mRNA Vaccines May Pack More Persistent Punch Against Covid-19 Than Thought(directorsblog.nih.gov)
directorsblog.nih.gov
mRNA Vaccines May Pack More Persistent Punch Against Covid-19 Than Thought
https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/07/13/mrna-vaccines-could-pack-more-persistent-punch-against-covid-19-than-thought/
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Don't trust humans. Wait for scientific studies and replication.
This is the scientific method.
This is the scientific method.
When was the last time you saw a study actually replicated and not just "peer reviewed" and referenced?
This is COVID, not some rat behavior study. It will be replicated.
Slide into the DMs when that happens
I would also be suspect of any Biotech company announcing a "need" for more/variation product of theirs.
But yes. Allow consensus to build before jumping to conclusions when we don't have a time pressure on that front.
But yes. Allow consensus to build before jumping to conclusions when we don't have a time pressure on that front.
[deleted]
Right, but in the case of a vaccine, you wait, you die.
Not if you're under 60 and not obese
Tell that to my old colleague in Brazil, dead at 38 from COVID. Or to one of my first co-workers, back in 2005, dead last year at 45.
None of them obese, the 45 years old guy was running half-marathons.
Please, don't say this kind of shit, it hurts people like me who don't fit your fake narrative for no good reason.
None of them obese, the 45 years old guy was running half-marathons.
Please, don't say this kind of shit, it hurts people like me who don't fit your fake narrative for no good reason.
I don't need to tell it to you. I and everyone I know have gotten covid and are doing fine. Covid is not the bubonic plague. Its not even the Spanish flu. The data show that already.
Maybe I know a lot more people than you, but my mother's therapist, my dentist, and a coworker's father died from COVID. The great majority of cases don't die, but given it's extremely contagious, it makes up for it with numbers.
I’m sorry you lost a couple of colleagues too young. But statistical anomalies need to be notated as such. I don’t warn people not to golf due to the risk of lightning strike
What was their comorbidity?
[deleted]
Pfizer had a desperate need for everyone to get a booster shot every year to boost their revenues. I wouldn’t trust them.
We're headed towards that, anyway, but don't get too excited for Pfizer. The mRNA vaccines are selling for $15-$20 per dose, but flu shots are $2. There's a competitor in the market, and it's a new technology, so prices will drop fast.
I wouldn't trust the guy that is going to make lots of money if the decision went their way...
For now? Everyone, because they are saying the exact same thing, but people/media focus on one aspect.
Current consensus is that vaccines are very effective, at least for 6 months, probably a year or more; however, chances are we will need booster shots, we don't know when. People at higher risk will probably need them sooner. If worse variants develop, we will all need them sooner.
Depending on how the question is asked, or who is writing the headline, they will either emphasize 'probably needed' or 'not yet'.
Current consensus is that vaccines are very effective, at least for 6 months, probably a year or more; however, chances are we will need booster shots, we don't know when. People at higher risk will probably need them sooner. If worse variants develop, we will all need them sooner.
Depending on how the question is asked, or who is writing the headline, they will either emphasize 'probably needed' or 'not yet'.
This is the reason conspiracy theories are proliferating so far. The information provided by different parties is always different. I believe the best solution is for the party with the most authority (the FDA in this case) to publish an explanation that covers the differences. Otherwise lay people are completely justified in believing that Government agencies are lying to them.
According to Der Spiegel (a German newspaper):
> “In Israel, the effectiveness of the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine against coronavirus has declined significantly in recent weeks, according to the Ministry of Health. [...]
> Since June 6, the vaccine's effectiveness in preventing infection and illness with symptoms in Israel has dropped to 64 percent, he said. However, the vaccine still wards off severe illness and hospitalization 93 percent of the time, according to the report. […]
> Israel is considered a model country in the fight against coronavirus because of its successful vaccination campaign.”
https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/israel-impfschut...
> “In Israel, the effectiveness of the Pfizer/Biontech vaccine against coronavirus has declined significantly in recent weeks, according to the Ministry of Health. [...]
> Since June 6, the vaccine's effectiveness in preventing infection and illness with symptoms in Israel has dropped to 64 percent, he said. However, the vaccine still wards off severe illness and hospitalization 93 percent of the time, according to the report. […]
> Israel is considered a model country in the fight against coronavirus because of its successful vaccination campaign.”
https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/israel-impfschut...
Don’t viruses mutate to become less deadly over time? If so, why is there so much concern over mutations? Isn’t that what we want.
Viruses mutate without thought. Some will be more deadly, others less. Some more contagious, some less.
Consider the seemingly randomness of chemistry at the biological level is what determines this.
Although less deadly, highly contagious are more likely to spread for longer.
Consider the seemingly randomness of chemistry at the biological level is what determines this.
Although less deadly, highly contagious are more likely to spread for longer.
What you are referring to is called the “transmission-virulence tradeoff theory” and while it does not guarantee that this virus will do what you claim, it is remarkable that public health officials and journalists do not mention it.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30734920/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30734920/
They would mention it if they saw it occurring. It's not.
You can imagine if they did, the propaganda engine of 2020 would have used the concept to launch lies about how it'll eventually become so mild you really don't need the vaccine. A certain president was stating early on that it would just fade away. It didn't.
All the info floating about was already confusing (and even contradictory) to the general population. There is no need to muddy the water with details that aren't applicable at this time, and may never be.
You can imagine if they did, the propaganda engine of 2020 would have used the concept to launch lies about how it'll eventually become so mild you really don't need the vaccine. A certain president was stating early on that it would just fade away. It didn't.
All the info floating about was already confusing (and even contradictory) to the general population. There is no need to muddy the water with details that aren't applicable at this time, and may never be.
Even if your claim is correct: Hiding this kind of information from the public, and trying to steamroll them with “experts say” proclamations, has backfired spectacularly. Surely you can see that by now.
The whole damn last year and a half has been nothing but raw appeals to authority. Critical thinking and healthy skepticism has been met with extreme vitriol.
What's your frame of reference for this statement?
Mostly I've seen a very mixed bag of opinions, reactions and measures over the past year and a half.
I think people are pushed to extremes because there's a heady mixture of:
1. an invisible, unthinking enemy breaking through borders affecting everyone and causing an inflection in basic social etiquette that demands action in very grey and alien moral zones most people have no experience in
2. the internet increasingly dominating the human experience while still being a relatively new, mindfuck global network that (a) undermines basic instincts honed for thousands of years, (b) increases fringe and extreme communities by enabling distributed social networking, and (c) enables surveillance and individual targeting on a scale most preceding dystopian literature couldn't imagine
3. unsolveable, self-perpetuating issues such as racism (as a proxy for culture wars and systemic oppression), conspiracy theories / misinformation (as a means of fracturing and neutering political movements that empowers users and proponents like a heroin-dealer empowers the neighborhood) and wealth inequality (the 'meritocratic' cloak over the otherwise naked aristocracy of capitalist societies) all dominate discourse and news cycles with the apocalyptic 'slow' train of climate change coming into view that we can't avoid because the sheer scale escapes our petty existential crises and sadistic impulses that have driven history and gotten us here (wherever the hell 'here' is)
4. the release of the tiger king documentary
Mostly I've seen a very mixed bag of opinions, reactions and measures over the past year and a half.
I think people are pushed to extremes because there's a heady mixture of:
1. an invisible, unthinking enemy breaking through borders affecting everyone and causing an inflection in basic social etiquette that demands action in very grey and alien moral zones most people have no experience in
2. the internet increasingly dominating the human experience while still being a relatively new, mindfuck global network that (a) undermines basic instincts honed for thousands of years, (b) increases fringe and extreme communities by enabling distributed social networking, and (c) enables surveillance and individual targeting on a scale most preceding dystopian literature couldn't imagine
3. unsolveable, self-perpetuating issues such as racism (as a proxy for culture wars and systemic oppression), conspiracy theories / misinformation (as a means of fracturing and neutering political movements that empowers users and proponents like a heroin-dealer empowers the neighborhood) and wealth inequality (the 'meritocratic' cloak over the otherwise naked aristocracy of capitalist societies) all dominate discourse and news cycles with the apocalyptic 'slow' train of climate change coming into view that we can't avoid because the sheer scale escapes our petty existential crises and sadistic impulses that have driven history and gotten us here (wherever the hell 'here' is)
4. the release of the tiger king documentary
You might recall the roller coaster that ensued when they thought it might be possible to reach heard immunity. The moment it became obvious that it wasn't going to happen, mostly due to an incredible lack of cooperation with everyone involved, they stopped talking about it. It was no longer valid, so why talk about it?
What backfired is not so much what the experts were saying, but how there was always an 'anti' chugging away at the press and online to make sure nobody knew what was what. We spend way too much time debunking crap info instead of just dealing with the good-at-the-time info provided by the experts.
They aren't hiding anything from the public. They just aren't planning on teaching the public absolutely everything about pandemics - just what is needed to be known at any given time. Otherwise you end up with too much information for anyone to even begin to understand what they need to do.
Telling people that some viruses eventually weaken has no benefit to anyone. The current virus isn't doing that, and raising hopes that it might is bound to give propagandists more fuel to work with.
What backfired is not so much what the experts were saying, but how there was always an 'anti' chugging away at the press and online to make sure nobody knew what was what. We spend way too much time debunking crap info instead of just dealing with the good-at-the-time info provided by the experts.
They aren't hiding anything from the public. They just aren't planning on teaching the public absolutely everything about pandemics - just what is needed to be known at any given time. Otherwise you end up with too much information for anyone to even begin to understand what they need to do.
Telling people that some viruses eventually weaken has no benefit to anyone. The current virus isn't doing that, and raising hopes that it might is bound to give propagandists more fuel to work with.
[deleted]
No. Viruses mutate in the face of selective pressure. COVID is becoming more deadly over time because there is a selective pressure towards more transmissibility. More transmissibility can increase the severity of illness if the virus more readily replicates or more easy infects human cells.
Viruses only become less deadly if they are so deadly that hosts die before they can pass on the virus. No such pressure exists for COVID as patients are infectious during the incubation period.
Viruses only become less deadly if they are so deadly that hosts die before they can pass on the virus. No such pressure exists for COVID as patients are infectious during the incubation period.
What's awkward with covid right now is that even strong vaccination efforts (Israel, large US cities) will only hit 70%, rural areas worse, and developing countries at 15%. Suppressing covid over the past year means we now have a more transmissible, more deadly strain, the number of countries that successfully contained it is starting to look like New Zealand, and, my guess, masks won't be enough to stop it, this time, at least to a degree that doesn't severely limit society.
If you're a developed country swimming in vaccines like the US, do you let the delta strain go for it? Drawing it out with lockdows only makes the vaccine less effective, and once you lock down, it becomes clear there is no exist strategy. What if you're a large city with 80% vaccination rates? Will there be anger over preventable lockdowns? What if you're facing a recall election?
What if you're Europe, have moderate vaccine coverage, but likely won't be able to vaccinate to herd immunity for the same reasons as the US?
In hindsight, knowing the virus would be 2.5x worse in a year and a half and half your population would have no interest in the vaccine, should you have let it spread?
If you're a developed country swimming in vaccines like the US, do you let the delta strain go for it? Drawing it out with lockdows only makes the vaccine less effective, and once you lock down, it becomes clear there is no exist strategy. What if you're a large city with 80% vaccination rates? Will there be anger over preventable lockdowns? What if you're facing a recall election?
What if you're Europe, have moderate vaccine coverage, but likely won't be able to vaccinate to herd immunity for the same reasons as the US?
In hindsight, knowing the virus would be 2.5x worse in a year and a half and half your population would have no interest in the vaccine, should you have let it spread?
> COVID is becoming more deadly over time
Citation needed.
Citation needed.
I suppose it depends on how you calculate it. If the delta variant is equally deadly to previous versions (to an individual), but is more infectious, then more people will die, all else being equal. More people dying --> more deadly, at the population level.
The OP specifically said:
> COVID is becoming more deadly over time because there is a selective pressure towards more transmissibility. More transmissibility can increase the severity of illness if the virus more readily replicates or more easy infects human cells.
I read that as talking about infection fatality rate (IFR). I'm not aware of any evidence that covid's IFR is increasing.
> COVID is becoming more deadly over time because there is a selective pressure towards more transmissibility. More transmissibility can increase the severity of illness if the virus more readily replicates or more easy infects human cells.
I read that as talking about infection fatality rate (IFR). I'm not aware of any evidence that covid's IFR is increasing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SARS-CoV-2_Alpha_variant#Virul...
It seems that the Alpha variant is more virulent than the original, but it's hard to measure virulence to a high degree of confidence.
IFR is not quite the right thing to measure, we are interested in differences in mortality due to mutation of the virus, but there are many confounding variables in the quality of treatment and populations that get infected to remove. e.g. if a virus stayed exactly static you would expect mortality to decrease over time as better treatments are found.
It seems that the Alpha variant is more virulent than the original, but it's hard to measure virulence to a high degree of confidence.
IFR is not quite the right thing to measure, we are interested in differences in mortality due to mutation of the virus, but there are many confounding variables in the quality of treatment and populations that get infected to remove. e.g. if a virus stayed exactly static you would expect mortality to decrease over time as better treatments are found.
I'm on my phone so I can't search for a real citation right now but the UK government has made announcements to this effect, if you trust that.
[deleted]
No.
Viruses mutate over time and they could become more or less deadly over time.
The Spanish Flu mutated into a more deadly virus overtime.
https://www.history.com/news/spanish-flu-second-wave-resurge...
^ not a scientific article, simply to prove how bad the viewpoint of "mutate to be less deadly".
More reasonable article:
https://www.aap.com.au/yes-viruses-can-evolve-to-become-more...
Viruses mutate over time and they could become more or less deadly over time.
The Spanish Flu mutated into a more deadly virus overtime.
https://www.history.com/news/spanish-flu-second-wave-resurge...
^ not a scientific article, simply to prove how bad the viewpoint of "mutate to be less deadly".
More reasonable article:
https://www.aap.com.au/yes-viruses-can-evolve-to-become-more...
There also wasn't a coordinated half-assed effort to stop the Spanish Flu.
The American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology addressed this idea here[1], as did The Conversation[2], Scientific American[3], and the AP[4].
tl;dr: you're looking at an average trend that may or may not actually exist. There's no guarantee that it will follow the trend, that it is average, that it won't become worse in some aspects or that the trend even exists.
[1] https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb-today/science/112920/will-the-co...
[2] https://theconversation.com/will-coronavirus-really-evolve-t...
[3] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-will-the-coro...
[4] https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-011488089270
tl;dr: you're looking at an average trend that may or may not actually exist. There's no guarantee that it will follow the trend, that it is average, that it won't become worse in some aspects or that the trend even exists.
[1] https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb-today/science/112920/will-the-co...
[2] https://theconversation.com/will-coronavirus-really-evolve-t...
[3] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-will-the-coro...
[4] https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-011488089270
What do you have to say about antibody dependent enhancement?
Viruses, like all things, mutate to become more fit to their environment. A lot of viruses mutate to become less deadly because they're killing their hosts too quickly, and the less-deadly versions allow their hosts to live longer, and thus spread better.
COVID already spreads very well, what with the ability for it to spread while incubating silently for a couple weeks. A more-deadly version that retains the slow and silent incubation, but then kills mercilessly, would likely still spread just as fine.
COVID already spreads very well, what with the ability for it to spread while incubating silently for a couple weeks. A more-deadly version that retains the slow and silent incubation, but then kills mercilessly, would likely still spread just as fine.
The "part" of the virus targeted by the vaccine is the spike protein which is "The spike (S) protein of SARS-CoV-2, which plays a key role in the receptor recognition and cell membrane fusion process" [1].
A mutation which alters the shape of the spike protein, rendering it protected against the vaccine will most likely render the virus less virulent.
Think of it as a hedged bet.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41401-020-0485-4
A mutation which alters the shape of the spike protein, rendering it protected against the vaccine will most likely render the virus less virulent.
Think of it as a hedged bet.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41401-020-0485-4
Interesting and promising to hear. I dont like this sort of thing:
> That’s why it remains so critical that more Americans get vaccinated not only to protect themselves and their loved ones, but to help stop the virus’s spread in their communities and thereby reduce its ability to mutate.
I see this is a blog and not a journal paper, but this kind of motherhood statement lowers the overall credibility.
Also, it was interesting to see that pfizer was quick to say a booster was necessary soon. I hadn't thought about that before but it's no surprise that pharmaceutical companies would want to do everything they can to turn this into ARR instead of just a one shot fix. This is something that is going to require real vigilance.
> That’s why it remains so critical that more Americans get vaccinated not only to protect themselves and their loved ones, but to help stop the virus’s spread in their communities and thereby reduce its ability to mutate.
I see this is a blog and not a journal paper, but this kind of motherhood statement lowers the overall credibility.
Also, it was interesting to see that pfizer was quick to say a booster was necessary soon. I hadn't thought about that before but it's no surprise that pharmaceutical companies would want to do everything they can to turn this into ARR instead of just a one shot fix. This is something that is going to require real vigilance.
It’s a factual scientific statement that absolutely should be stated by as many people of all professions as possible, especially scientists that study this exact topic. You lost your credibility when you threw this shit on it.
I disagree, specifically with the idea of mixing telling people what to do with reporting cause and effect. The latter is clearly within the realm of the researcher's expertise. The former is a more complex political decision that has a lot of other factors. In this case, the statement (get vaccicanted) is not even controversial. But it's the principal of specialists mixing telling people as a group what to do with the results of their studies that I object to.
I dont expect my point to be understood or appreciated (people literally looked into my comment history and downvoted past comments when I posted the GP) but I want to clarify my point. Treatment science as a religion is not a way forward, even if scientists say things you agree with.
I dont expect my point to be understood or appreciated (people literally looked into my comment history and downvoted past comments when I posted the GP) but I want to clarify my point. Treatment science as a religion is not a way forward, even if scientists say things you agree with.
> the principal of specialists mixing telling people as a group what to do
When specialists tell you not to drink contaminated lake water, or to wear a mask when removing asbestos tiles, or to get a colonoscopy when you turn 50, do you reject those recommendations also?
When specialists tell you not to drink contaminated lake water, or to wear a mask when removing asbestos tiles, or to get a colonoscopy when you turn 50, do you reject those recommendations also?
Those people are acting within their specialty. For the last year and a half the only voice in the room that was allowed was that of the doomsday epidemiologist. Whatever recommendations they said were taken at face value with no thought or regard to any other specialty at all.
Epidemiologists are not experts in political science, economics, mental health, education, public health, business, finance, behavioral health, law or anything else.
When these people make unilateral public policy decisions, they are operating well outside their expertise.
Unilateral myopic Technocracy ain’t what it was made out to be. It appears to quickly devolve into straight fascism.
Epidemiologists are not experts in political science, economics, mental health, education, public health, business, finance, behavioral health, law or anything else.
When these people make unilateral public policy decisions, they are operating well outside their expertise.
Unilateral myopic Technocracy ain’t what it was made out to be. It appears to quickly devolve into straight fascism.
Quite the contrary, we let many absolute psychos in the room. Notably, Trump. And we are far worse for it, and are about to be hit in the face for it. It’s absolutely false that only epidemiologists were the only voice or decision maker. You’re dreaming something up. P.S. I don’t downvote. Finally, I have a degree in public policy that included classes in political science, statistics, economics, business, finance, and law. So listen to me. ;)
> Epidemiologists are not experts in political science, economics, mental health, education, public health, business, finance, behavioral health, law or anything else.
OK, but the parent was complaining about recommendations that people get vaccinated, which is what I was responding to.
OK, but the parent was complaining about recommendations that people get vaccinated, which is what I was responding to.
The public sector exists to curb the excesses of private organizations regardless of whether the private organization provides a useful service.
It doesn’t require a conspiracy to understand that pfizer will both provide a benign working solution and also try to leverage their position in the community to sell unnecessary things
This isn’t that hard
It doesn’t require a conspiracy to understand that pfizer will both provide a benign working solution and also try to leverage their position in the community to sell unnecessary things
This isn’t that hard
The booster is targeting the delta variant, rather than the [original] alpha variant. It is essentially a tweak to the original vaccine to improve immune response.
> no surprise that pharmaceutical companies would want to do everything they can to turn this into ARR instead of just a one shot fix
Are you suggesting pharmaceutical companies are creating the COVID-19 variants? Because if not then this line of complaint is confusing.
> no surprise that pharmaceutical companies would want to do everything they can to turn this into ARR instead of just a one shot fix
Are you suggesting pharmaceutical companies are creating the COVID-19 variants? Because if not then this line of complaint is confusing.
The blog post cites the scientific study here https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34182569/
Who do we trust in that situation? There are qualified scientists on both sides, but why do they disagree on something so critical, especially on how to message it?