Career Asymtotes(molochinations.substack.com)
molochinations.substack.com
Career Asymtotes
https://molochinations.substack.com/p/career-asymptotes
58 comments
I had the pleasure of working with a handful of Pivots for about 2 years, and I have to say that felt like the closest I ever got to a healthy engineering culture. Delightful people, superb engineers, always focused on working and learning together. I feel really privileged to have worked in that environment.
For the first 10 years or so of my career, I didn’t even know my job title. I knew my pay, which is what I cared (and still care) about. They could call me the janitor as long as they paid me a good salary and the work didn’t change.
It wasn’t until one of my startups was bought by a big corp that I came to learn my job title, because suddenly it was tied to compensation. That mattered.
It wasn’t until one of my startups was bought by a big corp that I came to learn my job title, because suddenly it was tied to compensation. That mattered.
But you still had different pay, no? Seems like a clever way to make people less likely to complain about incentive package
> Measuring oneself as an engineer by the title of the salary band you're in is a disservice.
It's really not that deep - people do this because both a title and salary are effectively money you can bank and that's the only thing that matters - we don't work grueling, stressful, tedious, jobs just the sake of "a hard day's work".
> Not when I was promoted from Senior Engineer to Staff Engineer, but rather the after-hours work I did with Dimtriy to expand our offering to include IPv6.
I wish people would introspect more deeply instead of perpetuating toxic relationships with corporations; you're basically saying your most gratifying experience at work (where you are given a small slice of the net on your labor) was when you did something completely abstract and not when you got more money, more status, more whatever? Ok that's like saying my most gratifying experience at school was not when I graduated but when I had to sit in detention. Note I could've said "when I discovered XYZ mathematical principle" but I didn't because they're both equally as arbitrary in the overall scheme (learn skills and move into the workforce).
It's really not that deep - people do this because both a title and salary are effectively money you can bank and that's the only thing that matters - we don't work grueling, stressful, tedious, jobs just the sake of "a hard day's work".
> Not when I was promoted from Senior Engineer to Staff Engineer, but rather the after-hours work I did with Dimtriy to expand our offering to include IPv6.
I wish people would introspect more deeply instead of perpetuating toxic relationships with corporations; you're basically saying your most gratifying experience at work (where you are given a small slice of the net on your labor) was when you did something completely abstract and not when you got more money, more status, more whatever? Ok that's like saying my most gratifying experience at school was not when I graduated but when I had to sit in detention. Note I could've said "when I discovered XYZ mathematical principle" but I didn't because they're both equally as arbitrary in the overall scheme (learn skills and move into the workforce).
> are effectively money you can bank and that's the only thing that matters
We may have to agree to disagree here.
Not even just talking about the case where someone's worked in the tech industry long enough with a low enough expense lifestyle that money literally does not matter to them anymore...
A lot of people will work specific jobs not because they're trying to optimize for the most possible money.
We may have to agree to disagree here.
Not even just talking about the case where someone's worked in the tech industry long enough with a low enough expense lifestyle that money literally does not matter to them anymore...
A lot of people will work specific jobs not because they're trying to optimize for the most possible money.
> Not even just talking about the case where someone's worked in the tech industry long enough with a low enough expense lifestyle that money literally does not matter to them anymore...
This is the most out of touch (and also irrelevant) take you can have. I work in FAANG in the bay. The people around me are solid upper middle class but mortgages, day care, regular cars, medical bills, aging parents, college tuitions, etc etc etc mean very few of them can retire today and continue to live in the same place.
> A lot of people will work specific jobs not because they're trying to optimize for the most possible money.
Then you just work in a completely universe than I do because at every single job I've ever had, from lowly bus boy to FAANG ML engineer, not a single person has ever said to me "I'm doing this for the love of it". Quite the opposite in fact - many people I know would quit at the drop a hat if not for "golden handcuffs".
This is the most out of touch (and also irrelevant) take you can have. I work in FAANG in the bay. The people around me are solid upper middle class but mortgages, day care, regular cars, medical bills, aging parents, college tuitions, etc etc etc mean very few of them can retire today and continue to live in the same place.
> A lot of people will work specific jobs not because they're trying to optimize for the most possible money.
Then you just work in a completely universe than I do because at every single job I've ever had, from lowly bus boy to FAANG ML engineer, not a single person has ever said to me "I'm doing this for the love of it". Quite the opposite in fact - many people I know would quit at the drop a hat if not for "golden handcuffs".
I'm doing this for the love of it. I never meant to make it a career, originally; I just spent so much time at it when I was young that it became a career, whether I liked it or not. I've never sought to maximize my compensation; I just need to get paid enough that I can comfortably keep doing the work, because the work is what I want to do.
Yes, I have a family and a mortgage and bills, blah blah blah. All this is adaptable.
Lest you simply dismiss me, I will say that I have worked at two FAANG companies and another tech giant which was larger than any of them; but my ambition is measured in terms of technical impact, not money.
Yes, I have a family and a mortgage and bills, blah blah blah. All this is adaptable.
Lest you simply dismiss me, I will say that I have worked at two FAANG companies and another tech giant which was larger than any of them; but my ambition is measured in terms of technical impact, not money.
> not a single person has ever said to me "I'm doing this for the love of it".
I'm doing this for the love of it.
Maybe "love" is too strong a word, but I certainly "like" what I'm doing, and I "like" computers, and I have a computer side project that I "like" doing and don't get paid for. Heck, when I was a summer student at IBM I couldn't believe they were paying me for something that was so fun!
I'm doing this for the love of it.
Maybe "love" is too strong a word, but I certainly "like" what I'm doing, and I "like" computers, and I have a computer side project that I "like" doing and don't get paid for. Heck, when I was a summer student at IBM I couldn't believe they were paying me for something that was so fun!
congrats you're an extremely privileged and exceptional person. basketball players also generally love their jobs but they happen to be on average 6'7" so i'm not sure how either your experience theirs apply to me and the people i work with.
You’re getting awfully close to being rude. There’s no reason to try to go around imposing your perspective when it’s just you venting about feeling stuck. We all feel stuck from time to time, the solution is generally to wait it out until something that genuinely excites you comes along and you ask to hop on that opportunity. That’s possible in all work cultures, including egalitarian flat organizations.
> This is the most out of touch (and also irrelevant) take you can have. I work in FAANG in the bay. The people around me are solid upper middle class but mortgages, day care, regular cars, medical bills, aging parents, college tuitions, etc etc etc mean very few of them can retire today and continue to live in the same place.
I don't know the particulars of your budget, but up here in Seattle an FAANG E5/L5/etc makes over 3x median Seattle household income. And has medical insurance with like a <$10k OOP max. And can rent a house, and drive a $10k used car (like me) that gets replaced once every 10 years. Add public Uni tuition and $150k for 5 years of daycare (or have one working parent, see above r.e. 3x median income from one person), and say $30k/yr of elder parent support, and you can still run a 50%+ savings rate. That won't let you retire in 5 years, but it very likely will in 20 years.
I've met quite a few FAANG who've been at it long enough with a modest enough lifestyle that they don't need to work after 20 years. Some quit, some quit and moved to cheaper local, but some are still at it 'cus they like the problem solving.
I've also met several FAANG who bought a house worth 5x their income, are saving for $100k/yr of private Uni for 2-3 kids, drive $100k cars, etc, and save <10% of their income.
It's all tradeoffs.
And yea probably earning 3x median income makes someone out of touch to begin with. But what you do after that income is kinda up to you, and different choices yield different possibilities.
> Then you just work in a completely universe than I do because at every single job I've ever had, from lowly bus boy to FAANG ML engineer, not a single person has ever said to me "I'm doing this for the love of it". Quite the opposite in fact - many people I know would quit at the drop a hat if not for "golden handcuffs".
Well you can count me as one. I've met several others, and was on a team where most were like that for awhile.
I don't know the particulars of your budget, but up here in Seattle an FAANG E5/L5/etc makes over 3x median Seattle household income. And has medical insurance with like a <$10k OOP max. And can rent a house, and drive a $10k used car (like me) that gets replaced once every 10 years. Add public Uni tuition and $150k for 5 years of daycare (or have one working parent, see above r.e. 3x median income from one person), and say $30k/yr of elder parent support, and you can still run a 50%+ savings rate. That won't let you retire in 5 years, but it very likely will in 20 years.
I've met quite a few FAANG who've been at it long enough with a modest enough lifestyle that they don't need to work after 20 years. Some quit, some quit and moved to cheaper local, but some are still at it 'cus they like the problem solving.
I've also met several FAANG who bought a house worth 5x their income, are saving for $100k/yr of private Uni for 2-3 kids, drive $100k cars, etc, and save <10% of their income.
It's all tradeoffs.
And yea probably earning 3x median income makes someone out of touch to begin with. But what you do after that income is kinda up to you, and different choices yield different possibilities.
> Then you just work in a completely universe than I do because at every single job I've ever had, from lowly bus boy to FAANG ML engineer, not a single person has ever said to me "I'm doing this for the love of it". Quite the opposite in fact - many people I know would quit at the drop a hat if not for "golden handcuffs".
Well you can count me as one. I've met several others, and was on a team where most were like that for awhile.
I hope you’re not feeling superior to others because you’re able to have a “low expense lifestyle.” That tends to go right out the window if you have a spouse who doesn’t work in tech, and especially with children. Though I could just be a little biased because for a special needs child, basically take your expected ‘child expenses’ and square that number.
Note: all of the above was my own choice, so I can’t complain. I only just want to point out that you can really only keep a true low-expense lifestyle as a single person, or as a childless couple if both of you share that frugality passion.
Note: all of the above was my own choice, so I can’t complain. I only just want to point out that you can really only keep a true low-expense lifestyle as a single person, or as a childless couple if both of you share that frugality passion.
You're coming at the employer relationship from a fundamentally different place than the parent comment you're responding to.
I'm assuming their age because of when Pivotal Labs was a thing, but there was a period from about the late 90s to the early 2010s where many people in the valley believed in an ideal of ascetic tech monks where we did this for the love of the work and not purely for status or money. It's not like those elements were ever wholly absent, but nominally egalitarian hierarchies weren't the weirdest things in hindsight.
I'm assuming their age because of when Pivotal Labs was a thing, but there was a period from about the late 90s to the early 2010s where many people in the valley believed in an ideal of ascetic tech monks where we did this for the love of the work and not purely for status or money. It's not like those elements were ever wholly absent, but nominally egalitarian hierarchies weren't the weirdest things in hindsight.
> ascetic tech monks where we did this for the love of the work and not purely for status or money
And this is not limited to 2010s! My father worked as a software engineer in Poland in the 1960s, and the communist party had a problem: every profession had at least one member of the communist party except the programming profession. But the Polish programmers weren't interested in joining, not even with the perks of a bigger apartment or cars. Finally they got one programmer to join the communist party, but he wasn't interested in programming, and only became a programmer so he could join the communist party & get the perks.
And this is not limited to 2010s! My father worked as a software engineer in Poland in the 1960s, and the communist party had a problem: every profession had at least one member of the communist party except the programming profession. But the Polish programmers weren't interested in joining, not even with the perks of a bigger apartment or cars. Finally they got one programmer to join the communist party, but he wasn't interested in programming, and only became a programmer so he could join the communist party & get the perks.
> Note I could've said "when I discovered XYZ mathematical principle" but I didn't because they're both equally as arbitrary
Wow. I cannot relate to someone who only (mostly) view's their own accomplishments as bargaining chips for money/prestige. Even accomplishments that could have widespread benefit to others.
But I accept productive people can operate in different ways.
Wow. I cannot relate to someone who only (mostly) view's their own accomplishments as bargaining chips for money/prestige. Even accomplishments that could have widespread benefit to others.
But I accept productive people can operate in different ways.
> Even accomplishments that could have widespread benefit to others.
Which ones would those be? The ones where you optimized some process so your company could make 10MM more annually? I'm not a doctor/teacher/public defender. I write code that my company sells. I'm not benefitting anyone except myself and my company.
Which ones would those be? The ones where you optimized some process so your company could make 10MM more annually? I'm not a doctor/teacher/public defender. I write code that my company sells. I'm not benefitting anyone except myself and my company.
> discovered XYZ mathematical principle
As I noted, I wasn't critiquing you.
> I'm not benefitting anyone except myself and my company.
I don't know what you do, and all good work should be rewarded, but in most work third parties, such as customers or others benefit from work well done.
But I strongly share your opinion that good work should be matched with proportional compensation.
I had a similar problem. I was compensated well for what I could achieve, as a partner to a company, but after many good years, asymptotically prevented from achieving anything. The irony of being bought out of a contract for a price that reflected how much I could no longer achieve in those circumstances wasn't lost on me.
As I noted, I wasn't critiquing you.
> I'm not benefitting anyone except myself and my company.
I don't know what you do, and all good work should be rewarded, but in most work third parties, such as customers or others benefit from work well done.
But I strongly share your opinion that good work should be matched with proportional compensation.
I had a similar problem. I was compensated well for what I could achieve, as a partner to a company, but after many good years, asymptotically prevented from achieving anything. The irony of being bought out of a contract for a price that reflected how much I could no longer achieve in those circumstances wasn't lost on me.
This kind of self meta-analysis can be amusing to think about sometimes, but I think more often than not it's actually harmful to your own sense of progress or worth. In my opinion the two sides of this coin that are hard to reconcile are: "You shouldn't limit your own ability" and "It's important to be realistic". Comparing yourself to those around you is human nature, but here you're asking us to compare ourselves to what we imagine is the peak of ourselves in order to stay realistic. I guarantee you that the people around you who are actually making forward progress haven't given a single thought to whether or not they've "peaked".
I think an important skill is to comfortably see things in completely different ways, and leverage each view for how it helps.
Both views are simplified models, there is no conflict. Non-parallel lines are not a contradiction. For best navigation, triangulate. In a high N-dimensional nonlinear situation, accumulate lines/models/viewpoints.
Both views are simplified models, there is no conflict. Non-parallel lines are not a contradiction. For best navigation, triangulate. In a high N-dimensional nonlinear situation, accumulate lines/models/viewpoints.
Don't confuse arbitrary career ranking (which varies org to org) with earning potential. I have a relatively low effort remote job with fantastic compensation in a very large company. The responsibility is low, the opportunities to move about are many and often appear. I get job offers all the time and think: Yeah, it's more money, but will it be better conditions? This is the longest I've ever worked at a company (over half decade) and I am always waiting until just after getting my cost of living increase and bonus, before reconsidering.
That’s a pretty solid endorsement. Where do you work?
I can say confidently, not JPMC.
The thing I'm most curious about from this article is how/why the author was demoted from E9 to E7. A demotion in itself is pretty unusual, but being bumped down 2 levels seems super weird.
E: ok watched an interview the author gave and the answer was very boring. He requested a demotion because he moved from management back to IC.
E: ok watched an interview the author gave and the answer was very boring. He requested a demotion because he moved from management back to IC.
Asymptote though
The article author got it right, it's just the HN submitter who got it wrong.
Original title: "Waxing Asymptotic in Career Velocity"
Original title: "Waxing Asymptotic in Career Velocity"
Do more than 20% of engineers really believe they'll be E6 at a FAANG by the time they're 37? I think most folks are more grounded than that.
I think it's relatively straightforward to get to E5 even if just by being hired as one. A good number, I want to say a majority but don't have the data, of externally hired E5 at FAANG were E4 in their previous role.
Getting E5 to E6 seems to be the great filter. But if you know what it takes to go from E5 to E6, I think going from E6 to E9 is smooth sailing (provided you find wind in your sails).
But by then the marginal utility of a promotion starts dropping sharply. If you're already earning upwards of $450k as an E5, $550k or even $800k isn't that attractive.
Getting E5 to E6 seems to be the great filter. But if you know what it takes to go from E5 to E6, I think going from E6 to E9 is smooth sailing (provided you find wind in your sails).
But by then the marginal utility of a promotion starts dropping sharply. If you're already earning upwards of $450k as an E5, $550k or even $800k isn't that attractive.
> But by then the marginal utility of a promotion starts dropping sharply. If you're already earning upwards of $450k as an E5, $550k or even $800k isn't that attractive.
Going from $450K/yr to $800K/yr probably triples or quadruples the amount you can save per year without feeling like you’re constantly scrimping.
That drives down the time to F-you money, which is appealing and gives substantial psychological safety/power.
Going from $450K/yr to $800K/yr probably triples or quadruples the amount you can save per year without feeling like you’re constantly scrimping.
That drives down the time to F-you money, which is appealing and gives substantial psychological safety/power.
I’d agree with you too. I’m working to get to retirement. Savings rate is huge. Assuming I can get to that point, after I have no reason to need more money from employment I’ll be working on one-person startups that I don’t ever need to make money to scratch all my hacker itches rather than working to make some VC guys richer.
I consider myself lucky that I got to witness this blog post peter out in real life with a parental figure of mine, and thus internalize what sort of career track I’d like to have/work toward.
For me? I’d like to be a CIO someday - and believe I can get there, albeit for a smaller firm where outcomes are more important than politics, which rules out basically all of the Fortune 500. I’m fine if I don’t reach that point, though, as everything outside of work is ultimately more important - relationships, hobbies, enjoying this fleeting existence. Work is a means to an end, and so my skills are means to the end of a better career. I don’t think in terms of salary bands or titles, I look at my career in terms of skills and opportunities.
The traditional career is dead, is my (meandering) point. This article gives some sorely needed wake-up calls that we need to think bigger and more holistically than mere promotion cycles if we want to find our personal success.
For me? I’d like to be a CIO someday - and believe I can get there, albeit for a smaller firm where outcomes are more important than politics, which rules out basically all of the Fortune 500. I’m fine if I don’t reach that point, though, as everything outside of work is ultimately more important - relationships, hobbies, enjoying this fleeting existence. Work is a means to an end, and so my skills are means to the end of a better career. I don’t think in terms of salary bands or titles, I look at my career in terms of skills and opportunities.
The traditional career is dead, is my (meandering) point. This article gives some sorely needed wake-up calls that we need to think bigger and more holistically than mere promotion cycles if we want to find our personal success.
I think this is the first time I disagree with everything said. A properly motivated man can be whatever they want. Astronaut is absolutely within reach, along with anything else, with the exception of POTUS if you weren't born on US soil. Do not conflate your lack of 110% motivation to a cause/goal/solution as lies.
I am 5 foot four and was born with a limp, do you think if I tried really hard I could have been a pro basketball player?
The entire idea that anyone can do anything they put their mind to is a lie. There are all sorts of path dependencies that limit what people can do.
The entire idea that anyone can do anything they put their mind to is a lie. There are all sorts of path dependencies that limit what people can do.
Yes. There are literally thousands of sports doctors and coaches willing to work with you. Nothing is stopping you but your high horse. Work with what you have and just do it.
So you are saying at 51 i still have a chance?
I hope you are being sarcastic (even though that is unlikely).
Nope.
I wonder whether there are people who believe like you do in every country or whether it is specific to the US.
This is the kind of thinking that keeps poor America - especially rural America voting for policies that help the rich. They think they some day they may be able to take advantage of policies that help people making 10x what they make - ie they are only “temporarily poor”
I think you are confusing physical possibility with statistical probability.
And even physically, some things are just what they are. You can't escape death; you can't escape from a black hole, etc. You may claim these things may be possible in the future, but we are talking about what is currently possible.
But, the main way to understand the argument being made is: even if something is physically possible, if it is guaranteed that only say 10% people of people will achieve it, then you need to manage your expectations. It is exactly the same reason why gambling is a bad idea. In the aggregate, you are guaranteed to lose
A lot of grief arises because people ignore this basic concept. And, a lot of things in life are zero-sum: not all employees can be at the top level, otherwise that loses its meaning. Similarly, not all citizens can be president, not all people can be rich, etc.
And even physically, some things are just what they are. You can't escape death; you can't escape from a black hole, etc. You may claim these things may be possible in the future, but we are talking about what is currently possible.
But, the main way to understand the argument being made is: even if something is physically possible, if it is guaranteed that only say 10% people of people will achieve it, then you need to manage your expectations. It is exactly the same reason why gambling is a bad idea. In the aggregate, you are guaranteed to lose
A lot of grief arises because people ignore this basic concept. And, a lot of things in life are zero-sum: not all employees can be at the top level, otherwise that loses its meaning. Similarly, not all citizens can be president, not all people can be rich, etc.
I know that you know this isn’t true. You are telling me the only thing keeping a guy in a wheelchair out of the NBA is motivation? As for astronauts, NASA has a height limit of 193cm to be on a flight crew, so no amount of motivation is going to let a 6’6” guy be an astronaut.
These are the easy and obvious counters to your assertion that motivation is all it takes to be anything, but it is even true at most things. We like to believe that hard work is all that is needed to achieve anything you want, but any rigorous thinking and life experience will show this isn’t true. People have different skills and abilities, and some people simply don’t have the skills for certain things no matter how much they work at it.
Lastly, some of these things are simply numbers games. Every profession only has a limited number of opportunities, and some of these most highly desired ones are extremely limited. If there are two people who want to be the head coach of the Los Angeles Lakers, no amount of motivation is going to prevent at least one of them from failing to get the job. Even if both candidates had infinite motivation and infinite skill and infinite experience, only one of them can have the job.
These are the easy and obvious counters to your assertion that motivation is all it takes to be anything, but it is even true at most things. We like to believe that hard work is all that is needed to achieve anything you want, but any rigorous thinking and life experience will show this isn’t true. People have different skills and abilities, and some people simply don’t have the skills for certain things no matter how much they work at it.
Lastly, some of these things are simply numbers games. Every profession only has a limited number of opportunities, and some of these most highly desired ones are extremely limited. If there are two people who want to be the head coach of the Los Angeles Lakers, no amount of motivation is going to prevent at least one of them from failing to get the job. Even if both candidates had infinite motivation and infinite skill and infinite experience, only one of them can have the job.
the storyline by which "person under the flight limit becomes astronaut" is something like: they become famous and renowned and respected for some kind of science at which they are an expert; in the next twenty years spaceflight changes tremendously; the rules change; they end up on the shortlist for a flight colonizing Mars because they deserve it and rules are made up anyway.
So "success" looks like "changing the world". Doesn't it mean it can't be done! Just that it's gonna be hard.
not that this disproves your point per se, but, like... saying something can't happen because of rules is silly. Rules change all the time. The NBA example is better. But can a wheelchair-bound person end up professionally-good at basketball? Sure, maybe, in a future where medicine accomplishes a lot and they end up with bionic legs or whatever, plus they're incredibly driven to test those legs on basketball. Why not? The future can be anything.
So "success" looks like "changing the world". Doesn't it mean it can't be done! Just that it's gonna be hard.
not that this disproves your point per se, but, like... saying something can't happen because of rules is silly. Rules change all the time. The NBA example is better. But can a wheelchair-bound person end up professionally-good at basketball? Sure, maybe, in a future where medicine accomplishes a lot and they end up with bionic legs or whatever, plus they're incredibly driven to test those legs on basketball. Why not? The future can be anything.
> Why not? The future can be anything.
I don’t think the ability to come up with an implausible scenario where a person could become the thing that seems impossible is the same thing as saying “if you have enough motivation, you can become anything you want”. Both scenarios you described require a lot of things to happen that you are not in control of; space flight changing significantly and colonizing mars aren’t something you can work at.
Also, the height limit isn’t just a made up rule, it is so you can fit in the spaceship.
For the wheelchair basketball player, they can’t just work hard and suddenly the NBA lets people on with bionic legs. That would require a major rule shift, which again is not something you can change through hard work and motivation.
Look, I get why we want to persist the myth that you can accomplish anything though hard work. You CAN accomplish a lot, and probably more than you think, through dedication and hard work, but you definitely can’t if you don’t believe you can. So, we tell ourselves (and others) that you can be anything if you work hard so as to encourage people to try for things they might not try for because they don’t realize they can accomplish the thing if they work hard. It makes some sense to try to delude yourself into thinking you can do anything in order to prevent the situation where you actually could have accomplished the thing you wanted to do, but you didn’t try because you didn’t think you could.
So I get it, but really, if you think it through… there are things out of your control that will factor into whether you can accomplish your goal or not, and you have to be prepared for that, too.
I don’t think the ability to come up with an implausible scenario where a person could become the thing that seems impossible is the same thing as saying “if you have enough motivation, you can become anything you want”. Both scenarios you described require a lot of things to happen that you are not in control of; space flight changing significantly and colonizing mars aren’t something you can work at.
Also, the height limit isn’t just a made up rule, it is so you can fit in the spaceship.
For the wheelchair basketball player, they can’t just work hard and suddenly the NBA lets people on with bionic legs. That would require a major rule shift, which again is not something you can change through hard work and motivation.
Look, I get why we want to persist the myth that you can accomplish anything though hard work. You CAN accomplish a lot, and probably more than you think, through dedication and hard work, but you definitely can’t if you don’t believe you can. So, we tell ourselves (and others) that you can be anything if you work hard so as to encourage people to try for things they might not try for because they don’t realize they can accomplish the thing if they work hard. It makes some sense to try to delude yourself into thinking you can do anything in order to prevent the situation where you actually could have accomplished the thing you wanted to do, but you didn’t try because you didn’t think you could.
So I get it, but really, if you think it through… there are things out of your control that will factor into whether you can accomplish your goal or not, and you have to be prepared for that, too.
We're kinda talking about different philosophies here. There's "can it be done in any timeline" and "can it be done practically". Of course it can't be done practically. But if that is a 100%-filter on the things you attempt, then things that aren't likely to ever happen will never be attempted. Things go a lot better when people have unrealistic expectations and then end up in places they didn't expect (probably not the place they aimed for...). That's a moral worth nurturing, even if it is not any sort of practical approach that you would stake anything on.
Basically: it is false that you can be anything in particular if you work hard enough. But it is true that the best way to act is as if that were true to some degree, because the outcomes are better for everybody.
Basically: it is false that you can be anything in particular if you work hard enough. But it is true that the best way to act is as if that were true to some degree, because the outcomes are better for everybody.
It sounds like we are actually in agreement, then. You can absolutely achieve more things than seem possible, but you can’t achieve everything. I don’t think it is a bad idea to try things that seem unlikely to succeed, or to believe you can achieve something that is rationally very unlikely. You are right, having some irrational belief in yourself will often lead to more positive outcomes.
I just think you shouldn’t conclude that you just didn’t work hard enough if you don’t achieve every dream. As Captain Picard put it, “It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life."
I just think you shouldn’t conclude that you just didn’t work hard enough if you don’t achieve every dream. As Captain Picard put it, “It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life."
NWBA is a legit basketball league with pro athletes. NASA may limit your astronaut dreams due to height but SpaceX won't.
You state easy and obvious concerns, yet they all are self limiting..
Sure, if you modify your goal to a more realistic version of the goal, you can achieve it. That is different than saying you can achieve any specific goal you want if you work hard enough.
I mean that's just obviously, objectively, not true. If you're born with 12-inch legs you are _not_ going to be an elite marathon runner. Heck, even if you're born with average genetics, you're not going to be an elite runner.
What would make us think the same thing isn't true of mental activities? Obviously there's a lot more noise in the signal, and it's a lot more subjective, but there's pretty much 0% chance that if anyone just "tries hard enough" they can become a genius.
What would make us think the same thing isn't true of mental activities? Obviously there's a lot more noise in the signal, and it's a lot more subjective, but there's pretty much 0% chance that if anyone just "tries hard enough" they can become a genius.
>I mean that's just obviously, objectively, not true. If you're born with 12-inch legs you are _not_ going to be an elite marathon runner
My empiric objection is simply to watch this video. Everything here is objectively true:
https://youtu.be/cEItmb_a20M
My empiric objection is simply to watch this video. Everything here is objectively true:
https://youtu.be/cEItmb_a20M
That's super duper cool, but, it doesn't refute my statement. If what you're saying is "you can do anything you want at a level that will challenge you". Yeah, sure, but not at a level comparable to the best of the best.
I think about this plateauing question quite a bit. I'm 44 and around the E6 level. I think it is very challenging for me to progress much further up the ladder. I'm not confident I have the skillset required and trying to develop those (leadership and strategic) skills feels very hard to me. But I don't find that at all disappointing since I'm fairly confident I can continue to progress sideways. Maybe it's naive or arrogant but I think I could probably get close to a similar level again in a different field and eventually that'll be what I try to do.
The same is happening to me. I live in Europe and I'm a staff engineer with almost 40 y/o but I have to be honest and I think I'm not going to be able to grow on the corporate track. Whatever comes next will come from other sources, maybe consulting, maybe teaching, but I don't see an option moving forward, and I'm kind of fine with it.
> The point is this: you will be very dissatisfied with your career if you expect a promotion every 2 years. Very simple math would say you’re setting yourself up for decades of disappointment.
Recommended Reading: [0]
[0] https://geohot.github.io/blog/jekyll/update/2025/10/15/pathe...
Recommended Reading: [0]
[0] https://geohot.github.io/blog/jekyll/update/2025/10/15/pathe...
I have often felt a little out of place when I hear how focused on career growth some people are. I was excited to advance the first few years of my career, but it didn’t take long for me to realize I just didn’t have the desire or need to keep trying to climb the career ladder. Once I started making good money working on problems I enjoyed with the level of respect and autonomy I desired, I stopped even thinking about trying to “advance my career”. I would rather do a good job at my current position, and not try to fight for a higher level job I might not even like. What’s the point?
My career goal was always to keep programming, because it was what I enjoyed doing the most. I resisted every single move which would result in doing things other than programming.
It wasn’t a good approach for money making, but at least the primary goal was achieved.
No idea which path would’ve been a better life with all things considered.
It wasn’t a good approach for money making, but at least the primary goal was achieved.
No idea which path would’ve been a better life with all things considered.
It’s odd to me that someone who reached E9 at Meta seems so unaware of the capriciousness and political aspect of promotions at high levels. These are coveted and extremely rare roles that many talented and ambitious people are earnestly working towards and most will never achieve just by the numbers. I see nothing wrong with ambition but to measure your career by level is a reductive perspective that can undermine the specific accomplishments and relationships you have built.
This obsession with levels is something I see with many junior engineers who have gone through school chasing shibboleths of success. Stanford, MIT, always chasing the well-defined carrot. But often failing to understand there’s a pretty low ceiling to success on the well trod path. Real value comes from solving novel and ambiguous problems without anyone telling you how to do it. You have to realize those levels are meant to capture something about how the most effective technical leaders operate, it’s not a roadmap or a checklist for you to cargo cult. The things that matter are the quality of the work you do and the perception thereof by those in power. “Levels” are just secondary HR structure to manage the masses of employees in large corporations, and if you think too much about them you’re taking your eyes off the ball.
This obsession with levels is something I see with many junior engineers who have gone through school chasing shibboleths of success. Stanford, MIT, always chasing the well-defined carrot. But often failing to understand there’s a pretty low ceiling to success on the well trod path. Real value comes from solving novel and ambiguous problems without anyone telling you how to do it. You have to realize those levels are meant to capture something about how the most effective technical leaders operate, it’s not a roadmap or a checklist for you to cargo cult. The things that matter are the quality of the work you do and the perception thereof by those in power. “Levels” are just secondary HR structure to manage the masses of employees in large corporations, and if you think too much about them you’re taking your eyes off the ball.
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I remember at Bell Labs they had one title: MTS (Member of Technical Staff). You were an engineer, and that was that. (disclaimer: there were a handful of DMTSes (Distinguished Member of Technical Staff)).
No one said, "I'm an E7" or "I'm a Staff Engineer II". Those statements strike me as distasteful. And begs the question if we're being suckered by Human Resource's gamification of work.
I worked at a company, Pivotal Labs, where everyone's title was "Pivot". It made for an egalitarian workplace. That changed after the acquisition, and we got titles. My proudest moment? Not when I was promoted from Senior Engineer to Staff Engineer, but rather the after-hours work I did with Dimtriy to expand our offering to include IPv6.
At my current startup, there are no titles, and I'm grateful for that.