A KGB agent shipped a Sidewinder missile by mail to Moscow (2017)(nationalinterest.org)
nationalinterest.org
A KGB agent shipped a Sidewinder missile by mail to Moscow (2017)
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/fact-the-kgb-shipped-sidewinder-missile-by-mail-moscow-21673
50 コメント
I had to look it up.
MAD: Militärischer Abschirmdienst (Military Secret Service, Germany)
https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/MAD
MAD: Militärischer Abschirmdienst (Military Secret Service, Germany)
https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/MAD
Literal translation would by Military Shielding Service
Doesn't an exercise like that come with a high risk of getting shot?
Yes and no.
I am guessing he intended to surrender immediately when challenged, he just never was. It's a civilised country, so we tend to not have have shoot-first-ask-questions-later policies, at least not while I was pulling guard duty.
This is entirely reasonable, as there's not that much damage you can do between being challenged and surrendering (or not as it may be), at least at the fairly mundane mechanised infantry battalion I was stationed at. What are you going to do, steal a tank? Good luck with that! (Go for missiles instead!) I guess things might be a bit tougher at the base where they house the American nukes. If it is, I would presume there to be very obvious signage.
I do remember the story of a guard officer trying a bit too hard to test his troops and not surrendering when challenged repeatedly (different base). He was shot in accordance with the rules of engagement. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I am guessing he intended to surrender immediately when challenged, he just never was. It's a civilised country, so we tend to not have have shoot-first-ask-questions-later policies, at least not while I was pulling guard duty.
This is entirely reasonable, as there's not that much damage you can do between being challenged and surrendering (or not as it may be), at least at the fairly mundane mechanised infantry battalion I was stationed at. What are you going to do, steal a tank? Good luck with that! (Go for missiles instead!) I guess things might be a bit tougher at the base where they house the American nukes. If it is, I would presume there to be very obvious signage.
I do remember the story of a guard officer trying a bit too hard to test his troops and not surrendering when challenged repeatedly (different base). He was shot in accordance with the rules of engagement. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> I guess things might be a bit tougher at the base where they house the American nukes.
Regarding nuclear facilities, that reminds me of story on juridiction between an US Marshal and the security personnel of nuclear facility.
http://www.funraniumlabs.com/2018/09/the-fringes-of-regulati...
Regarding nuclear facilities, that reminds me of story on juridiction between an US Marshal and the security personnel of nuclear facility.
http://www.funraniumlabs.com/2018/09/the-fringes-of-regulati...
Quite a different approach from one in the bloc.
Nuclear bases in Eastern Russia are all built with though of stopping, and stalling a substantial military assault from paratroopers, sabotage specialists battalions, or forward armed recon that might preclude a full scale conflict, but security was known to be lax (thought still way above any normal base)
And in US it seems, they are more wary of infiltration by small force, or "trickery," or, I'll give myself liberty to imagine, enemies from within.
Nuclear bases in Eastern Russia are all built with though of stopping, and stalling a substantial military assault from paratroopers, sabotage specialists battalions, or forward armed recon that might preclude a full scale conflict, but security was known to be lax (thought still way above any normal base)
And in US it seems, they are more wary of infiltration by small force, or "trickery," or, I'll give myself liberty to imagine, enemies from within.
“ I guess things might be a bit tougher at the base where they house the American nukes“
You’d think, but if an 80 old nun can get in and et a selfie with a nuke, it can’t be too hard ;)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megan_Rice
You’d think, but if an 80 old nun can get in and et a selfie with a nuke, it can’t be too hard ;)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megan_Rice
Thousands of national security measures foiled by a guy in a mercedes with a wheelbarrow and a postman - impressive.
it would be interesting to know if and when they noticed it was missing
Given my experience I would assume that when they noticed it was written off as an inventory tracking error (assuming the thieves haven't left conspiciosly open empty transport case on the site)
I worked on a military site literally after the whole September 11th thing went down and everyone was super paranoid. Had armed police patrols and everything. At lunch we still cut through the same hole in the fence perimeter which had been there for about 4 years. This had been reported and not fixed and saved a good half a mile trip round the perimeter.
If anyone got any good at security in these sorts of places they usually ended up doing something else better paid for a living.
If anyone got any good at security in these sorts of places they usually ended up doing something else better paid for a living.
Reminds me of reading one of my dads books in school, about the formation of the SAS during world war 2.
It's been a long time since I read it, but it was something along the lines of certain military leaders doubted the ability of the SAS to sneak onto a base and plant bombs on airplanes. So they organized a test, where they would sneak onto one of their own bases and place stickers instead of bombs. The leader of the base was even given advance notice that this as going to happen.
The SAS not only managed to sneak onto the base, they managed to place stickers on the planes so thoroughly some planes had 2 or 3 stickers on them, and iirc they were totally undetected.
It was a thoroughly interesting read, and they did immense damage to the german army and air force in north africa, sometimes just driving jeeps onto bases and firing second hand machine guns originally for aircraft they managed to mount to their jeeps.
After reading that book, and the success they had sneaking onto bases in the middle of a shooting war, even after the opposing army was dedicating themselves to preventing the damage, I wouldn't be surprised if much more equipment, plans, and intelligence hasn't been stolen off bases that we simply don't know about.
It's been a long time since I read it, but it was something along the lines of certain military leaders doubted the ability of the SAS to sneak onto a base and plant bombs on airplanes. So they organized a test, where they would sneak onto one of their own bases and place stickers instead of bombs. The leader of the base was even given advance notice that this as going to happen.
The SAS not only managed to sneak onto the base, they managed to place stickers on the planes so thoroughly some planes had 2 or 3 stickers on them, and iirc they were totally undetected.
It was a thoroughly interesting read, and they did immense damage to the german army and air force in north africa, sometimes just driving jeeps onto bases and firing second hand machine guns originally for aircraft they managed to mount to their jeeps.
After reading that book, and the success they had sneaking onto bases in the middle of a shooting war, even after the opposing army was dedicating themselves to preventing the damage, I wouldn't be surprised if much more equipment, plans, and intelligence hasn't been stolen off bases that we simply don't know about.
a guy in a mercedes with a wheelbarrow and a postman
There's the movie title right there.
There's the movie title right there.
Perhaps the link should be updated to [1] as the primary source, since it was stated at the bottom that:
> This first appeared in WarIsBoring
[1] https://warisboring.com/the-kgb-shipped-a-sidewinder-missile...
> This first appeared in WarIsBoring
[1] https://warisboring.com/the-kgb-shipped-a-sidewinder-missile...
But this link has the cost of shipping wrong: $79.25
whilst the original NYTimes linked in op's link got it right: $483.88
Maybe the NYT adjusted for inflation?
> Ramminger and his aides were all arrested in late 1968 and jailed for four years.
Its surprising how much he got away with. It was a theft, conspiracy, espionage, mailing and customs rules violation. Did he that in US 2019, he would get 30 years min.
Its surprising how much he got away with. It was a theft, conspiracy, espionage, mailing and customs rules violation. Did he that in US 2019, he would get 30 years min.
I'm happy that 2017 is the date of the article, and not of the event.
[deleted]
Well in 2017 KGB agent would ship a missile to Minsk, not Moscow.
In 2017 KGB does not exist.
That's a very fine bit of hairsplitting. The current intelligence organization is literally the same group that went through a reorganization in the 90's and renamed twice: first to the FSK, then a few years later to the current FSB.
So, your statement is a bit like saying "2019 Google doesn't exist" because it reorganized into Alphabet, and there's no more Google Inc, only a much more narrowly focused subsidiary named Google LLC.
So, your statement is a bit like saying "2019 Google doesn't exist" because it reorganized into Alphabet, and there's no more Google Inc, only a much more narrowly focused subsidiary named Google LLC.
FSB does not operate outside of Russia. It is the equivalent of FBI in USA. Foreign intelligence agency of the Russian Federation is the SVR and GRU
In 2017 KGB is literally the Russian Government.
I'd say it's one of the branches, alongside with friends and mobsters, but this classification makes the same highly connective graph.
disclaimer: russian citizen myself. Greetings from Urals!
disclaimer: russian citizen myself. Greetings from Urals!
Maybe not in name, but the intent is definitely alive!
FSS or FSB (translated/native modern name) had changed a little from USSR so I don't know why this thread is existing in the first place.
A Google search for [Ramminger Knoppe] reveals original sources and an interesting Wikipedia article:
https://www.google.com/search?q=ramminger+knoppe
https://www.nytimes.com/1970/10/10/archives/3-germans-guilty...
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_Ramminger
https://www.google.com/search?q=ramminger+knoppe
https://www.nytimes.com/1970/10/10/archives/3-germans-guilty...
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_Ramminger
A few thoughts:
1) It's amazing how the operation to steal the AIM-9, despite being so high-risk, was accomplished with much ease & simplicity.
2) I am surprised that the KGB agent and his conspirators only received 4 years of prison time for this. This might just be my ignorance of the subject, but isn't stealing a missile and giving it to an enemy more deserving of a stricter sentence? Perhaps a deal was involved related to the intelligence the former KGB agent could provide in exchange for some leniency.
3) Tangential but semi-related: There is an interesting theory by Dimitri Khalezov about the armed Russian Kursk submarine, which sunk in 2000, being the source of a stolen nuclear-capable P-700 Granit anti-ship cruise missile. His theory is that this missile was the projectile which rammed through The Pentagon (but failed to detonate) on 2001 September 11th. Who stole the missile and why is a mystery, but pictures of the impact at The Pentagon and what is known about this missile could support the theory. Allegedly, when the Russians extracted the warheads from their sunken submarine, the extraction team was ordered to fill the warhead containers with a type of foam that would permanently seal them without checking the contents of the containers themselves. In essence, one or more missile containers recovered from the submarine may have actually been empty & verification of the contents was prevented in order to cover up the fact that a nuclear weapon had gone missing.
1) It's amazing how the operation to steal the AIM-9, despite being so high-risk, was accomplished with much ease & simplicity.
2) I am surprised that the KGB agent and his conspirators only received 4 years of prison time for this. This might just be my ignorance of the subject, but isn't stealing a missile and giving it to an enemy more deserving of a stricter sentence? Perhaps a deal was involved related to the intelligence the former KGB agent could provide in exchange for some leniency.
3) Tangential but semi-related: There is an interesting theory by Dimitri Khalezov about the armed Russian Kursk submarine, which sunk in 2000, being the source of a stolen nuclear-capable P-700 Granit anti-ship cruise missile. His theory is that this missile was the projectile which rammed through The Pentagon (but failed to detonate) on 2001 September 11th. Who stole the missile and why is a mystery, but pictures of the impact at The Pentagon and what is known about this missile could support the theory. Allegedly, when the Russians extracted the warheads from their sunken submarine, the extraction team was ordered to fill the warhead containers with a type of foam that would permanently seal them without checking the contents of the containers themselves. In essence, one or more missile containers recovered from the submarine may have actually been empty & verification of the contents was prevented in order to cover up the fact that a nuclear weapon had gone missing.
> 3) Tangential but semi-related
So wait... some people think a missile hit the Pentagon instead of an airplane on 9/11? What happened to American Airlines Flight 77, then?
So wait... some people think a missile hit the Pentagon instead of an airplane on 9/11? What happened to American Airlines Flight 77, then?
Those same people tend to believe the moon landing was faked as well.
The moon landing I tend not to care about either way, because the impact of that event didn't result in terrible things for the US (like decades of war in the middle east.)
>some people think a missile hit the Pentagon
The strike on the pentagon was not dissimilar from a non-detonating cruise missile hit.
>What happened to American Airlines Flight 77, then?
A 4-hour presentation given by Khalezov includes 9/11 video of a witness at The Pentagon stating there was no airplane. He later suggests that the planes were acquired by the US government as a cover story so the population would not believe the nation was under nuclear threat.
I suppose that because the government heavily regulates the airline industry and is deeply involved in classified ways with the same companies who manufacture these aircraft, it's not inconceivable that some could be acquired for the purposes of a cover-up.
Here's a question for you: Why were certain procedures unique to nuclear attacks enacted on the day of 9/11? For example, why was the door to NORAD's Cheyenne Mountain Complex in Colorado sealed if the threat was only hijacked planes?
The strike on the pentagon was not dissimilar from a non-detonating cruise missile hit.
>What happened to American Airlines Flight 77, then?
A 4-hour presentation given by Khalezov includes 9/11 video of a witness at The Pentagon stating there was no airplane. He later suggests that the planes were acquired by the US government as a cover story so the population would not believe the nation was under nuclear threat.
I suppose that because the government heavily regulates the airline industry and is deeply involved in classified ways with the same companies who manufacture these aircraft, it's not inconceivable that some could be acquired for the purposes of a cover-up.
Here's a question for you: Why were certain procedures unique to nuclear attacks enacted on the day of 9/11? For example, why was the door to NORAD's Cheyenne Mountain Complex in Colorado sealed if the threat was only hijacked planes?
> Here's a question for you: Why were certain procedures unique to nuclear attacks enacted on the day of 9/11? For example, why was the door to NORAD's Cheyenne Mountain Complex in Colorado sealed if the threat was only hijacked planes?
Because the shit hit the fan and everyone hit the panic button Just in Case™?
Because the shit hit the fan and everyone hit the panic button Just in Case™?
In Thailand you can ship basically everything by mail.
Here is how to ship a motorcycle
https://www.tielandtothailand.com/shipping-motorcycle-thaila...
He was most likely a GRU (Soviet military intelligence), not a KGB agent. Still in that era the existence of GRU was not well known. His officer likely wouldn't share too many details.
The Soviets spent a lot of time and effort with their premiere intelligence agents to steal a missile invented in an American garage. Amazing.
Perhaps the iron curtain, I think was not such a great barrier as portrayed by the Western Media, people could mail things across it, and travel across it wasn't much different from crossing international borders now, I think there was even regular passenger ferry between FRG and USSR. Between East Berlin and west Berlin, there seems to have been much daily movement of people, like people living in West Berlin but working in East Berlin, etc.
I grew up living next to the iron curtain, literally <100m away. It was multiple tall fences, guard towers every 100m or so, a road, electric fences, detection mechanisms, barbed wire. To travel across from East to West, you needed a special permit, that was given or held back depending how much "risk" you were (of fleeing, not to the regime). My parents could travel only if they left me there, I stayed with grandparents for 2 weeks.
There were regular known cases of people getting killed or jailed trying to cross.
The security tended to get tighter and tighter as time went by and more... "permeations" were discovered. So I expect security around the iron curtain in the '60s was a bit more lax than in the '80s. If the Berlin wall is any example, it was.
Certainly you could cross if you had permission. One difference is that it was much harder to get that permission, especially for people on the Communist side to get permission to leave. (How many countries have you heard of today where that’s a thing?) Another difference is that the penalty for crossing illegally was often instant death, which tends not to be the case on most international borders today.
That's false. The guy who wrote this book (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_No_Evil_(book)) spent more than a decade in the Gulag because he was denied permission to emigrate across the Iron Curtain and was a human rights activist agitating for emigration rights.
I do think there were tourists from USSR visiting other countries including the western Europe. Political dissidents may have been subject to measures not applicable to the general public.
> Political dissidents may have been subject to measures not applicable to the general public.
He wasn't refused permission to emigrate because he was a dissident. IIRC, the refusal he received and those received by others are what lead him on the path to becoming a dissident.
He wasn't refused permission to emigrate because he was a dissident. IIRC, the refusal he received and those received by others are what lead him on the path to becoming a dissident.
An East German Army Colonel's Uniform.
Ooopsy.