Israel’s lucrative and secretive cybersurveillance industry(restofworld.org)
restofworld.org
Israel’s lucrative and secretive cybersurveillance industry
https://restofworld.org/2021/inside-israels-lucrative-and-secretive-cybersurveillance-talent-pipeline/
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It's also suspected the Saudi gov / monarch used Pegasus to hack Jeff Bezos phone and steal his and his mistresses nudes [0] in response to Washington Post's coverage of the Khashoggi murder.
https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-phone-hacked-saud....
https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-phone-hacked-saud....
I think the latest theory is someone close to him peeked at his unlocked phone?
Like, I think there was something about the journal threatening to release the photos and being able to describe the photos, but they never followed through or sent a proof that they did have the photos, which suggests someone looked at Bezos' phone but didn't actually download the data.
Like, I think there was something about the journal threatening to release the photos and being able to describe the photos, but they never followed through or sent a proof that they did have the photos, which suggests someone looked at Bezos' phone but didn't actually download the data.
This is why I have recently thought that part of the US national labs’s mission should be to create secure communications software in the event of an authoritarian government takeover. Such software could also be shared with other country’s citizens.
Check out the Open Technology Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Technology_Fund
Once they have drones with weapons then even gun rights like the second amendment won't help. I feel people like Stalin or Hitler were born just a little too early. Today's tech would make their job much easier.
Or let’s even pick much more recent figures...
“I feel people like J. Edgar Hoover and Joseph McCarthy were born just a little too early.”
For non-Americans:
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
“I feel people like J. Edgar Hoover and Joseph McCarthy were born just a little too early.”
For non-Americans:
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
> In Israel, tech education can begin as early as middle school
Actual selection starts in kindergarden. Various games and activities that select for ability to follow and understand the rules and so on. Results from kindergarden define class distribution in elementary. At the second grade kids do kind of IQ test (0-100). Those who scored 92-95 get selected for one-day-a-week development program. Those with 95-100 get selected to special schools. Every half a year each teacher fills a summary on each kid. The summary is added to general evaluation.
By the time, they get to army, it's known precisely which unit is the best fit mentally and physically.
Drawback of this system: if immigrant kid gets directly into high school without document trail, he is labeled as not smart. Goes directly to the Border Police. There is a special unit within the Border Policy for kids, who are smart and got there by mistake. In general border police are mentally challenged grunts unable to follow complex written instructions (anecdote: my collegue was treating in the field a border police soldier who lost an eye by shooting through the hole with label "Do not shoot through this hole, you'll lose an eye").
Actual selection starts in kindergarden. Various games and activities that select for ability to follow and understand the rules and so on. Results from kindergarden define class distribution in elementary. At the second grade kids do kind of IQ test (0-100). Those who scored 92-95 get selected for one-day-a-week development program. Those with 95-100 get selected to special schools. Every half a year each teacher fills a summary on each kid. The summary is added to general evaluation.
By the time, they get to army, it's known precisely which unit is the best fit mentally and physically.
Drawback of this system: if immigrant kid gets directly into high school without document trail, he is labeled as not smart. Goes directly to the Border Police. There is a special unit within the Border Policy for kids, who are smart and got there by mistake. In general border police are mentally challenged grunts unable to follow complex written instructions (anecdote: my collegue was treating in the field a border police soldier who lost an eye by shooting through the hole with label "Do not shoot through this hole, you'll lose an eye").
It's a bit overkill. There is plenty of immigrant kids that go directly to high school and from there to 8200 and whatever. Half of compsci class in my high school was fresh off the plane and i don't think anyone ended in border police :)
[deleted]
Great point!
y'know as an israeli who left the country at 13, that explains some interesting tests I remember :) (are you talking about "psychometric" testing?)
Yes, except after high school test.
Psychometric test after high school and before university is calibrated to predict performance at the first semester finals.
Psychometric test after high school and before university is calibrated to predict performance at the first semester finals.
> As K. recalls, the recruitment pitch directed toward him was more about the “caressing of ego.” He was told: “You’re the best. We chose you. You’re one in a million. Most people can’t handle this job. You’re a genius.”
8200-alumni, can confirm lol.
8200-alumni, can confirm lol.
When I was in the last few months of tech school, Ft. Meade recruited our class. Apparently, the school had a deal with them.
I decided not to pursue. I wasn't particularly thrilled with being a janitor for six months, while they cleared me.
These days, I doubt they'd touch me with a ten-foot pole. Young folks are clean slates. Us old farts are baggage, personified. No "red flags," but I'm also really cynical, and they'd have a hard time getting me to jump through their hoops.
I decided not to pursue. I wasn't particularly thrilled with being a janitor for six months, while they cleared me.
These days, I doubt they'd touch me with a ten-foot pole. Young folks are clean slates. Us old farts are baggage, personified. No "red flags," but I'm also really cynical, and they'd have a hard time getting me to jump through their hoops.
It's kind of hilarious because the big lesson I learned in the US military is that they have a great system for coordinating/motivating a whole bunch of average people into doing "big" things.
I use this to motivate myself to this day... "well I was born a perhaps slightly above-average schlub... if those other people can succeed then with a bit of persistence so can I."
Maybe I've been going about it all wrong!
I use this to motivate myself to this day... "well I was born a perhaps slightly above-average schlub... if those other people can succeed then with a bit of persistence so can I."
Maybe I've been going about it all wrong!
great as in big, not as in good (what's good anyway?). it's idea inception for the masses, same for military, same for religion...
it's all about intentions. when you do it, you know your intentions. when it's foreign interest it's another story.
it's all about intentions. when you do it, you know your intentions. when it's foreign interest it's another story.
great as in successful... their management system is successful in doing big things
Do you find pretty universal recognition of unit 8200 among American companies at this point? Most recruiters and hiring managers must be somewhat familiar by now, no?
8200/8153 on a CV is a pretty much guaranteed interview regardless of experience, if nothing else than out of sheer curiosity, that also holds true in Europe these days.
That said outside of Israel it’s essentially impossible to validate, I actually wonder how many people take advantage of that, 8200 is huge it’s the largest (single) unit in the IDF (tho 8200 is technically the command level unit number, there are numerous sub units under it) it won’t be that hard to simply lie especially to a foreign company.
That said outside of Israel it’s essentially impossible to validate, I actually wonder how many people take advantage of that, 8200 is huge it’s the largest (single) unit in the IDF (tho 8200 is technically the command level unit number, there are numerous sub units under it) it won’t be that hard to simply lie especially to a foreign company.
definitely at least when it comes to cyber security.
LOL, sounds like if Google or Palantir weren't even pretending not to be evil.
What was the process like, if you don't mind me asking? How did they 'discover' you and your talents?
for the average person, if you studied computer science in school or something like that, they refer you to intelligence unit tests, and they refer you to whatever sub-unit/team/squad/center/agency call it whatever. it's similar to big corporations where they say "get me 50 specialists of X Y and Z by next year" and then managers of X, Y and Z rock-paper-scissors it.
also before you are being recruited, you are asked to list preferences. then in intelligence again, what are your interests, etc. I guess I aced the tests because I went through so many of them, should've focused only on what I actually wanted. it goes without saying it's not odd for them not to give a fuck about your preferences.
also before you are being recruited, you are asked to list preferences. then in intelligence again, what are your interests, etc. I guess I aced the tests because I went through so many of them, should've focused only on what I actually wanted. it goes without saying it's not odd for them not to give a fuck about your preferences.
IDF has a whole process for examination and selection of people into various roles. You usually get an invitation for an exam if you majored in CS in school and you can also request one.
Low health profile, single child...
This is really straight forward - a nation's economic activity is always going to be shaped by its military policy and investment.
For example - the US dominance in fields like internet, electronics and aviation is probably directly related to the investment the country has made in related fields for military reasons. Once you have a manufacturing base and labor force that knows how to do X, they will do it commercially.
Israel is a small nation of well educated people which is consistently dealing with external existential threads. Of course its military strategy is going to be intelligence-based (rather pre-empt on pin-point basis rather than go to all out war down the road.) And then of course people will graduate from that military experience of using computers for broad data analysis and look to put it to commercial use. This manifests in cyber security and ad tec and plenty of other civilian uses like medical imaging. None of this is particularly malign or surprising. It comes down to - if you have a large labor force who can do X, and there are subsets of X you don't like, there's going to be some proportion of what the country does that you won't like.
For example - the US dominance in fields like internet, electronics and aviation is probably directly related to the investment the country has made in related fields for military reasons. Once you have a manufacturing base and labor force that knows how to do X, they will do it commercially.
Israel is a small nation of well educated people which is consistently dealing with external existential threads. Of course its military strategy is going to be intelligence-based (rather pre-empt on pin-point basis rather than go to all out war down the road.) And then of course people will graduate from that military experience of using computers for broad data analysis and look to put it to commercial use. This manifests in cyber security and ad tec and plenty of other civilian uses like medical imaging. None of this is particularly malign or surprising. It comes down to - if you have a large labor force who can do X, and there are subsets of X you don't like, there's going to be some proportion of what the country does that you won't like.
The idea that the nation with the most lethal, best organized, and richest military in the region by orders of magnitude - the only military in the neighborhood with nuclear weapons, and invincible submarine-launched nuclear weapons at that - faces any sort of existential threat from anyone is a bad joke. That you see this "argument" so often only speaks to the effectiveness of a decades-long PR campaign, and not any reality.
Does Israel have enemies? Plenty, and justifiably so in many cases! But enemies and existential threats are not the same thing. There is no existential threat to Israel, certainly not any in the form of a foreign aggressor. Anyone even considering becoming a serious existential threat to Israel has to contend with the reality of attempting to get rid of it militarily, assuming they could even come close to doing so: the inevitable (and probably immediate) annihilation, Dr. Strangelove-style, of the entire region in retaliatory nuclear strikes. Israel has militarily guaranteed its continued existence, and wagging our fingers at each other on the internet cannot change anything about it.
If anything, with an arsenal like that, you wonder whether other countries in the neighborhood might ask whether Israel is an existential threat to them. Who could tell them they're wrong?
Does Israel have enemies? Plenty, and justifiably so in many cases! But enemies and existential threats are not the same thing. There is no existential threat to Israel, certainly not any in the form of a foreign aggressor. Anyone even considering becoming a serious existential threat to Israel has to contend with the reality of attempting to get rid of it militarily, assuming they could even come close to doing so: the inevitable (and probably immediate) annihilation, Dr. Strangelove-style, of the entire region in retaliatory nuclear strikes. Israel has militarily guaranteed its continued existence, and wagging our fingers at each other on the internet cannot change anything about it.
If anything, with an arsenal like that, you wonder whether other countries in the neighborhood might ask whether Israel is an existential threat to them. Who could tell them they're wrong?
This seems like a really odd take. Iraq attempted to develop nuclear weapons back in the 80's. Iran is currently attempting to do so.
Israel's enemies are often non-state actors that have already demonstrated they don't really care about their personal survival or civilian casualties (theirs or Israel's).
You could argue that Israel is well equipped to control any existential threat by it's neighbors, but to argue such a threat doesn't exist is kind of silly.
Israel's enemies are often non-state actors that have already demonstrated they don't really care about their personal survival or civilian casualties (theirs or Israel's).
You could argue that Israel is well equipped to control any existential threat by it's neighbors, but to argue such a threat doesn't exist is kind of silly.
> Iran is currently attempting to do so.
You know what Israel is also good at. Propaganda and creating fake intelligence.
Israel has for almost 30 years now argued that Iran is just a year away from nuclear weapons and the US must instantly attack Iran.
Iran had no plan to develop anything and wanted civilian nuclear power, complete controlled by France in terms of import and export of nuclear fuel.
When this was blocked Iran moved said, well I guess we will invest in this ourself. Once they had the started capability to do so, again with no evidence of developing nuclear weapons Israel/US started the assassinate Iranian scientists, create one of the most aggressive sanctions programs in world history and a whole host of other things such as stuxnet.
Despite multiple US intelligence agencies saying there was no evidence of a nuclear weapons program and many expert predicting Iran had no such plans.
Iran eventually agree to the most extreme observation of their nuclear program that any nation has ever agree on in history of nuclear agreements. And this program was active for quite a while, and found no evidence what so ever that there had ever been a nuclear program. Basically all expert saying that it was practically impossible for them to have a nuclear weapons program with those safegurads in control.
The US then left an international agreement, despite every other nation that was part of the agreement agree that Iran had behaved perfectly within the agreement. Iran was certified multiple times of having not engaged in any activity that was not allowed in the agreement.
And even after the US left the agreement, Iran and the other nations still hold to the agreement and safeguards are still in place.
So this idea that Iran is this big danger is simply propaganda pushed by Israel mostly and other US interests who hate Iran for various reasons.
What really mind blowing about this whole 'Iran nuclear controversy' is that ironical Isreal IS ACTUALLY nuclear rough state. Iran is a signatory of the NPT while Israel is not.
But of course them having them is just fine and proper, but anybody else getting them existential thread. But that argument of course is never allowed to be made the other way around.
If there is a state of rebellious fanatics that repress large parts of their population that is a thread to the world, I know what state I would pick. And if I were the neighbour of such a state, I be very concerned. It is Israel actually that has invaded other countries repeatedly far more often then they were invaded.
Just about right now that Biden might even consider even possible reopening negotiations, the propaganda machine is pumping out this garbage again.
You know what Israel is also good at. Propaganda and creating fake intelligence.
Israel has for almost 30 years now argued that Iran is just a year away from nuclear weapons and the US must instantly attack Iran.
Iran had no plan to develop anything and wanted civilian nuclear power, complete controlled by France in terms of import and export of nuclear fuel.
When this was blocked Iran moved said, well I guess we will invest in this ourself. Once they had the started capability to do so, again with no evidence of developing nuclear weapons Israel/US started the assassinate Iranian scientists, create one of the most aggressive sanctions programs in world history and a whole host of other things such as stuxnet.
Despite multiple US intelligence agencies saying there was no evidence of a nuclear weapons program and many expert predicting Iran had no such plans.
Iran eventually agree to the most extreme observation of their nuclear program that any nation has ever agree on in history of nuclear agreements. And this program was active for quite a while, and found no evidence what so ever that there had ever been a nuclear program. Basically all expert saying that it was practically impossible for them to have a nuclear weapons program with those safegurads in control.
The US then left an international agreement, despite every other nation that was part of the agreement agree that Iran had behaved perfectly within the agreement. Iran was certified multiple times of having not engaged in any activity that was not allowed in the agreement.
And even after the US left the agreement, Iran and the other nations still hold to the agreement and safeguards are still in place.
So this idea that Iran is this big danger is simply propaganda pushed by Israel mostly and other US interests who hate Iran for various reasons.
What really mind blowing about this whole 'Iran nuclear controversy' is that ironical Isreal IS ACTUALLY nuclear rough state. Iran is a signatory of the NPT while Israel is not.
But of course them having them is just fine and proper, but anybody else getting them existential thread. But that argument of course is never allowed to be made the other way around.
If there is a state of rebellious fanatics that repress large parts of their population that is a thread to the world, I know what state I would pick. And if I were the neighbour of such a state, I be very concerned. It is Israel actually that has invaded other countries repeatedly far more often then they were invaded.
Just about right now that Biden might even consider even possible reopening negotiations, the propaganda machine is pumping out this garbage again.
A reason Iran is threatening to Israel is because Iranian leaders don't recognize Israel's right to exist. I don't have data on when Iran will/can develop a nuclear weapon. There is a fear that they would make use of it though, which is definitely a problem. In contrast to Iran's stance, Israel does recognize Iran's right to exist, and while it is in possession of nuclear bombs, has not used them. Iran also provides funding and weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah, which are both internationally recognized terrorist groups on Israel's borders that launch rockets into the country. So while Israel is technologically ahead, Iran demonstrates intent to be an aggressor against Israel given the opportunity. In the interest of avoiding a war between Iran and Israel, where I argue there is no real winner when lives are lost, it's worth making sure Iran doesn't have the opportunity to start a war. Israel would much prefer to have peace.
I agree with the concern about the 1 year claim. Iran definitely has the right to use civilian nuclear power, and I don't know the math behind the 1 year line. It may be that 1 year is the fastest possible amount of time that Iran could conceivably develop a nuke, in which case, I totally agree, it's propaganda to be citing that.
I agree with the concern about the 1 year claim. Iran definitely has the right to use civilian nuclear power, and I don't know the math behind the 1 year line. It may be that 1 year is the fastest possible amount of time that Iran could conceivably develop a nuke, in which case, I totally agree, it's propaganda to be citing that.
> A reason Iran is threatening to Israel is because Iranian leaders don't recognize Israel's right to exist.
Neither do most nations in the region. Iran has stated multiple times that Iran would comply with the Arab peace process.
> I don't have data on when Iran will/can develop a nuclear weapon. There is a fear that they would make use of it though, which is definitely a problem.
And what is that fear based on? That they are crazy religious nuts who don't understand game theory? Very reasonable.
This is just more propaganda, that one religious nation claims the other religious nations leaders are a bunch of suicide bombers.
Expert consequences by people who actually study this is that even if Iran had nuclear weapons, they would not use it.
This is exactly like when in the US the anti-Communist claimed the Communist whole nuke everybody.
> Iran also provides funding and weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah, which are both internationally recognized terrorist groups on Israel's borders that launch rockets into the country.
And Israel has invaded the Lebanon, is consistently stealing more land from Palestinians, is often bombing West Bank and Gaza.
Israel has attacked the Iranian nuclear program and has bombed Iranian forces in Syria. Despite these forces being there based on invitation from the international recognized government of Syria.
Why can this not be treated like any other conflict between two nations, where we use the same standards for both governments?
> So while Israel is technologically ahead, Iran demonstrates intent to be an aggressor against Israel given the opportunity.
In Israel has done the same thing and arguably has done far more. Not to mention the constant and public demands from Israel that the US should attack Iran and bomb them into the stone age.
Seriously, go and actually listen to what Israeli politicians from the Likud and even further right wing groups say about what should be done to Iran. And listen to what people in the US government who are friends of Likud say. Bombing them into the stone age, preemptive war and so on.
Btw, while Israel accepts that Iran as a country should exists, they do not think the Islamic Republic is legitimate and had a regime change policy for a long time.
> In the interest of avoiding a war between Iran and Israel, where I argue there is no real winner when lives are lost, it's worth making sure Iran doesn't have the opportunity to start a war. Israel would much prefer to have peace.
Israel has a funny way of showing they want peace in that case.
> I agree with the concern about the 1 year claim. Iran definitely has the right to use civilian nuclear power, and I don't know the math behind the 1 year line. It may be that 1 year is the fastest possible amount of time that Iran could conceivably develop a nuke, in which case, I totally agree, it's propaganda to be citing that.
As long as the safeguards are in place, Iran can't develop a nuke at all. And from Israels perspective that is exactly the problem. That is exactly why Israel and friends almost went ballistic when Obama showed that Iran could be a international partner with an agreement.
Now the buggy-men about Iran nuclear is gone and that makes it impossible for them to ever get the US into a war with Iran. And they know Iran doesn't have the conventional military.
What if if 'shock' Iran became a normal country in the international order. That must be prevented at any cost.
Neither do most nations in the region. Iran has stated multiple times that Iran would comply with the Arab peace process.
> I don't have data on when Iran will/can develop a nuclear weapon. There is a fear that they would make use of it though, which is definitely a problem.
And what is that fear based on? That they are crazy religious nuts who don't understand game theory? Very reasonable.
This is just more propaganda, that one religious nation claims the other religious nations leaders are a bunch of suicide bombers.
Expert consequences by people who actually study this is that even if Iran had nuclear weapons, they would not use it.
This is exactly like when in the US the anti-Communist claimed the Communist whole nuke everybody.
> Iran also provides funding and weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah, which are both internationally recognized terrorist groups on Israel's borders that launch rockets into the country.
And Israel has invaded the Lebanon, is consistently stealing more land from Palestinians, is often bombing West Bank and Gaza.
Israel has attacked the Iranian nuclear program and has bombed Iranian forces in Syria. Despite these forces being there based on invitation from the international recognized government of Syria.
Why can this not be treated like any other conflict between two nations, where we use the same standards for both governments?
> So while Israel is technologically ahead, Iran demonstrates intent to be an aggressor against Israel given the opportunity.
In Israel has done the same thing and arguably has done far more. Not to mention the constant and public demands from Israel that the US should attack Iran and bomb them into the stone age.
Seriously, go and actually listen to what Israeli politicians from the Likud and even further right wing groups say about what should be done to Iran. And listen to what people in the US government who are friends of Likud say. Bombing them into the stone age, preemptive war and so on.
Btw, while Israel accepts that Iran as a country should exists, they do not think the Islamic Republic is legitimate and had a regime change policy for a long time.
> In the interest of avoiding a war between Iran and Israel, where I argue there is no real winner when lives are lost, it's worth making sure Iran doesn't have the opportunity to start a war. Israel would much prefer to have peace.
Israel has a funny way of showing they want peace in that case.
> I agree with the concern about the 1 year claim. Iran definitely has the right to use civilian nuclear power, and I don't know the math behind the 1 year line. It may be that 1 year is the fastest possible amount of time that Iran could conceivably develop a nuke, in which case, I totally agree, it's propaganda to be citing that.
As long as the safeguards are in place, Iran can't develop a nuke at all. And from Israels perspective that is exactly the problem. That is exactly why Israel and friends almost went ballistic when Obama showed that Iran could be a international partner with an agreement.
Now the buggy-men about Iran nuclear is gone and that makes it impossible for them to ever get the US into a war with Iran. And they know Iran doesn't have the conventional military.
What if if 'shock' Iran became a normal country in the international order. That must be prevented at any cost.
The only way this perspective makes sense is if you cherry pick Iran's statements and believe the ones that argue they have a peaceful nuclear programs and ignore the ones that say Israel should be wiped out.
Yeah so lets ignore international nuclear safety organization who have verified the situation and the US national and international intelligence agencies who have also said so.
> ignore the ones that say Israel should be wiped out.
Israel has multiple times and often directly advocated and produced fake evidence in order to attempt to provoke a war between the US and Iran.
There is a well document history of this.
Why do we think its legitimate for Israel to ignore international agreements, and threaten Iran non-stop (including multiple assassination and attacks on Iranian territory) but when Iran does even 1/10 of that everybody freaks out and calls for war on Iran?
> ignore the ones that say Israel should be wiped out.
Israel has multiple times and often directly advocated and produced fake evidence in order to attempt to provoke a war between the US and Iran.
There is a well document history of this.
Why do we think its legitimate for Israel to ignore international agreements, and threaten Iran non-stop (including multiple assassination and attacks on Iranian territory) but when Iran does even 1/10 of that everybody freaks out and calls for war on Iran?
Their military is so well equipped and organized only because outside pressure from their neighbours forced them to do so. The very existential threat discussed by the parent comment was what put them where they are now.
[deleted]
> Israel is a small nation of well educated people
Out of 9 million population, only 200k work in Hi-Tech and only 28k of those work in startups.
Only half of the high school students successfully pass matriculation examination.
Very common mistake (even in Israel) to confuse Jews as a nation and Israel as Jewish state. Half of the jews chose not to live in Israel. The educated half.
Out of 9 million population, only 200k work in Hi-Tech and only 28k of those work in startups.
Only half of the high school students successfully pass matriculation examination.
Very common mistake (even in Israel) to confuse Jews as a nation and Israel as Jewish state. Half of the jews chose not to live in Israel. The educated half.
> Out of 9 million population, only 200k work in Hi-Tech
Per available data, that is 321,000 employees, comprising 9.2% of the overall workforce. That is a very high portion, higher even than here in the US, where only 7.7% are tech workers.
https://nocamels.com/2020/02/israeli-high-tech-industry-grow...
> Half of the jews chose not to live in Israel. The educated half.
It's very clear that you have a blatant anti-Israeli agenda. Still important to point out that contrary to your biased, counterfactual claims, Israeli Jews are no less educated or talented than others, based on the actual facts of the Israeli technology industry and its economic achievements:
https://www.amazon.com/Start-up-Nation-Israels-Economic-Mira...
Per available data, that is 321,000 employees, comprising 9.2% of the overall workforce. That is a very high portion, higher even than here in the US, where only 7.7% are tech workers.
https://nocamels.com/2020/02/israeli-high-tech-industry-grow...
> Half of the jews chose not to live in Israel. The educated half.
It's very clear that you have a blatant anti-Israeli agenda. Still important to point out that contrary to your biased, counterfactual claims, Israeli Jews are no less educated or talented than others, based on the actual facts of the Israeli technology industry and its economic achievements:
https://www.amazon.com/Start-up-Nation-Israels-Economic-Mira...
Hmm being and remaining a Jewish state is the very cornerstone of Israel and Israeli Palestinian conflict. Otherwise they could have just agreed to the right to return and ended the whole thing
Even if the Jewish state status wouldn’t be an issue right of return will never happen it would be a social and economic suicide.
This isn’t the German unification it’s not even the possible Korean unification there is really no way to deal with it other than grant Palestinian refugees an actual refugee status and settle them.
Keep in mind even the PA doesn’t want to grant RoR to refugees many of them weren’t refugees from the land that is now Israel but wasn’t pre-1967 or even 1948, many of them escaped from what is now the West Bank, some one their own, some due to Israeli pressure some due to Jordanian pressure.
This isn’t the German unification it’s not even the possible Korean unification there is really no way to deal with it other than grant Palestinian refugees an actual refugee status and settle them.
Keep in mind even the PA doesn’t want to grant RoR to refugees many of them weren’t refugees from the land that is now Israel but wasn’t pre-1967 or even 1948, many of them escaped from what is now the West Bank, some one their own, some due to Israeli pressure some due to Jordanian pressure.
But that is the entire point. Of course PA doesn’t want refugees to resettle in the West Bank, they want them to return to Israel main. Two states solution means completely different things depending on who you are talking to. To the Palestinians it means two Arab states
In the 1990s, over a million Jews from the former Soviet Union settled in Israel. We should be clear about that. It is technically possible for the Palestinians to return. What prevents them from returning is deeply entrenched racism:
"In 2009, 72 percent named a Jewish majority as one of their two leading values, versus 71 percent in 2007, while 36 percent and 29 percent, respectively, named Greater Israel as a leading value. Democracy has been losing public support in the last five years. In 2009, 35 percent of the population opted for democracy as their most or the second most important value; in contrast in 2005, 60 percent of respondents chose democracy as their most or the second most important value."
https://reliefweb.int/report/israel/vox-populi-trends-israel...
"In 2009, 72 percent named a Jewish majority as one of their two leading values, versus 71 percent in 2007, while 36 percent and 29 percent, respectively, named Greater Israel as a leading value. Democracy has been losing public support in the last five years. In 2009, 35 percent of the population opted for democracy as their most or the second most important value; in contrast in 2005, 60 percent of respondents chose democracy as their most or the second most important value."
https://reliefweb.int/report/israel/vox-populi-trends-israel...
There are 2 millions Arabs living in Israel right now. If you add 5 millions refugees, Israel(9m total population) will no longer be Jewish state. Which is what I said in the first post. RoR simply will never be realised. You can call it whatever you wish, but to Israel it is basically a suicide
Never say never. In my experience, when people say "it will never happen" what they mean is that they hope it will never happen. But you are correct that as long as Israel continues to be an apartheid state that values Jewish life over non-Jewish, the Palestinian refugees will not be allowed to return to their homeland. However, just like the South African apartheid system was dismantled in the 1990s, so can the Israeli apartheid system. Most people didn't believe it would ever happen until it did. And just like in South Africa, there are Israeli dissidents who are not happy with the racist nature of their state. It's up to the world to support them.
My money is on Israel. Sorry.
> state that values Jewish life over non-Jewish
This statement is especially funny in the light of the current election campaign where Orthodox parties compare all non-orthodox Jews to dogs.
This statement is especially funny in the light of the current election campaign where Orthodox parties compare all non-orthodox Jews to dogs.
> You can call it whatever you wish, but to Israel it is basically a suicide
If you just repeat something often enough people start to believe it. And in reality most of those people wouldn't want to come back anyway.
And of course, what really is unbelievable is that Israel claims the right to return for literally every Jew in the world, despite most of them having no connection what so ever to Israel for 1000s of years.
Israel actively engages in a demographic battle where the recruit Jews form around the world, to come to Israel.
In Ukraine, if you can prove even some Jews in your family try, you might get a passport for Israel and a nice place to live in Westbank.
Lets be clear here, this is not about what can and can not be done. This is about what leaders of a Apartheit state want to be the case. Its not surprising an Apartheit state doesn't want to remove itself.
Its profoundly fucked up that somebody 1000 of miles away from Israel who was never there had 'the right to return' and those people who grew up there don't.
If you just repeat something often enough people start to believe it. And in reality most of those people wouldn't want to come back anyway.
And of course, what really is unbelievable is that Israel claims the right to return for literally every Jew in the world, despite most of them having no connection what so ever to Israel for 1000s of years.
Israel actively engages in a demographic battle where the recruit Jews form around the world, to come to Israel.
In Ukraine, if you can prove even some Jews in your family try, you might get a passport for Israel and a nice place to live in Westbank.
Lets be clear here, this is not about what can and can not be done. This is about what leaders of a Apartheit state want to be the case. Its not surprising an Apartheit state doesn't want to remove itself.
Its profoundly fucked up that somebody 1000 of miles away from Israel who was never there had 'the right to return' and those people who grew up there don't.
Outbrain and Taboola are as sneaky as the cybersurveillance and they might cover the same thing after all. Not sure how far this will go without any consequences until Israelis decide it's not the right thing to do and it is bad for the country in the long run.
It's an easy jump from digital surveillance to targeted advertising. The only difference is who pays for the data.
[deleted]
Or just invest in a digital advertising company (example: Facebook and In-Q-Tel)
Can you explain what's so sneaky about Outbrain/Taboola? I understand there's some tracking going on but is there anything over the top?
They are less sneaky and have less reach than Google and Facebook - but are comparable (they provide some value to users, but mostly to advertisers at the expense of users - and they keep most of that value for themselves. On a smaller scale)
Why do you expect them (or Israelis in general) to decide that’s not the right thing to do? Do you expect the same of Google or Facebook? Or Americans for that matter?
Why do you expect them (or Israelis in general) to decide that’s not the right thing to do? Do you expect the same of Google or Facebook? Or Americans for that matter?
> “Most Israelis think that intelligence is pure and slick,” he says. He came to see IDF intelligence as blunt, dirty work. “Old school things,” he says. Like blackmailing gay Palestinians, he explains. Or threatening to cut off medical care from people with health problems. Or threatening the families of people with health problems. But when it comes to criticism of 8200, K. is an anomaly among his peers. Many are more like Raphael Ouzan — true believers.
I was in 8200 and this sounds like rubbish to me. unit 8200 doesn't directly deal with human intelligence: they don't contact Palestinians/threaten them.
This stuff is done, don't get me wrong, but that's the Shabak's doing. Shabak has way more tools to gather this kinds of info (vast network of snitches, really good Arabic experts etc) and can also use this info since Shabak deals with Palestinians directly.
BTW the cooperation between army intelligence and Shabak is shit, at least that's how it was in my days. So I doubt any data about gays is passed from 8200 to Shabak.
I call bullshit, sorry.
Literally every intelligence service does this, they're called "assets"[1]. Right and wrong isn't as black and white as you may think.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_(intelligence)
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_(intelligence)
I think blackmailing someone in the closet is almost always wrong -- I'm sure there's some contrived edge case that could be thought of, but as a whole, it's never okay.
Just because most / all intelligence agencies do something doesn't mean it's okay. It's unambiguously wrong.
Just because most / all intelligence agencies do something doesn't mean it's okay. It's unambiguously wrong.
dagav(3)
Other intelligence services do not do this to people they have subjugated.
It is roughly equivalent to if the CIA did this to Black Americans pre-1965.
It is roughly equivalent to if the CIA did this to Black Americans pre-1965.
Bayard Rustin (who was pro-Israel btw) would like a word
[deleted]
>Why do you expect them (or Israelis in general) to decide that’s not the right thing to do? Do you expect the same of Google or Facebook? Or Americans for that matter?
Google and Facebook are hacking journalist's phones and selling access to dictators for the purpose of planning an execution? Citation?
Google and Facebook are hacking journalist's phones and selling access to dictators for the purpose of planning an execution? Citation?
GP was talking about Outbrain and Taboola who are not as far as I know hacking anyone’s emails. That was what I was responding to.
It's dirty as all heck. The people who run it are cowboys too I've heard.
Might be unpopular opinion but I think these do more damage than these private intelligence corporations. they ARE private intelligence corporations, just not (well not exactly) offensive cyber.
they are entirely based on fake news
Writing code is a great way to make money in the desert. Israel is essentially an island. Also, warfare in the future is likely to be primarily digital, and Israel has many enemies. Israel will lead the cybersecurity and cyberwarfare industries out of sheer necessity.
The cold war never ended, it just moved to cyber space, might as well call it world war 3.
also, we made peace with 7 countries that's excellent news! and more to come.
also, we made peace with 7 countries that's excellent news! and more to come.
I don't think warfare will be primarily digital. Similar things were said about airpower, artillery, and naval power. Ultimately you need boots on the ground. If you rely too much on any one thing the enemy will route around it.
Why invade a country, when you can shut down its infrastructure and force them to surrender? War isn't won by killing, its won by conquering. I also suspect that machines will be so effective at killing, that you won't be able to find soldiers stupid enough to fight them head to head. We have yet to see the full capabilities of a cyber super power.
I find it hard to imagine a scenario in which all of the relevant infrastructure is shutdown to such a degree that it forces a country to surrender.
What if you could shut down their water processing plants? Their electricity grid? Their internet? How long would it take for that state to collapse?
The problem is you are assuming you can do that. Not everything is connected to the internet, and there are backups. You can probably shutdown power for a couple days (and a couple more weeks to be back up to full power), but you can only pull that trick once or twice before they start taking action. It isn't hard to disconnect internet cables (shut down all internet and force the operators to use personal cell phones...).
Likewise, water processing is mostly pumps. Even better, any competent town has backup generators and they keep a few days of fuel on hand, so even if you get the grid down there is water, and the system can function without internet.
That isn't to say you can't annoy life for everyone. However state collapse won't happen because of that. More likely you firm up the resolve to fight.
Likewise, water processing is mostly pumps. Even better, any competent town has backup generators and they keep a few days of fuel on hand, so even if you get the grid down there is water, and the system can function without internet.
That isn't to say you can't annoy life for everyone. However state collapse won't happen because of that. More likely you firm up the resolve to fight.
That stuff is so distributed and so heterogenous that I just don't think a successful attack of that sort is likely.
Edit: Maybe the most sophisticated attack of that sort was the one against the Iranian nuclear program, and while it was successful it and seems to have set back the program it was hardly a show stopper. It also required pretty specialized knowledge of the controllers used to operate the centrifuges (for enriching the fuel). If you consider the enormous variety of controllers and ways of doing things across different plants I just don't see how it would work to shut down a large fraction of even something like power generation.
Edit: Maybe the most sophisticated attack of that sort was the one against the Iranian nuclear program, and while it was successful it and seems to have set back the program it was hardly a show stopper. It also required pretty specialized knowledge of the controllers used to operate the centrifuges (for enriching the fuel). If you consider the enormous variety of controllers and ways of doing things across different plants I just don't see how it would work to shut down a large fraction of even something like power generation.
I suppose, I just have a feeling that the most powerful capabilities of cyber super powers are yet to be seen.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/cyber-attacks-again-hit-israel...
here's a scenario.
here's a scenario.
That talks about poisoning hundreds of people, which would be a tragedy, but not all that unusual for a war. Hundreds of people dying is hardly going to decide a war.
Edit: My point isn't that cyberattacks can't cause real damage. They can and there are many examples of them doing that already. My point is that they aren't enough to win a war because they are by their nature specialized and restricted in scope.
Edit: My point isn't that cyberattacks can't cause real damage. They can and there are many examples of them doing that already. My point is that they aren't enough to win a war because they are by their nature specialized and restricted in scope.
Yes, Atlas in boots. many of them. (boston dynamic)
Maybe. I trust people more than machines for the near/moderate future.
Most of the Israeli population doesn't live in the desert.
More than half of Israel's land area is desert. It's quite hard to develop a nation in the desert.
It's also part of mythology of Israel that it was built on an empty wasteland, and not on the ashes of Palestinian villages and farms.
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dagav(1)
Yep. Population density map: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/isr... almost all the population lives near the sea.
the point was "with not so much natural ressources"
Military systems will probably become provably secure before the next great war.
The situation will be totally different than on the commercial side.
The situation will be totally different than on the commercial side.
I'm glad that there is some internal opposition to the Israeli cyberterrorism trade. However, it is sad that K does not feel that they can come out openly about their position in famously the only democracy in the middle east.
I don't think people understand the devastation caused by just one of NSO's sales. Every country should teach in school the true cost of their own arms trades.
Depressingly it seems peace can only be found within a weapons contract. How long do we wait for stability and freedom? Which arms shareholder's bank balance needs to be satiated before we can have peace?
This community is full of talented and privileged people, if you are reading this I compel you to not lift a single finger in the way of another person's demise - no matter how sophisticated the abstraction or large the paycheck.
I don't think people understand the devastation caused by just one of NSO's sales. Every country should teach in school the true cost of their own arms trades.
Depressingly it seems peace can only be found within a weapons contract. How long do we wait for stability and freedom? Which arms shareholder's bank balance needs to be satiated before we can have peace?
This community is full of talented and privileged people, if you are reading this I compel you to not lift a single finger in the way of another person's demise - no matter how sophisticated the abstraction or large the paycheck.
> in famously the only democracy in the middle east.
Except it isn't. Just because you draw an arbitrary border between the populations under your control doesn't mean those people don't exists.
Israel is in control of these population, and they have no right to vote.
In my opinion that makes them not worthy of being called a democracy.
Except it isn't. Just because you draw an arbitrary border between the populations under your control doesn't mean those people don't exists.
Israel is in control of these population, and they have no right to vote.
In my opinion that makes them not worthy of being called a democracy.
Israel doesn't want to own or control these populations. The west bank is largely self governing, and Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip and helped orchestrate free elections there. Not exactly the same, but if quebec separated from canada and attempted to join the united states, was rejected, and then was self policing but monitored for crime by the US government in response to periodic violence, would you say the US is therefore not a democracy since they barred the people of Quebec from joining the country? Alternatively, if some of the people in Quebec said the US shouldn't exist and devoted the government to eliminating the US, and the US responded with a naval blockade to prevent arms from being shipped to Quebec, would you then conclude that the US is not a democracy? I think you can definitely question Israel's handling of interactions with the West Bank, especially around the military interactions. But I wouldn't say that Israel isn't a democracy. There are people in Israel who want to annex those territories, and make the people in them citizens. But most people in the territories and in Israel don't want that. The people of the territories refuse to be annexed, and most Israelis don't want to annex them.
Israeli armed forces have been in control of these population for 50 years. The West bank is basically a patch work of Bantustan-style territories surrounded by Israel controlled territory.
Israel controls most of the resources, like water and most of the infrastructure. Those things are made available to Israeli settlers but Palestinians are barley allowed to move from one Bantustan to another.
At the very same time as Israel claims not to be responsible for that area, they also claim the right to move in 10000s of people people into that very area every year.
Israel went out of those territories because close domination is expensive, however simply surrounding the territories, taking their resources and restricting their movement is a cheaper way to control the population.
Israel controls most of the resources, like water and most of the infrastructure. Those things are made available to Israeli settlers but Palestinians are barley allowed to move from one Bantustan to another.
At the very same time as Israel claims not to be responsible for that area, they also claim the right to move in 10000s of people people into that very area every year.
Israel went out of those territories because close domination is expensive, however simply surrounding the territories, taking their resources and restricting their movement is a cheaper way to control the population.
sagiegurari(10)
Similarly, K. says much of the work he did inside Unit 8200 is far from the sophisticated spyware that’s so often trumpeted. “Most Israelis think that intelligence is pure and slick,” he says. He came to see IDF intelligence as blunt, dirty work. “Old school things,” he says. Like blackmailing gay Palestinians, he explains. Or threatening to cut off medical care from people with health problems. Or threatening the families of people with health problems. But when it comes to criticism of 8200, K. is an anomaly among his peers. Many are more like Raphael Ouzan — true believers.
This is serious because many leaders especially in developing countries where democracy is relatively young are using the same technologies to spy on opposition leaders and activists. Many people are dying and are running away from their homeland because Israel technology is enabling dictators and shrinking the rights of others.
Some years ago I had an interview from a cybersecurity startup founded by a member of 8200 unit.
It was the worst process selection ever: they ask me to perform a demo (with my own hardware, in the nights and weekends) and at least 5 interviews with several VPs and company's key persons. The process seems going well, they made me lot of promises, they told me that we was only two in the final selection step, but suddendly they disappeared and they completely ghosted me.
I send several emails to the HR but he did not reply. At the end, I mailed the headhunter that found me on LinkedIn and he told me that they took other decisions.
This was very unpolite by them, I wasted lot of private time for nothing.
I don't want to do whataboutism and I completely agree that international arms trade is a seriously evil, especially with the kind of partners the article mentions...
But I really don't like the overall tone of the article and the way it paints Israel as uniquely nefarious. Eg:
> In the Israeli cyberweapon sector, he argues, “the companies are implementing government policy.” Mack says Israeli companies are not truly private, like their European or American counterparts. “Israel has so much military sensitivity” that, in effect, many of these cyberweapon sales are “military agreements between governments.”
Oh please.
You will never find an arm sales from French, British or American companies that wasn't mediated on some level by their respective government.
In France the top executives of weapons companies (eg Dassault, Thales) often come from the same school (ENA) as the political elite, and are always well connected to whoever the current president and ministers are. Thales in particular is owned at 25% by the government.
Israel plays the same game everyone else in the world plays, they just happen to have a more immediate stake in it. Any discussion of weapon sales that doesn't mention the broader picture is misleading at best.
But I really don't like the overall tone of the article and the way it paints Israel as uniquely nefarious. Eg:
> In the Israeli cyberweapon sector, he argues, “the companies are implementing government policy.” Mack says Israeli companies are not truly private, like their European or American counterparts. “Israel has so much military sensitivity” that, in effect, many of these cyberweapon sales are “military agreements between governments.”
Oh please.
You will never find an arm sales from French, British or American companies that wasn't mediated on some level by their respective government.
In France the top executives of weapons companies (eg Dassault, Thales) often come from the same school (ENA) as the political elite, and are always well connected to whoever the current president and ministers are. Thales in particular is owned at 25% by the government.
Israel plays the same game everyone else in the world plays, they just happen to have a more immediate stake in it. Any discussion of weapon sales that doesn't mention the broader picture is misleading at best.
Is there any sense of how many 8200-grad founded companies are in the "sketchy" side (not sure what other word to use) of cyber-security?
The article mentions 4, and implies the rest of the 700 mentioned are similar.
The article mentions 4, and implies the rest of the 700 mentioned are similar.
What is non-sketchy offensive cyber-security to you?
Selling services for democracies that will use it for counter terrorism? There are legitimate use for offensive cyber security
> A 2018 study cited by Haaretz estimated that 80% of the 2,300 people who founded Israel’s 700 cybersecurity companies had come through IDF intelligence.
The specific quote is that 8200 grads have founded a large number of cyber security companies in general, and the article follows by discussing specific offensive and surveillance ones (NSO, etc.). My read of the article is that it implies that most of the 700 companies are similar. The link for the study links to a paywalled article about the survey.
Since defensive cyber security is a bigger market, I'd like to know if 8200 grads found offensive companies at a significantly higher rate than defensive ones.
The specific quote is that 8200 grads have founded a large number of cyber security companies in general, and the article follows by discussing specific offensive and surveillance ones (NSO, etc.). My read of the article is that it implies that most of the 700 companies are similar. The link for the study links to a paywalled article about the survey.
Since defensive cyber security is a bigger market, I'd like to know if 8200 grads found offensive companies at a significantly higher rate than defensive ones.
I follow the field, and I'd say defensive companies (anti malware, intrusion detection, monitoring, anti fraud etc.) outnumber offensive companies 100-to-1.
[deleted]
Citizen Lab has covered NSO Group extensively, just search for HN comments or stories ("nso citizen lab"). What NSO Group's selling is much scarier in reality (with more details) than what this article presents (I just skimmed the article).
Maintaining an apartheid regime where half the population is subject to military rule will require big investments in this. I guess it’s profitable for them after all.
Odd this article doesn't mention the iSentry CCTV surveillance system.
It literally identifies and tracks individual people all day.
Spooky stuff.
It literally identifies and tracks individual people all day.
Spooky stuff.
Do you have any more information about that? It sounds really interesting, and I think my family used to actually have iSentry cameras at an old house.
whearyou(2)
Once they are officially seen as an apartheid state it will all go away.
keyme(1)
solosoyokaze(12)
> Behind NSO Group, there are many more. Cellebrite offers services to reconstruct data deleted from devices. NSO’s sister company Circles sells the ability to locate a person’s physical location using only their phone number.
Terrifying stuff. All this makes me wonder: nowadays, how are citizens living under oppressive governments ever to conceivably organise any kind of resistance? Such pervasive and all-encompassing surveillance makes it impossible that any kind of opposition can ever be mounted, if citizens can be monitored everywhere at all times. Absolutely depressing stuff.