dying" medium.
This is such a lovely read! I might even call the line later today.
Very sweet.
It's probably voip :/
So what?
Do you mean it is not analog and latency is higher as a result? Then yes, it matters. I hate latency in voice calls, I already went into arguments because of that.
I remember in a remote work meeting, we had a frantic discussion, with some disagreements and strong opinions, but it was productive and purely technical, nothing personal. But then someone angrily told me "stop interrupting me!", the thing is, I wasn't, and then, I realized that the latency was messing with us. Because of the latency, from her point of view, I interrupted her, and from mine, she interrupted me. That's when I realized how much it mattered, we simply can't have a normal conversation with high latency. Either we deliberately take turns, as if it was a traditional 2-way radio communication, or we may get these awkward situations, neither feel natural.
High latency can be as little as 100ms (corresponding to about 30m of distance in real life).
Do you mean it is not analog and latency is higher as a result? Then yes, it matters. I hate latency in voice calls, I already went into arguments because of that.
I remember in a remote work meeting, we had a frantic discussion, with some disagreements and strong opinions, but it was productive and purely technical, nothing personal. But then someone angrily told me "stop interrupting me!", the thing is, I wasn't, and then, I realized that the latency was messing with us. Because of the latency, from her point of view, I interrupted her, and from mine, she interrupted me. That's when I realized how much it mattered, we simply can't have a normal conversation with high latency. Either we deliberately take turns, as if it was a traditional 2-way radio communication, or we may get these awkward situations, neither feel natural.
High latency can be as little as 100ms (corresponding to about 30m of distance in real life).
It still bothers me. Analog and TDM voice was magical and we didn't appreciate it until it was gone. VoIP was so much cheaper, the latency became the norm, and people who've never known anything different simply have no idea what was lost.
It used to be that if you had two landlines in a large room, you could call one from the other, and your voice would go into one phone, electrically go across town into the switch, back out the other line, and out the other phone, before the soundwaves traveled the length of the room. It was _so_ good.
It used to be that if you had two landlines in a large room, you could call one from the other, and your voice would go into one phone, electrically go across town into the switch, back out the other line, and out the other phone, before the soundwaves traveled the length of the room. It was _so_ good.
> interrupting [... timing ...] turns
There's an old linguistics tale, AFAIR fuzzily, of Inuit kids going off to boarding school, and upon return, having lost interest in hearing from adults. The kids believe the adults have little to say to them. ... Because the kids' conversational turn-taking invitation pauses had shortened, and were going unrecognized.
> as if it was a traditional 2-way radio communication
If there was a low-latency side-channel for the end-points to coordinate, they might provide mic clicks and carrier noise for awareness? Like an electric car playing engine rumble.
There's an old linguistics tale, AFAIR fuzzily, of Inuit kids going off to boarding school, and upon return, having lost interest in hearing from adults. The kids believe the adults have little to say to them. ... Because the kids' conversational turn-taking invitation pauses had shortened, and were going unrecognized.
> as if it was a traditional 2-way radio communication
If there was a low-latency side-channel for the end-points to coordinate, they might provide mic clicks and carrier noise for awareness? Like an electric car playing engine rumble.
> Do you mean it is not analog and latency is higher as a result?
Digital teleophony doesn't imply significant latency. PRI calling (T1/ISDN) is digital, but the sampling delay is minimal, and it's sent one sample at a time, so there's no packetization delay.
VoIP tends to run a codec with sampling/encoding delays, and tends to be at least 20ms packetization, and then you have a jitter buffer and probably input and output buffering too.
Digital teleophony doesn't imply significant latency. PRI calling (T1/ISDN) is digital, but the sampling delay is minimal, and it's sent one sample at a time, so there's no packetization delay.
VoIP tends to run a codec with sampling/encoding delays, and tends to be at least 20ms packetization, and then you have a jitter buffer and probably input and output buffering too.
The main problem is packet switching instead of circuit switching. Internet sucks for voice
Almost all my calls these days are via OTT VoIP (FaceTime, WhatsApp, Zoom etc.), and I really can't say I notice much of a qualitative difference to old PCM lines – if anything, the opposite is the case; wideband voice makes longer phone calls much more bearable.
And that's over unprioritized 5G/LTE and Wi-Fi. Properly prioritized VoIP, such as the one used in VoLTE and NGN networks, should have even better jitter and latency characteristics.
And that's over unprioritized 5G/LTE and Wi-Fi. Properly prioritized VoIP, such as the one used in VoLTE and NGN networks, should have even better jitter and latency characteristics.
I mean.... when was the last time you made a call that was full analog/PRI? Did you notice that cell phones had higher latency than landlines?
30-40 ms latency is probably the lower bound on a VoIP call [1]; most calls will be a lot more. But you might not notice it if that's all you have access to, or if all of your calls are long distance that it would never be good anyway. On long distance, you probably have a better transmission delay now over internet than you would have had over telephone networks, as cable routes have improved and routing is often more direct; that will probably offset some of the packetization delay.
[1] You can do better, but it involves having great connectivity and sending lots of very small packets, and mainstream calling isn't willing to send 200 packets per second of 5 ms of samples when most people don't notice/complain about the latency when sending 50 packets per second with 20 ms of samples.
30-40 ms latency is probably the lower bound on a VoIP call [1]; most calls will be a lot more. But you might not notice it if that's all you have access to, or if all of your calls are long distance that it would never be good anyway. On long distance, you probably have a better transmission delay now over internet than you would have had over telephone networks, as cable routes have improved and routing is often more direct; that will probably offset some of the packetization delay.
[1] You can do better, but it involves having great connectivity and sending lots of very small packets, and mainstream calling isn't willing to send 200 packets per second of 5 ms of samples when most people don't notice/complain about the latency when sending 50 packets per second with 20 ms of samples.
> when was the last time you made a call that was full analog/PRI?
Probably 15-20 years ago? That would have most likely been over DECT, though, which adds 10 or so ms by itself (our wired landline phone was in a slightly awkward location :)
> Did you notice that cell phones had higher latency than landlines?
Compared to landlines, the most noticeable aspect of GSM wasn't the latency (unless the person on the other line was right next to me, in which case there was an echo), but rather the absolute potato quality compared to both G.711 landlines and modern VoIP codecs.
> mainstream calling isn't willing to send 200 packets per second of 5 ms of samples
Yeah, that would probably be too much overhead for most applications. But now you got me wondering: Do video calls have lower latency audio (assuming the codec can do better than 20ms in the first place), given that there's probably much more data available to send at any given time?
Probably 15-20 years ago? That would have most likely been over DECT, though, which adds 10 or so ms by itself (our wired landline phone was in a slightly awkward location :)
> Did you notice that cell phones had higher latency than landlines?
Compared to landlines, the most noticeable aspect of GSM wasn't the latency (unless the person on the other line was right next to me, in which case there was an echo), but rather the absolute potato quality compared to both G.711 landlines and modern VoIP codecs.
> mainstream calling isn't willing to send 200 packets per second of 5 ms of samples
Yeah, that would probably be too much overhead for most applications. But now you got me wondering: Do video calls have lower latency audio (assuming the codec can do better than 20ms in the first place), given that there's probably much more data available to send at any given time?
> Do video calls have lower latency audio (assuming the codec can do better than 20ms in the first place), given that there's probably much more data available to send at any given time?
At least for WebRTC, no. The audio and video streams are separate, there's no mechanism in WebRTC to piggyback audio onto video packets. If the receiver is synchronizing audio with video, there's potential for additional delay (but when A/V sync works, it's probably worth it)
I don't know details about WhatsApp calling (although I worked there, I didn't touch the realtime calling stack), I think it does use RTP which isn't really built around piggybacking, but since it's a closed service, they can do whatever. No idea about Apple's calling either.
At least for WebRTC, no. The audio and video streams are separate, there's no mechanism in WebRTC to piggyback audio onto video packets. If the receiver is synchronizing audio with video, there's potential for additional delay (but when A/V sync works, it's probably worth it)
I don't know details about WhatsApp calling (although I worked there, I didn't touch the realtime calling stack), I think it does use RTP which isn't really built around piggybacking, but since it's a closed service, they can do whatever. No idea about Apple's calling either.
Ye latency is a major headache. You can't gave normal conversations. I think it is mainly a property of overloaded servers and background noise cancelling etc.
I didn't have these problens when running Ventrilo or old p2p Skype.
I didn't have these problens when running Ventrilo or old p2p Skype.
> So what?
It's not a microphone in a reciever oscillating a copper line. In my opinion, if it's voip it's not a "landline".
It's not a microphone in a reciever oscillating a copper line. In my opinion, if it's voip it's not a "landline".
For me, if it is a line and it goes through the land (i.e. by wire/fiber), then it is a landline. As opposed to signals going through the air, i.e. by radio.
Except in very special cases, like emergency phones in ships, it is never a direct connection, there are at least amplifiers in the middle. So between a direct connection from the microphone to the speaker at the other end and VoIP, where do you draw the line? (pun not intended)
Except in very special cases, like emergency phones in ships, it is never a direct connection, there are at least amplifiers in the middle. So between a direct connection from the microphone to the speaker at the other end and VoIP, where do you draw the line? (pun not intended)
There almost certainly still is one – from the handset or headset to the VoIP desk phone :)
how far is the deep learning stack close to replacing them?
They were already “replaced” by the internet decades ago, but people keep calling. As the article explains, there are still people in the US without access to the internet or knowledge of how to use it, as well as a lot of people who just want to talk to a human being.
You can call 1-800-CHATGPT if you want, but there’s clearly still a place for this service.
You can call 1-800-CHATGPT if you want, but there’s clearly still a place for this service.
By definition, it will never replace "them."
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You could hook up one of the voice based LLMs to do this instead of the students.
The value, it would seem, comes from it being precisely not that.
Being precisely not a mobile app. I am saying that they can expose this functionality through the phone system like they are currently doing.
The point of it all is the human connection - not the answers.
The AI can provide both the human connection and the answers.
It is a severe reach to say that AI can provide human connection. At best, it can provide the illusion, for some. And for those people, I'm not going to say that that's not valuable or legitimate for them. But it's pushing it one step too far to imply that that's a good idea for everyone.
God help us if we determine there is nothing special about human cognition. A lot of people are putting a lot of faith in what amounts to the soul. I’m not at all sure it exists.
Existence of a/the soul isn't the only reason machines cannot replace people in the context of something like this.
One reason is that the human experience is dependent upon the biological nature of man. The biological systems color the experience. The pumping of blood, the nervous system, the heart beating, and ultimately, one's awareness of the specific type of mortality inherent to biological organisms, are integral to the experience. If you accurately reproduce that experience then perhaps you've simply made a human rather than a machine. Of course that claim spurs many subsequent philosophical arguments. Ultimately though, a video game console emulator is not the literal console no matter how accurate it is.
A second reason is simply the subjective experience of a person. Regardless of how accurate the simulation is, ultimately, if the person is aware the other end isn't human, the experience is tainted (for better or worse depending on the individual's opinion - but tainted nonetheless). Knowledge of the truth will necessarily affect the experience. The alternative - being in the dark or outright deception - raises other questions of genuinity that taint the experience.
A conversation with a human, by another human, will never be the same as a conversation with a machine - by definition.
One reason is that the human experience is dependent upon the biological nature of man. The biological systems color the experience. The pumping of blood, the nervous system, the heart beating, and ultimately, one's awareness of the specific type of mortality inherent to biological organisms, are integral to the experience. If you accurately reproduce that experience then perhaps you've simply made a human rather than a machine. Of course that claim spurs many subsequent philosophical arguments. Ultimately though, a video game console emulator is not the literal console no matter how accurate it is.
A second reason is simply the subjective experience of a person. Regardless of how accurate the simulation is, ultimately, if the person is aware the other end isn't human, the experience is tainted (for better or worse depending on the individual's opinion - but tainted nonetheless). Knowledge of the truth will necessarily affect the experience. The alternative - being in the dark or outright deception - raises other questions of genuinity that taint the experience.
A conversation with a human, by another human, will never be the same as a conversation with a machine - by definition.
Both can be true. There can be nothing physically or metaphysically "special" about human cognition, and at the same time, we can also be very, very far away from creating even a holistic facsimile. We've got echoes of it in statistical, predictive models, though, and that's shoved the idea into the discourse far before its time.
I agree. My point is that if there’s no mystic soul, it’s probably a mistake to say AI can’t provide the same actual connection that humans do. Today’s AI can’t, for most people, but it’s a statement about maturity of the tech, not human special-ness.
I also maybe agree with “very very far away”, in the 20ish year range. Farther than some people think, closer than others do.
If and when we get to a place where AI reaches that holistic facsimile, I’m not sure what I’ll think of humans who reject the idea and insist that we are qualitatively different because (insert biological or spiritual rationale here). I suspect it will feel like seeing someone mistreat a call center employee because they happen to be in India, or sound like a disliked minority.
I also maybe agree with “very very far away”, in the 20ish year range. Farther than some people think, closer than others do.
If and when we get to a place where AI reaches that holistic facsimile, I’m not sure what I’ll think of humans who reject the idea and insist that we are qualitatively different because (insert biological or spiritual rationale here). I suspect it will feel like seeing someone mistreat a call center employee because they happen to be in India, or sound like a disliked minority.
> probably a mistake to say AI can’t provide the same actual connection that humans do.
Almost as a matter of definition by the time AI can provide such a connection there won't be anything distinguishing it from an actual human. Which is to say, what you're implying there is an artificially manufactured but fully functional human.
Almost as a matter of definition by the time AI can provide such a connection there won't be anything distinguishing it from an actual human. Which is to say, what you're implying there is an artificially manufactured but fully functional human.
And the illusion only has to last the duration of a phone call. I think it's a reasonable bar that can be passed today.
It cannot because it is not human. It can emulate the experience but it will never be genuine. Generally, if a caller ever became aware that it wasn't truly a person on the other end it would lessen the interaction. Whether that is justified or not is debatable, but it is nonetheless the case and thus the end result is not the same.
It may not be the same, but it could be a better overall experience compared to using humans.
Interesting point that I also alluded to elsewhere. The perspective of good/bad could vary highly depending on the individual. And really, it could vary highly based on what any one individual is looking for out of a particular conversation at that moment: unconditonal affirmation, critical obversations, etc.
For what definition of "better"?
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AI can provide a human connection if it’s programmed to route calls to a real human.
How can a machine provide a human connection on its own?
The same way a machine can pass the turing test.
I dont think communicating to text on a screen can ever be called 'a human connection', regardless of whether there is an actual human on the other side or not.
yes let's remove every social bond we have and replace it with a computer
Problem with voice based LLMs is that they don't know when it's their turn to talk.
You can already call 1-800-242-8478 if you want to talk to a computer, this is not that.
I had the opportunity to work the Foy Desk a few times during my undergrad at Auburn in the early 2000s - mostly as a volunteer while the regular workers would be in meetings. At the time we had a multi-page list of common questions and answers, the Internet (as it was then), as well as access to university computer systems for things like class schedule lookups.
The most common questions I got then were from other students, most around when a certain class started or where it was located. This is was the early 2000s and, while a lot of this was available via OASIS (the Auburn student system) for any student, many either didn't have the computer savvy to use it or ... didn't have a computer at home at all!
The most unusual call I took was from a student who was lost in Haley Center (the largest building on Auburn's campus - at the time, not sure about now as I haven't been back in decades - and somewhat difficult to navigate if you aren't familiar with its layout). The poor kid sounded absolutely panicked. I actually had to pull up a map and walk the him turn-by-turn until he found the main hallway again.
As an aside, it's neat to see a few other Auburn alums on here. WDE!