The Forest People(stoneageherbalist.substack.com)
stoneageherbalist.substack.com
The Forest People
https://stoneageherbalist.substack.com/p/the-forest-people
24 コメント
There are peoples who manage to live in harmony with nature, but westerners tend to view these societies as "undeveloped" or "barbaric" which is absolutely absurd. We should be learning from them
I agree. But America is by definition, the exceptional nation, the "indispensable nation", the peak of human society and values.
Until this mentality changes, we won't be learning from anyone.
Until this mentality changes, we won't be learning from anyone.
> the "Half Earth" proposal wherein half the Earth's landmass should be dedicated to human-free "nature". Of course, no one will willingly give up their home, so this is tantamount to ethnically cleansing those regions--Africa and the Global South--that are geopolitically weak so that the wealthy Western nations can maintain their decadent quality of life.
Not quite. Western quality of life can't be improved by banning the exploitation of natural resources in Africa. Rather, what's proposed is to ethnically cleanse the reserved regions so that Western nations can advance an ideological goal that lowers their own quality of life.
Not quite. Western quality of life can't be improved by banning the exploitation of natural resources in Africa. Rather, what's proposed is to ethnically cleanse the reserved regions so that Western nations can advance an ideological goal that lowers their own quality of life.
Why can't our lives/the world be improved by banning the exploitation of natural resources in Africa?
i'm constantly reading news of horrible spills from corruption and lack or regulation in the region. Plus all the carbon that contributes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANssSLjSXN0
https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/nigerias-aiteo-reports-...
i'm constantly reading news of horrible spills from corruption and lack or regulation in the region. Plus all the carbon that contributes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANssSLjSXN0
https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/nigerias-aiteo-reports-...
> Why can't our lives/the world be improved by banning the exploitation of natural resources in Africa?
> i'm constantly reading news of horrible spills from corruption and lack or regulation in the region.
We don't mine or drill for resources for the purpose of spilling them into the nearby forest. We extract resources so that we can use them to improve our quality of life. Stop extracting them, and quality of life will necessarily drop.
> i'm constantly reading news of horrible spills from corruption and lack or regulation in the region.
We don't mine or drill for resources for the purpose of spilling them into the nearby forest. We extract resources so that we can use them to improve our quality of life. Stop extracting them, and quality of life will necessarily drop.
I disagree with that premise.
I get it's hard to transition and that poor countries do gain money from exploitation.
But almost always, almost all the money goes to the few while the local communities are poisoned. often times, like in the sources I provided, traditional industry/food production is decimated.
So first point is quality of life for the actual locals is often reduced, sometimes greatly. Corporations and developed nations have increased our quality of life at the expense of others for centuries.
Second, once we scale up renewables we won't need to extract nearly as much carbon fuel from the ground. We NEED to stop extracting almost all of it so we can IMPROVE quality of life for everyone.
I get it's hard to transition and that poor countries do gain money from exploitation.
But almost always, almost all the money goes to the few while the local communities are poisoned. often times, like in the sources I provided, traditional industry/food production is decimated.
So first point is quality of life for the actual locals is often reduced, sometimes greatly. Corporations and developed nations have increased our quality of life at the expense of others for centuries.
Second, once we scale up renewables we won't need to extract nearly as much carbon fuel from the ground. We NEED to stop extracting almost all of it so we can IMPROVE quality of life for everyone.
Maybe we start by banning harmful exploitation where we are first, not somewhere else?
We're trying to do both at the same time. And there's no reason not to do both at the same time. a) We are all pissing in the same bed, and b) if we truly believe the Mbuti and Twa are people just like we are and, ipso facto, deserve the same protections, then we must fight for both. We can't carve out an "exploit pygmies" exception and be consistent.
> The expansion of the ‘Green New Deal’ and the rise of ‘renewable’ industrial technologies may be the death knell for these archaic and peaceful people. Make no mistake, these green initiatives – electric vehicles, wind turbines, solar batteries – these are actively destroying the last remaining strongholds of biodiversity on the planet. The future designs on the DRC include vast hydroelectric dams and intensive agriculture, stripping away the final refuges of the world. Now, more than ever, the Mbuti and other Pygmy peoples need our solidarity, an act which can be as simple as not buying that next iPhone
This seems like a vast oversimplification by the author. Kurzgesagt made a video explaining how climate change is a multifaceted problem; that no solution will make everyone happy. I'm not trying to undermine the plight of the Mbuti people, but "not buying that next iPhone" is not going to solve the political, economic, and social strife that is present in the DRC. Also, the claim that green initiatives are "destroying the last remaining strongholds of biodiversity on the planet" overlooks the tradeoff in using green energy sources over fossil fuels.
Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiw6_JakZFc
This seems like a vast oversimplification by the author. Kurzgesagt made a video explaining how climate change is a multifaceted problem; that no solution will make everyone happy. I'm not trying to undermine the plight of the Mbuti people, but "not buying that next iPhone" is not going to solve the political, economic, and social strife that is present in the DRC. Also, the claim that green initiatives are "destroying the last remaining strongholds of biodiversity on the planet" overlooks the tradeoff in using green energy sources over fossil fuels.
Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiw6_JakZFc
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The kicker is at the bottom:
> The expansion of the ‘Green New Deal’ and the rise of ‘renewable’ industrial technologies may be the death knell for these archaic and peaceful people. Make no mistake, these green initiatives – electric vehicles, wind turbines, solar batteries – these are actively destroying the last remaining strongholds of biodiversity on the planet.
This reads like so much contrarian trollery since time immemorial. Jonas Salk is exploiting children! The abolitionists are actually harming slaves! The vaccines are actually a nefarious controlling plot and the pandemic is a sham!
Basically, the trick is to say people who claim to care about the problem are actually the source of the problem. This isn't to say that cobalt extraction is harmless or that this harm is disconnected from the global desire to use low-carbon mechanisms to power the economy, but I sincerely doubt this citation-free article portrays the situation accurately. For one thing, the Green New Deal is a purely US thing, and it isn't a particular piece of legislation that has stood any chance of being enacted under that name since the Democratic primaries (and not even then, though at least then it had proponents who stood some chance of gaining significant political power), so singling this out as the demon to fear is to single our environmental action in general. Insulating your home!? What about the pigmies! Buying milk in returnable glass bottles!? Oppressor! Going vegetarian to reduce your carbon footprint!? You cannibalistic monster!
I sincerely doubt the WWF is the sole funder of park rangers, or that a desire they might have expressed to remove people from areas of biological diversity is targeted at pigmies rather than, say, illegal logging or mining operations. I cannot believe that "addressing climate change and working to preserve the rain forest are the chief threats to pigmies" is an argument offered in good faith. I'm pretty sure the pigmies would suffer more and faster if the loggers, miners, bushmeat trade, and climate change are allowed to roll along unstopped.
> The expansion of the ‘Green New Deal’ and the rise of ‘renewable’ industrial technologies may be the death knell for these archaic and peaceful people. Make no mistake, these green initiatives – electric vehicles, wind turbines, solar batteries – these are actively destroying the last remaining strongholds of biodiversity on the planet.
This reads like so much contrarian trollery since time immemorial. Jonas Salk is exploiting children! The abolitionists are actually harming slaves! The vaccines are actually a nefarious controlling plot and the pandemic is a sham!
Basically, the trick is to say people who claim to care about the problem are actually the source of the problem. This isn't to say that cobalt extraction is harmless or that this harm is disconnected from the global desire to use low-carbon mechanisms to power the economy, but I sincerely doubt this citation-free article portrays the situation accurately. For one thing, the Green New Deal is a purely US thing, and it isn't a particular piece of legislation that has stood any chance of being enacted under that name since the Democratic primaries (and not even then, though at least then it had proponents who stood some chance of gaining significant political power), so singling this out as the demon to fear is to single our environmental action in general. Insulating your home!? What about the pigmies! Buying milk in returnable glass bottles!? Oppressor! Going vegetarian to reduce your carbon footprint!? You cannibalistic monster!
I sincerely doubt the WWF is the sole funder of park rangers, or that a desire they might have expressed to remove people from areas of biological diversity is targeted at pigmies rather than, say, illegal logging or mining operations. I cannot believe that "addressing climate change and working to preserve the rain forest are the chief threats to pigmies" is an argument offered in good faith. I'm pretty sure the pigmies would suffer more and faster if the loggers, miners, bushmeat trade, and climate change are allowed to roll along unstopped.
The point of the article is that the philosophy underpinning eco-conscious modernity, specificially the fundemental separation between "humanity" and "nature," leaves no place for humans who live as a part of nature. In the modern world this concept is almost entirely taken for granted, as most of us spend the vast majority of their lives in artificially constructed environments designed specifically to insulate us to the greatest extent possible from the pulse of nature. This is baked in to both our interpretation of the challenges we face and our proposed solution to these challenges, sometimes with unintended consequences.
This article is an invitation to more closely consider this underpinning philosophy. The tone of your response indicates this maybe isn't so easy and also why it is so important.
This article is an invitation to more closely consider this underpinning philosophy. The tone of your response indicates this maybe isn't so easy and also why it is so important.
I'm fine with pointing out the negative consequences of environmental actions. It's absurd to think any sincere, and representative, member of the environmental movement is unfamiliar with this (are there nuts and poseurs? sure, but you don't choose the outliers to characterize a group). They fret about this stuff all the time. But it's a completely mundane observation that an action may have undesirable consequences and that not all people will feel the same costs and benefits. This goes under the heading of "externalized costs", which environmentalists talk about All. The. Time.
But this isn't the issue. The issue is this:
> The expansion of the ‘Green New Deal’ and the rise of ‘renewable’ industrial technologies may be the death knell for these archaic and peaceful people.
This is pinning all the woes of a particular marginalized group on the environmental movement. In fact, I think this is inverting responsibility. It's the environmentalists, or the same people under a different label, who are fighting for the Mbuti and the Yanomami and so forth and the anti-environmentalists, or the same people under a different label, who are machine gunning them and stealing their land and resources.
ETA "archaic and peaceful" sounds a bit off if you're writing in 2021 and you actually have the interests of these people at heart. "Archaic" sounds like you're a white savior from 1890 and "peaceful" makes it sound like you're writing for the postcard vendor at a Carnival Cruise port of call. "Look at their quaint grass skirts! Maybe they'll show some of their colorful folkways."
But this isn't the issue. The issue is this:
> The expansion of the ‘Green New Deal’ and the rise of ‘renewable’ industrial technologies may be the death knell for these archaic and peaceful people.
This is pinning all the woes of a particular marginalized group on the environmental movement. In fact, I think this is inverting responsibility. It's the environmentalists, or the same people under a different label, who are fighting for the Mbuti and the Yanomami and so forth and the anti-environmentalists, or the same people under a different label, who are machine gunning them and stealing their land and resources.
ETA "archaic and peaceful" sounds a bit off if you're writing in 2021 and you actually have the interests of these people at heart. "Archaic" sounds like you're a white savior from 1890 and "peaceful" makes it sound like you're writing for the postcard vendor at a Carnival Cruise port of call. "Look at their quaint grass skirts! Maybe they'll show some of their colorful folkways."
> It's absurd to think any sincere, and representative, member of the environmental movement
This is a powerful no-true-scotsman here. In my experience, the vast majority of people espousing technical solutions to climate change are barely aware of trade-offs if they've considered them at all. Externalized costs are primarily talked about as those imposed by fossil fuels etc. The costs imposed by environmental action itself are not so commonly considered.
> This is pinning all the woes of a particular marginalized group on the environmental movement...
The article simply pointing out that environmentalists aren't really helping here. Increased demand for cobalt and coltan is extremely harmful to certain groups of people who don't have a particularly loud voice in any segment of the environmental movement or the renewable energy industry. No one kills over rocks that have no value. By driving the demand for these minerals, unrest is increased in this region.
It's kinda silly to assume ~all~ environmentalists are fighting for these groups of people when the interests of many segments of the environmental movement are directly opposed to them and the article itself provides examples of environmental groups attacking them. The world is not black-and-white. People with good intentions can harm others.
I don't particularly like language criticisms, but word for word I think there is a lot more meat in your original comment than in this article.
This is a powerful no-true-scotsman here. In my experience, the vast majority of people espousing technical solutions to climate change are barely aware of trade-offs if they've considered them at all. Externalized costs are primarily talked about as those imposed by fossil fuels etc. The costs imposed by environmental action itself are not so commonly considered.
> This is pinning all the woes of a particular marginalized group on the environmental movement...
The article simply pointing out that environmentalists aren't really helping here. Increased demand for cobalt and coltan is extremely harmful to certain groups of people who don't have a particularly loud voice in any segment of the environmental movement or the renewable energy industry. No one kills over rocks that have no value. By driving the demand for these minerals, unrest is increased in this region.
It's kinda silly to assume ~all~ environmentalists are fighting for these groups of people when the interests of many segments of the environmental movement are directly opposed to them and the article itself provides examples of environmental groups attacking them. The world is not black-and-white. People with good intentions can harm others.
I don't particularly like language criticisms, but word for word I think there is a lot more meat in your original comment than in this article.
> This is a powerful no-true-scotsman here.
The no-true-scotsman fallacy only applies when an existence proof is sufficient to falsify a statement, not when the question is the central tendency of some group. If you claim "no X is Y", it is sufficient to find an X which is Y, and special pleading when you say the X isn't a true X, implicitly acknowledging your interlocutor has found a counterexample. But when you are make a statement regarding a central tendency -- within Z standard deviations of the mean or some other definition of outlier there are no X which are Y -- then you can't claim the existence of a counterexample is proof of the falsity of the claim. Simply pulling the phrase "no true scotsman" out of your hat isn't a magical incantation that will win the day for you. And adding "powerful" to it doesn't improve its mojo.
As for the rest of it, I'm done.
The no-true-scotsman fallacy only applies when an existence proof is sufficient to falsify a statement, not when the question is the central tendency of some group. If you claim "no X is Y", it is sufficient to find an X which is Y, and special pleading when you say the X isn't a true X, implicitly acknowledging your interlocutor has found a counterexample. But when you are make a statement regarding a central tendency -- within Z standard deviations of the mean or some other definition of outlier there are no X which are Y -- then you can't claim the existence of a counterexample is proof of the falsity of the claim. Simply pulling the phrase "no true scotsman" out of your hat isn't a magical incantation that will win the day for you. And adding "powerful" to it doesn't improve its mojo.
As for the rest of it, I'm done.
Yeah, completely bizarre conclusion with no substantiation. What is the agenda there?
The Right, playing at going green.
Honestly, I sort of appreciate it. I wish they would.
But it looks disingenuous. A narrow partisan attack on the Green New Deal.
Which is a shame, because green traditionalism could absolutely work, and the whole spectrum needs to go green -- left, right, and center.
Honestly, I sort of appreciate it. I wish they would.
But it looks disingenuous. A narrow partisan attack on the Green New Deal.
Which is a shame, because green traditionalism could absolutely work, and the whole spectrum needs to go green -- left, right, and center.
The "kicker": your "doubts" don't get any more credible when you say "I sincerely doubt" and "I cannot believe."
So you don't like his conclusion that "green" technologies may be harmful? Thus you "doubt" the whole piece. Smart! Also you get to compare it to other things you don't like. Motte-bailey much?
So you don't like his conclusion that "green" technologies may be harmful? Thus you "doubt" the whole piece. Smart! Also you get to compare it to other things you don't like. Motte-bailey much?
You think my doubts aren't credible? What does that mean? You think I'm lying about my own doubts?
I'm not at all troubled by the thought that green technologies might be harmful (well, I'd rather they weren't, but it seems obvious that they are, though also obviously good in other ways). I'm "troubled" by his pinning all the troubles of the Mbuti and so forth on green technology.
I'm not at all troubled by the thought that green technologies might be harmful (well, I'd rather they weren't, but it seems obvious that they are, though also obviously good in other ways). I'm "troubled" by his pinning all the troubles of the Mbuti and so forth on green technology.
No, sorry, I meant that your "doubts" about his article don't gain any power from the "sincerely" modifier.
I reread this, and I did not, at all, get the impression that he was "pinning all the troubles of the Mbuti and so forth on green technology." That is your misreading of it. He says that the pygmies have been horribly persecuted, and that the Green movement will make it much worse. Are you doubting that?
Secondly, your statement about how the WWF is not solely responsible for various evils is pretty disingenuous. Who cares if it's "solely"? They're a huge charitable organization that covers itself in virtue, and here they are committing an evil.
Lastly, the Web has given people, including you apparently, the impression that everything has to have a "source." How many publications do you think there are about the pygmy tribes deep in the Congo?
There's a legitimate question about whether this guy is credible, and we'd resolve that by looking at this publication and its reputation for probity, as well as the author's. Saying it's "unsourced" is something the Wikipedia pedants would do.
I reread this, and I did not, at all, get the impression that he was "pinning all the troubles of the Mbuti and so forth on green technology." That is your misreading of it. He says that the pygmies have been horribly persecuted, and that the Green movement will make it much worse. Are you doubting that?
Secondly, your statement about how the WWF is not solely responsible for various evils is pretty disingenuous. Who cares if it's "solely"? They're a huge charitable organization that covers itself in virtue, and here they are committing an evil.
Lastly, the Web has given people, including you apparently, the impression that everything has to have a "source." How many publications do you think there are about the pygmy tribes deep in the Congo?
There's a legitimate question about whether this guy is credible, and we'd resolve that by looking at this publication and its reputation for probity, as well as the author's. Saying it's "unsourced" is something the Wikipedia pedants would do.
I can't say I have the knowledge to argue the points of this article either way, but it sadly reinforces in my mind the idea that the arc of the technological universe is long, and it bends toward destruction.
Fascinating article, on a part of the world that gets largely ignored
There are other examples of this sort of "ecofascism", namely the "Half Earth" proposal wherein half the Earth's landmass should be dedicated to human-free "nature". Of course, no one will willingly give up their home, so this is tantamount to ethnically cleansing those regions--Africa and the Global South--that are geopolitically weak so that the wealthy Western nations can maintain their decadent quality of life.