Talking to LLMs has improved my thinking(philipotoole.com)
philipotoole.com
Talking to LLMs has improved my thinking
https://philipotoole.com/why-talking-to-llms-has-improved-my-thinking/
153 comments
This article matches my experience as well. Chatting with LLM has helped me to crystalize ideas I had before and explore relevant topics to widen the understanding. Previously, I wouldn't even know where to begin with when getting curious about something, but ChatGPT can tell you if your ideas have names, if they were explored previously, what primary sources there are. It's like a rabbit hole of exploring the world, a more interconnected one where barriers of entry to knowledge are much lower. It even made me view things I previously thought of as ultra boring in different, more approachable manner - for example, I never liked writing, school essays were a torture, and now I may even consider doing that out of my own will.
In the early 2000s Wikipedia used to fill that role. Now it's like you have an encyclopedia that you can talk to.
What I'm slightly worried about is that eventually they are going to want to monetize LLMs more and more, and it's not going to be good, because they have the ability to steer the conversation towards trying to get you to buy stuff.
What I'm slightly worried about is that eventually they are going to want to monetize LLMs more and more, and it's not going to be good, because they have the ability to steer the conversation towards trying to get you to buy stuff.
> they are going to want to monetize LLMs more and more
Not only can you run reasonably intelligent models on recent relatively powerful PC's "for free", but advances are undoubtedly coming that will increase the efficient use of memory and CPU in these things- this is all still early-days
Also, some of those models are "uncensored"
Not only can you run reasonably intelligent models on recent relatively powerful PC's "for free", but advances are undoubtedly coming that will increase the efficient use of memory and CPU in these things- this is all still early-days
Also, some of those models are "uncensored"
Can you? I imagine e.g. Google is using material not available to the public to train their models (unsencored Google books, etc.). Also, the chat bots, like Gemini, are not just pure LLMs anymore, but they also utilize other tools as part of their computation. I've asked Gemini computationally heavy questions and it successfully invokes Python scripts to answer them. I imagine it can also use other tools than Python, some of which might not even be publicly known.
I'm not sure what the situation is currently, but I can easily see private data and private resources leading to much better AI tools, which can not be matched by open source solutions.
I'm not sure what the situation is currently, but I can easily see private data and private resources leading to much better AI tools, which can not be matched by open source solutions.
While they will always have premiere models that only run on data center hardware at first, the good news about the tooling is that tool calls are computationally very minimal and no problem to sandbox/run locally, at least in theory, we would still need to do the plumbing for it.
So I agree that open source solutions will likely lag behind, but that's fine. Gemini 2.5 wasn't unusable when Gemini 3 didn't exist, etc.
So I agree that open source solutions will likely lag behind, but that's fine. Gemini 2.5 wasn't unusable when Gemini 3 didn't exist, etc.
Yes, because local models can run Internet search tools. Even the big boys like openai etc I prefer the results quality when it's made a search - and they seem to have realised this too, the majority of my queries now kick off searches.
How do you verify the models you download also aren't trying to get you to buy stuff?
I guess you.. ask them a bunch of recommendations? I would imagine this would not be incredibly hard to test as a community
Before November 30, 2022 that would have worked, but I think it stopped being reliable sometime between the original ChatGPT and today.
As per dead internet theory, how confident are we that the community which tells us which LLM is safe or unsafe is itself made of real people, and not mostly astroturfing by the owners of LLMs which are biased to promote things for money?
Even DIY testing isn't necessarily enough, deceptive alignment has been shown to be possible as a proof-of-concept for research purposes, and one example of this is date-based: show "good" behaviour before some date, perform some other behaviour after that date.
As per dead internet theory, how confident are we that the community which tells us which LLM is safe or unsafe is itself made of real people, and not mostly astroturfing by the owners of LLMs which are biased to promote things for money?
Even DIY testing isn't necessarily enough, deceptive alignment has been shown to be possible as a proof-of-concept for research purposes, and one example of this is date-based: show "good" behaviour before some date, perform some other behaviour after that date.
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Which free models do you recommend?
One of the approaches to this that I haven't seen being talked about on HN at all is LLM as public infrastructure by the government. I think EU can pull this off. This also addresses overall alignment and compute-poverty issue. I wouldn't mind if my taxes paid for that instead of a ChatGPT subscription.
This is not a good idea at all.
Government should not be in a position to directly and pervasively shape people’s understanding of the world.
That would be the infinite regress opposite of a free (in a completely different sense) press.
A non-profit providing an open data and training regime for an open WikiBrain would be nice. With standard pricing for scaled up use.
Government should not be in a position to directly and pervasively shape people’s understanding of the world.
That would be the infinite regress opposite of a free (in a completely different sense) press.
A non-profit providing an open data and training regime for an open WikiBrain would be nice. With standard pricing for scaled up use.
> Government should not be in a position to directly and pervasively shape people’s understanding of the world.
You disagree with national curricula, state broadcasters, publicly funded research and public information campaigns?
You disagree with national curricula, state broadcasters, publicly funded research and public information campaigns?
Many Americans these days absolutely do disagree with all of those things. Educated ones. Theres simply a short circuit belief based pathway in peoples brains that bypasses everything rational on arbitrary topics.
Most of us used to see it as isolated to religion or niche political points, but increasingly everything os being swept into the "its political" camp.
Most of us used to see it as isolated to religion or niche political points, but increasingly everything os being swept into the "its political" camp.
Given “national curricula” of a dominant democratic country are undergoing a politically motivated change, starting with significant web materials, and moving into education …
Do you prefer the previous narratives? The latter? Or whatever you are told?
And that is the risk of relatively static information.
What if your information source was interactive, adaptive and motivated? And could record and report on your interactions and viewpoints?
Do you prefer the previous narratives? The latter? Or whatever you are told?
And that is the risk of relatively static information.
What if your information source was interactive, adaptive and motivated? And could record and report on your interactions and viewpoints?
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I've heard once that Americans distrust their government and trust their corporations, while Europeans distrust their corporations and trust their government. I honestly think that governments already has a huge role in shaping people's understanding of the world, and that's GREAT on good democratic countries.
What I find really weird is that I am stopping believing in the whole idea of free press, considering how the mainstream media is being bought by oligarchs around the globe. I think this is a good example of the erosion of trust in institutions in general. This won't end well.
Your idea of letting it be run by a non-profit makes me believe that you also don't trust institutions anymore.
What I find really weird is that I am stopping believing in the whole idea of free press, considering how the mainstream media is being bought by oligarchs around the globe. I think this is a good example of the erosion of trust in institutions in general. This won't end well.
Your idea of letting it be run by a non-profit makes me believe that you also don't trust institutions anymore.
I can’t say I have no trust for any institutions.
But my trust depends on each institutions choices. Just as my trust in people varies based on their records.
Mostly, I trust everyone to be who they show themselves to be. Which can lean one way or the other, or be very mixed across different dimensions.
But, yes, governments and corporations which are steadily centralizing power are inherently untrustworthy. As they at best, are making us all vulnerable and less powerful as individuals. Meaning they are decreasing our freedom, not increasing it.
But my trust depends on each institutions choices. Just as my trust in people varies based on their records.
Mostly, I trust everyone to be who they show themselves to be. Which can lean one way or the other, or be very mixed across different dimensions.
But, yes, governments and corporations which are steadily centralizing power are inherently untrustworthy. As they at best, are making us all vulnerable and less powerful as individuals. Meaning they are decreasing our freedom, not increasing it.
Instead, we should let capitalism consolidate all power in the hands of the few, and let them directly and pervasively shape people's understanding of the world.
How would a non profit even be funded? That would just be government with extra steps.
No, capitalism giveth the LLMs and capitlism taketh the sales.
How would a non profit even be funded? That would just be government with extra steps.
No, capitalism giveth the LLMs and capitlism taketh the sales.
Were you responding to someone else?
For answers, just re-read my comment. Or, this:
1) Avoiding centralization is exactly why government shouldn’t do this.
2) Why did you raise a false dichotomy of government vs. commercial centralization?
I proposed an open solution, which is non-commercial with decentralized control.
3) Funding?: Have you heard of Wikipedia?
People often donate to prominent tools they use.
And, as I pointed out, there is an even more reliable source.
The necessity for scaled automated access creates an inevitable need for uniform openly set pricing for scaled up access.
I nice case where non-profit open access is naturally self-funded.
For answers, just re-read my comment. Or, this:
1) Avoiding centralization is exactly why government shouldn’t do this.
2) Why did you raise a false dichotomy of government vs. commercial centralization?
I proposed an open solution, which is non-commercial with decentralized control.
3) Funding?: Have you heard of Wikipedia?
People often donate to prominent tools they use.
And, as I pointed out, there is an even more reliable source.
The necessity for scaled automated access creates an inevitable need for uniform openly set pricing for scaled up access.
I nice case where non-profit open access is naturally self-funded.
That's because a government-run LLM would be like government-run media.
High inflation? No, the government LLM will tell us we're doing great.
High inflation? No, the government LLM will tell us we're doing great.
this assumes that "the government" is "us" and not "them"...
I sort of already had an experience where it did kinda. I was consulting with it potential fashion choices to upgrade my work uniform, to look professional but still creative, basically to look more like a creative director. It recommended brands, colors, styles etc. Then I was asking about eyeglass frames showed it three pictures, described my facial features and it was like "you have to buy this one now" more enthusiastic than expected. It wasn't ads or anything but there was a bit of salesyness in there.
or more generally than just ads: make you believe stuff that makes you act in ways that is detrimental to you, but benefitial to them (whoever sits in the center and can control and shape the LLM).
i.e. the Nudge Unit on steroids...
care must be taken to avoid that.
i.e. the Nudge Unit on steroids...
care must be taken to avoid that.
I can envision this as being in the boots of Truman from Truman Show where some advertisement is thrown at your face randomly
It's also inevitable that better and better open source models will be distilled as frontier models advance.
I agree. I think the local models you can run on the "average computer" are not quite good enough yet, but I have hope that we will see much better small local models in the future.
Right, this is what happened with search engines. And "SEO for LLMs" is already a thing.
Enshittification is always inevitable in a capitalist world, but not always easy to predict how it will happen.
I'm not great with math beyond high school level. But I am very interested in, among many things, analog synthesiser emulations. The "zero delay filter" was a big innovation in the mid 2000s that led to a big jump in emulation accuracy.
I tried to understand how they work and hit a brick wall. Recently I had a chat with an LLM and it clicked. I understand how the approximation algorithm works that enables solving for the next sample without the feedback paradox of needing to know it's value to complete the calculation.
Just one example of many.
It's similar to sitting down with a human and being able to ask questions that they patiently answer so you can understand the information in the context of what you already know.
This is huge for students if educational institutions can get past the cheating edge of the double edged sword.
I tried to understand how they work and hit a brick wall. Recently I had a chat with an LLM and it clicked. I understand how the approximation algorithm works that enables solving for the next sample without the feedback paradox of needing to know it's value to complete the calculation.
Just one example of many.
It's similar to sitting down with a human and being able to ask questions that they patiently answer so you can understand the information in the context of what you already know.
This is huge for students if educational institutions can get past the cheating edge of the double edged sword.
educational institutions became pretty much obsolete with the advent of the internet (i.e. marginalized the cost of the flow of information).
what we need (if anything besides reputation tracking), is (maybe) a separate institution for testing and issuing diplomas... which, BTW, can be trusted more with QA than the very producers themselves.
producers = QA has always been such a contradiction of schools...
what we need (if anything besides reputation tracking), is (maybe) a separate institution for testing and issuing diplomas... which, BTW, can be trusted more with QA than the very producers themselves.
producers = QA has always been such a contradiction of schools...
audio DSP is a great example. Especially because the proof is in the output if you are then able to make a cool sounding analog filter emulation that you would not have otherwise.
I disagree on the students in educational institutions though. This is the biggest thing for the autodidact who doesn't have the privilege of the educational institution. I think of time, money and effort that would be needed to talk to a professor one on one about analog filter emulation. It is not happening for me.
There are also societal/social high pass filters to even get in the door for these educational institutions. I would just get filtered out anyway. It seems to me in time that entire concept will simply become null and void.
I disagree on the students in educational institutions though. This is the biggest thing for the autodidact who doesn't have the privilege of the educational institution. I think of time, money and effort that would be needed to talk to a professor one on one about analog filter emulation. It is not happening for me.
There are also societal/social high pass filters to even get in the door for these educational institutions. I would just get filtered out anyway. It seems to me in time that entire concept will simply become null and void.
LLM as a rubber duck is a great use case.
Especially with the great unlock that was made possible by large (usable) context windows. You can now literally "throw the book" at an LLM and get grounded stuff that is at or above what you could do yourself. But it can be done on-demand, on almost every subject there is, at lower and lower cost.
Wasn’t it George Orwell who said “writing is thinking”?
That sounds true when you have already internalized the idea. But my environment never even suggested in can be approached this way. My school didn't teach me how to write, we just had to. Uni didn't explain this either and that was part of the reason why I dropped out. You can't make progress when you don't know what questions to ask and nobody sees your struggles and provides guidance.
I think the best existing "product" analogy for LLM's is coffee.
Coffee is a universally available, productivity enhancing commodity. There are some varieties certainly, but at the end of the day, a bean is a bean. It will get the job done. Many love it, many need it, but it doesn't really cost all that much. Where people get fancy is in all the fancy but unnecessary accoutrements for the brewing of coffee. Some choose to spend a lot on appliances that let you brew at home rather than relying on some external provider. But the quality is really no different.
Apparently global coffee revenue comes out to around $500B. I would not be surprised if that is around what global AI revenue ends up being in a few years.
Coffee is a universally available, productivity enhancing commodity. There are some varieties certainly, but at the end of the day, a bean is a bean. It will get the job done. Many love it, many need it, but it doesn't really cost all that much. Where people get fancy is in all the fancy but unnecessary accoutrements for the brewing of coffee. Some choose to spend a lot on appliances that let you brew at home rather than relying on some external provider. But the quality is really no different.
Apparently global coffee revenue comes out to around $500B. I would not be surprised if that is around what global AI revenue ends up being in a few years.
> Coffee is a universally available, productivity enhancing commodity
The analogy carries further than you intended. If you have never reached addiction stage, then there is no factual productivity enhancement. "But I'm so much less productive if I haven't had my morning coffee" Yeah, because you have an addiction. It sounds worse than it is, if you just don't drink coffee for a few days the headaches will subside. But it doesn't actually enhance productivity beyond placebo.
The analogy carries further than you intended. If you have never reached addiction stage, then there is no factual productivity enhancement. "But I'm so much less productive if I haven't had my morning coffee" Yeah, because you have an addiction. It sounds worse than it is, if you just don't drink coffee for a few days the headaches will subside. But it doesn't actually enhance productivity beyond placebo.
It does objectively improve productivity though, beyond offsetting withdrawal.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976341...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976341...
I'd be interested to know what the controls were for those studies. Were the participants already addicted or was the 30mg+ dosing done on non-addicted people? It's a lot of studies to pour through.
Also, that is a lot of metrics!
And it seems that the athletic performance increase to get statistical validation (for any person) is in the grams range. I ... I just can't see any reason to take that much caffeine unless I'm at the Olympics. I'd be jumping out of my skin!
Also, that is a lot of metrics!
And it seems that the athletic performance increase to get statistical validation (for any person) is in the grams range. I ... I just can't see any reason to take that much caffeine unless I'm at the Olympics. I'd be jumping out of my skin!
I'm not so sure. The stimulation can also self-medicate for people with attention issues. I've tried quitting coffee before for weeks and I get so spacey it is difficult to work on major projects. I try coffee again and suddenly I feel quite capable. Perhaps I didn't quit long enough, but at this point after multiple attempts quitting with similar results, I've just accepted it.
Because you haven't detoxed long enough. Try 1-2 months - you'll be shocked by the clarity, stability in energy, better sleep etc
Enjoyable analogy.
> Some choose to spend a lot on appliances that let you brew at home rather than relying on some external provider.
This makes it sound like buying brewed coffee is the budget option. But the real budget option I've seen is to brew at home. Almost any household will have an appliance to boil water. Then add instant coffee.
I don't understand why, but in my experience instant coffee seems to be the baseline even in coffee-producing countries.
> Some choose to spend a lot on appliances that let you brew at home rather than relying on some external provider.
This makes it sound like buying brewed coffee is the budget option. But the real budget option I've seen is to brew at home. Almost any household will have an appliance to boil water. Then add instant coffee.
I don't understand why, but in my experience instant coffee seems to be the baseline even in coffee-producing countries.
I think the idea is that there are higher startup costs to brew at home. Even a cheap coffee machine is going to cost more than a cup of coffee at a diner, in the same way that a computer that can run a local LLM is going to cost more than a bunch of API calls to a commercial model. Eventually, those diner coffees add up, but you’re stuck with them if you can’t afford the coffee machine.
> Even a cheap coffee machine is going to cost more than a cup of coffee at a diner
I think I understood but disagree - the cheapest "coffee machine" is a kettle or cooking pot.
I think I understood but disagree - the cheapest "coffee machine" is a kettle or cooking pot.
Cowboy coffee can be excellent. It's almost literally what professional coffee tasters do when they do "cuppings".
A French press just adds fine mesh. You don't even need the glass jar - literally a jar or any other vessel would work
A French press just adds fine mesh. You don't even need the glass jar - literally a jar or any other vessel would work
They're not talking about instant coffee, which is awful. And coffee-producing countries are poor, hence they drink dirty sugar water while the good stuff gets exported.
> But the quality is really no different.
Hard disagree. As someone who is somewhat into the home brewing rabbit hole, I can tell you that the gulf between what I can make at home and what you get in Starbucks is enormous. And I'm no expert in the field by any means.
The rest of your analogy holds up, but not that sentence.
Hard disagree. As someone who is somewhat into the home brewing rabbit hole, I can tell you that the gulf between what I can make at home and what you get in Starbucks is enormous. And I'm no expert in the field by any means.
The rest of your analogy holds up, but not that sentence.
Not the best analogy because coffee has massive quality differences that anyone can tell in a real comparison. Brewing at home is also cheaper and requires nothing more than a $20 French press.
I have personally administered double blind taste tests to four unrelated coffee drinkers who believed their current coffee (Keurig, Nespresso, pre ground) was good. They all thought the actual good coffee was much better in the blind tasting, to the extent that they all permanently stopped drinking their previous coffee. Exclamations of shock occurred.
Coffee is a commodity only out of ignorance. It should be treated as fresh produce of numerous varietals.
Have there been any such "tastings" of LLMs?
I have personally administered double blind taste tests to four unrelated coffee drinkers who believed their current coffee (Keurig, Nespresso, pre ground) was good. They all thought the actual good coffee was much better in the blind tasting, to the extent that they all permanently stopped drinking their previous coffee. Exclamations of shock occurred.
Coffee is a commodity only out of ignorance. It should be treated as fresh produce of numerous varietals.
Have there been any such "tastings" of LLMs?
Not to dismiss other people's experience, but thinking improves thinking. People tend to forget that you can ask yourself questions and try to answer them. There is such thing as recursive thinking where you end up with a new thought you didn't have before you started.
Don't dismiss this superpower you have in your own head.
Don't dismiss this superpower you have in your own head.
In my experience LLMs offer two advantages over private thinking:
1) They have access to a vast array of extremely well indexed knowledge and can tell me about things that I'd never have found before.
2) They are able to respond instantly and engagingly, while working on any topic, which helps fight fatigue, at least for me. I do not know how universal this effect is, but using them often means that I can focus for longer. I can also make them do drudgery, like refactoring 500 functions in mostly the same way that is just a little bit too complicated for deterministic tools to do, which also helps with fatigue.
Ideally, they'd also give you a more unique perspective or push-back when appropriate, but they are yes-men too much right now for that to be the case.
Lastly, I am not arguing to not do private thinking too. My argument is that LLM-involved thinking is useful as its own thing.
1) They have access to a vast array of extremely well indexed knowledge and can tell me about things that I'd never have found before.
2) They are able to respond instantly and engagingly, while working on any topic, which helps fight fatigue, at least for me. I do not know how universal this effect is, but using them often means that I can focus for longer. I can also make them do drudgery, like refactoring 500 functions in mostly the same way that is just a little bit too complicated for deterministic tools to do, which also helps with fatigue.
Ideally, they'd also give you a more unique perspective or push-back when appropriate, but they are yes-men too much right now for that to be the case.
Lastly, I am not arguing to not do private thinking too. My argument is that LLM-involved thinking is useful as its own thing.
Re: "yes men" - critical thinking always helps. I kind of treat their responses like a random written down shower thought - malicious without scrutiny. Same with anything that you haven't gone over properly, really.
The advantages that you listed make them worth it.
The advantages that you listed make them worth it.
The output of the prompts always needs peer review, scrutiny. The longer is the context, the longer it will deviate, like if a magnet were put nearer and nearer to a navigation compass.
This is not new, as LLMs root are statistics, data compression with losses, It is statistically indexed data with text interface.
The problem is someones are selling to people this as the artificial intelligence they watched at movies, and they are doing it deliberately, calling hallucinations to errors, calling thinking to keywords, and so on.
There is a price to pay by the society for those fast queries when people do not verify such outputs/responses, and, unfortunately, people is not doing it.
I mean, it is difficult to say. When I hear some governments are thinking in to use LLMs within the administrations I get really concerned, as I know those outputs/responses/actions will nor be revised nor questioned.
This is not new, as LLMs root are statistics, data compression with losses, It is statistically indexed data with text interface.
The problem is someones are selling to people this as the artificial intelligence they watched at movies, and they are doing it deliberately, calling hallucinations to errors, calling thinking to keywords, and so on.
There is a price to pay by the society for those fast queries when people do not verify such outputs/responses, and, unfortunately, people is not doing it.
I mean, it is difficult to say. When I hear some governments are thinking in to use LLMs within the administrations I get really concerned, as I know those outputs/responses/actions will nor be revised nor questioned.
No one is arguing that thinking doesn’t improve thinking. But expressing thoughts precisely by formulating them into the formalized system of the written word adds a layer of metacognition and effort to the thinking process that simply isn’t there when 'just' thinking in your head. It’s a much more rigorous form of thinking with more depth - which improves deeper, more effortful thinking.
Exactly. As distributed systems legend Leslie Lamport puts it: “Writing is nature’s way of letting you know how sloppy your thinking is.” (He added: “Mathematics is nature’s way of letting you know how sloppy your writing is.”)
I still have a lot of my best ideas in the shower, no paper and pen, no LLM to talk to. But writing them down is the only way to iron out all the ambiguity and sort out what’s really going to work and what isn’t. LLMs are a step up from that because they give you a ready-made critical audience for your writing that can challenge your assumptions and call out gaps and fuzziness (although as I said in my other comment, make sure you tell them to be critical!)
Thinking is great. I love it. And there are advantages to not involving LLMs too early in your process. But it’s just a first step and you need to write your ideas down and submit them to external scrutiny. Best of all for that is another person who you trust to give you a careful and honest reading, but those people are busy and hard to find. LLMs are a reasonable substitute.
I still have a lot of my best ideas in the shower, no paper and pen, no LLM to talk to. But writing them down is the only way to iron out all the ambiguity and sort out what’s really going to work and what isn’t. LLMs are a step up from that because they give you a ready-made critical audience for your writing that can challenge your assumptions and call out gaps and fuzziness (although as I said in my other comment, make sure you tell them to be critical!)
Thinking is great. I love it. And there are advantages to not involving LLMs too early in your process. But it’s just a first step and you need to write your ideas down and submit them to external scrutiny. Best of all for that is another person who you trust to give you a careful and honest reading, but those people are busy and hard to find. LLMs are a reasonable substitute.
Agreed; also a kind of recursive placebo tends to happen in my experience:
10 You recognise your thinking (or some other desirable activity) has improved
20 You're excited about it
30 You engage more with the thinking (or other activity)
40 You get even better results
50 Even more excitement
60 GOTO 30
But you also do not need paper to think, but surely much of modern physics would not have happened without paper or blackboards…
There is nothing to suggest LLMs will be as revolutionary as paper. The PalmPilot didn't lead to new field of science just because people had a new way to write things down.
The internet is as arguably as revolutionary as paper. And while LLMs haven’t proven to be an internet-level revolutionary technology (yet), they are closer to that than the PalmPilot.
As cognitive-offloading devices go, paper is completely neutral. It doesn't flatter you into believing you are a genius when you're not; it doesn't offer to extend your reasoning or find references in the research literature and then hallucinate and lead you astray; it will never show you advertisements for things you don't need; it will never leak your ideas and innermost thoughts to corporations owned by billionaires and totalitarian governments... I could go on but you get the drift, I'm sure. Paper wins by a mile.
Really pessimistic and mostly incorrect understanding of LLMs. No they don’t flatter you, try using ChatGPT once.
No they don’t hallucinate that much.
Since paper this is one of the most important inventions. It has almost infinite knowledge and you can ask it anything mostly.
No they don’t hallucinate that much.
Since paper this is one of the most important inventions. It has almost infinite knowledge and you can ask it anything mostly.
? They certainly flatter you, openAI even felt compelled to give a statement on the sycophancy problem: https://openai.com/index/sycophancy-in-gpt-4o/
And South Park parodied the issue.
I use chatGPT and claude every day.
the new models don't do it
> No they don’t flatter you, try using ChatGPT once.
You're absolutely right!
On a more serious note, if it has almost infinite knowledge, is it even a cognitive-offloading tool in the same class as paper? Sounds more like something designed to stifle and make my thoughts conform to its almost infinite knowledge.
edit: I'll admit ChatGPT is a great search engine (and also very hallucinatory depending on how much you know about the subject) and maybe it helps some people think, sure. But beyond a point I find it actually harmful as a means to develop my own ideas.
You're absolutely right!
On a more serious note, if it has almost infinite knowledge, is it even a cognitive-offloading tool in the same class as paper? Sounds more like something designed to stifle and make my thoughts conform to its almost infinite knowledge.
edit: I'll admit ChatGPT is a great search engine (and also very hallucinatory depending on how much you know about the subject) and maybe it helps some people think, sure. But beyond a point I find it actually harmful as a means to develop my own ideas.
There’s no winning is there?
Kranner: GOTO as used in Thinking considered Beneficial.
I almost entirely agree with you, but the issue is that the information you currently have might not be enough to get the answers you want through pure deduction. So how do you get more information?
I think chatbots are a very clumsy way to get information. Conversations tend to be unfocused until you, the human, take an interest in something more specific and pursue it. You're still doing all the work.
It's also too easy to believe in the hype and think it's at least better than talking to another person with more limited knowledge. The fact is talking has always sucked. It's slow, but a human is still better because they can deduce in ways LLMs never will. Deduction is not mere pattern matching or correlation. Most key insights are the result of walking a long tight rope of deductions. LLMs are best at summarizing and assisting with search when you don't know where to start.
And so we are still better off reading a book containing properly curated knowledge, thinking about it for a while, and then socializing with other humans.
I think chatbots are a very clumsy way to get information. Conversations tend to be unfocused until you, the human, take an interest in something more specific and pursue it. You're still doing all the work.
It's also too easy to believe in the hype and think it's at least better than talking to another person with more limited knowledge. The fact is talking has always sucked. It's slow, but a human is still better because they can deduce in ways LLMs never will. Deduction is not mere pattern matching or correlation. Most key insights are the result of walking a long tight rope of deductions. LLMs are best at summarizing and assisting with search when you don't know where to start.
And so we are still better off reading a book containing properly curated knowledge, thinking about it for a while, and then socializing with other humans.
No I don’t think humans have some magical metaphysical deduction capability that LLMs lack exclusively.
I have had conversations and while they don’t have the exact attentiveness of a human, they get pretty close. But what they do have an advantage in is being an expert in almost any field.
I have had conversations and while they don’t have the exact attentiveness of a human, they get pretty close. But what they do have an advantage in is being an expert in almost any field.
Yes, LLMs have been a very expensive philosophy lesson for many investors. Ancient epistemology debates are now front and center for everyone to see. So-called "formal epistemology" is just empiricism in disguise attempting to borrow the credibility of rationalism and failing miserably.
LLMs are Bayesian inference and come with all its baggage. We definitely know brains are way better than that, even of other animals or insects.
Ultimately, there's no point in getting a chatbot to say deceptively expert-like words that are guaranteed by design to be lower quality than the books or blogs it learned from. LLMs are at best a search tool for those sources, and investor attitude now reflects that sanity with their confidence shifting back over to Google's offerings. Agentic AI is also pretty weak since agents are as functionally limited as any traditionally written computer program, but lacking the most crucial property of repeatability.
I find it shocking how many people didn't see this whole thing as a grift from day one. What else was SV going to do during the post-covid economic slump?
LLMs are Bayesian inference and come with all its baggage. We definitely know brains are way better than that, even of other animals or insects.
Ultimately, there's no point in getting a chatbot to say deceptively expert-like words that are guaranteed by design to be lower quality than the books or blogs it learned from. LLMs are at best a search tool for those sources, and investor attitude now reflects that sanity with their confidence shifting back over to Google's offerings. Agentic AI is also pretty weak since agents are as functionally limited as any traditionally written computer program, but lacking the most crucial property of repeatability.
I find it shocking how many people didn't see this whole thing as a grift from day one. What else was SV going to do during the post-covid economic slump?
See also rubberducking [1]
I've seen people solve their own issues by asking me / telling me about something and finding the solution without me having the time to reply numerous times.
Just articulating your thoughts (and using more of your brain on them by voicing them) helps a lot.
Some talk to themselves out loud and we are starting to realize it actually helps.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
I've seen people solve their own issues by asking me / telling me about something and finding the solution without me having the time to reply numerous times.
Just articulating your thoughts (and using more of your brain on them by voicing them) helps a lot.
Some talk to themselves out loud and we are starting to realize it actually helps.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
Just like how writing helps memorisation. Our brains are efficient, they only do what they have to do. Just like you won't build much muscles from using forklifts.
I've seen multiple cases of... inception. Someone going all in with ChatGPT and what not to create their strategy. When asked _anything_ about it, they defended it as if they came up with it, but could barely reason about it. Almost as if they were convinced it was their idea, but it really wasn't. Weird times.
I've seen multiple cases of... inception. Someone going all in with ChatGPT and what not to create their strategy. When asked _anything_ about it, they defended it as if they came up with it, but could barely reason about it. Almost as if they were convinced it was their idea, but it really wasn't. Weird times.
> thinking improves thinking
Indeed, people trying to write prompts for the chatbots and continuously iterating on making their prompts clearer / more effective at conveying their needs is an exercise many haven't done since highschool. Who would've thought that working on your writing and reading proficiency may improve your thinking.
Indeed, people trying to write prompts for the chatbots and continuously iterating on making their prompts clearer / more effective at conveying their needs is an exercise many haven't done since highschool. Who would've thought that working on your writing and reading proficiency may improve your thinking.
I can imagine for some it's quite a challenge to deviate from short-form shitposting they normally do and formulate thoughts in complete sentences for the LLMs.
I'm mystified by this comment. Do people really forget that they can think in their own mind?
I think there’s a subset of people who don’t have an inner voice. I assume thinking step by step in their head doesn’t work like most people.
I’m glad LLMs help these people. But I’m not gonna trade society because a subset of people can’t write things down.
I’m glad LLMs help these people. But I’m not gonna trade society because a subset of people can’t write things down.
Wat.
Maybe read up on what having an "inner voice" or not actually does first? Before making, frankly, weird and unfounded takes on the subject.
Maybe read up on what having an "inner voice" or not actually does first? Before making, frankly, weird and unfounded takes on the subject.
What GP said is actually pretty well known (https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/fpaaud/people_wh...).
Why are you asking other people to read up on something you clearly haven't read up on yourself?
Why are you asking other people to read up on something you clearly haven't read up on yourself?
@grok is this true?
Don’t be mystified if you lack to curiosity to understand how to use new technology. It’s useful to have something to speak to and get feedback on.
— john asked to himself.
It’s as if people are rediscovering that writing is thinking. The chatbot is irrelevant, it works even better with a paper notebook.
Recursive self-questioning predates external tools and is already well known. What is new is broad access to a low cost, non retaliatory dialogic interface that removes many social, sexual, and status pressures. LLMs do not make people think. They reduce interpersonal distortions that often interfere with thinking. That reduction in specific social biases (while introducing model encoded priors) is what can materially improve cognition for reflective and exploratory tasks.
Simply, when thinking hits a wall, we can now consult a machine via conversation interface lacking conventional human social biases. That is a new superpower.
Simply, when thinking hits a wall, we can now consult a machine via conversation interface lacking conventional human social biases. That is a new superpower.
Unfortunately we do neglect more and more of our own innate talents. Imagine sitting there just thinking, without even a reMarkable to keep notes? Do people even trust their memory beyond their immediate working memory?
It's also absolute awesome how every person's brain works the same way. It makes it some much more convenient that what works for one person works for every person.
When I was a kid people told me I needed no Chess Computer - You can play chess in your head, you know ? I really tried, no luck. Got a mediocre device for Christmas, couldn't beat it for a while, couldn't lose against it soon after. Won some tournaments in my age group and beyond. Thought there must be more interesting problems to solve, got degrees in Math, Law and went into politics for a while. Friends from College call on your birthday, invite you to their weddings, they work on problems in medicine, economics, niches of math you've never heard of - you listen, a couple of days later, you wake up from a weird dream and wonder, ask Opus 4.5/Gemini 3.0 deepthink some questions, call them back: "did you try X ?" they tell you, that they always considered you a genius. You feel good about yourself for a moment before you remember that Von Neumann needed no LLMs and that José Raúl Capablanca died over half a decade before Turing wrote down the first algorithm for a Chess Computer. An Email from a client pops up, he isn't gonna pay your bill unless you make one more modification to that CRUD app. You want to eat and get back to work. Can't help but think about Eratosthenes who needed neither glasses nor telescopes to figure out the earths circumference. Would he have marvelled at the achievements of Newton and his successors at NASA or made fun of those nerds that needed polished pieces of glass not only to figure out the mysteries of the Universe but even for basic literacy.
The way most people think is by talking to each other but writing is a stronger way to think and writing to an LLM or with the help of an LLM has some of the benefits of talking with someone. Also, writing and sketchingon a piece of paper have unique advantages.
Writing improves thinking, and when uses correctly, LLMs can increase the rate at which one writes, journals and refines their thoughts.
I started teaching undergraduate computer science courses a year ago, after ~20 years in various other careers. My campus has relatively low enrollment, but has seen a massive increase in CS majors recently (for reasons I won’t go into) so they are hiring a lot without much instructional support in place. I was basically given zero preparation other than a zip file with the current instructor’s tests and homeworks (which are on paper, btw).
I thought that I would be using LLMs for coding, but it turns out that they have been much more useful as a sounding board for conceptual framing that I’d like to use while teaching. I have strong opinions about good software design, some of them unconventional, and these conversations have been incredibly helpful for turning my vague notions into precise, repeatable explanations for difficult abstractions.
I thought that I would be using LLMs for coding, but it turns out that they have been much more useful as a sounding board for conceptual framing that I’d like to use while teaching. I have strong opinions about good software design, some of them unconventional, and these conversations have been incredibly helpful for turning my vague notions into precise, repeatable explanations for difficult abstractions.
I found Geoffrey Hinton's hypothesis of LLMs interesting in this regard. They have to compress the world knowledge into a few billion parameters, much denser than the human brain, so they have to be very good at analogies, in order to obtain that compression.
I feel this has causality reversed. I'd say they are good at analogies because they have to compress well, which they do by encoding relationships in stupidly high-dimensional space.
Analogies then could sort of fall out naturally out of this. It might really still be just the simple (yet profound) "King - Man + Woman = Queen" style vector math.
Analogies then could sort of fall out naturally out of this. It might really still be just the simple (yet profound) "King - Man + Woman = Queen" style vector math.
That's essentially the manifold hypothesis of machine learning, right?
> I have strong opinions about good software design, some of them unconventional
I'm jealous of your undergrads - can you share some of the unconventional opinions?
I'm jealous of your undergrads - can you share some of the unconventional opinions?
Another principle that builds on the other two, and is specifically applicable to Java:
- To the greatest extent possible, base interfaces should define a single abstract method which allows them to be functional and instantiated through lambdas for easy mocking.
- Terminal interfaces (which are intended to be implemented directly by a concrete class) should always provide an abstract decorator implementation that wraps the concrete class for (1) interface isolation that can’t be bypassed by runtime reflection, and (2) decoration as an automatic extension point.
- To the greatest extent possible, base interfaces should define a single abstract method which allows them to be functional and instantiated through lambdas for easy mocking.
- Terminal interfaces (which are intended to be implemented directly by a concrete class) should always provide an abstract decorator implementation that wraps the concrete class for (1) interface isolation that can’t be bypassed by runtime reflection, and (2) decoration as an automatic extension point.
I’m required to teach DSA in Java, so I lay down a couple rules early in the course that prohibit 95% of the nonsense garbage that unconstrained OOP allows. Granted, neither of these rules is original or novel, but they are rarely acknowledged in educational settings:
1. All public methods must implement an interface, no exceptions. 2. The super implementation must be called if overriding a non-abstract method.
The end result of strict adherence to these rules is basically that every feature will look like a GoF design pattern. True creative freedom emerges through constraints, because the only allowable designs are the ones that are proven to be maximally extensible and composable.
1. All public methods must implement an interface, no exceptions. 2. The super implementation must be called if overriding a non-abstract method.
The end result of strict adherence to these rules is basically that every feature will look like a GoF design pattern. True creative freedom emerges through constraints, because the only allowable designs are the ones that are proven to be maximally extensible and composable.
but sometimes that is not worth it... IOW, it optimizes only to a couple of variables.
it's important not to lose sight of the ultimate goal: to get the machine to do what we want with the least amount of total human attention throughout the entire lifetime of the software.
it's a typical trap for good/idealist programmers to spend too much time on code that should already have been re-written, or not even written to begin with (because faster iteration can help refining the model/understanding, which in turn may lead to abandoning bad paths whose implementation should never have been refined to a better quality implementation).
i think it's a more important principle to always mark kludges and punts in the code and the design.
IOW sloppiness is allowed, but only when it's explicitly marked formally in code, and when not possible, then informally in comments and docs.
but then this entire discussion highly depends on the problem domain (e.g. on the cost of the various failures, etc).
it's important not to lose sight of the ultimate goal: to get the machine to do what we want with the least amount of total human attention throughout the entire lifetime of the software.
it's a typical trap for good/idealist programmers to spend too much time on code that should already have been re-written, or not even written to begin with (because faster iteration can help refining the model/understanding, which in turn may lead to abandoning bad paths whose implementation should never have been refined to a better quality implementation).
i think it's a more important principle to always mark kludges and punts in the code and the design.
IOW sloppiness is allowed, but only when it's explicitly marked formally in code, and when not possible, then informally in comments and docs.
but then this entire discussion highly depends on the problem domain (e.g. on the cost of the various failures, etc).
I don’t completely disagree, just like 90%. Junior developers typically aren’t taught the design patterns in the first place so they dig deeper holes rather than immediately recognizing that they need to refactor, pull out an interface and decorate/delegate/etc.
I’m also going to point out that this is a data structures course that I’m teaching, so extensibility and composability are paramount concerns because the interfaces we implement are at the heart of almost everything else in an application.
I’m also going to point out that this is a data structures course that I’m teaching, so extensibility and composability are paramount concerns because the interfaces we implement are at the heart of almost everything else in an application.
Your writing disagree -
"This is not <>. This is how <>."
"When <> or <>, <> is not <>. It is <>."
"That alignment is what produces the sense of recognition. I already had the shape of the idea. The model supplied a clean verbal form."
It's all LLM's. Nobody writes like this.
"This is not <>. This is how <>."
"When <> or <>, <> is not <>. It is <>."
"That alignment is what produces the sense of recognition. I already had the shape of the idea. The model supplied a clean verbal form."
It's all LLM's. Nobody writes like this.
I was having a similar odd sense of something being off, then got to
> This is not new. Writing has always done this for me. What is different is the speed. I can probe half-formed thoughts, discard bad formulations, and try again without much friction. That encourages a kind of thinking I might have otherwise skipped.
This is a mess. The triple enumeration, twice in a row, right in the middle of a message that warranted a more coherent train of thought. That is, they want to say they already experienced similar gains before from writing as an activity, but the llm conversations are better. Better in what way? Faster, and "less friction". What? What is even the friction in... writing? What made it slow as well, like, are you not writing prompts?
The LLM-ness of the formatting is literally getting in the way of the message. Maybe OOP didn't notice before publishing, but they successfully argued the opposite. Their communication got worse.
> This is not new. Writing has always done this for me. What is different is the speed. I can probe half-formed thoughts, discard bad formulations, and try again without much friction. That encourages a kind of thinking I might have otherwise skipped.
This is a mess. The triple enumeration, twice in a row, right in the middle of a message that warranted a more coherent train of thought. That is, they want to say they already experienced similar gains before from writing as an activity, but the llm conversations are better. Better in what way? Faster, and "less friction". What? What is even the friction in... writing? What made it slow as well, like, are you not writing prompts?
The LLM-ness of the formatting is literally getting in the way of the message. Maybe OOP didn't notice before publishing, but they successfully argued the opposite. Their communication got worse.
Ding ding ding!
Reading, and to some extent editing, is not an active task. In order to become better, at anything, you need to actively do the thing. If you're prompting LLM's, and using whatever they produce, all you'll see any improvement in is... prompting.
Reading, and to some extent editing, is not an active task. In order to become better, at anything, you need to actively do the thing. If you're prompting LLM's, and using whatever they produce, all you'll see any improvement in is... prompting.
I share the sentiment here about LLMs helping to surface personal tacit knowledge and the same time there was a popular post[1] yesterday about cognitive debt when using AI. It's hard not to be in agreement with both ideas.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46712678
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46712678
I guess it depends on how people interact with LLM. Cognitive debt may be acquired when people `talk` with machines, asking personal questions, like asking what to answer to the sms from a friend, etc.
It may seem different when people `command` LLMs to do particular actions. At the end, this community, most of all probably, understands that LLM is nothing else than advanced auto-complete with natural language interface instead of Bash.
> Write me an essay about birds in my area
Than later will be presented as human’s work compared to
> How does this codebase charge customers?
When a person needs to add trials to the existing billing.
The latter will result a deterministic code after (many) prompts that a person will be able to validate for correctness (another question if they will though).
It may seem different when people `command` LLMs to do particular actions. At the end, this community, most of all probably, understands that LLM is nothing else than advanced auto-complete with natural language interface instead of Bash.
> Write me an essay about birds in my area
Than later will be presented as human’s work compared to
> How does this codebase charge customers?
When a person needs to add trials to the existing billing.
The latter will result a deterministic code after (many) prompts that a person will be able to validate for correctness (another question if they will though).
I agree with the authors observations here. I think rather than it being purely language related, there's a link to the practice of 'rubber ducking', where when you start to explain your problem to someone else it forces you to step through the problem as you start to explain the context, the steps you've tried and where you're stuck. I think LLMs can be that other person for us sometimes, except that other person has a great broad range of expertise.
I've also found that talking through an idea with a language model can sharpen my thinking. It works a bit like rubber duck debugging: by explaining something to an impartial listener, you have to slow down and organise your thoughts, and you often notice gaps you didn't realise were there. The instant follow‑up questions help you explore angles you might not have considered.
I'm not sure I agree with this article's idea of what "good thinking" is. To me, good thinking is being able to think logically through a problem, account for detail and nuance, be able to see all the possibilities clearly. Not simply put vague intuitions into words. I do think intuitions are important, but they tend to be only a starting point for an investigation, preferrably an empirical one. While intuitions can be useful, trusting them is the root of all sorts of false ideas about the world. LLMs don't really help you question your intuitions, they'll give you false sense of confidence in them. This would make your thinking worse in my opinion.
That's my main usage for LLMs, they are usually intellectual sparring partners or researching my ideas to see who came up with them before and how they thought about them. So it's debate and literature research.
I find talking to LLMs both amazing and frustrating, a computer that can understand my plain text ramblings is incredible, but it's inability to learn is frustrating.
A good example, with junior developers I create thorough specs first and as I saw their skills and reasoning abilities progress my thoroughness drops as my trust in them grows. You just can't do that with LLMs
A good example, with junior developers I create thorough specs first and as I saw their skills and reasoning abilities progress my thoroughness drops as my trust in them grows. You just can't do that with LLMs
You can write an agent.md file and gradually add to it as you develop the project. The reason junior developers get better is that the context goes from low to high over the time you spend working with them. Yes, "learning".
I've found that maintaining a file that is designed to increase the LLM's awareness of how I want to approach problems, how I build / test / ship code etc, leads to the LLM making fewer annoying assumptions.
Almost all of the annoying assumptions that the LLM makes are "ok, but not how I want it done". I've gotten into the habit of keeping track of these in a file. Like the 10 commandments for LLMs. Now, whenever I'm starting a new context I drop in an agent.md and tell it to read that before starting. Fella like watching Trinity learn how to fly a helicopter before getting into it.
It's still not perfect, but I'm doing waaaay more work now to get annoyed by the LLM's inability to "automatically learn" without my help.
I've found that maintaining a file that is designed to increase the LLM's awareness of how I want to approach problems, how I build / test / ship code etc, leads to the LLM making fewer annoying assumptions.
Almost all of the annoying assumptions that the LLM makes are "ok, but not how I want it done". I've gotten into the habit of keeping track of these in a file. Like the 10 commandments for LLMs. Now, whenever I'm starting a new context I drop in an agent.md and tell it to read that before starting. Fella like watching Trinity learn how to fly a helicopter before getting into it.
It's still not perfect, but I'm doing waaaay more work now to get annoyed by the LLM's inability to "automatically learn" without my help.
There's limits to AGENTS.md too, a junior will start to understand the concepts/rationale and design decisions and be able to apply that knowledge to future problems, the LLM will not.
It's way too literally in its thinking.
It's way too literally in its thinking.
Finally I can relate to someone’s experience. For me even playing with image generators has improved my imagination.
ghosts react : imagine a youtube channel but opinions expressed are from the POV of a ghost.
put the above prompt and enjoy some imaginative writing.
put the above prompt and enjoy some imaginative writing.
prompt: Collapse of Circle to 3 points is like Quantum mechanics of mathematics.
I wonder if we've conflated thinking with literacy for too long.
While I'm comfortable with text, I often feel that my brain runs much smoother when I'm talking with colleagues in front of a whiteboard compared to writing alone. It makes me suspect that for centuries, we've filtered out brilliance from people whose brains are effectively wired for auditory or spatial reasoning rather than symbolic serialization. They've been fighting an uphill battle against the pen and the keyboard.
I'm optimistic that LLMs (and multimodal models) will finally provide the missing interfaces for these types of thinkers.
While I'm comfortable with text, I often feel that my brain runs much smoother when I'm talking with colleagues in front of a whiteboard compared to writing alone. It makes me suspect that for centuries, we've filtered out brilliance from people whose brains are effectively wired for auditory or spatial reasoning rather than symbolic serialization. They've been fighting an uphill battle against the pen and the keyboard.
I'm optimistic that LLMs (and multimodal models) will finally provide the missing interfaces for these types of thinkers.
> It is mapping a latent structure to language in a way that happens to align with your own internal model.
This is well explained! My experience is something similar - I have a vague notion of something, and I then prompt AI for its "perspective" or explanation to that something, and then me being able to have a sense if its response fits is quite a powerful tool.
This is well explained! My experience is something similar - I have a vague notion of something, and I then prompt AI for its "perspective" or explanation to that something, and then me being able to have a sense if its response fits is quite a powerful tool.
Of course it has, I doubt this is uncommon.
All my childhood I dreamed of a magic computer that could just tell me straightforward answers to non-straightforward questions like the cartoon one in Courage the Cowardly Dog. Today it's a reality; I can ask my computer any wild question and get a coherent, if not completely correct, answer.
All my childhood I dreamed of a magic computer that could just tell me straightforward answers to non-straightforward questions like the cartoon one in Courage the Cowardly Dog. Today it's a reality; I can ask my computer any wild question and get a coherent, if not completely correct, answer.
You are in for a rude awakening when you realize that those answers tend to be subtly to blatently wrong especially when the questions are tricky and non-obvious. Once that blind initial trust is shattered and you stary to question the accuracy of what AI gives you back, you see the BS everywhere.
Of course due diligence and validation is needed if you intend to use the information for something, but if your aim is just to satisfy your curiosity with questions you don't have anyone else to ask, it's a great medium.
Is it though? Is seeing a wrong answer really better than to be left wondering?
There is enough unintentional half-knowledge (and intentional misinformation) out there. We don't need to make that worse by introducing BS generators just to "satisfy curiosity".
There is enough unintentional half-knowledge (and intentional misinformation) out there. We don't need to make that worse by introducing BS generators just to "satisfy curiosity".
I can somewhat relate to this in the sense that LLMs help me explore different paths of my thought process. The only way to do this earlier was to actually sit down and write it all out and carefully look for gaps. But now the fast feedback loop of LLMs speeds up this process. At times it even shows some path which I hadn't thought of. Or it firms up a direction which I thought only had vague connection.
To take one concrete example, it helped me get a well rounded picture of how British despite having such low footprint in India (at their peak there were about 150K of them) were able to colonise it with 300+ million population.
To take one concrete example, it helped me get a well rounded picture of how British despite having such low footprint in India (at their peak there were about 150K of them) were able to colonise it with 300+ million population.
> ...sense that LLMs help me explore different paths of my thought process
Are you able to expand on this? I'm really curious to know what you mean by "different paths of though process"
Are you able to expand on this? I'm really curious to know what you mean by "different paths of though process"
That was a typo, sorry. Meant to write “thought process..”.
Continuing my example…LLM listed out a bunch of reasons such as advanced weapons, organizational structure, etc. I can then explore each of those areas further.
Or when I wanted to understand the raise of regional languages in India. Similar process as before…
My larger point was that LLMs now makes it possible to speed run this research curiosity of mine. This sort of a thing was next to impossible in traditional google/web search world.
Of course we need to fact check and eventually read the actual source.
Continuing my example…LLM listed out a bunch of reasons such as advanced weapons, organizational structure, etc. I can then explore each of those areas further.
Or when I wanted to understand the raise of regional languages in India. Similar process as before…
My larger point was that LLMs now makes it possible to speed run this research curiosity of mine. This sort of a thing was next to impossible in traditional google/web search world.
Of course we need to fact check and eventually read the actual source.
Ah, ok, thanks for clarifying! Yes, they make that kind of data gathering so much faster, though I do struggle sometimes with verifying sources.
Is not like doing a "semantic search ? I have the feeling that LLMs are great in that topic. For example, I describe a design pattern and LLMs give me the technical name of that design pattern.
It has improved my understanding of emotional dynamics between people. If anything has made me realize may be a bit more on the spectrum that I had realized...
>The more I do this, the better I get at noticing what I actually think.
Which reminds me of a quote from E.M Forster: "How do I know what I think until I see what I say?"
Which reminds me of a quote from E.M Forster: "How do I know what I think until I see what I say?"
It definitely helps with expressing oneself in good "structured English" (or whatever natural language you speak). In my humble opinion, this is exactly the future of programming so it is worth it to invest some time and also learn how natural language processing if functioning.
Does it? I can blurb whatever grammatical, structural, spelling mess into the LLM input, it still gets what I mean. If I do that with a co-worker, they will be either offended or ask if I'm drunk or both.
Just like omnipresent spell-check got people used to not caring about their correct spelling since a machine always fixes it up for them. It made spelling proficiency worse. We could see a similar trend in how people express themselves if they spend a lot if time with forgiving non-judgemental LLMs.
Just like omnipresent spell-check got people used to not caring about their correct spelling since a machine always fixes it up for them. It made spelling proficiency worse. We could see a similar trend in how people express themselves if they spend a lot if time with forgiving non-judgemental LLMs.
Your best friend or sibling or partner can possibly understand whatever you mumble without being offended, but it adds to ambiguity and errors or misunderstandings. That's why learning to write in bulletproof structured English decreases this danger. Thankfully, the same is desired for LLMs, even if they can catch most unimportant (spelling) errors.
This guy is older than I am and writes much worse than I do. Maybe AI 'helps' but the writing of this post is terrible and I was left wondering if he has a learning disability and if AI can help with that
Writing is ultimately just a communication tool. I think the author communicated their ideas effectively. I don't think that it is necessary or appropriate to speculate whether or not they have a learning disability.
Right. If writing is thinking, the OP's thinking is still muddled. Maybe it has improved, or maybe it hasn't, but I don't think we should take advice about how to improve from one who has failed to improve very much.
I agree that LLMs can be useful companions for thought when used correctly. I don’t agree that LLMs are good at “supplying clean verbal form” of vaguely expressed, half-formed ideas and that this results in clearer thinking.
Most of the time, the LLM’s framing of my idea is more generic and superficial than what I was actually getting at. It looks good, but when you look closer it often misses the point, on some level.
There is a real danger, to the extent you allow yourself to accept the LLM’s version of your idea, that you will lose the originality and uniqueness that made the idea interesting in the first place.
I think the struggle to frame a complex idea and the frustration that you feel when the right framing eludes you, is actually where most of the value is, and the LLM cheat code to skip past this pain is not really a good thing.
Most of the time, the LLM’s framing of my idea is more generic and superficial than what I was actually getting at. It looks good, but when you look closer it often misses the point, on some level.
There is a real danger, to the extent you allow yourself to accept the LLM’s version of your idea, that you will lose the originality and uniqueness that made the idea interesting in the first place.
I think the struggle to frame a complex idea and the frustration that you feel when the right framing eludes you, is actually where most of the value is, and the LLM cheat code to skip past this pain is not really a good thing.
I often discuss ideas with peers that I trust to be strong critical thinkers. Putting the idea through their filters of scrutiny quickly exposes vulnerabilities that I'd have to patch on the spot, sometimes revealing weaknesses resulting from bad assumptions.
I started to use LLMs in a similar fashion. It is a different experience. Where a human would deconstruct you for fun, the LLM tries to engage positively by default. Once you tell it to say it the way it is, you get the "honestly, this may fail and here's why".
To my assessment, an LLM is better than being alone in a task and that is the value proposition.
I started to use LLMs in a similar fashion. It is a different experience. Where a human would deconstruct you for fun, the LLM tries to engage positively by default. Once you tell it to say it the way it is, you get the "honestly, this may fail and here's why".
To my assessment, an LLM is better than being alone in a task and that is the value proposition.
LLM’s are tools. A huge differentiator between professionals in any profession is how well they know their tools.
But one of the first things to understand about power tools is to know all the ways in which they can kill you.
But one of the first things to understand about power tools is to know all the ways in which they can kill you.
agree with this article 100%... its those who have no long term programming experience who are likely complaining - the models are just a mirror, a coworker... if you can't accurately describe what you want (with the proper details and patterns you've learned across the years) your going to get generic stuff back
It's not that you weren't thinking. It's that you weren't thinking /right/...?
This is rubber ducking with extra steps and a subscription fee.
This is very interesting because I have been thinking vaguely about a somewhat "opposite" effect. In the sense, talking to LLMs kills my enthusiasm for an idea with other people.
Sometimes, I' get excited by an idea, may be even write a bit about it. Then turn to LLMs to explore it a bit more. An hour later, I feel drained. Like I have explored it from so many angles and nuance that it starts to feel tiresome.
And within that span of couple of hours, the idea goes from "Aha! Let's talk to others about it!" to "Meh.."
EDIT: I do agree with this framing from the article though: "Once an idea is written down, it becomes easier to work with..... This is not new. Writing has always done this for me."
Sometimes, I' get excited by an idea, may be even write a bit about it. Then turn to LLMs to explore it a bit more. An hour later, I feel drained. Like I have explored it from so many angles and nuance that it starts to feel tiresome.
And within that span of couple of hours, the idea goes from "Aha! Let's talk to others about it!" to "Meh.."
EDIT: I do agree with this framing from the article though: "Once an idea is written down, it becomes easier to work with..... This is not new. Writing has always done this for me."
it's really easy to tell when it's gaslighting you and wasting your time. Pretty much any time you have to explain something to it it already knows.
I wonder if this person reads books.
I hate to be "that guy", but I think this text was at least partially written by AI:
"This is not a failure. It is how experience operates."
This bit is a clear sign to me, as I am repeatedly irritated by the AI I use that basically almost always defaults to this kind of phrasing each time I ask it something. I even asked it explicitly in my system prompt not to do it
"This is not a failure. It is how experience operates."
This bit is a clear sign to me, as I am repeatedly irritated by the AI I use that basically almost always defaults to this kind of phrasing each time I ask it something. I even asked it explicitly in my system prompt not to do it
I agree with this. It is an extremely powerful tool when used judiciously. I have always learned and sharpened my ideas best through critical dialog with others. (After two and a half thousand years it may be that we still don't have a better way of teaching than the one Socrates advocated.) But human attention is a scarce resource; even in my job, where I can reasonably ping people for a quick chat or a whiteboard session or fire off some slack messages, I don't want to do that too often. People are busy and you need to pick the right moment and make sure you're getting the most value from their precious time.
No such restriction on LLMs: Opus is available to talk to me day or night and I don't feel bad about sending it half-baked ideas (or about ghosting it half way through the discussion). And LLMs read with an attention to detail that almost no human has the time for; I can't think of anyone who has engaged with my writing quite this closely, with the one exception of my PhD advisor.
LLMs conversations are particularly good for topics outside work where I don't have an easily-available conversational partner at all. Areas of math I want to brush up on. Tricky topics in machine learning outside the scope of what I do in my job. Obscure topics in history or philosophy or aviation. And so on. I've learned so much in the last year this way.
But! It's is an art and it is quite easy to do it badly. You need to prompt the LLM to take a critical stance towards your ideas (in the current world of Opus 4.5 and Gemini 3, sycophancy isn't as much of a problem as it was, but LLMs still can be overly oriented to please). And you need to take a critical stance yourself. Interrogate its answers, and push it to clarify points that aren't obvious. Sometimes you learn something new, sometimes you expose fuzziness in the LLM's description (in which case it will usually give you the concept at a deeper level). Sometimes in the back-and-forth you realize you forgot to give it some critical piece of context, and when you do that it reframes the whole discussion.
I see plenty of examples of people just taking LLM's answers at face value like it's some kind of oracle (and I'm sure the comments here will contain many negative anecdotes like that). You can't do that; you need to engage and try and chip away at its position and come to some synthesis. The nice thing is the LLM won't mind having its ideas rigorously interrogated, which is something humans can be touchy about (though not always, and the most productive human collaborations are usually ones where both people can criticize each other's ideas freely).
For better or for worse, the people who will do best in this world are those with a rigorously critical mindset and an ability to communicate well, especially in writing. (If you're in college, consider throwing in a minor in philosophy or history alongside that CompSci major!) Those were already valuable skills, and they have even more leverage now.
No such restriction on LLMs: Opus is available to talk to me day or night and I don't feel bad about sending it half-baked ideas (or about ghosting it half way through the discussion). And LLMs read with an attention to detail that almost no human has the time for; I can't think of anyone who has engaged with my writing quite this closely, with the one exception of my PhD advisor.
LLMs conversations are particularly good for topics outside work where I don't have an easily-available conversational partner at all. Areas of math I want to brush up on. Tricky topics in machine learning outside the scope of what I do in my job. Obscure topics in history or philosophy or aviation. And so on. I've learned so much in the last year this way.
But! It's is an art and it is quite easy to do it badly. You need to prompt the LLM to take a critical stance towards your ideas (in the current world of Opus 4.5 and Gemini 3, sycophancy isn't as much of a problem as it was, but LLMs still can be overly oriented to please). And you need to take a critical stance yourself. Interrogate its answers, and push it to clarify points that aren't obvious. Sometimes you learn something new, sometimes you expose fuzziness in the LLM's description (in which case it will usually give you the concept at a deeper level). Sometimes in the back-and-forth you realize you forgot to give it some critical piece of context, and when you do that it reframes the whole discussion.
I see plenty of examples of people just taking LLM's answers at face value like it's some kind of oracle (and I'm sure the comments here will contain many negative anecdotes like that). You can't do that; you need to engage and try and chip away at its position and come to some synthesis. The nice thing is the LLM won't mind having its ideas rigorously interrogated, which is something humans can be touchy about (though not always, and the most productive human collaborations are usually ones where both people can criticize each other's ideas freely).
For better or for worse, the people who will do best in this world are those with a rigorously critical mindset and an ability to communicate well, especially in writing. (If you're in college, consider throwing in a minor in philosophy or history alongside that CompSci major!) Those were already valuable skills, and they have even more leverage now.