Ask HN: Internships for a 13-year-old?
84 comments
Maybe not the most popular opinion here, or maybe it will be, but advice from a father of two boys:
Enjoy your childhood for the remaining 3-5 years before worrying so much about your professional career. You have decades of working in software ahead of you, if you continue on that path. Just enjoy your childhood, go out and play, or even just work on projects you enjoy. Once your childhood is gone, you'll regret not spending more time "not working."
You sound like you already have the work ethic, now make sure you focus on why you need it.
Enjoy your childhood for the remaining 3-5 years before worrying so much about your professional career. You have decades of working in software ahead of you, if you continue on that path. Just enjoy your childhood, go out and play, or even just work on projects you enjoy. Once your childhood is gone, you'll regret not spending more time "not working."
You sound like you already have the work ethic, now make sure you focus on why you need it.
It's easy to romanticize "carefree childhood", but I think that's baloney. I've loved working with computers for literally as long as I can remember. When I was 13, working with computers was playing! Getting paid to play would have been a dream come true for me at that age.
I've loved it, too, but I don't look back and treasure my countless hours coding. It's great to have a skill, but the things I remember are time I spent with my family and friends.
Would you go back in time and do things differently? I personally wouldn't, I would do things the same way again; I was crazy motivated when I was younger.
I had an amazing time as a teenager because I spent all my time coding or with people I care about. The only negative consequences was that I got bad grades. I certainly don't regret getting bad grades.
Do you treasure countless hours with family and friends, or do you treasure a set of memorable moments?
Also, not everyone is an extrovery.
I treasure the time as well as the moments. It's hard to get very close to people with just a memorable set of moments.
You don't have to be an extrovert to enjoy close personal relationships or have regrets about how much time you spent with loved ones when you had the chance.
I'm sure there are people who don't value people or relationships. If OP is one of them, I'm sure he'll disregard my advice categorically.
You don't have to be an extrovert to enjoy close personal relationships or have regrets about how much time you spent with loved ones when you had the chance.
I'm sure there are people who don't value people or relationships. If OP is one of them, I'm sure he'll disregard my advice categorically.
Yeah, same. While it's important that kids aren't forced into working, I think it's just as important to recognize that some kids are genuinely excited by the field and by the prospect of getting to work with people who can help them develop their skills. It doesn't have to be some soul crushing thing. Starting work early gave me a sense of self-worth that is irreplaceable and I can't count how many times I heard from adults "just be a kid, don't worry about all that!" I have no regrets, working early was exciting, self-fulfilling and gave me a lot of freedom in life much earlier that many of my peers.
[deleted]
That's basically it in a nutshell. I don't think it even occurred to me when I was a kid that people "worked" with computers. I loved programming games and exercises from books and magazines. That was the pinnacle of fun for me. I think my mind would have been blown if you told me back then that I could have a job doing what I do today.
I think it depends more on why he wants the internship, and what his situation is.
Getting an internship is certainly not just "getting paid to play" in my experience. I loved working on computers as well, but working is sadly not the same as playing in your free time. The main difference of course is that you don't necessarily choose what you work on or when you work on it.
I remember asking someone why she would choose not to do something she loves for a living if she could get paid to do it. Her response, "Because I don't want to end up hating it."
That being said, I do like my job. Still, there are other things I would work on if I didn't need to get paid, even beyond the non work related things I already work on.
I remember asking someone why she would choose not to do something she loves for a living if she could get paid to do it. Her response, "Because I don't want to end up hating it."
That being said, I do like my job. Still, there are other things I would work on if I didn't need to get paid, even beyond the non work related things I already work on.
Not intending to be argumentative -- merely to present a countervailing perspective:
When I was 13, I was incredibly fortunate to land an internship at Marvel Comics in NY. For a teenage boy obsessed with the X-Men, this was like dying and going to heaven. I didn't even care that I was given menial tasks and paid entirely in comic books. I got to meet John Byrne, and that was enough.
The OP sounds like someone with enough interest in programming that an internship would be at least as much about "fun" as it is about "professional development".
I say, if it sounds like fun, go for it. If nothing else, it'll be an opportunity to meet software professionals with as much genuine interest in programming as you have, as well as some who are in the industry for other reasons. Both will be instructive.
When I was 13, I was incredibly fortunate to land an internship at Marvel Comics in NY. For a teenage boy obsessed with the X-Men, this was like dying and going to heaven. I didn't even care that I was given menial tasks and paid entirely in comic books. I got to meet John Byrne, and that was enough.
The OP sounds like someone with enough interest in programming that an internship would be at least as much about "fun" as it is about "professional development".
I say, if it sounds like fun, go for it. If nothing else, it'll be an opportunity to meet software professionals with as much genuine interest in programming as you have, as well as some who are in the industry for other reasons. Both will be instructive.
Many people who are the best at what they do started their careers very early. If someone wants do that then I don't think you should discourage them. Being satisfied with your career and work over the span of a lifetime because you spent the time to get good at it is more valuable a few years of goofing off.
Besides, age 13-14 is when you start high school, and that's when things get real anyway. If you intend to apply to a top school you need any advantage you can get, and work experience in jobs that are actual careers is impressive.
Besides, age 13-14 is when you start high school, and that's when things get real anyway. If you intend to apply to a top school you need any advantage you can get, and work experience in jobs that are actual careers is impressive.
I started charging for software development at 14. As I've said elsewhere, it didn't have any effect on my career whether I was charging for the work or not. Everything I did as a teenager was only valuable because I kept having to learn new areas of programming.
> more valuable a few years of goofing off
That depends on what "goofing off" is. Is it socializing and developing interpersonal skills? Because wild success hinges much more on interpersonal skills than it does on being the best programmer.
> more valuable a few years of goofing off
That depends on what "goofing off" is. Is it socializing and developing interpersonal skills? Because wild success hinges much more on interpersonal skills than it does on being the best programmer.
Socializing in high school != socializing in an industry.
I think you'd learn more about how to socialize with adults in an industry by hanging out with them... at work. And these are the people you want to get along with anyways.
I think you'd learn more about how to socialize with adults in an industry by hanging out with them... at work. And these are the people you want to get along with anyways.
I did an internship when I was 13 and I enjoyed it.
I agree with mathgeek, just saying that doing an internship must not conflict with having a good time.
Lachlan, make sure you're open to job opportunities that aren't initially in software. When I was 13, a doctor (and close friend of the family) hired me to organize sign-in documents for new patients at his office. While there was no mention of software at the beginning, you better bet that by the end of the summer, I had finished a tool that let patients sign in electronically and invalidated the need for my initial job.
Just don't be dismissive of initially non-software opportunities, especially because those are the types of opportunities you're most likely going to see from family friends (the only people who might be able to hire you at this age).
Just don't be dismissive of initially non-software opportunities, especially because those are the types of opportunities you're most likely going to see from family friends (the only people who might be able to hire you at this age).
Just wanted to second what Andrew is saying here.
In my experience, the most valuable knowledge in software (unless you're in the elite crew of coders) is domain knowledge - the ability to bridge the "functional" or "business" needs with the software that can automate/improve/innovate in that space.
You can be a mediocre coder and bring incredible value to a team by knowing the domain very well.
You only get this kind of knowledge by studying or living it.
In my experience, the most valuable knowledge in software (unless you're in the elite crew of coders) is domain knowledge - the ability to bridge the "functional" or "business" needs with the software that can automate/improve/innovate in that space.
You can be a mediocre coder and bring incredible value to a team by knowing the domain very well.
You only get this kind of knowledge by studying or living it.
No US company can legally hire you. The only exception I know of is working for your parents.
http://www.youthrules.dol.gov/know-the-limits/under14.htm
You can legally work as a computer programmer once you are 14, but there are strict restrictions on the number of hours you are able to work.
http://www.youthrules.dol.gov/know-the-limits/under14.htm
You can legally work as a computer programmer once you are 14, but there are strict restrictions on the number of hours you are able to work.
Honestly, what's the point of you having an internship right now? You'll have plenty of time to get work experience. More importantly, you are already far ahead of the game. The apps you've built show not just an impressive range of programming/design knowledge, but more importantly, knowledge of purpose -- why we build things, why we do things --...which is something 23-year-olds often lack, nevermind 13-year-olds.
You seem to have your own DIY-initiative and an ability to learn independently and execute. It seems like an internship would add little to that, and at the same time, there's the opportunity cost: what would you have built on your own outside of that structured internship time?
(nevermind the risk of burning out early, and regretting not having a more carefree adolescence)
You seem to have your own DIY-initiative and an ability to learn independently and execute. It seems like an internship would add little to that, and at the same time, there's the opportunity cost: what would you have built on your own outside of that structured internship time?
(nevermind the risk of burning out early, and regretting not having a more carefree adolescence)
I don't think we could get you an internship due to liability mentioned in other comments in this thread, but I'm from NYC and also started looking for internships around that age so I am familiar with your challenge.
The first time I had an internship the person I was working for insisted on calling my mom when I showed up because he didn't know how young I was haha. One place you might be able to have success is Eyebeam http://eyebeam.org/ I did an internship there when I was in college, but as a non-profit learning center I think they might be more likely to have something for you, check em out. You might also try contacting the High School for Engineering http://www.afsenyc.org/ and see if they know of anything or have any opportunities.
Also, if you'd ever like advice about working/interning in the NYC tech scene (or programming in general) feel free to email me, contact info in profile.
The first time I had an internship the person I was working for insisted on calling my mom when I showed up because he didn't know how young I was haha. One place you might be able to have success is Eyebeam http://eyebeam.org/ I did an internship there when I was in college, but as a non-profit learning center I think they might be more likely to have something for you, check em out. You might also try contacting the High School for Engineering http://www.afsenyc.org/ and see if they know of anything or have any opportunities.
Also, if you'd ever like advice about working/interning in the NYC tech scene (or programming in general) feel free to email me, contact info in profile.
It's going to be hard to find someone to trust you. Going into the office, people are going to treat you like a 13 year old and expect you to do boring stuff, because they can glance at your work and tell if you're doing it correctly - or at least the way you want them to.
On the internet, no one knows your web server is running lisp. On the internet, no one knows you are 13. Refuse to do video calls, but be super responsive to email and IMs. You'll miss out on jobs, but there are a zillion out there.
I'd suggest, you build something you want. You're in a unique position to spend years building something amazing, that could make you some money. Work is essentially building someone else's dream. If your dream and their dream align, it's great. But for most people, most of the time, work sucks.
Heck, blog about react techniques. make awesome tutorials. I'm 3x your age and just started learning how to make minecraft mods. I'd suggest that, not because you're 13, but because it's kind of cool.
On the internet, no one knows your web server is running lisp. On the internet, no one knows you are 13. Refuse to do video calls, but be super responsive to email and IMs. You'll miss out on jobs, but there are a zillion out there.
I'd suggest, you build something you want. You're in a unique position to spend years building something amazing, that could make you some money. Work is essentially building someone else's dream. If your dream and their dream align, it's great. But for most people, most of the time, work sucks.
Heck, blog about react techniques. make awesome tutorials. I'm 3x your age and just started learning how to make minecraft mods. I'd suggest that, not because you're 13, but because it's kind of cool.
That’s definitely true, jfoutz. I built Noodles because I wanted to, and I’m thinking about some more projects I might take on personally.
I’m also going to try and start writing tutorials to make learning things less painful for new folks, because with more recent frameworks like React there just aren’t a ton of articles out there yet.
Thanks!
I’m also going to try and start writing tutorials to make learning things less painful for new folks, because with more recent frameworks like React there just aren’t a ton of articles out there yet.
Thanks!
Once you get to college, you're going to realize that you'll never have a vacation like you did when you were young. Real life starts and it never ends until you die.
Spend your summer doing something that you love. If that's coding, do that, and don't worry about getting paid for it yet. Also don't worry about building your resume -- you can start doing that when you're 14, if your heart is really set on it.
No one looks back on their life and thinks, "I wish I'd spent more summers working when I was a teenager." If they're lucky, instead they'll think, "I wish I could go back to those summers and really appreciate them for what they were: the last time I really didn't have to worry about anything."
For some perspective, I worked for software companies as a teenager and it hasn't helped me at all in my career. It wasn't worth the time, although having money was nice. But I don't remember the money now or what I did with it.
Spend your summer doing something that you love. If that's coding, do that, and don't worry about getting paid for it yet. Also don't worry about building your resume -- you can start doing that when you're 14, if your heart is really set on it.
No one looks back on their life and thinks, "I wish I'd spent more summers working when I was a teenager." If they're lucky, instead they'll think, "I wish I could go back to those summers and really appreciate them for what they were: the last time I really didn't have to worry about anything."
For some perspective, I worked for software companies as a teenager and it hasn't helped me at all in my career. It wasn't worth the time, although having money was nice. But I don't remember the money now or what I did with it.
Counter-perspective: I do wish I'd spent more summers working in software. Going to camp and doing regular kid things made me miserable. Working for software companies as a teenager absolutely helped me in my career, and it was absolutely worth the time.
Thanks for your perspective.
I guess I'll add this to my own comment: working at a real job as a teenager isn't going to make or break his career. He's a smart and driven kid, just as you seem to have been. If he enjoys coding more than socializing or traveling or whatever, he should certainly code, but he's already well beyond his peers (and always will be).
It's just very different to work on your own stuff at your own pace vs. working for a boss. I also suspect completing more of his own projects would actually be better for his career than whatever a company would allow him to do.
I guess I'll add this to my own comment: working at a real job as a teenager isn't going to make or break his career. He's a smart and driven kid, just as you seem to have been. If he enjoys coding more than socializing or traveling or whatever, he should certainly code, but he's already well beyond his peers (and always will be).
It's just very different to work on your own stuff at your own pace vs. working for a boss. I also suspect completing more of his own projects would actually be better for his career than whatever a company would allow him to do.
This. I'd suggest making his own stuff instead of getting into an internship, maybe building some small apps he could even charge for and make some side money. Start at 13 and build enough of those, and he might never need a job. I wish I'd done something like that in college, when I had plenty of free time.
Plus, that was what always impressed the most during job interviews. I was generally one of the top prospects in the interviews I did -- not because of my GPA, or the school I went to, or past job experience, but because of some of the interesting projects I'd done either on my own or to help out my father with his businesses. It shows not just skill (which lots of other people have, even if it might be a bit less than you) but ambition and drive (which, it seems, not many others have).
Plus, that was what always impressed the most during job interviews. I was generally one of the top prospects in the interviews I did -- not because of my GPA, or the school I went to, or past job experience, but because of some of the interesting projects I'd done either on my own or to help out my father with his businesses. It shows not just skill (which lots of other people have, even if it might be a bit less than you) but ambition and drive (which, it seems, not many others have).
> It's just very different to work on your own stuff at your own pace vs. working for a boss. I also suspect completing more of his own projects would actually be better for his career than whatever a company would allow him to do.
Which is exactly why I'd suggest working for someone if that's what he's into. Working with other engineers will give you a real sense of engineering standards, give you a sense of how to work on teams, help you set a reasonable pace etc. In a lot of ways at that stage in life your boss is much closer to a mentor/coach.
I would not suggest he does contract work, but instead finds a group of people who are interested in teaching and mentoring. I think we are comparing different outcomes in that sense.
Which is exactly why I'd suggest working for someone if that's what he's into. Working with other engineers will give you a real sense of engineering standards, give you a sense of how to work on teams, help you set a reasonable pace etc. In a lot of ways at that stage in life your boss is much closer to a mentor/coach.
I would not suggest he does contract work, but instead finds a group of people who are interested in teaching and mentoring. I think we are comparing different outcomes in that sense.
This is a great point. But maybe it's possible to strike a balance? No teenager likes being told they can't or shouldn't pursue their dreams.
Plus, with this drive and ambition his company might IPO when he's 18 and then he can retire and spend the rest of his life living the good life.
Plus, with this drive and ambition his company might IPO when he's 18 and then he can retire and spend the rest of his life living the good life.
If you work hard and achieve succss early in life, you can take long vacations for the ret of your life.
The real issue is that some people have a postiive attitude adn enjoy what they do, and some people live their life regretting everything they didn't do and not appreciating what they do.
The real issue is that some people have a postiive attitude adn enjoy what they do, and some people live their life regretting everything they didn't do and not appreciating what they do.
Nothing I'm recommending will prevent him from succeeding wildly and retiring early.
I started professionally when I was about your age. But back then internships were a very different thing. And so were startups and large companies to be honest. Unfortunately most of the large companies I have worked for have rules about hiring or even having people younger than 18 on premise for work purposes due to insurance and liability reasons. Many of the start ups would not hire anyone under 21. They state it is for the insurance and liability reasons but in actuality it is due to the fact that many have a "beer fridge" or go out drinking quite a bit and do not want the liability of an under aged employees.
With that said, there is hope. First off, many companies are lax in their HR departments and you might just slip through if you have the right connections. This means hustling as has been suggested: getting emails for employees, showing them your ambition and character and drive, and getting a foot in the door. This may turn into a frustrating endeavor as you might be rejected a few times, but it could work with perseverance.
Second, what makes you think you need an internship at all? You have skills, start something yourself. Maybe you want to freelance for a while, this could make for a lucrative summer experience and you will learn amazing skills that will stick with you the rest of your life. Maybe you have another app you'd like to build and grow. Again, this would be a fantastic learning experience.
With that said, there is hope. First off, many companies are lax in their HR departments and you might just slip through if you have the right connections. This means hustling as has been suggested: getting emails for employees, showing them your ambition and character and drive, and getting a foot in the door. This may turn into a frustrating endeavor as you might be rejected a few times, but it could work with perseverance.
Second, what makes you think you need an internship at all? You have skills, start something yourself. Maybe you want to freelance for a while, this could make for a lucrative summer experience and you will learn amazing skills that will stick with you the rest of your life. Maybe you have another app you'd like to build and grow. Again, this would be a fantastic learning experience.
No one is going to publicly solicit someone as young as you. If you really want to find work, you're going to have to hustle for it. Start tracking down emails and contacting people personally.
Surely someone will appreciate your ambition and give you an opportunity, just don't expect it to fall into your lap. No one is listing internships with the expectation that someone pre-college will fill the opening but don't let that deter you. I say this as someone who landed an internship at 17.
Surely someone will appreciate your ambition and give you an opportunity, just don't expect it to fall into your lap. No one is listing internships with the expectation that someone pre-college will fill the opening but don't let that deter you. I say this as someone who landed an internship at 17.
Don't go around asking companies to do something illegal for you. I agree that hustling is good, but not when you put the burden of your success on someone else.
Working on projects with people you meet/know isn’t illegal. Getting a real job would be, but not this :)
If those people are in a company and that company benefits from your work, they could still be breaking laws related to internships and child labor.
Unpaid internships are illegal except under some very restrictive conditions.
That said, these things don't seem to make it to court, so you're probably not risking anything by doing them.
Unpaid internships are illegal except under some very restrictive conditions.
That said, these things don't seem to make it to court, so you're probably not risking anything by doing them.
There doesn't seem to be much in the way of real intership programs for your age group.
However, your resume is super impressive, and you're clearly gifted. I'm going to bet that there will be people who will want to support your ambitions and create an ad-hoc internship for you. So here's my advice:
Treat your internship search like a job search!
Cold-call and cold-email CEOs of NYC-based startups that use Rails or React. Medium-sized and small companies might have an easier time accommodating, but it can't hurt to try bigger companies too just for kicks.
E.g. try this line for cold-calling: "Hi, this is Lachlan. Are you $CEO_NAME at $STARTUP_NAME? Yes? Cool! I'm a 13-year-old middle school student, and I built a web app with Rails and React last year. I'm looking for an internship this summer. I was wondering if that's something you'd consider."
Regarding child labor laws: Businesses with employees tend to already have a lawyer they regularly talk to (for contracts and compliance). They should be able to run the labor law issues by their lawyer for you - maybe you'll have to wait until your 14th birthday, maybe it's possible to structure it as a "trainee" program that falls under different laws, maybe something else. So I'd just bring this issue to their attention and leave it up to them to figure it out.
However, your resume is super impressive, and you're clearly gifted. I'm going to bet that there will be people who will want to support your ambitions and create an ad-hoc internship for you. So here's my advice:
Treat your internship search like a job search!
Cold-call and cold-email CEOs of NYC-based startups that use Rails or React. Medium-sized and small companies might have an easier time accommodating, but it can't hurt to try bigger companies too just for kicks.
E.g. try this line for cold-calling: "Hi, this is Lachlan. Are you $CEO_NAME at $STARTUP_NAME? Yes? Cool! I'm a 13-year-old middle school student, and I built a web app with Rails and React last year. I'm looking for an internship this summer. I was wondering if that's something you'd consider."
Regarding child labor laws: Businesses with employees tend to already have a lawyer they regularly talk to (for contracts and compliance). They should be able to run the labor law issues by their lawyer for you - maybe you'll have to wait until your 14th birthday, maybe it's possible to structure it as a "trainee" program that falls under different laws, maybe something else. So I'd just bring this issue to their attention and leave it up to them to figure it out.
Thanks joliss! That sounds great — I’m going to look around on StackShare and find some interesting companies.
About the labor laws: I’ll be turning 14 right before the internship could start (at the end of the school year), but that’s definitely true.
About the labor laws: I’ll be turning 14 right before the internship could start (at the end of the school year), but that’s definitely true.
[I am not a lawyer]
In the United States, Federal labor law limits the employment of children. The restrictions on employing people under age 14 are rather severe and would probably preclude any sort of internship:
http://www.youthrules.dol.gov/know-the-limits/under14.htm
This is probably the summer to work on side projects. Next year the rules allow a far wider range of employment opportunities:
http://www.youthrules.dol.gov/know-the-limits/14-15.htm
The fuller explanation is here:
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs43.htm
Good luck.
In the United States, Federal labor law limits the employment of children. The restrictions on employing people under age 14 are rather severe and would probably preclude any sort of internship:
http://www.youthrules.dol.gov/know-the-limits/under14.htm
This is probably the summer to work on side projects. Next year the rules allow a far wider range of employment opportunities:
http://www.youthrules.dol.gov/know-the-limits/14-15.htm
The fuller explanation is here:
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs43.htm
Good luck.
Thanks for that! I’ll be 14 by the time the internship could start, so it sounds like one could work out in regards to the law.
Hi Lachlan!
I admire your work and ambition. I started my career at your age as well, mostly building websites for friends and family.
As mentioned in previous comments, there are US laws that stand in the way of companies actually hiring you, and nobody wants to break the law.
It might be a good idea for you and your parents to look up what exactly the US laws are that apply to your situation. Some online research might answer that question or you can send a quick note to your family attorney.
If you don't have a family attorney I'd be happy to put you in touch with my attorney, he started coding at your age too and I'm sure he could point you in the right direction.
That will tell you exactly who can and can not hire you and take that hurdle of research out of the negotiation process with potential employers.
After you know the legal details I would start looking in your direct surroundings for opportunities ( friends, family, classmates, classmates' parents, etc ) or with smaller companies that are more flexible to make changes accommodating a minor ( e.g. getting rid of the beer fridge temporarily ).
For example, I run a small engineering studio in Los Angeles, it would be easy for me to get rid of all of our beer compared to a big corporation that might have to make more extensive changes to their offices and have a request like this pass through many layers of corporate bureaucracy.
Good luck!
I admire your work and ambition. I started my career at your age as well, mostly building websites for friends and family.
As mentioned in previous comments, there are US laws that stand in the way of companies actually hiring you, and nobody wants to break the law.
It might be a good idea for you and your parents to look up what exactly the US laws are that apply to your situation. Some online research might answer that question or you can send a quick note to your family attorney.
If you don't have a family attorney I'd be happy to put you in touch with my attorney, he started coding at your age too and I'm sure he could point you in the right direction.
That will tell you exactly who can and can not hire you and take that hurdle of research out of the negotiation process with potential employers.
After you know the legal details I would start looking in your direct surroundings for opportunities ( friends, family, classmates, classmates' parents, etc ) or with smaller companies that are more flexible to make changes accommodating a minor ( e.g. getting rid of the beer fridge temporarily ).
For example, I run a small engineering studio in Los Angeles, it would be easy for me to get rid of all of our beer compared to a big corporation that might have to make more extensive changes to their offices and have a request like this pass through many layers of corporate bureaucracy.
Good luck!
Why not just learn another language like C++, Java, C#, etc, and spend the summer making a video game? Sounds like your skills are mostly web-devy right now. Branch out?
newobj: I’m working on learning other languages/frameworks, but I’m really not interested at all in building or playing video games :)
I would advise continuing to work on skills using the insane amount of online resources available. While also working to build up an open-source profile of side-projects. Side projects not only show that you truly do enjoy developing, but they also provide a great tangible means for exemplifying your skills. You have a great jump on learning these skills but because of your age you will need tangible proof that you have real skill. Because of this I think open-source side projects are a perfect fit. They're fun, hone your skills, and prove you can create (and maintain, document, etc.) a software system.
Oh and I can't agree enough with all the people saying savor the time. I can remember countless days where I was 'bored' stiff all day, while nowadays I find myself dreaming of being able to not have to sleep daily so I could fit in even more hours for projects, both personal and professional.
I firmly believe that as you age your perceived notion of time passing only accelerates.
Oh and I can't agree enough with all the people saying savor the time. I can remember countless days where I was 'bored' stiff all day, while nowadays I find myself dreaming of being able to not have to sleep daily so I could fit in even more hours for projects, both personal and professional.
I firmly believe that as you age your perceived notion of time passing only accelerates.
Have your parent or guardian create a profile on odesk.com and just get to work bidding on jobs within your skillset. Undercharge and knock them out of the park. Your terrific reputation will allow you to start receiving more work and build a brand. Perhaps one day you will be able to hire a freelancer to assist you in the monthly thread.
Why do you want to do an internship?
If it is because you like programming, I don't think anyone is going to hire you for a few years. Why don't you do a few projects on your own and see what you can come up with?
If it is because you're turning prematurely preprofessional, for god's sake enjoy your childhood. Go to a pond and skip stones on the water.
If it is because you like programming, I don't think anyone is going to hire you for a few years. Why don't you do a few projects on your own and see what you can come up with?
If it is because you're turning prematurely preprofessional, for god's sake enjoy your childhood. Go to a pond and skip stones on the water.
Indeed, the best thing to do is to spend your time engaging in activities that someone else things is fun, instead of what you enjoy.
I already included in my answer the option that he genuinely enjoys programming, in which case he should self-start projects.
You'd be surprised, however, at the amount of kids who go "professional" from a very early age because of parental pressure or something like that. All I said was that if that is the case, it is too early to go professional.
You'd be surprised, however, at the amount of kids who go "professional" from a very early age because of parental pressure or something like that. All I said was that if that is the case, it is too early to go professional.
littletimmy: It’s not at all driven by my parents. I’m doing it only because I love it.
On self-started projects: Noodles was my first of them, and I’m working on some more. Side projects are great, but right now I’m looking for something bigger.
On self-started projects: Noodles was my first of them, and I’m working on some more. Side projects are great, but right now I’m looking for something bigger.
I would ask you why you're looking for an internship.
If it's for the cash, as people have mentioned, you're going to have a tough time due to legal issues.
If you're just interested in getting more experience, I would try to find a mentor who could recommend potentially interesting projects to work on. There are a bunch of interesting computing technologies that are becoming more and more accessible to use (e.g. image recognition, NLP, machine learning, augmented/virtual reality, etc), and I think there are a lot more exciting things to do than work on yet another webapp.
Personally I spent ages 14+ learning how to hack websites and web browsers, and I found that to be a lot of fun, but there are piles of other things to get excited about. If you want some cash, companies will pay bug bounties to people as young as 13 for finding security vulnerabilities in their websites (see: HackerOne etc).
If it's for the cash, as people have mentioned, you're going to have a tough time due to legal issues.
If you're just interested in getting more experience, I would try to find a mentor who could recommend potentially interesting projects to work on. There are a bunch of interesting computing technologies that are becoming more and more accessible to use (e.g. image recognition, NLP, machine learning, augmented/virtual reality, etc), and I think there are a lot more exciting things to do than work on yet another webapp.
Personally I spent ages 14+ learning how to hack websites and web browsers, and I found that to be a lot of fun, but there are piles of other things to get excited about. If you want some cash, companies will pay bug bounties to people as young as 13 for finding security vulnerabilities in their websites (see: HackerOne etc).
It’s not for the cash — I’m not even concerned that I’ll get paid at all. I more want it because endlessly building things on your own isn’t as challenging or as much fun as being with a team for a little while. I’d also like to meet some more new people along the way.
On security: I’ve emailed several companies about security bugs on their websites, but I hadn’t considered being paid for it. I’ll check that out!
Thanks.
On security: I’ve emailed several companies about security bugs on their websites, but I hadn’t considered being paid for it. I’ll check that out!
Thanks.
Email me ([email protected]) sometime if you want to chat about web security stuff. I'm 17 years old and I tend to spend my free time working on bug bounties etc. I can certainly give you some pointers on this sort of thing.
If you're interested in working on larger projects, you should look into contributing to open source projects.
I really doubt you will find anything at your age but there are lots of opportunities to do cool stuff.
You can always look for really popular websites that need a total redo. Try buying a horse trailer or a horse and the horrific sites that await you are a world of opportunity to replace. Examples: http://www.horsetrailerworld.com/ http://www.dreamhorse.com/
Hard to believe after 15 years those sites haven't changed and are still some of the most popular equine sites around.
Not any real money to be made in this but someone needs to fix this mess.
I'm sure there are dozens of other types of sites like this but these are two I'm familiar with.
You can always look for really popular websites that need a total redo. Try buying a horse trailer or a horse and the horrific sites that await you are a world of opportunity to replace. Examples: http://www.horsetrailerworld.com/ http://www.dreamhorse.com/
Hard to believe after 15 years those sites haven't changed and are still some of the most popular equine sites around.
Not any real money to be made in this but someone needs to fix this mess.
I'm sure there are dozens of other types of sites like this but these are two I'm familiar with.
As someone who was once in a similar position:
- Due to child labor laws it might be an uphill battle.
- If no one will give you am internship you can try and join a bigger open source project.
- If all fails I'll happily not give you an intership and not have you working with robotics aimed software. Remote though. ;)
- Due to child labor laws it might be an uphill battle.
- If no one will give you am internship you can try and join a bigger open source project.
- If all fails I'll happily not give you an intership and not have you working with robotics aimed software. Remote though. ;)
How about taking an online course this summer instead of an internship (Coursera's machine learning would probably be a very big project depending on your current level of math or the MIT SICP lectures & book to start learning CS/functional programming)?
The path to mastery is mostly self learning in my limited experience in software so far, so the earlier you learn that and build the skills to learn on your own the better off you will be. Learning on your own without a teacher, grades, mentor, or internship will prepare you more for the real world than most college students.
The path to mastery is mostly self learning in my limited experience in software so far, so the earlier you learn that and build the skills to learn on your own the better off you will be. Learning on your own without a teacher, grades, mentor, or internship will prepare you more for the real world than most college students.
Getting an internship at 13 can be difficult, but not impossible. Here's my advice from my experience coming to NYC for an internship while in HS:
- Try your hardest, and don't let anyone tell you you can't.
- Figure out if there are any employment laws that could affect you working somewhere.
- Don't tell people how old you are, until it's absolutely necessary (legally), let them judge you on your skillset and portfolio
- Ignore their requirements. Apply and ask for the position anyways!
- Try your hardest, and don't let anyone tell you you can't.
- Figure out if there are any employment laws that could affect you working somewhere.
- Don't tell people how old you are, until it's absolutely necessary (legally), let them judge you on your skillset and portfolio
- Ignore their requirements. Apply and ask for the position anyways!
👍 Thanks sodevious!
Hi,
I don't know the legal ages in the US, but in Europe you can't take work officially below 16. What I recommend is rather to make contact with the leaders of some serious open-source project you like and contribute. You gain some fame and get in touch some people who will happy to take their company bounty to recruit you later. :)
PS: it is just wording, but you probably looking for a apprenticeship, not an internship if you are looking for a formal work.
I don't know the legal ages in the US, but in Europe you can't take work officially below 16. What I recommend is rather to make contact with the leaders of some serious open-source project you like and contribute. You gain some fame and get in touch some people who will happy to take their company bounty to recruit you later. :)
PS: it is just wording, but you probably looking for a apprenticeship, not an internship if you are looking for a formal work.
While US Law and I am guessing the laws in many other countries may prevent you from working for a company not owned by immediate family if you really want to get some experience in I would recommend looking into contributing to an open source project. OSS contributions look great on a resume, get you real world experience and contributions are judged based on the quality of the code, not the age of the coder.
Some of the answers saying you can't be employed at your age are not necessarily true. I'm a couple of years older than you but what you can do is to structure your employment in such a way that you are an independent contractor and your employers compensate you for your services. This way you would be self-employed and not subject to the relevant employment laws in your region.
Contribute to an open source project. Drupal has had serious, valued contributors as young as nine and ten. One of them, Dmitri Gaskin, keynoted a Drupal conference where he talked about his experiences as a contributor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMJCOViG0jE
ksenzee: Nice! I spend a ton of time working on open-source projects over Assembly: http://assembly.com/. Thanks for the suggestion.
What others have mentioned - it's really hard to hire a 14 year old legally. Maybe try contributing to an open source project?
You can't really legally work anywhere at 13/14 -- I would totally recommend involving yourself with open source communities, joining a hackerspace, or looking for tech-related non-profit organizations that are interested in volunteers. Google Summer of Code might be a good option for you!
Not sure about US law but I believe it is illegal for someone so young to do full time white collar work in AU.
You gotta know someone. Like parent's friend, relative or something like that. At age 13 that is pretty much the only way. Hell, it was how I got my IBM internship at age 18.
Alternatively you could do this: https://www.recurse.com
Google summer of code would have been a good option, and definitely a great option for next year though.
By the way, I will be 14 once an internship would start. This opens up the child labor laws a lot.
Lie about your age and work online.
This is a very, very bad idea in the US. As a 13-year-old, you can't legally sign a contract, and that has serious implications for both parties as well as your parents.
Edit: comment below is correct, please disregard what I said (although it's still a very bad idea to trick people into signing a contract with you).
Edit: comment below is correct, please disregard what I said (although it's still a very bad idea to trick people into signing a contract with you).
> As a 13-year-old, you can't legally sign a contract, and that has serious implications for both parties as well as your parents.
That's not generally true, in US jurisdictions; minors can legally enter into contracts, but contracts with minors outside of certain limits are generally voidable at the option of the minor. And a number of states have additional rules which provide conditions which allow some contracts of minors which would otherwise be voidable to be binding if certain procedural steps are taken.
That's not generally true, in US jurisdictions; minors can legally enter into contracts, but contracts with minors outside of certain limits are generally voidable at the option of the minor. And a number of states have additional rules which provide conditions which allow some contracts of minors which would otherwise be voidable to be binding if certain procedural steps are taken.
That's not getting the kid off to a good start, lying to get in. Not good at all.
Hey Lachlan,
I'm a 19-year-old software engineer for Barracuda Networks. When I was about your age, I was very interested in programming and computers as well. :) (You can actually find screenshots all the way back to the very embarrassing beginning where I tried to figure out how fonts + iframes worked here: http://www.screenshots.com/ghostlypets.com/2005-12-15)
Like you, I spent a lot of time wishing I could just "be at MIT already" or "just get hired to do some work." As most people have said here, however, in the US, you can't legally be hired, as much as this sucks.
However, you should check whether the high school you're soon to be attending has a FIRST Robotics program. You'll get to work on a team, similar to a small startup company, to build a robot (and a website, and a business plan, etc.)
Additionally, one thing that I found was pretty helpful to me was to find some small niches that needed devs (when I started, I used virtual pet sites as this niche, being a Neopets fan, and later moved to Bitcoin when that got popular.)
I got recruited when I was 18 because the company saw me on LinkedIn, saw my Github, and was already interested in me. It was awesome. I'm glad I'm here, it's what I always wanted. But I also have less time to work on "side projects" (i.e. the type of projects you get to work on right now), which means less time to learn what I want to learn and more time to learn what the company needs.
So my advice to you would be to find some niches you're particularly interested in and explore them to the fullest extent you can. Learn multiple languages, learn multiple paradigms, learn multiple architectures.
The web and computers are more complex now than they were when I was young, and they are going to continue to get more complex. The more abstractions you create, the more there is to learn in the entire field of programming. But when you get into a business role, you have to focus on what makes something work, rather than what's new, what's interesting, or what you don't already know. Now is the time to keep doing that sort of thing, and figure out what you really like about programming.
P.S. Looking at you and your friend's sites and blogs, you are the kind of devs companies will be trying to hire. :) When I was young I spent a lot of my time "looking up" to a lot of devs with jobs. Having a job isn't the end-all-be-all to being a dev. It's not even close. There is so much to learn, and so much to do, that nobody will ever be a "better" dev than another. Just stronger knowledge in certain areas. :)
P.P.S. I focused too much on web dev when I was young. You can learn a lot about languages, and it's awesome because you get immediate results. But frameworks like Rails provide a lot of abstractions, and if you want to learn the core concepts behind computer science, using them isn't the best way to learn. Try writing your own framework, try writing a game (command-line if graphics is too daunting). You'll learn algorithms, data structures, and paradigms. That's the type of thing that translates between languages. :)
I'm a 19-year-old software engineer for Barracuda Networks. When I was about your age, I was very interested in programming and computers as well. :) (You can actually find screenshots all the way back to the very embarrassing beginning where I tried to figure out how fonts + iframes worked here: http://www.screenshots.com/ghostlypets.com/2005-12-15)
Like you, I spent a lot of time wishing I could just "be at MIT already" or "just get hired to do some work." As most people have said here, however, in the US, you can't legally be hired, as much as this sucks.
However, you should check whether the high school you're soon to be attending has a FIRST Robotics program. You'll get to work on a team, similar to a small startup company, to build a robot (and a website, and a business plan, etc.)
Additionally, one thing that I found was pretty helpful to me was to find some small niches that needed devs (when I started, I used virtual pet sites as this niche, being a Neopets fan, and later moved to Bitcoin when that got popular.)
I got recruited when I was 18 because the company saw me on LinkedIn, saw my Github, and was already interested in me. It was awesome. I'm glad I'm here, it's what I always wanted. But I also have less time to work on "side projects" (i.e. the type of projects you get to work on right now), which means less time to learn what I want to learn and more time to learn what the company needs.
So my advice to you would be to find some niches you're particularly interested in and explore them to the fullest extent you can. Learn multiple languages, learn multiple paradigms, learn multiple architectures.
The web and computers are more complex now than they were when I was young, and they are going to continue to get more complex. The more abstractions you create, the more there is to learn in the entire field of programming. But when you get into a business role, you have to focus on what makes something work, rather than what's new, what's interesting, or what you don't already know. Now is the time to keep doing that sort of thing, and figure out what you really like about programming.
P.S. Looking at you and your friend's sites and blogs, you are the kind of devs companies will be trying to hire. :) When I was young I spent a lot of my time "looking up" to a lot of devs with jobs. Having a job isn't the end-all-be-all to being a dev. It's not even close. There is so much to learn, and so much to do, that nobody will ever be a "better" dev than another. Just stronger knowledge in certain areas. :)
P.P.S. I focused too much on web dev when I was young. You can learn a lot about languages, and it's awesome because you get immediate results. But frameworks like Rails provide a lot of abstractions, and if you want to learn the core concepts behind computer science, using them isn't the best way to learn. Try writing your own framework, try writing a game (command-line if graphics is too daunting). You'll learn algorithms, data structures, and paradigms. That's the type of thing that translates between languages. :)
Thanks, John! I really appreciate your response; you’ve got a lot of good advice there. I’ll quickly respond here from my phone.
I’m trying to learn some other languages/architectures, and side projects are basically everything I’ve worked on so far. With school in the way it’s hard to find enough time for everything. That’s why I’m trying to find something really interesting to work on this summer.
Also: I looked into those laws a bit and it seems like once I’m 14 (I will be once an internship for me could start), I can work 8 hours/day while school isn’t in session.
I’m trying to learn some other languages/architectures, and side projects are basically everything I’ve worked on so far. With school in the way it’s hard to find enough time for everything. That’s why I’m trying to find something really interesting to work on this summer.
Also: I looked into those laws a bit and it seems like once I’m 14 (I will be once an internship for me could start), I can work 8 hours/day while school isn’t in session.
I'm 16, and I was in your position as well, also at age 13. I think I might be able to give you some perspective.
At 12, I started working on an open-source Ruby gem in a not-so-niche market (would rather not say, might give it away). I (American) had an offer from overseas (Britain) to work on a very small project in Ruby using the gem I created. I got paid about $200 I think, over PayPal. That made me want to start working.
Someone reached out to me right after my 13th birthday, saying they wanted to hire me to work on a Rails application, and their idea seemed good. I got nervous when the guy (whose LinkedIn seemed legit) sent over an NDA, but I figured, how much trouble can a 13-year-old really get in? I didn't even tell my parents. I was basically getting paid to work on my gem, which I would have been doing already - no big deal. After about 2 months, I think the guy caught on to my age or lack of experience, because he told me I had finished what needed to be finished. All in all, I made $3500 for about 60 hours of work.
I continued working on my gem for free after that, and other companies reached out for internships, etc. I turned all but one down, because school had started in the fall, and that turned out to be only two months or so of an unpaid internship. I dabbled in other side projects after that - I was bored of working on the same project for what was now a little over a year.
Imagine my surprise when I come back just 6 months after that, and there are two forks of my gem on GitHub and it's been downloaded 30,000+ times (not even counting the other two forks). And yet, the work offers had dried up. I didn't have a website, no recruiters had my contact information, and I was a little lost on what to do. I volunteered that summer, telling myself that more opportunities would arise.
I haven't worked on that project in months. I'm not sure if I'm burnt out from programming (haven't done much of that recently either), but I'm definitely burnt out from that project. I logged onto RubyGems recently and between the original gem and all the forks of it, it's been downloaded 100k+ times. If I created a blog, and started updating the original gem again, I'm sure I could find some work. But I'm not interested in doing that, and I'm not sure why.
I'm headed off to college in the fall internationally, with less work experience than I would've liked and less money in my pocket, too. I'm not sure what the lesson from my story is, but hopefully it will make you take the "too fast, too soon" ideas to heart. Don't stop coding - if it's what you love. But don't let high school pass you by either (just read that you're actually in middle school). My best memories aren't receiving my checks in the mail or making a résumé or even coding, but the time I spent with my friends.
To answer your question directly, no - I was never successful in finding advertised internships for young people. It was discouraging. I'm probably lucky that guy who paid me for months didn't confront me about my age - I'm not sure what would've happened.
At 12, I started working on an open-source Ruby gem in a not-so-niche market (would rather not say, might give it away). I (American) had an offer from overseas (Britain) to work on a very small project in Ruby using the gem I created. I got paid about $200 I think, over PayPal. That made me want to start working.
Someone reached out to me right after my 13th birthday, saying they wanted to hire me to work on a Rails application, and their idea seemed good. I got nervous when the guy (whose LinkedIn seemed legit) sent over an NDA, but I figured, how much trouble can a 13-year-old really get in? I didn't even tell my parents. I was basically getting paid to work on my gem, which I would have been doing already - no big deal. After about 2 months, I think the guy caught on to my age or lack of experience, because he told me I had finished what needed to be finished. All in all, I made $3500 for about 60 hours of work.
I continued working on my gem for free after that, and other companies reached out for internships, etc. I turned all but one down, because school had started in the fall, and that turned out to be only two months or so of an unpaid internship. I dabbled in other side projects after that - I was bored of working on the same project for what was now a little over a year.
Imagine my surprise when I come back just 6 months after that, and there are two forks of my gem on GitHub and it's been downloaded 30,000+ times (not even counting the other two forks). And yet, the work offers had dried up. I didn't have a website, no recruiters had my contact information, and I was a little lost on what to do. I volunteered that summer, telling myself that more opportunities would arise.
I haven't worked on that project in months. I'm not sure if I'm burnt out from programming (haven't done much of that recently either), but I'm definitely burnt out from that project. I logged onto RubyGems recently and between the original gem and all the forks of it, it's been downloaded 100k+ times. If I created a blog, and started updating the original gem again, I'm sure I could find some work. But I'm not interested in doing that, and I'm not sure why.
I'm headed off to college in the fall internationally, with less work experience than I would've liked and less money in my pocket, too. I'm not sure what the lesson from my story is, but hopefully it will make you take the "too fast, too soon" ideas to heart. Don't stop coding - if it's what you love. But don't let high school pass you by either (just read that you're actually in middle school). My best memories aren't receiving my checks in the mail or making a résumé or even coding, but the time I spent with my friends.
To answer your question directly, no - I was never successful in finding advertised internships for young people. It was discouraging. I'm probably lucky that guy who paid me for months didn't confront me about my age - I'm not sure what would've happened.
Interesting story. I think that while I may not find an internship this summer, I can just work on side projects and keep learning — that can always continue, even if I can’t work with other folks. I really appreciate your story, and interesting perspective!
start your own company!
I’ve been looking for internships this summer at startups/larger companies, but most require having already studied CS in college or something along those lines. Has anyone heard about good internships (most likely in NYC) for this summer?