The Advanced Placement Juggernaut(roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com)
roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com
The Advanced Placement Juggernaut
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/20/the-advanced-placement-juggernaut/
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Not sure if it was the norm but the AP classes in my high school just gave more homework, nothing more challenging nor deeper into the subject matter, just a greater volume. That approach doesn't seem that helpful to me. Hopefully others experienced it differently.
That's odd, because my AP experience was exactly the opposite. While I did have more homework in AP Literature, the homework was meaningful, personal, and founded on the cumulative knowledge attained over the course. On the other hand, in my AP Statistics class, the homework hardly counted at all while the emphasis was on the tests (which I feel is appropriate for the subject). In my ordinary classes the homework was boring, redundant and even comical at times.
I think the general trend of AP classes is to focus on getting people passing grades on the exam, and this hurts the ability of the class to explore into other topics, or doing things that would not contribute greatly to that specific goal. English essays would be formulaic, and my history class was constant timed practice exams and formulaic essay writing. If I remember correctly, some of my teachers complained about not being able to explore off-topic.
I should note that lately I've discovered that my experience in AP Lit was highly unconventional.
It seems they should start 'advanced placement' much much earlier than high school.
A modular design to education with students mastering skill sets instead of growing older to 'move through the ranks' would allow students to always remain around their educational peers regardless of age, allow bright students to excel, and maintain support for those struggling.
A modular design to education with students mastering skill sets instead of growing older to 'move through the ranks' would allow students to always remain around their educational peers regardless of age, allow bright students to excel, and maintain support for those struggling.
A modular design to education with students mastering skill sets instead of growing older to 'move through the ranks' would allow students to always remain around their educational peers regardless of age, allow bright students to excel, and maintain support for those struggling.
Yes. There is no particular reason why students should be kept in lockstep by age in school. Schools were once organized differently.
http://learninfreedom.org/age_grading_bad.html
Yes. There is no particular reason why students should be kept in lockstep by age in school. Schools were once organized differently.
http://learninfreedom.org/age_grading_bad.html
Scroll down a little to Philip M. Sadler and you will see a great example of cognitive dissonance.
Many had passed the A.P. exam, but had either been advised to take the college course as a way to deepen their knowledge or had to because their exam score did not meet departmental requirements. This group gave us an opportunity to see how A.P. students fared in college science, since passing an A.P. exam is presumed to mean that they had mastered a college-level course.
We found that students who took and passed an A.P. science exam did about one-third of a letter grade better than their classmates with similar backgrounds who did not take an A.P. course. Even a score of 5 on an A.P. test is no guarantee of a college grade of A in the same subject.
First, passing an AP exam (3 or better) is only presumed to mean that they mastered the course at the less selective schools. It says in the preamble that the most selective schools recognize that a 3 or 4 is not good enough for college credit.
He then went ahead and decided that he would compare people who didn't get a 5 on the AP test with people who had never taken the course and decided that the grade difference meant that APs don't mean anything. It's like taking a group of people who failed a test the first time, giving it to them again, and then being surprised when the fail again. (Note: They didn't really fail, they just failed to be in an upper percentile of the class, which would be expected if they didn't know the material.)
I also find it hilarious that he expected everyone with a 5 to get an A in the course. I know a bunch of subjects I could have got an A in had I cared less about my CS courses.
Many had passed the A.P. exam, but had either been advised to take the college course as a way to deepen their knowledge or had to because their exam score did not meet departmental requirements. This group gave us an opportunity to see how A.P. students fared in college science, since passing an A.P. exam is presumed to mean that they had mastered a college-level course.
We found that students who took and passed an A.P. science exam did about one-third of a letter grade better than their classmates with similar backgrounds who did not take an A.P. course. Even a score of 5 on an A.P. test is no guarantee of a college grade of A in the same subject.
First, passing an AP exam (3 or better) is only presumed to mean that they mastered the course at the less selective schools. It says in the preamble that the most selective schools recognize that a 3 or 4 is not good enough for college credit.
He then went ahead and decided that he would compare people who didn't get a 5 on the AP test with people who had never taken the course and decided that the grade difference meant that APs don't mean anything. It's like taking a group of people who failed a test the first time, giving it to them again, and then being surprised when the fail again. (Note: They didn't really fail, they just failed to be in an upper percentile of the class, which would be expected if they didn't know the material.)
I also find it hilarious that he expected everyone with a 5 to get an A in the course. I know a bunch of subjects I could have got an A in had I cared less about my CS courses.
I know a bunch of subjects I could have got an A in had I cared less about my CS courses.
I find this comment to be rather sad.
I find this comment to be rather sad.
Well, GenEng courses require a lot of time and I would rather get an A in my CS course than get an A in Civil Engineering 201 (instead of a B+). My schedule sometimes involves tradeoffs (i.e., two required courses held at the same time), what's sad about that?
What's sad is that you apparently treated college as a vocational-training school. That's fairly normal these days, but still not something I like to see happen.
No I think that's a false comparison. Simply because I favor my computer science classes over others when they compete doesn't mean I don't receive a breadth education -- it simply means I'm a computer science major. Doing nothing but computer science would be treating college as vocational school, but that's not what I said. Instead I said that sometimes I sacrificed high grades in other courses for a high grade in computer science.
In addition, there's only a loose relationship between getting a very good grade in a course (as opposed to a good-mediocre one) and getting breadth knowledge out of the course. To believe otherwise would be to satisfy tendencies of grade inflation. For example, an A in a course was originally supposed to mean an excellent performance beyond expectation. To get an A in every single course should signal that you are either 1) extraordinarily dedicated to your school work and extremely bright or 2) the school is handing out an A not for extraordinary work, but only good work. In light of this, the most reasonable grade distribution for a bright, dedicated student would be a very strong (hopefully A level) grade distribution in their area of specialization with a good but not as extraordinary distribution in their breadth subjects.
It was interesting that you noted me as focusing on CS like vocational training when I actually take pride in my choice of courses as true liberal arts education. For example, while I am an engineer CS major, I will have taken enough courses in the physics and philosophy departments to almost qualify for a minor in the fields. Simply because I am unable to dedicated my time to all of my varied classes at once does not mean that I do not participate in number of different liberal arts.
In addition, there's only a loose relationship between getting a very good grade in a course (as opposed to a good-mediocre one) and getting breadth knowledge out of the course. To believe otherwise would be to satisfy tendencies of grade inflation. For example, an A in a course was originally supposed to mean an excellent performance beyond expectation. To get an A in every single course should signal that you are either 1) extraordinarily dedicated to your school work and extremely bright or 2) the school is handing out an A not for extraordinary work, but only good work. In light of this, the most reasonable grade distribution for a bright, dedicated student would be a very strong (hopefully A level) grade distribution in their area of specialization with a good but not as extraordinary distribution in their breadth subjects.
It was interesting that you noted me as focusing on CS like vocational training when I actually take pride in my choice of courses as true liberal arts education. For example, while I am an engineer CS major, I will have taken enough courses in the physics and philosophy departments to almost qualify for a minor in the fields. Simply because I am unable to dedicated my time to all of my varied classes at once does not mean that I do not participate in number of different liberal arts.
The point about pressure to take AP courses and exams that students aren't prepared to is rather interesting. One can see this effect by looking at the US News and World Report high school ranking:
http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2009/1...
The ranking is not necessary a great resource, but IMO the statistics within each school's stats are telling. Let's take the example of my former high school, Thomas Jefferson, versus another highly-ranked one (IIRC they were second last year):
Another is perhaps even more telling:
http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2009/1...
The ranking is not necessary a great resource, but IMO the statistics within each school's stats are telling. Let's take the example of my former high school, Thomas Jefferson, versus another highly-ranked one (IIRC they were second last year):
Thomas Jefferson High School (Alexandria, VA):
Exams Per Test Taker 7.1
Exam Passing Rate (3 or above): 98.1%
Oxford Academy (Orange County, CA):
Exams Per Test Taker 6.6
Exam Passing Rate (3 or above): 76.5%
Another is perhaps even more telling:
The School for the Talented and Gifted (Dallas, TX):
Exams Per Test Taker 13.2
Exam Passing Rate (3 or above): 60.9%
My anecdotal evidence says that the teacher makes much more of a difference than even the students. In my high school, every single kid that took AP Calculus got a 4 or 5 because the teacher was great, and barely anyone passed the chemistry exam. In a competing high school not far away it was exactly reversed: there was an effective chemistry teacher and every kid got a 4 or 5, but somehow they struggled in calculus.
I took a few APs and I got the feeling that while a few students were really interested in the subject and really wanted the college experience, most just wanted the bump in the GPA. Due to the expense of it the lab component was completely dropped. Since I learn mostly by trying and experimenting I felt like I learned less than when I took honors physics. I think by exam time most of realized we weren't really prepared and got used to the idea of taking college physics no matter the grade we got.
The college board makes a lot of money on these exams. The district paid for the curriculum and the exams. About $600 per student on average I believe. So there is a lot of money to be made by signing students up.
The college board makes a lot of money on these exams. The district paid for the curriculum and the exams. About $600 per student on average I believe. So there is a lot of money to be made by signing students up.
The exams cost considerably less than $600, even at list price, and the curricula are not published by College Board, but by independent textbook publishers.
Not all AP subjects are created equal, either. I had the privilege of attending a Fancy Private School(tm) which offered the full gamut of AP courses, and took advantage of a handful: English, Biology, Chemistry, French Literature, Calculus.
Of all these subjects, the French Literature (not to be confused with the langauge AP) was an order of magnitude harder. At my school, only students who stayed in the AP track from freshman year onwards were able to take the "AP" class, effectively making the AP requirement 4 years long. It was purely necessary: by 9th grade you know a little French, but the intensive vocabulary building, then reading simple books (The Little Prince), then graduating to proper literature and poetry -- it takes time to build up to that level. The program was hard but well worth it: the entire AP class (9 in total, starting from 30) came away with 4s and 5s. NYU later gave me something like three semester-class' worth of credits for that one AP. I think the monetary value for that is something like $10,000. Not too shabby.
I had some friends who took the Music Theory AP and reported a similarly difficult experience.
Of all these subjects, the French Literature (not to be confused with the langauge AP) was an order of magnitude harder. At my school, only students who stayed in the AP track from freshman year onwards were able to take the "AP" class, effectively making the AP requirement 4 years long. It was purely necessary: by 9th grade you know a little French, but the intensive vocabulary building, then reading simple books (The Little Prince), then graduating to proper literature and poetry -- it takes time to build up to that level. The program was hard but well worth it: the entire AP class (9 in total, starting from 30) came away with 4s and 5s. NYU later gave me something like three semester-class' worth of credits for that one AP. I think the monetary value for that is something like $10,000. Not too shabby.
I had some friends who took the Music Theory AP and reported a similarly difficult experience.