Do countries get the list of every passenger that's transiting their airspace?(travel.stackexchange.com)
travel.stackexchange.com
Do countries get the list of every passenger that's transiting their airspace?
https://travel.stackexchange.com/q/163892/101
127 コメント
Citation needed. Anybody can become a travel agent with a GDS subscription, but how exactly would I leverage that to get flight manifests for other people? Airlines guard anything that smacks like seat utilization data jealously, which is why even the GDS will never show more than 9 seats open in any fare class.
You type LP/ABC123/MAY25 and pull up the loading list.
This doesn't give you information about load factors or overbooking profiles which is the actually commercially sensitive information.
This doesn't give you information about load factors or overbooking profiles which is the actually commercially sensitive information.
Well, damn, I stand corrected. Here's the documentation for the List Passengers (LP) command on Amadeus:
http://www.amadeus.com/ir/documents/aco/ir/en/Quick6.pdf
http://www.amadeus.com/ir/documents/aco/ir/en/Quick6.pdf
Yes, please. I'm sure all nation states and intelligence agencies have complete access, but to say any travel agent also has travel records of everyone for the past decade is an extraordinary statement that requires evidence.
I remember a C3 talk showing how ridiculously insecure these booking systems (GDS) were. You should assume every intelligence agency has their hands on this data, as it is shared among so many parties.
https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7964-where_in_the_world_is_carme...
https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7964-where_in_the_world_is_carme...
Yes, as far I know, every at least international flight from EU, the US gets the full information about every passenger, inclusive payment (credit card info).
SWIFT is headquartered in Belgium.
My bad
You were not completely wrong.
There is a long story of state agents trying to access SWIFT messages. At some point, SWIFT had to set up a backup data center in Switzerland in order to route European transactions within Europe. The other data center is in the Netherlands.
There is a long story of state agents trying to access SWIFT messages. At some point, SWIFT had to set up a backup data center in Switzerland in order to route European transactions within Europe. The other data center is in the Netherlands.
...And the American data center is not far from NSA HQ.
And they do not have a data center in Asia.
And they do not have a data center in Asia.
Just a side note - it's peculiar how we use "googling" as a synonym of searching. The guy you've mentioned won't be using google and I hope he doesn't have google on the device to fetch all necessary data
I don't think it is. While a lot of folks don't use google, a lot of folks do, and have for a while. It isn't like it is the first time a brand became something more: Band-aid and Kleenex are items as well as brands, for example. You might Xerox that contract, too, even though you probably aren't using a Xerox brand machine to do so. Maybe you call all soda a "coke" - and asked someone, "What flavor of coke do you want?" - with Mountain Dew being a perfectly acceptable answer. (This last example isn't as widespread).
While not completely alien here in the UK, using brand names for generic concepts is a bit of an Americanism (perhaps because of a cultural tendency to glorify private business?)
"Band-aids" are plasters (short for sticking plasters) here, and "Kleenex" are tissues (even if they're actually kleenex branded).
Having said that, to "google" something or to "photoshop" something are both in common usage here. I suspect the difference has to do with the dominance of those products in their respective categories meaning that chances are you really will be using google or photoshop when you look something up. Although I can't imagine someone here using "google" in the context above to denote a specific, clearly non-google, search tool.
"Band-aids" are plasters (short for sticking plasters) here, and "Kleenex" are tissues (even if they're actually kleenex branded).
Having said that, to "google" something or to "photoshop" something are both in common usage here. I suspect the difference has to do with the dominance of those products in their respective categories meaning that chances are you really will be using google or photoshop when you look something up. Although I can't imagine someone here using "google" in the context above to denote a specific, clearly non-google, search tool.
A widespread example of this phenomenon in Poland is calling a particular form factor of shoes "adidas" (plural: "adidasy"), regardless of the brand or manufacturer. In fact, I can't think of another word to refer to this shoe category. Another one is "kserokopiarka" for "photocopier" (and thus "skserować" for "to photocopy"), which derives from Xerox. And I think using "jeep" (pronounced as in English) for a class of cars is also common. And, of course, we Google stuff on the Internet instead of looking it up.
But other than these, I don't recall any popular examples of brands turning into generic nouns in Polish.
But other than these, I don't recall any popular examples of brands turning into generic nouns in Polish.
To "xerox" is or was to photocopy, in the US too.
At least in my circle no one is asking to pass the 'chocolate hazelnut spread' everyone calls it Nutella, even if it is not the Ferrero brand. Not US
I think it's cultural. We have some brand names where I believe Americans don't, for example. For example, we hoover where Americans vacuum.
Jeep is another example that got plenty of use outside America, only really falling out of use in the last while as casual use of that type of vehicle got replaced by SUVs.
A jeep (in the casual, not the brand sense) is a different thing than a SUV though? When I think of "jeep", I think of a Jeep Wrangler-type vehicle, which is a much different thing than a SUV.
Right, but people who 20 years ago for reasons other than needing the ruggedness would have driven jeeps now mostly drive SUVs.
I'm not saying that people call them SUVs now. I'm saying they buy SUVs instead if they just want a big vehicle to use on road.
I'm not saying that people call them SUVs now. I'm saying they buy SUVs instead if they just want a big vehicle to use on road.
Does google still make search appliances?
I had thought that it was discontinued years ago, but apparently they only started phasing it out in 2016 and finally shut it down in 2019. [1]
[1] https://www.cmswire.com/information-management/google-search...
[1] https://www.cmswire.com/information-management/google-search...
[deleted]
Not sure what country you're referring to but I highly doubt border control agents have access to parking tickets.
Typical HN comment that assumes technical feasibility is the only limiting factor in the universe.
But they do? You have to pay any open fines before you leave the country. At least that's how it works here.
Nah. First they make the car rental company figure out who you were, so they can late charge your credit card for their trouble. Then they wait an year or so before figuring out where you live, before mailing the invoice to you, so they can claim 2x to 4x late fees in addition to the original fine.
And then you have to go through the trouble of contacting them to figure out if it's a real claim, or just someone trying to scam you.
Edit: I've only heard a third party account on this, but I have no reason to doubt the validity.
And then you have to go through the trouble of contacting them to figure out if it's a real claim, or just someone trying to scam you.
Edit: I've only heard a third party account on this, but I have no reason to doubt the validity.
I was on a trip in 2019 where some members of the group were stopped at the airport terminal to pay minor traffic fines (crosswalk stuff, iirc). They weren't allowed to depart until they paid.
[deleted]
where exactly?
[deleted]
I once wanted to board a plane from Havanna to Europe and because of a computer glitch my clearance for the US airspace didn’t get approved. So they nearly took off without me.
After 20 minutes of trying to get it approved, they found out that I was checked in twice, and got two seats assigned. The other boarding pass got the confirmation and seemed to prevent the second confirmation. So they took away my boarding pass, and told me to hurry to the plane (a 767 parked directly in front of the gate). I jumped in 5 minutes after scheduled departure time and before I could even get seated they stated push back :D.
After 20 minutes of trying to get it approved, they found out that I was checked in twice, and got two seats assigned. The other boarding pass got the confirmation and seemed to prevent the second confirmation. So they took away my boarding pass, and told me to hurry to the plane (a 767 parked directly in front of the gate). I jumped in 5 minutes after scheduled departure time and before I could even get seated they stated push back :D.
I once managed to board the wrong plane but I was recorded as being on the other plane. I was checked into the other plane, so they couldn't take off without me, and the plane I was on had to let me off.
It was a huge fiasco; I had to get off the plane after it left the gate, hitch a ride with security to the correct plane. I got chewed out by both pilots... security held me in the back of the car asking me how I did it. I really had no idea how I did it.
It turns out the gate was changed and I didn't notice. I also scanned my boarding pass several times at the gate by holding it over the scanner too long. It turned out that when you've already scanned at the gate, it wouldn't tell the attendant your flight information, just that it was already scanned. They wouldn't let me on the next plane until they figured all this out.
They've fixed this bug :) but that is how you successfully delay two flights and piss off some pilots.
It was a huge fiasco; I had to get off the plane after it left the gate, hitch a ride with security to the correct plane. I got chewed out by both pilots... security held me in the back of the car asking me how I did it. I really had no idea how I did it.
It turns out the gate was changed and I didn't notice. I also scanned my boarding pass several times at the gate by holding it over the scanner too long. It turned out that when you've already scanned at the gate, it wouldn't tell the attendant your flight information, just that it was already scanned. They wouldn't let me on the next plane until they figured all this out.
They've fixed this bug :) but that is how you successfully delay two flights and piss off some pilots.
This is the kind of thing where an airline only has itself to blame. It's disheartening that the people tasked to pilot both aircraft took issue with your actions when their own company's inept error handling was at fault.
It turns out it’s really hard to believe someone is on the wrong plane by accident. Initially, I was accused of trying to sneak on the plane. It was an international flight.
Please contribute concrete knowledge to Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_name_record#Internat... which is based on EU FOI requests not random hearsay.
(Full disclosure: I made the FOI and wrote it.)
(Full disclosure: I made the FOI and wrote it.)
I'm disappointed by the top answer: it doesn't seem to make a clear distinction between 'the airport' (a gigantic swath many types of workers, private, public ownership, etc.) and the authority which actually collects and processes passenger information inside of the airport.
1. My ID is scanned at the airline-owned kiosk/desk to "check in" and print a boarding pass. I'm in the public section of the airport. (Where does this data go?)
2. My ID is scanned by an authority at the security checkpoint (TSA). My boarding pass is now "linked" to a presumably verified ID. I'm in the "secure" section of the airport. (Where does this data go?)
3. My boarding pass (now linked to my ID) is scanned at the jetway as I board the plane. I'm on the plane. (Where does this data go?)
1. My ID is scanned at the airline-owned kiosk/desk to "check in" and print a boarding pass. I'm in the public section of the airport. (Where does this data go?)
2. My ID is scanned by an authority at the security checkpoint (TSA). My boarding pass is now "linked" to a presumably verified ID. I'm in the "secure" section of the airport. (Where does this data go?)
3. My boarding pass (now linked to my ID) is scanned at the jetway as I board the plane. I'm on the plane. (Where does this data go?)
Maybe that's how it works in America, but it doesn't mean it's the same everywhere. And given that the post was motivated by recent events in Europe it doesn't seem too relevant.
In Europe when you go through security no one checks your id. In fact most of the time when you fly inside Schengen with hand luggage only no one checks your id at all. But there definitely isn't something comparable to TSA that would have the information.
In Europe when you go through security no one checks your id. In fact most of the time when you fly inside Schengen with hand luggage only no one checks your id at all. But there definitely isn't something comparable to TSA that would have the information.
The last few years I have been flying, my ID has been checked before entering the security check. This was a recent change introduced a few years ago. I presume this is done everywhere in Europe.
Haven’t flown since covid, but from 2019 flights, Not in U.K. (ID only checked at gate - intl flights only) and Not in 3 schengen airports (ID only checked after security when leaving schengen area)
Don’t recall other airports enough but I didn’t do domestic flights. Nairobi I feel had more ID checks but could be wrong.
Don’t recall other airports enough but I didn’t do domestic flights. Nairobi I feel had more ID checks but could be wrong.
same experience here and I'm also all over Europe. The time when you could just fly without hassle only lasted a few years. Now I have to look into the empty eyes of some dweeb wanting to check my passport like I'm entering Beirut in 1982. I feel obliged to thank them out of artificial politeness but really want to just ask them why they had to get a job that allows them to display power. Not that these checks ever prevented a "terrorist" attack. Airports only catch small drug mules that could have taken a bus anyway.
Freedom of movement was one of the major selling points for joining the EU to the unwashed middle classes. That has all gone to the dogs (at least for business travel). The only advantage of free movement that still exists is being able to live and work in other countries.
It's typical when they do something in the name of "sEcURitY" they will never roll it back. Classic "salami tactic" and a slow encroachment by the system[1]. Opinions on this obviously vary depending if a person uses a uniform for work in order to compartmentalize their conscience, has to defend family working for the security apparatus, or peddles crappy/racist "AI based" biometric software to the system. Perhaps wanting to become a "person of authority" is like a gender thing which people have no choice over. So I shouldn't make fun or look down at them: ACAB ("Assigned Cop At Birth").
Also the worst of all countries has doubtlessly been the UK. Even you arrived coming from Europe, they shepherded you through the slow-lane like a smelly goat with noises that sound like Dick Van Dyke doing a Bricktop impression.
[1] https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSoci...
Freedom of movement was one of the major selling points for joining the EU to the unwashed middle classes. That has all gone to the dogs (at least for business travel). The only advantage of free movement that still exists is being able to live and work in other countries.
It's typical when they do something in the name of "sEcURitY" they will never roll it back. Classic "salami tactic" and a slow encroachment by the system[1]. Opinions on this obviously vary depending if a person uses a uniform for work in order to compartmentalize their conscience, has to defend family working for the security apparatus, or peddles crappy/racist "AI based" biometric software to the system. Perhaps wanting to become a "person of authority" is like a gender thing which people have no choice over. So I shouldn't make fun or look down at them: ACAB ("Assigned Cop At Birth").
Also the worst of all countries has doubtlessly been the UK. Even you arrived coming from Europe, they shepherded you through the slow-lane like a smelly goat with noises that sound like Dick Van Dyke doing a Bricktop impression.
[1] https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSoci...
Also in Europe, but with a completely different experience; it is (well, was, pre-covid) easy to move between EU states.
Within the Schengen Zone it's only the check at the gate to check your ID matches your boarding pass (so no check at "immigration"), and to/from the UK the electronic gates have really sped things up (compared to the old days).
YMMV but I find I'm rarely waiting more than a few minutes at the immigration checks (to/from UK) nowadays.
Within the Schengen Zone it's only the check at the gate to check your ID matches your boarding pass (so no check at "immigration"), and to/from the UK the electronic gates have really sped things up (compared to the old days).
YMMV but I find I'm rarely waiting more than a few minutes at the immigration checks (to/from UK) nowadays.
Tell that to France. They still do passport checks on flights coming in from Schengen countries.
Especially stupid since I’ll be flying into southern France from neighbouring Brussels or Frankfurt. Like, if I’m up to no good, I could drive into France more quickly.
They’re allowed to do it “temporarily”, so they just renew their exemption year after year.
Especially stupid since I’ll be flying into southern France from neighbouring Brussels or Frankfurt. Like, if I’m up to no good, I could drive into France more quickly.
They’re allowed to do it “temporarily”, so they just renew their exemption year after year.
interesting. this seems to indicate that Schengen countries decided on a national level if they wanted to do checks on their borders. I have seen hard passport checks within Schengen in Croatia, Sweden, Germany, France and Portugal.
Good to hear the UK has improved. I should have mentioned I haven't been there since 2018. I was expecting that brexit made things worse and had no idea
Good to hear the UK has improved. I should have mentioned I haven't been there since 2018. I was expecting that brexit made things worse and had no idea
Croatia is not part of Schengen so there shouldn't be any surprise about them doing the hard checks. They are hoping to enter this year.
Greece doesn't check ID at the airport either, beyond matching your boarding pass to your name.
Brexit didn't really kick in until January this year, and covid impact masks any brexit impact
This really doesn’t add up. Who was performing these hard passport checks? An airline employee? Where was your flight originating from/going to?
France does them. Can confirm on flights from Brussels and Frankfurt.
Allowed “Temporarily” under “extenuating” circumstances and “only as a last resort”, so they renew it every year and have provided zero proof of its effectiveness. It’s just theatre.
If they applied it to road traffic too, then, okay, fine at the airport too. But checking passports of people coming in from a neighbouring country by air only is beyond stupid.
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/border...
Extra do-nothing jobs at Toulouse airport that receives few non-Schengen flights.
Allowed “Temporarily” under “extenuating” circumstances and “only as a last resort”, so they renew it every year and have provided zero proof of its effectiveness. It’s just theatre.
If they applied it to road traffic too, then, okay, fine at the airport too. But checking passports of people coming in from a neighbouring country by air only is beyond stupid.
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/border...
Extra do-nothing jobs at Toulouse airport that receives few non-Schengen flights.
it was done by a customs official. long queue and everyone on the plane had to do it every time that I was there. I've never entered the UK without having to go through this.
Dublin -> Heathrow
Frankfurt -> Heathrow
Stockholm -> Heathrow
... and as I said I have seen similar things arriving in Frankfurt (in 2017 and 2018) and other places (Dublin -> Zagreb etc)
Dublin -> Heathrow
Frankfurt -> Heathrow
Stockholm -> Heathrow
... and as I said I have seen similar things arriving in Frankfurt (in 2017 and 2018) and other places (Dublin -> Zagreb etc)
None of these routes were within Schengen, of course you’re going through border control when flying to the UK.
If you think some dweeb checking your ID is a serious impediment to freedom of movement, I invite you to do a few dozen border crossings outside the EU.
The ID requirement to fly is not great, but it is nothing like actual border controls.
The ID requirement to fly is not great, but it is nothing like actual border controls.
that is only true if you compare EU to Overtheristan but not to how free movement was sold to EU voters. My comparison is based on what people voted for which was much closer to the concept of a US citizen taking a domestic flight.
US citizens taking domestic flights have to show ID.
I did not know that. Some websites claim US nationals do not need a passport to travel domestically https://www.skyscanner.com/tips-and-inspiration/editorial/pa...
and while in 2021 europa.eu website says EU nationals do not need a passport to travel within Schengen this has already been not true before covid. Arrive at FRA or MUC or CDG and you will end up having to show your passport either at a manned booth or a machine (but the concept is no different: there is a queue and your name/geolocation entering the system ... actually even worse with the machine when they capture your biometrics)
and while in 2021 europa.eu website says EU nationals do not need a passport to travel within Schengen this has already been not true before covid. Arrive at FRA or MUC or CDG and you will end up having to show your passport either at a manned booth or a machine (but the concept is no different: there is a queue and your name/geolocation entering the system ... actually even worse with the machine when they capture your biometrics)
I think you are mixing id with passport. I doubt that you need a passport to fly internally in US. I know that as a EU citizen you absolutely do not need a passport to fly within the EU but you do need some form of id.
I will point out that having to show a passport to fly is not the same thing as doing a real border crossing.
A few reasons for it:
1. The 'dweeb' at the airport doesn't assume you are a criminal/drug smuggler/thief who is coming to steal his country's jobs.
2. Border guards can, and frequently do exercise their discretion at turning you away, or making your life very uncomfortable for the next 15 minutes -> 8 hours.
3. Being nervous when dealing with border guards is further evidence that you are hiding something from them.
4. Border guards care very deeply about who you are traveling with, and your relationship with them, where you are going, why you are going there, and who you are going to meet when you get there. The 'dweeb' at the airport only cares that you can show proof that you are who you say you are.
Which particular piece of ID you have to show before you board a plane is largely a technicality (And you can do some US -> Canada border crossings with only an enhanced driver's license). It's the everything else that makes border controls suck. I would far rather show my ID and be waved through, than not have to show my ID, and be subjected to all the other regular border controls.
A few reasons for it:
1. The 'dweeb' at the airport doesn't assume you are a criminal/drug smuggler/thief who is coming to steal his country's jobs.
2. Border guards can, and frequently do exercise their discretion at turning you away, or making your life very uncomfortable for the next 15 minutes -> 8 hours.
3. Being nervous when dealing with border guards is further evidence that you are hiding something from them.
4. Border guards care very deeply about who you are traveling with, and your relationship with them, where you are going, why you are going there, and who you are going to meet when you get there. The 'dweeb' at the airport only cares that you can show proof that you are who you say you are.
Which particular piece of ID you have to show before you board a plane is largely a technicality (And you can do some US -> Canada border crossings with only an enhanced driver's license). It's the everything else that makes border controls suck. I would far rather show my ID and be waved through, than not have to show my ID, and be subjected to all the other regular border controls.
You do not need a passport although you can use one. A driver’s license or other government issued ID is sufficient. It may even be possible to fly without an ID, like if it was stolen or lost, but it would be a holy mess. The comedian Hannibal Burress has a funny bit about it.
In Kentucky (at least back in the day), several people who knew you a long time, vouching for your identity was all that was required to be that person. I wonder if anyone ever tried it to get on a flight?
You need an ID (like a national ID, I think health insurance or equivalent might work as well), not necessarily a passport. Really, every country pretty much requires this.
(Or you're arriving from a non-Schengen country)
(Or you're arriving from a non-Schengen country)
Someone is checking your passport so they know it’s the person who is on the ticket. It’s not a conspiracy to collect ids because the government already has all the information on the ID and you had to identify yourself to buy the ticket.
The difference due to the Schengen Agreement is that on landing you can just pick up your luggage and go, there is no border patrol checking your belongings.
The difference due to the Schengen Agreement is that on landing you can just pick up your luggage and go, there is no border patrol checking your belongings.
> Also the worst of all countries has doubtlessly been the UK
UK is pay to play, for a reasonable amount (600GBP at LGW and ~1k at LHR IIRC) of money you can be the first to exit your plane and be taken through the private jet terminal without any queues. You wait in a nice lounge where a Border Force person takes you through the formalities while you sit in a comfy armchair.
UK is pay to play, for a reasonable amount (600GBP at LGW and ~1k at LHR IIRC) of money you can be the first to exit your plane and be taken through the private jet terminal without any queues. You wait in a nice lounge where a Border Force person takes you through the formalities while you sit in a comfy armchair.
If you take an international railway journey in the EU it’s very civilised indeed, just rock up to the station, scan your ticket through to the platform and away you go.
I’ve experienced this taking the Thalys to Brussels from Amsterdam, to catch an onward connection to London.
I’ve experienced this taking the Thalys to Brussels from Amsterdam, to catch an onward connection to London.
I frequent a airports in the eu where they do and where they don't: seems to depend on the country and maybe the airport. The number of places where it happens went up.
I fly around europe on almost a weekly basis to and from a wide variety of airports. My ID has never been checked before security.
I think maybe you’re confusing the checkin where you might show your passport with an ID check? You can completely bypass this by checking in online, and the airline doesn’t actually inspect your ID anyway.
I think maybe you’re confusing the checkin where you might show your passport with an ID check? You can completely bypass this by checking in online, and the airline doesn’t actually inspect your ID anyway.
It depends on the airline and airport. For example Lufthansa typically doesn't check IDs.
True, nobody is even checking your ID at all gor domestic flights. I had one business trip in Germany, including two flights, i did without my valet, and thus without any piece of ID. The eTicket was enough.
I've traveled all over Asia and the above procedure is how they do it everywhere.
>1. My ID is scanned at the airline-owned kiosk/desk to "check in" and print a boarding pass. I'm in the public section of the airport. (Where does this data go?)
Airline Reservation System
>2. My ID is scanned by an authority at the security checkpoint (TSA). My boarding pass is now "linked" to a presumably verified ID. I'm in the "secure" section of the airport. (Where does this data go?)
Department of Homeland Security/Fed Gov Agencies
>3. My boarding pass (now linked to my ID) is scanned at the jetway as I board the plane. I'm on the plane. (Where does this data go?)
Goes to the Airline Reservation System and is shared with FAA/DHS/NO FLY LIST and if travel is International, it will be sent (before the plane leaves the gate) to the Destination Country to be checked by their Customs/Immigration/NO FLY LIST/Police. You will not be permitted to board if you show up on the NO FLY LIST.
Airline Reservation System
>2. My ID is scanned by an authority at the security checkpoint (TSA). My boarding pass is now "linked" to a presumably verified ID. I'm in the "secure" section of the airport. (Where does this data go?)
Department of Homeland Security/Fed Gov Agencies
>3. My boarding pass (now linked to my ID) is scanned at the jetway as I board the plane. I'm on the plane. (Where does this data go?)
Goes to the Airline Reservation System and is shared with FAA/DHS/NO FLY LIST and if travel is International, it will be sent (before the plane leaves the gate) to the Destination Country to be checked by their Customs/Immigration/NO FLY LIST/Police. You will not be permitted to board if you show up on the NO FLY LIST.
You forgot booking databases.
90+% of flights go through either Amadeus, or Sabre, which were of course long coopted by governments around the world to provide every piece of data possible.
This way Russia knows where to send their hitmen to kill political opposition, Israel spies on Palestinians travel around the world, and US knows when to send extradition requests for Russian carders when they travel abroad.
90+% of flights go through either Amadeus, or Sabre, which were of course long coopted by governments around the world to provide every piece of data possible.
This way Russia knows where to send their hitmen to kill political opposition, Israel spies on Palestinians travel around the world, and US knows when to send extradition requests for Russian carders when they travel abroad.
This. I worked at NCR building the kiosks at the airport. We integrated with Amadeus and Sabre as well as duplicating the data directly to the BOSS systems (old terminal mainframes).
Your passenger information and your itinerary are shared with TSA, Airlines, published to travel systems, and checked against NO-FLY lists the moment you press that “Get boarding pass” button. Whether it be by an agent, at the kiosk, or on mobile.
Your passenger information and your itinerary are shared with TSA, Airlines, published to travel systems, and checked against NO-FLY lists the moment you press that “Get boarding pass” button. Whether it be by an agent, at the kiosk, or on mobile.
Is there anyway to buy/book directly instead going through this Amadeus, and this Sabre software you mention?
Not anymore there isn't. All bookings go through one of the travel systems (Amadeus or Sabre). There's no skirting around it unless you fly a private jet and even then, some share passenger manifests with FAA to clear no-fly lists when they file their IFR plans.
So only the wealthy, can avoid sharing their travel info with whoever else is reading this data... What a shame
Nope. It’s the mainframe software airlines use for “computerized check-in” and the ability to list flights from different airlines for different legs of the same journey, just like banks use mainframes designed for checking accounts or companies use ERP systems or governments make budgets. Outside of actually flying and maintaining planes, these systems are deeply integrated to how airlines coordinate between each other, how airports show flight information and so on. We’ll replace them when the last person uses a physical VISA card (probably never…)
Another way of putting it: whatever replaces these systems will likely be forced to do the same thing, so why bother?
Another way of putting it: whatever replaces these systems will likely be forced to do the same thing, so why bother?
To further this, any systems designed to "replace" these systems must also first talk to these systems and provide identical functionality. This was the case with the old BOSS systems we had to integrate with using term screen scraping and pushing text-based booking codes. The same codes used by agents at the ticking counter when you see them type 500 characters just to look you up in their systems. Only now, they aren't interacting with the BOSS system anymore, it's Amadeus or Sabre they are interacting with.
It's a choice by the airline - if they handle their bookings through it, then also direct bookings will go there because they need to have a shared view such as knowing what seats are available/sold. There are various tiny airlines that book directly, but the vast majority of flights aren't with them.
Fly private?
In some cases, private carriers also share passenger manifests to Sabre along with their approved IFR plan. They call it PNR. Passenger Name Registry.
Fly VFR instead of IFR?
Yup. You have to stay under the airspace but this or GPS is one way of hiding yourself from the major GDS systems.
Since they were interested in this specific person, the reports that they had someone following him at the airport are probably correct. That would be the easiest/cheapest way of being sure he's there and actually on the plane.
But it also risks the agents being arrested if something went wrong (especially since their behavior was outwardly suspicious) and could be seen as a much more serious aggression since it involved a physical intrusion into the country's territory. I don't get why they even needed agents on the plane at all.
> I don't get why they even needed agents on the plane at all.
They had to be sure he boarded that flight and didn't get off after he boarded.
> And could be seen as a much more serious aggression.
To me it looks like this was a deliberately not very aggressive way of snatching him. The alternative would be to snatch him of the street and smuggle him to Belarus. The logistics would be a lot harder and the diplomatic implications a lot more dire.
They had to be sure he boarded that flight and didn't get off after he boarded.
> And could be seen as a much more serious aggression.
To me it looks like this was a deliberately not very aggressive way of snatching him. The alternative would be to snatch him of the street and smuggle him to Belarus. The logistics would be a lot harder and the diplomatic implications a lot more dire.
Perhaps to avoid a mistake -- they could only expect one chance at this. For a while now, far fewer intra-Schengen flights will overfly Belarus, and people in the journalist's situation will now book two-leg flights to be certain they won't cross Belarus (or Russia).
> I don't get why they even needed agents on the plane at all.
To extract them from Greece (an EU country) and avoid their arrest?
To extract them from Greece (an EU country) and avoid their arrest?
I’m more inclined to believe the Belorussian intelligence knew ahead of time the details, and acted. Absolutely distasteful.
It looks like the Belarus KGB was on the flight anyway - presumably the journalist was being followed/tracked:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/24/belarus-seizur...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/24/belarus-seizur...
I think that’s obvious. Probably they even have agents with EU citizenship that can move freely around Europe.
It would have been ironic if the flight was overbooked and they couldn't buy a ticket/board.
Within the EU, flights rarely get overbooked. Especially on cheap flights like with Ryanair, the reimbursement that the airline has to provide in case of overbooking can easily be more than 10x the ticket value.
The cultural difference between the US and Europe is very interesting. In the US, when a flight is overbooked, the airline is allowed to bump anyone if they provide good enough compensation. Usually what happens is the airline “auctions” being bumped where they keep upping the “benefit” for staying. Usually that’s just a voucher for the next flight out, a gift card for the future, and a nights stay in a hotel. “We’re sorry we got greedy, and made you miss your multi million dollar business deal, and it fell through. Here’s some money that you can only spend with us. We hope to see you soon!”
At the extreme, if no one takes the offer, they’ll just bump some rando and you have to pray it’s not you.
Of course, nothing is done about it because it doesn’t happen enough for enough people to complain. I also bet that the airline’s systems are programmed to never choose a powerful enough person for the rando being bumped. You wouldn’t want to bump a Congressperson, right? That’d be just rude!
At the extreme, if no one takes the offer, they’ll just bump some rando and you have to pray it’s not you.
Of course, nothing is done about it because it doesn’t happen enough for enough people to complain. I also bet that the airline’s systems are programmed to never choose a powerful enough person for the rando being bumped. You wouldn’t want to bump a Congressperson, right? That’d be just rude!
I’m sure they have a list of VIPs, but just “frequent flyer” seniority is a good proxy that sorts the powerful from the plebs.
Just curious, but why wouldn’t one expect reliably repeat customers to be treated with increased consideration in these circumstances?
Seems to me this is true in pretty much every industry, yet for some reason with flights, certain folks (likely not the FFers) get very upset to realize their price sensitivity/lack of airline stickiness moved them to the back of the line.
Seems to me this is true in pretty much every industry, yet for some reason with flights, certain folks (likely not the FFers) get very upset to realize their price sensitivity/lack of airline stickiness moved them to the back of the line.
Can go both ways. The non-loyal flyers may never book with you again if they don’t get what they want.
A lot of the FFers don’t have much freedom in their booking, and are in too deep in the FF program to switch preferred airlines now.
A lot of the FFers don’t have much freedom in their booking, and are in too deep in the FF program to switch preferred airlines now.
The frequent flyer programs have less lock-in than you might imagine. Many airlines have status match programs, where someone who has status in one airline's frequent flier program will be extended the equivalent status in another's for a short period of time. If the passenger maintains a certain level of activity with the new airline, they keep their status.
As someone that's taken these offers before I think you're making a lot of assumptions. Yes there's some people on the plane with important business but on a plane with a 100+ people it's exceedingly likely there's also people casually travelling. $500+ in airline credit to move their flight to the morning is a real deal.
Personally I'd rather be in this system and pay lower airfare prices than pay a premium to guarantee I'll never be bumped off my flight.
Personally I'd rather be in this system and pay lower airfare prices than pay a premium to guarantee I'll never be bumped off my flight.
For me, the rub is with the benefit being a credit, not cash. If I’m not flying frequently enough, those credits are kindof worthless. Don’t they also have expiration dates?
Ryanair famously also increases prices closer to takeoff time.
They give big discounts to people who book early and make their planning process easier.
In theory this makes the need for overbooking less necessary. If you don’t show up you’re not getting your money back anyway and the plane will use less fuel on its flight.
This from the airline that wanted to charge people for using the toilets. If overbooking was a better model I’m pretty sure they’d use it.
They give big discounts to people who book early and make their planning process easier.
In theory this makes the need for overbooking less necessary. If you don’t show up you’re not getting your money back anyway and the plane will use less fuel on its flight.
This from the airline that wanted to charge people for using the toilets. If overbooking was a better model I’m pretty sure they’d use it.
It was a ryanair flight. They know exactly how many people are going on their planes, because every unsold seat could be another €20 and someone looking for a return ticket.
If you're associated with the Belarus KGB it's probably not too hard to have some passengers suddenly missing their flight for one or another reason. Probably they don't even need to buy a ticket, flash your badge at the airport and most guards/staff there lets you through.
Seems like a great way to get detained by Greek airport security. I do not see why Greek airport staff would do anything other than call security when someone flashes a KGB badge.
LOL do you think they actually carry badges? That would be quite incriminating.
Instead, it’s more like they are carrying fake passports issued by the Russian Federation. But, one likely would not get caught traveling on a fake passport issued by their country’s government’s spy service, unless they had already travelled on another (perhaps legit) passport abroad (Russia has internal passports too) that has fingerprint information in combination with a photo of the individual. This drastically reduces false negatives when things like this need to be flagged.
My US passport only contains a photo as biometric information, while my European Union passport contains fingerprints and my photo as biometric information.
Instead, it’s more like they are carrying fake passports issued by the Russian Federation. But, one likely would not get caught traveling on a fake passport issued by their country’s government’s spy service, unless they had already travelled on another (perhaps legit) passport abroad (Russia has internal passports too) that has fingerprint information in combination with a photo of the individual. This drastically reduces false negatives when things like this need to be flagged.
My US passport only contains a photo as biometric information, while my European Union passport contains fingerprints and my photo as biometric information.
Russia provides passports for Belarussian agents?
Yeah they apparently had Russian passports and the full support of the Russian state.
Maria Zakharova even wrote that “It is shocking that the West calls the incident in Belarusian airspace ‘shocking,’”.
She is the Director of the Press Department for the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and is famous for claiming things as ludicrous as this one…
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/konstantinbenyumov/mari...
Maria Zakharova even wrote that “It is shocking that the West calls the incident in Belarusian airspace ‘shocking,’”.
She is the Director of the Press Department for the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and is famous for claiming things as ludicrous as this one…
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/konstantinbenyumov/mari...
Thanks. I could swear like a decade ago it seemed like Belarus and Russia had had a falling out but I guess they patched things up since then (or the falling out didn’t impact cooperation like these passports).
Belarus is the last Soviet satellite.
I'm not sure how kindly the Greek authorities would take having KGB operatives on their soil
WHY would it work like that?
> flash your badge at the airport and most guards/staff there lets you through.
No? Why would that be the case?
No? Why would that be the case?
Belarus official version is that Protasevich's girlfriend send a photo of him from the Athens airport to a guy (Anton Motolko) who is officially considered extremist or something like this by Belarus and who published the photo in his Telegram where monitoring it Belarus authorities saw the photo. If it is true, then the social media is definitely wet dream of state authorities like Stazi.
I thought the official Belarus line was that they had a tip about a bomb and that when the plane landed they "happened" to find a wanted person on board? Are they now admitting that the plane was forced down to arrest him?
> Belarus official version
Why it would be treated seriously, especially after they blatantly lied about supposed bomb? And obviously fake bomb threat from Hamas of all things?
Why it would be treated seriously, especially after they blatantly lied about supposed bomb? And obviously fake bomb threat from Hamas of all things?
Isn't Telegram e2e encrypted? Or I am understanding your comment wrong?
That's a common misconception. Telegram private chats are by default not e2e encrypted (but you can create a separate "secret chat", which will be).
Really? What does it mean in practical terms? Anyone can see my chats?
Is it worst than Whatsapp in that sense? I understand (again) that WA is e2e encrypted by default?
Thanks!
Is it worst than Whatsapp in that sense? I understand (again) that WA is e2e encrypted by default?
Thanks!
Quoted from article [1] on how someone 'hacked' some Brazil politicians:
"A hacker with little technical skill and no specialized equipment could, it turned out, do quite a bit of damage with access to someone's voicemail. Delgatti, for instance, figured out he could use this VoIP spoofing technique to target Telegram accounts. At the time, when a Telegram user wanted to attach their account to a new device, they had the option of requesting a verification code via an automated voice call from Telegram. Delgatti realized that he could spoof a victim's phone to request that code. Then, if Telegram's automated voice call didn't get through—because Delgatti initiated the hack late at night while his victim slept, or kept the line busy by calling his victim at the same time—the code would be sent to the person's voicemail. He could then spoof the target's phone once again to gain access to their voicemail, retrieve the verification code, and then add the victim's Telegram to his own device. After that, he could download their entire chat history from the cloud."
[1] https://www.wired.com/story/brazil-hacker-bolsonaro-car-wash...
I think the least everyone who wanna continue using telegram must do is enable 'two-step verification' in Telegram settings.
Or use Signal. Or Wire if you don't wanna expose phone number. But Wire stores metadata.
Edit: Yeah WA is e2e by default. But if you or your friend has enabled backing up chats to Google account, everything will be backed up in plain/weak encryption. Also at least in android, WhatsApp automatically stores all received/sent pics, videos etc in a folder named WhatsApp which is available to any app with storage permission.
"A hacker with little technical skill and no specialized equipment could, it turned out, do quite a bit of damage with access to someone's voicemail. Delgatti, for instance, figured out he could use this VoIP spoofing technique to target Telegram accounts. At the time, when a Telegram user wanted to attach their account to a new device, they had the option of requesting a verification code via an automated voice call from Telegram. Delgatti realized that he could spoof a victim's phone to request that code. Then, if Telegram's automated voice call didn't get through—because Delgatti initiated the hack late at night while his victim slept, or kept the line busy by calling his victim at the same time—the code would be sent to the person's voicemail. He could then spoof the target's phone once again to gain access to their voicemail, retrieve the verification code, and then add the victim's Telegram to his own device. After that, he could download their entire chat history from the cloud."
[1] https://www.wired.com/story/brazil-hacker-bolsonaro-car-wash...
I think the least everyone who wanna continue using telegram must do is enable 'two-step verification' in Telegram settings.
Or use Signal. Or Wire if you don't wanna expose phone number. But Wire stores metadata.
Edit: Yeah WA is e2e by default. But if you or your friend has enabled backing up chats to Google account, everything will be backed up in plain/weak encryption. Also at least in android, WhatsApp automatically stores all received/sent pics, videos etc in a folder named WhatsApp which is available to any app with storage permission.
> Also at least in android, WhatsApp automatically stores all received/sent pics, videos etc in a folder named WhatsApp
Note that this is true even for unread messages, including messages in group chats.
Note that this is true even for unread messages, including messages in group chats.
Yes, it is much worse than WhatsApp.
I use it because it has global searchable groups.
Also you can make it such at other people who chat with you will not be able to see your phone number.
Whatsapp has a nag screen about backups on like every other startup and the backups are plaintext in Google Drive (not sure about the iOS version). So if your contacts just use the defaults you are not better off.
In practical terms, non secret chats messages are stored, more or less cleartext, on Telegram servers. In this sense, yes, it is much less secure than Whatsapp. Though I don't know if, in whatsapp, the metadata is also e2e encrypted
And that secret chat only works on mobile and only for 1 on 1 conversations.
A travel history of almost everybody can be reconstructed fully for the last ~10 years from those databases.
And of course that stuff went to .onion sites.
That's just like almost everybody's financial information collected, and reported for the sake of "counterterrorism" (CRS,) and, soon, SIM card subscriber data.
Up until quite recently, a number of countries had access to every bank transaction in the world going through SWIFT in Switzerland.
Every time you pass the border in the airport, the guy in the booth can google pretty much every administrative record about you down to things like your parking tickets. Not to say, things like criminal records are an open book across "developed" countries.