If this article is correct about limitations, couldn't one simply include a Turing machine model into the process to train algorithms?
Some ideas:
- The vectors are Turing tapes, or
- Each point in a tape is a DNN, or
- The "tape" is actually a "tree" each point in the tape
is actually a branch point of a tree with probabilities going each way, and the DNN model can "prune this tree" to refine the set of "spanning trees" / programs.
Or, hehe, maybe I'm leading people off track. I know absolutely nothing about DNN ( except I remember some classes on gradient descent and SVMs from bioinformatics ).
Yes, democratic political culture is a culture of popular, low risk decisions, and stagnation. This limits how far these countries can develop. The problem with assuming China will reach the same stagnation, is because that outlook is the situation democracies accept as inevitable, because it's the best they've been able to achieve. It doesn't mean that's the best there is. China runs on a different engine. I believe it can go further. I hope it does, because then they've created a new system that we can all learn from. The current results of political rule in western liberal democracies i find disappointing, so i sincerely cheer on the Chinese for doing something different and hope they have created something better in some aspects.
As you point out, the Chinese are expert copiers. What i love about this is that it means they are open to taking the best parts of what's worked, and adapting it themselves. They're pragmatic, and flexible. I love that about them, because that adaptability and openness to achievements of others ( instead of insecurely insisting their existing way is superior ) means they are effective learners, and can effectively make the most of opportunities. So we can say they are simply doing this with policy, politics and governance, to create a new system.
Their risk taking attitude means they can run lots of experiments, different policies in different cities, and learn from the results. Remember tho, their scale didn't just happen. They built a country that big. Also, it's not just about having scale, it's about how skillful the choices you make with what you have, are. Russia and India also possesses scale of d different sorts, but they're not as successful to me as China.
yorwba and I believe different things about propaganda and harmony. I think the gap in beliefs is too much to cover here now. We agree that propos is an effective tool, but I believe it can be put to good and that's what the Chinese do. yorwba views propos cynically, and doesn't see it that way at all. Similarly, i think, differ our beliefs about harmony.
Finally i believe the option, the freedom, to make a bold move is a requirement, for taking care of your citizens well being. If your can't take risks because your political system disincentivizes you from doing so, then you're not not able to serve your citizens well being as much as you could. I don't know how you get around that weakness.
Yes, definitely. Pick up the early FRUiTS books by Phaidon for a great, enlivening and colorful overview of 90s street fashion and youth. These images of creativity are what first got me really interested in traveling to JP.
you want to engage, but I'm not going to right now. thanks anyway. for serious consideration etc.
i realize my comment is a little too extreme even for my own view. i criticize the West very strongly here, and while i don't walk back from any of it -- this comment doesn't express any of the deep love I have for the US.
anyway, this thread is not about me, so I won't bother spilling what the full spectrum of my views are. i'm fine to misrepresent myself to make an important point as I have done: there's so much anti-China propos that Westerners are blind to what they could learn, so a strong pro China stance is required to counter all the anti-China rubbish, also even those "pro China sinophiles" are often blind to the absolute illusory fantasy scale of Western liberal democracy, and so I wanted to combine those two things together in one mega punch hit. :p :) xx
ha. downvotes. a product of a Western liberal republic that doesn't tolerate criticism or dissent, and pretends downvotes are for noise only. i got it.
but truly, this "unpopular" view ought to be upvoted for the good of the West. you learn less from what you insist on telling yourself is stupid or evil.
it's okay. nine_k and i are on "different sides" in view of this. I know nine_k does not want to see it differently. we shall not agree.
but for anyone else who comes across this and is still working out how they feel about this here's a thought experiment:
okay, so you've heard that China is led by selfish autocrats who are evil. now imagine the PRC ruling elite actually does act in the best interests of the Chinese people. just for the sake of the experience, try it on. conceive of the possibility.
next imagine a state that doesn't do that. there's plenty of examples of selfish failed dynastic dictators to pick from. philippines, north korea. we're not even touching on africa. the trajectory is clear. pillaged prosperity.
now look at China's trajectory since Mao kicked the nationalists out. compare to examples of failed single party states.
which type of leadership matches more closely the trajectory of China?
i get if you want to stick to the "evil elite" story. it's easier to dismiss China if you think their leaders are selfish and evil. if you don't live in China, it's more comfortable to deal with envy of their rise by paying yourself off by pretending they're worse in some ways. and if your view is correct, no foul, probably. there probably wasn't anything to learn there anyway, since you were "right" and they were "wrong". you can safely ignore China. but...what if that view wasn't correct? What if they were doing it right? doesn't being blind to that forfeit a chance to be inspired by their achievements and learn from them?
would you entertain the possibility you were mistaken about the leaders? what if you were? what if China is led by people who act in the interests of the Chinese and seek the revival of China? what if they were successful doing it?
maybe you think, well, who cares, it actually it doesn't matter what their motivations are, as long as they deliver. and they sure have delivered growth, prosperity and harmony.
but what if it does matter what their motivations are? what if their motivations their ultimate goal, the cherishing of the Chinese people, is key to their success? I fully understand the painful resistance to anything that is like self-confidence, national pride, or englightened nationalism in a country that is very publicly going through a "dark night of the soul", exposing its self-doubts and self-hatred, equivocation and division for all the world to see. "please don't remind us of anything that looks like shining nationalism that works. don't remind us what we lost!" but, if you really understood the chinese people you'd see that their unity of pride in who they are is really key to who they are becoming, and to their success in this transition.
americans used to be proud of themselves as well. now they're going through their adolescent "low confidence" "self doubt" and "conflict" stage. it's messy. it's not helping their country in obvious ways. but surely the tumult is helping the long term. i'm sure there is a future they can get to where their self confidence and pride in who they are guides them again. but that's probably a very very long way off.
you've got to make up your own mind about what you see about china. i hope my enthusiasm or openness to other points of view has helped you see a bigger picture than the mainstream self-soothing anti-China propaganda, that obscures the truth and doesn't really help anyone -- except to console, for a little while.
but who needs consolation when you get results?
success is a far better consolation than pretending the other side are "bad".
ok, so on to other stuff now. i shall not continue this thread. :);p xx
not assuming anything. just looking at the results. from poverty to riches in 70 years, civil harmony and > 1bn people, clearly the proof the party doesn't know what they're doing.
the truth is the PRC is ruled by technocratic geniuses. Even their critics admit as much. most of them are engineers. you SV Cali republic folks ought to be eyeing this as a model of development + progress can be done right at scale.
but i get there's years of propaganda to see through to get to that point.
Actually, that's "not a bug it's a feature (#wontfix)" of democracy. But also democracy's weakness.
Democracies can't take deterministic stances for the long term good of their people and because any clear deterministic stance about the future can be ridiculed and criticised, and thus a democracy can't execute an effective long term plan for rapid progress and development, and naturally wallows in stagnation. The people are effectively distracted and their frustrations channelled into the cathartic release of futile voting, while they are seduced by the delusion that they have actual power, when democracy is simply an effective means for social control to maintain a status quo. Democracies are not meant to take deterministic stances, to do so would upset the status quo and social control equilibrium that democratic theatre protects through its elaborate stage craft of "universal suffrage".
A technocratic-governed advanced society like China, can afford to make long term bets and bold moves for the good of its people, and thus in my view better deserves the mantle of caring for its citizens wellbeing.
Western states and their citizens sooth themselves with the fake payoff of pretending they are "morally superior" to countries like China by chanting denouncements of "human rights", which simply better distracts these Westerners from how their own governing system effectively short-changes them and swaps development growth and prosperity, for "harmony" -- but how harmonious is that currently? Probably the only reason people in Western "liberal democracies" don't revolt is because they are given the effective catharsis of "self determination" by voting every couple of years: a way to run around in the park, let off steam, cool off their hot heads. Democratic theatre is meant to enchant, distract and beguile the audience, so people obsess over basically meaningless differences, exaggerated only for dramatic effect to keep the audience spellbound. An exercise in collective suspension of belief. While society and economies stagnate.
China can better care for its citizens because it can relentlessly pursue long term benefits and greater goods over short term gains, status quo and special interests. 5 year plans by the ruling elites have yielded seventy years of incredible economic growth. Westerns will at this point console themselves at their lackluster performance in comparison by pretending that "China is bad" because of the blood that was shed to bring the current peace and stability.
Has it ever occurred to you that as much as China maybe feigns affront at your human rights criticisms, perhaps it also conceals a chuckle and is glad you distract yourselves thus with such concerns, while their economic grows and yours stagnates, while your politicians bicker and theirs act?
Westerners will at this point console themselves that "China is bad" by making comments about the blood that was shed by Mao, and so on...
A very effective defensive strategy at learning from the competition and insulation from introspection is to cocoon yourselves inside a shell of pretend "moral superiority" and pretending those that exceed you are actually less than you...don't any of you begin to feel that the brainwashing and propaganda to sustain such a state of non-introspection is very skillful?
China skilfully deploys propaganda and mass deception as well, but to what end? To the end of the benefit of the people, economic growth, and civil harmony. What better way to deliver on their responsibility to their people than take care of them? Are your governments delivering on their responsibilities to you?
Liu Xiaobo was a moron, elevated beyond his merit by a bitter and myopic award committee, bent on rewarding anything that would perpetuate a fading dream of Western supremacy -- cue the award to an internal critic of China. He advocated the Westernization of China. China will do better to continue inventing its own system rather than mimicking a Western one. Of course ignorant Westerners support such a dissident wholesale, but they only have to look at the relative consequences of a Chinese model vs a Western model to see the results: growth and stability vs stagnation and division. He's not a patriot, he's someone who hates China and the qualities that made it great: its culture, its people, its single party rule. He has no love for China, only hate, despite what the lies in SCMP say. He's a political actor, and not soon enough gone, for the good of China.
I currently consider this broken since, turns out that XOR and permutation do not commute over each other, and anyway to get them do so so requires knowledge of the secrets to be transmitted in a way to the channel that lets attacks recover them.
The need for XOR can be removed, but then each half of the AONT(message) is exposed. I couldn't see a way around this. So even tho I'm sure there is a way to construct a secret exchange on insecure channel mechanism (probably using 3 pass) I do not see it right now.
This probably has a big hole in it that I missed. But I just feel there must be some way to make a PK cryptosystem using Chinese Remainder Theorem. And I've found it in this one way at least.
I'm somewhat concerned this is simply the (already broken) Knapsack PK cryptosystem, but I don't know enough about that to say if it's different or not, essentially. Anyway, I know this community is not totally deep into reviewing crypto from random people, but I'm putting it out here as a record and in case anyone sees a hole the care to point out. Thanks!
Sure.....but then I think everyone ought to be able to down vote. Or only the mods. If it's a tool, it's either a tool for all, or a tool only wielded by the ones who define community standards, work to enforce them and act basically objectively in line with those principles anyway.
If it's not that objective tool, then it's a tool for everyone to wield subjectively. That's what I'd prefer.
I know others may feel differently. This is how I feel about it.
Oh no I didn't mean it in a retaliatory sense specifically, I meant it like everyone having the option to do it, or no one except the few ( the mods? the ones who have objective standards ) having the options.
I meant like they can downvote me, and I can't downvote them, or anyone, at any time, because I don't have that whatever the requirement is ( mod level, karma level ) yet...so it's like this asymmetry that doesn't exist in the real world.
I don't feel any restriction talking to any human in real life. Nothing they can do to me I can't do back to them. So it's balanced. I'm safe. We're equal. I understand other people may feel differently, this is how I feel.
But on HN, I can't downvote. So there's this asymmetry. To me, it's a perversion. Because in the real world, only the State has a monopoly on legal violence. Only the state can use violence, legally. But on HN, downvotes don't only come from mods or police, they come from whoever has accrued sufficient karma -- and I don't equate this with a sort of objective, regulated, principle-based State level power.
So the state has a (correct, IMO) asymmetric monopoly on legal violence and can dish it out to people as it sees fit, but people cannot do the same, without either expecting to get the same in self-defense, or getting consequences from the state. But on HN, any random Jo with enough karma has the analogous asymmetry power.
That's what I meant. It's not necessarily about retaliating, it's about having that option on the table, rather than some people having it and others not having it.
Or no one having it except the State ( the mods, I guess ).
Yeah, when you talk and track people's facial expressions in real time, you can see which particular things they disagree with, so you have useful feedback. A down vote is sort of like someone running up behind you and king hitting you, for something you said in some other group earlier, and maybe you don't know why. It's not always so non-specific...but not being able to respond to a downvote...makes it an incredibly potent tool to control discourse.
It's a nice community-supporting sentiment but I think the idea that such a powerful tool as a down vote is only used for noble purposes, rather than to condemn and silence dissent or as an "easy out" substitute instead of a comment for something one disagrees with, is a fiction. Am I saying all downvotes are tools of censorship and punishment of diversity? No. But I feel down votes are powerful tools, and to me the idea that they are only used for good, while noble and community supporting, is naive.
So from the point of view that considers down votes something of a problem, what solution do I see? Nothing really conclusive. I think a step in the right direction is if downvotes only affected the comment they pertained to, and not overall reputation -- then I'd feel a lot more free.
Some ideas:
- The vectors are Turing tapes, or
- Each point in a tape is a DNN, or
- The "tape" is actually a "tree" each point in the tape is actually a branch point of a tree with probabilities going each way, and the DNN model can "prune this tree" to refine the set of "spanning trees" / programs.
Or, hehe, maybe I'm leading people off track. I know absolutely nothing about DNN ( except I remember some classes on gradient descent and SVMs from bioinformatics ).