Japanese Death Poems(secretorum.life)
secretorum.life
Japanese Death Poems
https://www.secretorum.life/p/japanese-death-poems-part-3
50 comments
I am a native Japanese
Original Kanji - hiragana works: おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉
How it sounds: Oh ke naki Yukano nishikiya chiri ko yo
Original Kanji - hiragana works: おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉
How it sounds: Oh ke naki Yukano nishikiya chiri ko yo
In which case the "crimson carpet" appears to be the loose invention of the translator. The original just says "brocade" or I guess, "quilt", implying some sort of silk bed cover?
Try an image search with 紅葉 落葉. The result will be the typical image a Japanese person imagines when hearing 散り紅葉. Then try the same search with "crimson carpet." From the standpoint of literary and artistic sensibility, the difference is not small.
>> I really wish they'd cite the original Japanese.
Given the Japanese above, translate.google can do text to speech[1], and goog AIMode[3] and bing/chat[2][4] can give multiple translations with notes.
But finding that Japanese, given only the TFA's description? I only saw AIMode manage that, not vanilla search. Perhaps using the author's Japanese wikipedia page[5], or perhaps here, or?
[1] https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en&text=%E3%81%8A%E... [2] https://copilot.microsoft.com/shares/JcJSRgDDvT84M16x7RJDb [3] https://share.google/aimode/FNEXZGRPFPANlvNwd [4] https://copilot.microsoft.com/shares/wjaWnGHNpGs18X4M6CJV6 [5] https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%99%9A%E7%99%BD
Given the Japanese above, translate.google can do text to speech[1], and goog AIMode[3] and bing/chat[2][4] can give multiple translations with notes.
But finding that Japanese, given only the TFA's description? I only saw AIMode manage that, not vanilla search. Perhaps using the author's Japanese wikipedia page[5], or perhaps here, or?
[1] https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en&text=%E3%81%8A%E... [2] https://copilot.microsoft.com/shares/JcJSRgDDvT84M16x7RJDb [3] https://share.google/aimode/FNEXZGRPFPANlvNwd [4] https://copilot.microsoft.com/shares/wjaWnGHNpGs18X4M6CJV6 [5] https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%99%9A%E7%99%BD
Oh ho ke na ki?
It is modern Japanese pronunciation. In classical literature, おほ is pronounced as a prolonged "o" (an elongated /oː/ sound).
Agree 10,000 fold.
English and Japanese are so different and have such different standards of aesthetics and literary form that good translations are like independent creations inspired by the original.
I would like to know that the original form was.
Even a word by word ungrammatical transliteration would be helpful. But not to have the Japanese available means I cannot even look it up...
As a native Japanese speaker, I'm happy to see our literature introduced to other countries. But I also feel conflicted.
The original Japanese of the first poem is:
おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉
The translation on the site:
> I am not worthy > of this crimson carpet: > autumn maple leaves.
This contains the translator's interpretation, and the sound and intonation are completely lost. I admire the translator's effort, but I want visitors to understand how much this differs from the original.
The original Japanese of the first poem is:
おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉
The translation on the site:
> I am not worthy > of this crimson carpet: > autumn maple leaves.
This contains the translator's interpretation, and the sound and intonation are completely lost. I admire the translator's effort, but I want visitors to understand how much this differs from the original.
This is the general problem with literature and poetry especially. They're not entirely translatable.
- Languages are part of culture and they are historically conditioned, making them necessarily bounded and finite [0]. While the essential thing signified may be the same for corresponding words in two languages (snow vs. Schnee), there is variance in semantic emphasis, connotation, and symbolic significance. In other words, the pragmatic aspect of language is highly contextual and conditioned.
- Words can be used univocally, equivocally, or analogically, and there isn't necessarily a correspondence between these constellations across any two languages. But so much of wordplay trades on such constellations.
- The syntactic and phonetic features peculiar to a language - apart from the what is signified per se - is heavily exploited by poetry.
[0] This reminds me of words like the Greek λόγος (logos), which does not find a satisfactory counterpart in any language as far as I can tell. (Approximations are Tao, Ṛta, or Ma'at, for instance.) You see this difficulty in the translation of John 1 where it is usually rendered verbum or word, which have their own perfections, but fail to do justice to the richness of the original meaning of Logos in passages like John 1:1 and 1:3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [...] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." When you substitute "Word" with "Logos", you can clearly see how much more pregnant that message is, e.g., that, contrary to the pagan mythology of those John was addressing, in the beginning there was order, not chaos; that God is Reason; that everything that exists is caused by God and therefore fundamentally intelligible. (Curiously, the Latin Verbum is better than the Greek at emphasizing the procession of divine Reason as Second Person from the First Person in the Trinity.)
- Languages are part of culture and they are historically conditioned, making them necessarily bounded and finite [0]. While the essential thing signified may be the same for corresponding words in two languages (snow vs. Schnee), there is variance in semantic emphasis, connotation, and symbolic significance. In other words, the pragmatic aspect of language is highly contextual and conditioned.
- Words can be used univocally, equivocally, or analogically, and there isn't necessarily a correspondence between these constellations across any two languages. But so much of wordplay trades on such constellations.
- The syntactic and phonetic features peculiar to a language - apart from the what is signified per se - is heavily exploited by poetry.
[0] This reminds me of words like the Greek λόγος (logos), which does not find a satisfactory counterpart in any language as far as I can tell. (Approximations are Tao, Ṛta, or Ma'at, for instance.) You see this difficulty in the translation of John 1 where it is usually rendered verbum or word, which have their own perfections, but fail to do justice to the richness of the original meaning of Logos in passages like John 1:1 and 1:3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [...] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." When you substitute "Word" with "Logos", you can clearly see how much more pregnant that message is, e.g., that, contrary to the pagan mythology of those John was addressing, in the beginning there was order, not chaos; that God is Reason; that everything that exists is caused by God and therefore fundamentally intelligible. (Curiously, the Latin Verbum is better than the Greek at emphasizing the procession of divine Reason as Second Person from the First Person in the Trinity.)
True, but there is no obstacle in the way of showing the source. Especially considering how concise Japanese is. Best of both worlds. Fascinating discussion in this whole thread.
By "procession", do you allude to the filioque clause? Agreed on difficulty of translation as I follow Quine so think a language as a whole is the unit of meaning as opposed to any specific granular element.
> By "procession", do you allude to the filioque clause?
The filioque is about the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son, not the Son from the Father.
The filioque is about the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son, not the Son from the Father.
I feel like trying to replicate the meter in English is a silly constraint
I would prefer to know how each line would be best interpreted if it weren't a haiku
I would prefer to know how each line would be best interpreted if it weren't a haiku
I am not a literature lover. I found a modern language interpretation of the poem. Many interpretation are possible. But I feel this is relevant.
I translated it to English.
============
おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 "Ohokenaki toko no nishiki ya chiri momiji" is interpreted as a haiku-like expression of introspection and refined aesthetic sensibility — one in which the speaker, surrounded by undeserved honor (ohokenaki) and luxurious living (toko no nishiki = sumptuous furnishings), gazes upon the fleeting falling autumn leaves and reflects on their own vanity and attachment to life.
Key points of interpretation: おほけなき Ohokenaki (身の程知らず /畏れ多い): Refers to a luxurious situation or standing that exceeds one's true worth or station — something almost presumptuous to possess. 床の錦 Toko no nishiki: Literally, a beautifully brocaded floor covering; a symbol of opulence. By extension, it evokes the sight of vivid autumn leaves carpeting the ground — the splendor of autumn (nishiki-aki) likened to a gorgeous spread of fabric. 散り紅葉 Chiri momiji : Falling, scattering autumn leaves — a classic symbol of impermanence and the Buddhist sense of transience (mujo). Overall picture: The speaker finds themselves in lavish surroundings that feel undeserved (ohokenaki), while the scattering leaves (mujo) adorn that world with a beauty that is at once gorgeous and hollow — a quiet contrast between humility and the ephemeral.
Even amid a life of splendor, the sight of leaves falling reveals a universal truth — that all things must eventually end. The poem captures a mood that is gently melancholic yet elevated: savoring that beauty from a place of quiet, dignified acceptance.
============
おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 "Ohokenaki toko no nishiki ya chiri momiji" is interpreted as a haiku-like expression of introspection and refined aesthetic sensibility — one in which the speaker, surrounded by undeserved honor (ohokenaki) and luxurious living (toko no nishiki = sumptuous furnishings), gazes upon the fleeting falling autumn leaves and reflects on their own vanity and attachment to life.
Key points of interpretation: おほけなき Ohokenaki (身の程知らず /畏れ多い): Refers to a luxurious situation or standing that exceeds one's true worth or station — something almost presumptuous to possess. 床の錦 Toko no nishiki: Literally, a beautifully brocaded floor covering; a symbol of opulence. By extension, it evokes the sight of vivid autumn leaves carpeting the ground — the splendor of autumn (nishiki-aki) likened to a gorgeous spread of fabric. 散り紅葉 Chiri momiji : Falling, scattering autumn leaves — a classic symbol of impermanence and the Buddhist sense of transience (mujo). Overall picture: The speaker finds themselves in lavish surroundings that feel undeserved (ohokenaki), while the scattering leaves (mujo) adorn that world with a beauty that is at once gorgeous and hollow — a quiet contrast between humility and the ephemeral.
Even amid a life of splendor, the sight of leaves falling reveals a universal truth — that all things must eventually end. The poem captures a mood that is gently melancholic yet elevated: savoring that beauty from a place of quiet, dignified acceptance.
Thank you for this. I'm just realizing that the pronoun "I" has no place in most haiku.
[deleted]
Sound and intonation are never going to translate between Japanese and English. It's not even on the table.
Such things can't even necessarily translate well between two languages as similar as French and English. Japanese and English is completely hopeless.
It's true in the other direction too, though this being an English site it might be more easily neglected. I've seen some English songs translated into Japanese, keeping the same syllable count scheme. The Japanese is radically simplified compared to the English, with entire adverbs, adjectives, even clauses removed. And that's even before we ask whether Japanese necessarily has the correct words to translate some of the richer English concepts with their own centuries of history and connotation behind them that these songs contained.
It is what it is. There isn't much that can be done about it. Even if someone made an exhaustive translation of something, it could never be repacked into something that matches the original concise packing.
Such things can't even necessarily translate well between two languages as similar as French and English. Japanese and English is completely hopeless.
It's true in the other direction too, though this being an English site it might be more easily neglected. I've seen some English songs translated into Japanese, keeping the same syllable count scheme. The Japanese is radically simplified compared to the English, with entire adverbs, adjectives, even clauses removed. And that's even before we ask whether Japanese necessarily has the correct words to translate some of the richer English concepts with their own centuries of history and connotation behind them that these songs contained.
It is what it is. There isn't much that can be done about it. Even if someone made an exhaustive translation of something, it could never be repacked into something that matches the original concise packing.
[deleted]
As a native speaker, would there be any way that you could translate this back one poem back into Japanese? I am curious what the original would be, and if the translation was truly accurate. It was favorite one from the article:
RAIZAN (来山) Died on the 3rd day of the 10th month, 1716 at the age of 63
Farewell, sire—
like snow, from water come
to water gone.
RAIZAN (来山) Died on the 3rd day of the 10th month, 1716 at the age of 63
Farewell, sire—
like snow, from water come
to water gone.
Don’t just stand there with your hair turning gray,
soon enough the seas will sink your little island.
So while there is still the illusion of time,
set out for another shore.
No sense packing a bag.
You won’t be able to lift it into your boat.
Give away all your collections.
Take only new seeds and an old stick.
Send out some prayers on the wind before you sail.
Don’t be afraid.
Someone knows you’re coming.
An extra fish has been salted.
from The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully by Frank Ostaseski
Now that my storehouse
has burned down, nothing
conceals the moon.
Ever since my house burnt down,
I see the moon more clearly
I was reminded of the writer Pico Iyer's beautiful writing in Aflame: Learning from Silence of exactly this sentiment, after his house burned down [1]
`My house burnt down
I can now see better
The rising moon`
[1] https://www.mariashriversundaypaper.com/pico-iyers-fire-grie...
`My house burnt down
I can now see better
The rising moon`
[1] https://www.mariashriversundaypaper.com/pico-iyers-fire-grie...
"when my house burned down, I gained an unobstructed view of the sky"
A different translation of the same
A different translation of the same
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.
~~
Having a mental illness and being homeless I sit with my life now and let it melt. I know death is coming so I just let it come. I tried to force death to come twice, but I found that suffering is really no different that joy.
I live in a van right now so I am upper class homeless but soon I may be totally shelterless. Part of me is looking forward to it. Through the last ten years, moving from riches to rags, all my past attachments, all I can do is laugh at myself. There is such a weird liberation in inescapable suffering and I hope you all get to experience it someday.
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.
~~
Having a mental illness and being homeless I sit with my life now and let it melt. I know death is coming so I just let it come. I tried to force death to come twice, but I found that suffering is really no different that joy.
I live in a van right now so I am upper class homeless but soon I may be totally shelterless. Part of me is looking forward to it. Through the last ten years, moving from riches to rags, all my past attachments, all I can do is laugh at myself. There is such a weird liberation in inescapable suffering and I hope you all get to experience it someday.
in contrast: death row inmate's last statements https://web.archive.org/web/20250221030618/https://www.tdcj....
Wow, I wonder what I would say if I had no choice but to accept dying
Maybe just one word F
Makes me think of that infinite improbability drive scene 2005, these people reach the end of their maze, life path
Maybe just one word F
Makes me think of that infinite improbability drive scene 2005, these people reach the end of their maze, life path
In the topic of death poems, I consider "You Want It Darker" by Leonard Cohen a masterpiece. He was 83 with terminal cancer. Yet, this song captures both his wit & spirit at its height.
such a good tune
The sun sips the sky until it is drowning
I am circling my prey
If I am strong, the world will finally let us be
https://pearlharbor.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/USS-Essex...
I am circling my prey
If I am strong, the world will finally let us be
https://pearlharbor.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/USS-Essex...
If you enjoy longer poems, then you might like The Rag and Bone Shop of the Heart (1992). https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/162343.The_Rag_and_Bone_...
So this is where the Tenchu video game series gets its inspiration for some of its game over screens.
This is surely epitaph equivalent from that part of the world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epitaph?useskin=vector
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epitaph?useskin=vector
Yes, some of the translations are inexact, but what gets me is how many of these are still beautiful and even profound even after they are translated.
"A last fart:
are these the leaves
of my dream, vainly falling?
In the original, the image of a dream is combined with the cruder image of passing wind.."
Is the wind representing the fart here?
In the original, the image of a dream is combined with the cruder image of passing wind.."
Is the wind representing the fart here?
"Passing wind" is an English euphemism, the original does not use "kaze" (wind) but goes straight for "he" (fart).
The original word order also puts the dream at the start and drops fart right at the end, which I think is funnier than putting it on the first line.
The original word order also puts the dream at the start and drops fart right at the end, which I think is funnier than putting it on the first line.
I particularly loved this one. I interpreted it as a man indulging in one last ephemeral vanity. A literal last fart in the whirlwind of life used as a metaphor to illustrate how useless mankind's boasts are next to the inevitability and finality of death
Passing wind is another term (among many others) for farting.
I feel the profound
written word austerity;
Death, captured in time
written word austerity;
Death, captured in time
"Death poems
are mere delusion—
death is death."
Hardcore
are mere delusion—
death is death."
Hardcore
Death is apparently snowy
I don't know whether there is a specific japanese cultural explanation, but in general it often was. In winter when it was cold, those who lacked the strength to go on, layed down in the snow to rest forever.
Everything dies in winter. And then is reborn. Everyone who lives in a cold climate knows deep in their bones that cold and winter are death.
Though if we're going to get stereotypical about national characteristics (a dangerous game) then what might be more specifically Japanese is the particularly heightened understanding of this cycle. Or at least, its expression in art, when in the west we might flinch away.
I'm currently reading Spring Snow, so probably some of Yukio Mishima is drifting into my thoughts here. (Explaining puns ruins them but there it is again: Yuki o. Snow.)
Though if we're going to get stereotypical about national characteristics (a dangerous game) then what might be more specifically Japanese is the particularly heightened understanding of this cycle. Or at least, its expression in art, when in the west we might flinch away.
I'm currently reading Spring Snow, so probably some of Yukio Mishima is drifting into my thoughts here. (Explaining puns ruins them but there it is again: Yuki o. Snow.)
Not to mention the stillness and silence of new fallen snow. Probably the closest in life we come to the stillness and silence of death.
I don't remember who said it, but a statement that has stuck with me is:
The moment when the most you can do is less than the least you need to do, you die.
The moment when the most you can do is less than the least you need to do, you die.
spirits travel to rest in the mountains after death. the mountain is a place between life and death. there is much association between mountains and death. then by extension snow
By comparison, the gold standard for dealing with non-English poetry in English: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1...
You have (1) the original Greek, (2) word-by-word lookup, (3) translation notes, and (4) multiple translations.