Ask HN: Recommandation for an Ergonomic Keyboard?
28 comments
I recommend calm and caution :)
You will quickly end up researching mechanical split keyboard market and start convincing yourself that 500-1000€ is not that expensive (sic!).
I made an adventure into mechanicals, around half a year on research and getting used to it. Configurability is amazing. Quality great. Noise was not a problem.
Ended up going back to some flat (laptop-like) dell keyboard and a vertical mouse instead. Because my hands started to stiffen up, hurt, the typical stuff. Keyboards were too high (with normal keys) and too expensive+weird (with low profile keys). I tried adding dedicated palm rests, changing habits a bit, changing bindings...
In the end I'm considering buying MS' Sculpt ergonomic keyboard again (it's the one that's actually split, low profile, with optional negative tilt. I think it's only sold with a mouse). It has a lot of flaws, but fatigue was not one of them.
What I'm trying to say: you may spend a lot of time, effort and money and still feel miserable. There are amazing builds out there, but don't forget non mechanical options exist.
You will quickly end up researching mechanical split keyboard market and start convincing yourself that 500-1000€ is not that expensive (sic!).
I made an adventure into mechanicals, around half a year on research and getting used to it. Configurability is amazing. Quality great. Noise was not a problem.
Ended up going back to some flat (laptop-like) dell keyboard and a vertical mouse instead. Because my hands started to stiffen up, hurt, the typical stuff. Keyboards were too high (with normal keys) and too expensive+weird (with low profile keys). I tried adding dedicated palm rests, changing habits a bit, changing bindings...
In the end I'm considering buying MS' Sculpt ergonomic keyboard again (it's the one that's actually split, low profile, with optional negative tilt. I think it's only sold with a mouse). It has a lot of flaws, but fatigue was not one of them.
What I'm trying to say: you may spend a lot of time, effort and money and still feel miserable. There are amazing builds out there, but don't forget non mechanical options exist.
RSI is a combination of "repetitive" and "strain". My take on it is that ergonomic keyboards that limit the amount of finger movement make your typing more repetitive - hence you need to be sure as hell that there is as little strain as possible.
I also went with a minimal split keyboard and quickly started to feel pain. When I however looked at my desk/chair/screen, I found that they don't promote the correct posture. Once these were corrected, I got no pain at all.
I think the right lesson is that this is a journey, rather than a problem you can throw some money at once and have it solved.
I also went with a minimal split keyboard and quickly started to feel pain. When I however looked at my desk/chair/screen, I found that they don't promote the correct posture. Once these were corrected, I got no pain at all.
I think the right lesson is that this is a journey, rather than a problem you can throw some money at once and have it solved.
You described it well.
You can spend insane money on hardware and still sit incorrectly.
You can spend insane money on hardware and still sit incorrectly.
Funny you mention that, I was comparing Moonlander (https://www.zsa.io/moonlander), Glove80 (https://www.moergo.com/) and Cyboard (https://cyboard.digital/) ...
Thanks for the advice!
Thanks for the advice!
Moonlander ... I think I still have a printer template to check if it fits my desk layout well...
Hacking keyboard I like the most, but it's still a gamble and add-ons almost double my cost. Too much for companies that don't have any distributor locally...
Hacking keyboard I like the most, but it's still a gamble and add-ons almost double my cost. Too much for companies that don't have any distributor locally...
Yeah I agree, the cost quickly rise!
I spent many years typing on the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Keyboard (which is slightly different, with laptop-style keys), but it completely eliminated my typing pain. I can now type comfortably at about 120-140 wpm for hours on end with no discomfort.
Once they discontinued it, InCase picked it back up: https://www.incase.com/collections/productivity-accessories/...
Along with maybe what looks like a replacement for your old one? https://www.incase.com/collections/productivity-accessories/...
There are also copycats (of the Sculpt). Two that I've tried and liked:
HP 960: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-960-ergonomic-wireless-...
Matias Sculpted Ergonomic Rechargeable Keyboard: https://matias.store/products/fk413d (small Canadian company, but they make an amazingly tiny USB-C dongle compatible with many of their products)
I ended up using the HP more than the others, preferring its keyfeel over the Matias. But both are well-built.
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If you don't want the mass-market stuff, there are also many companies making more hardcore ergo keyboards (two-part splits, vertical orientations, customizable keycaps, more natural/curved arrangements, etc.). But those typically cost multiple hundreds of dollars, rather than the $100-$120 or so for the off-the-shelf kind I listed above. And they just feel a bit too extreme for my tastes...
Once they discontinued it, InCase picked it back up: https://www.incase.com/collections/productivity-accessories/...
Along with maybe what looks like a replacement for your old one? https://www.incase.com/collections/productivity-accessories/...
There are also copycats (of the Sculpt). Two that I've tried and liked:
HP 960: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-960-ergonomic-wireless-...
Matias Sculpted Ergonomic Rechargeable Keyboard: https://matias.store/products/fk413d (small Canadian company, but they make an amazingly tiny USB-C dongle compatible with many of their products)
I ended up using the HP more than the others, preferring its keyfeel over the Matias. But both are well-built.
---------
If you don't want the mass-market stuff, there are also many companies making more hardcore ergo keyboards (two-part splits, vertical orientations, customizable keycaps, more natural/curved arrangements, etc.). But those typically cost multiple hundreds of dollars, rather than the $100-$120 or so for the off-the-shelf kind I listed above. And they just feel a bit too extreme for my tastes...
Wow, thank you for all these. I didn't knew Incase picked up the Microsoft keyboard but that's a good news (too bad they haven't restarted the "Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000", this one was my absolute favorite!
One thing that makes me hesitant to buy one of these, is that I'm hoping that with one such as the Moonlander or the Glove80, I can replace the used part easily, which should cost less in the long run (but maybe I'm wrong here).
One thing that makes me hesitant to buy one of these, is that I'm hoping that with one such as the Moonlander or the Glove80, I can replace the used part easily, which should cost less in the long run (but maybe I'm wrong here).
> I can replace the used part easily, which should cost less in the long run (but maybe I'm wrong here)
I'm not sure there. Keyboards are naturally consumables with moving and friction parts that will eventually need replacement. I'd be worried about whether those companies will still be around in a few years and still offer parts for older keyboards. I'm also not sure if replacing parts makes sense if the original one is 3x or 4x more expensive to begin with.
Personally, I'd just go with what feels most comfortable, and maybe buy two or three of them and store the extras. Paying a hundred or two for something you'll use every day for years isn't a big deal (hopefully), but comfort is!
I'm not sure there. Keyboards are naturally consumables with moving and friction parts that will eventually need replacement. I'd be worried about whether those companies will still be around in a few years and still offer parts for older keyboards. I'm also not sure if replacing parts makes sense if the original one is 3x or 4x more expensive to begin with.
Personally, I'd just go with what feels most comfortable, and maybe buy two or three of them and store the extras. Paying a hundred or two for something you'll use every day for years isn't a big deal (hopefully), but comfort is!
I've already spent quite some time looking up keyboards.
I think I've narrowed down to the following:
- Glove80
- Microsoft Ergonomic Desktop
- Perixx : PERIDUO-505
- Mobility Lab : Clavier Sans Fil Ergo K30W
- Kinesis MWave (It's QWERTY and I need an AZERTY but I believe I can move the keys around).
I think I've narrowed down to the following:
- Glove80
- Microsoft Ergonomic Desktop
- Perixx : PERIDUO-505
- Mobility Lab : Clavier Sans Fil Ergo K30W
- Kinesis MWave (It's QWERTY and I need an AZERTY but I believe I can move the keys around).
The Perixx I have is the periduo 505. I find the chick-let style keys annoying. I am often hitting the wrong keys. As opposed to before hitting the wrong keys occasionally. Easy to be off a whole row or left and right.
Incase has purchased/assumed Microsoft's accessory business and is manufacturing their ergonomic line of keyboards again, if that's your thing.
https://www.incase.com/collections/keyboards
https://www.incase.com/collections/keyboards
Thanks! That was one idea yes. Unfortunately it appears they don't support AZERTY keyboard :/
You could either try to repair it (it has probably only worn out switches that can be replaced by soldering new ones) or you could build one yourself (search for "github split keyboard choc v2"). There are many projects like Corne, lily58 and others.
Beware: Deep rabbit hole with hardly any escape... I built myself a non-ergo modded Logitech G515 with mill maxed Lofree Kailh Ghost switches (I eventually change this to Hades in the future), which was a ton of work, but I'm so happy everytime I use it.
If I had to buy one I would also have gone non-ergo with Wobkey Crush 80 or EvoWorks Evo 80.
The corne v4 is pretty popular and having Jlc3dp as a 3D print service all you need is time and patience. I recommend to also look for QMK / VIA Firmware as well as ZMK. They have lists of supported hardware.
Beware: Deep rabbit hole with hardly any escape... I built myself a non-ergo modded Logitech G515 with mill maxed Lofree Kailh Ghost switches (I eventually change this to Hades in the future), which was a ton of work, but I'm so happy everytime I use it.
If I had to buy one I would also have gone non-ergo with Wobkey Crush 80 or EvoWorks Evo 80.
The corne v4 is pretty popular and having Jlc3dp as a 3D print service all you need is time and patience. I recommend to also look for QMK / VIA Firmware as well as ZMK. They have lists of supported hardware.
I saw that the rabbit hole is deep, and I don't want to fall into that one (already slipped a bit). I don't want to solder mine, so buying one already built (such as the glove80 or the moonlander) is already taking too much time for me.
Repairing mine is not possible, it's the wrist support that is worn out and it's glued to the keyboard...
Repairing mine is not possible, it's the wrist support that is worn out and it's glued to the keyboard...
I used an MS Ergonomic for 10+ years at the office and a Kinesis Advantage for a similar amount of time at my home office. I'm now entirely home-based, and plan to use the Kinesis Advantage until it's no longer an option.
I'm on my second Kinesis. Something about the function key connection (they're on separate boards internally) made them start failing intermittently after 3-4 years. After the third failure Kinesis had discontinued the replacement parts and I replaced the whole keyboard with a newer revision that has redesigned function keys which are going strong so far.
Kinesis supports key remapping if that's a thing you need.
I'm on my second Kinesis. Something about the function key connection (they're on separate boards internally) made them start failing intermittently after 3-4 years. After the third failure Kinesis had discontinued the replacement parts and I replaced the whole keyboard with a newer revision that has redesigned function keys which are going strong so far.
Kinesis supports key remapping if that's a thing you need.
I believe there are only 2 excellent options. The Kinesis Advantage (360) or the Glove 80. Both are very expensive.
Still a bit more expensive, but most similar with your MS Natural Keyboard, is the Kinesis mWave.
Still a bit more expensive, but most similar with your MS Natural Keyboard, is the Kinesis mWave.
I went down to the path of split, tented, columnar keyboards and bought myself a Glove 80.
Despite expensive, I think the purchase was definitely worth it. I use it every day for 6-8 hours (I have a very keyboard centric workflow) and I have not a single regret.
Despite expensive, I think the purchase was definitely worth it. I use it every day for 6-8 hours (I have a very keyboard centric workflow) and I have not a single regret.
Yeah, Glove80 is one I consider, along with the Moonlander.
If the Natural Ergonomic keyboard works for you, why not put in an eBay search and buy a spare or two?
Even one new in box is unlikely to cost more than a current alternative if you are a little patient.
Since you mention "wired" there are boatloads of 4000's on the market all the time. Good luck.
Even one new in box is unlikely to cost more than a current alternative if you are a little patient.
Since you mention "wired" there are boatloads of 4000's on the market all the time. Good luck.
I bought one of the keyboard from https://ergodox-ez.com/ and I hate it.
I stopped using it as I could not get used to it.
I use a wired MS split ergonomic keyboard for daily work and seem happy with it. I use a simple logitech trackball as a pointing device.
I don't have any issues with this keyboard ..
I stopped using it as I could not get used to it.
I use a wired MS split ergonomic keyboard for daily work and seem happy with it. I use a simple logitech trackball as a pointing device.
I don't have any issues with this keyboard ..
hum! That's an interesting point of view.
I agree that the best thing would be to buy all the various keyboard I hesitate, use them for a while, and finally decide which one is best ... but it's costly :p
I agree that the best thing would be to buy all the various keyboard I hesitate, use them for a while, and finally decide which one is best ... but it's costly :p
Mine died a few years ago. I replaced it with one from 'perixx' but I kind of hate it. Not enough to get something else, because I have not found a better answer. I am excited to see if someone has a solution for you.
For now, I'm highly hesitant to take a Glove80 with an extra keypad for the numbers, but I still hesitate with one of the original (Microsoft ergonomic desktop, Mobility lab ergo k30W or Logitech K860 ergo, even though most are wireless)
I bought the glove in December 2024. I had a wrist issue, and using the glove solved the issue. It’s pretty uncommon for an ergonomic keyboard to be made for people with small hands (16 cm height), and the Glove80 is perfect for that.
My current "Microsoft Natural Ergonomic" Keyboard is starting to show its age and I'm looking to replace it.
Unfortunately, it seems that Microsoft and Logitech are not greatly looking to invest in the "ergonomic" area and I'm left wondering where to look for a *quality* keyboard that can live for years.
For my criteria (not much) I'm looking for a wavy and splitted in the middle keyboard (like the Natural Ergonomic Keyboard), or eventually two pieces of half keyboard, as long as they are wavy (I find it more easier on the wrist).
Ideally wired. I don't understand the purpose of having a wireless keyboard when used at a desk, except to have to plug it from time to time to charge its battery...
What would you recommend?
Thanks!