John Cage Organ Project in Halberstadt(universes.art)
universes.art
John Cage Organ Project in Halberstadt
https://universes.art/en/specials/john-cage-organ-project-halberstadt
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Nearly anything sounds beautiful when it’s spectrally smoothed and lengthened 50x by Paulstretch, including the most irritating pop song you can name off the top of your head.
http://hypermammut.sourceforge.net/paulstretch/
http://hypermammut.sourceforge.net/paulstretch/
I haven't played with Paulstretch, but it looks similar to what Tom Erbe's "Soundhack" program did (windowed FFT with overlap add resynthesis). Soundhack was originally written in the late 90's and was used by the sound designers of The Matrix.. anyhow. Soundhack is now defunct, but Tom released the source and I ported the time stretching bit of the software to Go if anyone's interested: https://github.com/corporealfunk/gopvoc
Good point. I wonder how much of the beauty is due to the interesting SW approach vs. the speed. Here is an interesting discussion with the creator:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120217161857/http://www.micros...
https://web.archive.org/web/20120217161857/http://www.micros...
This is great, I have to check out more slowed down songs. The only other one I've heard is the Jurassic Park theme (-1,000%)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX40crWTTYs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX40crWTTYs
Interesting to me at least, but the start reminded me strongly of parts of This Mortal Coil's, Song to the Siren. A lovely song. https://youtu.be/HFWKJ2FUiAQ
Very nice. And that track reminds me of the Gladiator movie (2000) OST with Lisa Gerrard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbHPTPUpQ1I
[deleted]
Hmm, so imagine setting up dozens of organs, hundreds, maybe a few thousand in a large circle.
You set them to playing ASLSP in, well, a round, each set to take some long period of time to finish.
If you stand still, you'll hear it at it's ponderous pace, but if you walk, run ahead of the music, it will go faster and faster; if you reverse directions, it will slow down, stop, or even reverse.
You set them to playing ASLSP in, well, a round, each set to take some long period of time to finish.
If you stand still, you'll hear it at it's ponderous pace, but if you walk, run ahead of the music, it will go faster and faster; if you reverse directions, it will slow down, stop, or even reverse.
Organs are kinda expensive instruments, but if they just have to play a few notes...
I mean, you could definitely build a bespoke organ for the proposal above: You wouldn't need a manual (keyboard), or any sort of other bits and bobs required for performance (stops, pistons, couplers, pedals). Mini wind chambers per pipe, probably with an interconnected tubing so you could set up this big ring of pipes for people to walk around and observe. As for pipes, it'd just be one rank of pipes—not scores of them like with typical organs—and probably just one blower and bellows.
And, given the nature of the performance, some sort of self-powering renewable energy source and battery backup.
And, given the nature of the performance, some sort of self-powering renewable energy source and battery backup.
Organs work with air pressure right? Maybe something with a chimey which uses some sort of temperature differencial to produce airflow?
It's also a lot cheaper if you don't have to install a keyboard and all kinds of stops.
Do you have a Kickstarter?
Perfect soundtrack for the pitch drop experiment:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_drop_experiment
Indeed!
I remember a few years ago when the drop was supposed to fall. It was so exciting watching the drop almost fall, but after a few weeks of no visible movement it got dull.
I remember a few years ago when the drop was supposed to fall. It was so exciting watching the drop almost fall, but after a few weeks of no visible movement it got dull.
I can't help but think of things like these in a future where there was some sort of gap or loss in human learning, maybe due to a mass-extinction event. It would be seen as a mysterious artifact from the ancients that has been singing forever. Religions and priests would arise to interpret every minor change or fluctuation in the notes since they are obviously a message from a being or being so eternal that they couldn't even slow their speech enough to address in one lifetime, let alone 20.
It’s eerie how true this sounds.
Any thread about this is incomplete without mentioning the article about a note change in this performance by John Darnielle (of the band the Mountain Goats, who is also a novelist): https://harpers.org/archive/2016/01/there-are-other-forces-a...
Incredible that Cage managed to provoke riots in his audiences in 1974 and 1976.
Impressionists and modernists famously did so in earlier generations but the mid-70s is astonishingly late for an art riot. Among Buddhists in Boulder, no less!
Impressionists and modernists famously did so in earlier generations but the mid-70s is astonishingly late for an art riot. Among Buddhists in Boulder, no less!
Kind of a weird corner case for copyright law; a piece whose copyright expires part way through the performance. Presumably it expires (in the U.S.) 70 years after John Cage's death (1992 + 70 = 2062), but if it had instead been produced by a corporation and the score wasn't published ahead of the performance, each portion of the performance would presumably expire 95 years after that portion first played. However, there's apparently also a rule that corporate copyrights also expire 120 years after creation regardless of when they were published.
If you can't even finish the piece before its copyright expires, then the duration for copyright protection is way too short!
Is there a list of edge cases like these collected somewhere? E.g., this piece for music performance duration, avocados for a high-fat content fruit, qmail's small issue list, etc. I'd like to use it as a reference to sharpen my shitposting.
Is there a list of edge cases like these collected somewhere? E.g., this piece for music performance duration, avocados for a high-fat content fruit, qmail's small issue list, etc. I'd like to use it as a reference to sharpen my shitposting.
It's not really relevant. There isn't a copyright in the performance itself, and if they had permission to start the performance, then the expiry of the copyright certainly doesn't prevent them from finishing.
I was thinking more about the copyright on the score, and whether other people would be able to freely copy it, make their own recordings, create derivative works, and so on.
https://longplayer.org/about/overview/
longer duration, faster tempo
longer duration, faster tempo
Let me add that this is scheduled to be completed on 31 December 2999, which is nearly 1000 years from now.
It began on 1 January 2000.
It began on 1 January 2000.
This piece and the Cage piece both began in 2000, and both descriptions imply the turn of the millennium are an important marker. So probably not many > 100 year pieces have started since then, but maybe we’ll get a new set in the year 3000. Makes me curious if there are a bunch of unknown 100 year performances conceived around the turns of centuries.
Anyway, I like the Long Player’s description of survival at the end; even if the music seems silly, these are interesting questions - “How does one keep a piece of music playing across generations? How does one prepare for its technological adaptability, knowing how few technologies have remained viable over the last millenium? How does one legislate for its upkeep? And how can one communicate that responsibility to those who might be looking after it some 950 years after its original custodians have perished?”
Anyway, I like the Long Player’s description of survival at the end; even if the music seems silly, these are interesting questions - “How does one keep a piece of music playing across generations? How does one prepare for its technological adaptability, knowing how few technologies have remained viable over the last millenium? How does one legislate for its upkeep? And how can one communicate that responsibility to those who might be looking after it some 950 years after its original custodians have perished?”
I had read the portion you quoted and found it interesting as well.
I've always been fascinated by long running processes. I'm sure you might have heard about the Clock of the Long Now [1] (Wikipedia article [2] seems more useful than the official website), which is meant to work for 10000 years. It's under construction, but their strategies to handle adversities over a 10000 year period worth looking into.
Related to that, I've read about an attempt by a software engineer presumably named Brandur who, inspired by the aforementioned clock, has attempted to build a software that would send out tweets for the next 10000 years [3]. While I personally feel it probably wouldn't succeed because there's too many things that can go wrong, it was nice to read the considerations that went into the program. Perhaps more than tweeting for the next 10000 years itself, Brandur was really trying to point out that it's difficult to build long lasting software products.
Writing software that endures for a long time without too much additional maintenance is something I'd like to do.
Another long running — though in comparison to the above much smaller — group of equipments are the space probes Voyager 1 (launched in 1977), Voyager 2 (1977) and New Horizons (2006). Unless I'm mistaken they all continue to function in limited ways and continue to send back data to the earth. Isn't it mind-blowing that something that left Earth about 45 years ago still works?! (Or maybe it's not mind blowing because I guess space doesn't have as much distrubances as the Earth).
I also like long running processes in nature. Comets are one of them. Isn't it just so cool that some of them actually (very likely) come from Oort cloud and their orbits can take hundreds or even thousands of years?
Halley's Comet — which has an orbital period of 76 years, and whose appearances have been recorded by various people in various places over the past couple of thousand years — will show up again in 2061, nearly 40 years from now. I sincerely hope I can see it then. Infact I have a calendar reminder set up for it in 2061 July. Just in case I forget. (The calendar program I currently use might die first. Or I could be dead).
[1] https://longnow.org/clock/
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_of_the_Long_Now
[3] https://brandur.org/10000-years
I've always been fascinated by long running processes. I'm sure you might have heard about the Clock of the Long Now [1] (Wikipedia article [2] seems more useful than the official website), which is meant to work for 10000 years. It's under construction, but their strategies to handle adversities over a 10000 year period worth looking into.
Related to that, I've read about an attempt by a software engineer presumably named Brandur who, inspired by the aforementioned clock, has attempted to build a software that would send out tweets for the next 10000 years [3]. While I personally feel it probably wouldn't succeed because there's too many things that can go wrong, it was nice to read the considerations that went into the program. Perhaps more than tweeting for the next 10000 years itself, Brandur was really trying to point out that it's difficult to build long lasting software products.
Writing software that endures for a long time without too much additional maintenance is something I'd like to do.
Another long running — though in comparison to the above much smaller — group of equipments are the space probes Voyager 1 (launched in 1977), Voyager 2 (1977) and New Horizons (2006). Unless I'm mistaken they all continue to function in limited ways and continue to send back data to the earth. Isn't it mind-blowing that something that left Earth about 45 years ago still works?! (Or maybe it's not mind blowing because I guess space doesn't have as much distrubances as the Earth).
I also like long running processes in nature. Comets are one of them. Isn't it just so cool that some of them actually (very likely) come from Oort cloud and their orbits can take hundreds or even thousands of years?
Halley's Comet — which has an orbital period of 76 years, and whose appearances have been recorded by various people in various places over the past couple of thousand years — will show up again in 2061, nearly 40 years from now. I sincerely hope I can see it then. Infact I have a calendar reminder set up for it in 2061 July. Just in case I forget. (The calendar program I currently use might die first. Or I could be dead).
[1] https://longnow.org/clock/
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_of_the_Long_Now
[3] https://brandur.org/10000-years
They could also play a superpermutation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tpNuulTeSQ
Only 639 years?
It would take approximately 1.3m years to ring every permutation of the 16 bells in the tower of the church of St Martin in the Bull Ring, Birmingham, UK.[0] I'm not sure the bells, tower or ringers would last that long though, get there early to avoid disappointment.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Martin_in_the_Bull_Ring
It would take approximately 1.3m years to ring every permutation of the 16 bells in the tower of the church of St Martin in the Bull Ring, Birmingham, UK.[0] I'm not sure the bells, tower or ringers would last that long though, get there early to avoid disappointment.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Martin_in_the_Bull_Ring
Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.
I've don't know why people are so fascinated with John Cage's conceptual music like 4′33″ which is 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence. It doesn't do anything for me and seems like b.s.
It's not what you think. The concept isn't "oh ha ha, here's 'music' that has no sound, smoke that!". It's that while you're sitting there with the performer doing nothing, there's still sound going on around you. Creaking chairs, water in pipes, bus going by outside the venue... If someone makes a recording that is literally a string of 0 bits, they're doing something different than Cage's piece. (EDIT: Although while listening to that recording you the listener can experience the sound of the space you are in. So perhaps it would be the same thing, in a way.)
Cage was interested in how -- or whether -- accidental and incidental noise could be incorporated or experienced as music. 4'33" is just the most notorious (and probably starkest) expression of that idea.
Cage was interested in how -- or whether -- accidental and incidental noise could be incorporated or experienced as music. 4'33" is just the most notorious (and probably starkest) expression of that idea.
I get that but do people really need to pretend it is art to sit silently in a room full of people in a concert hall and notice the ambient sounds long with their thoughts and feelings. People who sit in meditation with others do this all the time. I suppose the concept is foreign to most Westerners so they need an artist to come alone and give it the stamp of approval.
"Let's have a moment of silence for those we have lost"
People understand the above and do it without complaint
"Let's sit quietly in meditation and notice our environment, thoughts and feelings. You may find it helpful to focus on your breath"
Most people grudgingly do this but find it boring and unnecessary
John Cage: "Listen to my piece 4' 33" which the musicians on stage won't play"
People: "Oh my God, John Cage is brilliant. What an amazing artist! I can't wait to tell my friends that I 'heard' this"
"Let's have a moment of silence for those we have lost"
People understand the above and do it without complaint
"Let's sit quietly in meditation and notice our environment, thoughts and feelings. You may find it helpful to focus on your breath"
Most people grudgingly do this but find it boring and unnecessary
John Cage: "Listen to my piece 4' 33" which the musicians on stage won't play"
People: "Oh my God, John Cage is brilliant. What an amazing artist! I can't wait to tell my friends that I 'heard' this"
I would say that what Cage added was indeed the statement (or maybe question) that those noises are music. And listening to music is a different thing than meditation. That said, one can definitely disagree with his perspective on it.
Ambient sounds do not fit the definition of music according to Oxford:
vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion
That said, I get that it's interesting for sparking conversations and thought about music
https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/from-no-such-thing-as-silence-j...
like Duchamp's urinal
https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/duchamp-fountain-t07573
Needless to say, I don't ever put 4' 33" on play and I don't have a replica of the urinal hanging on my wall
vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion
That said, I get that it's interesting for sparking conversations and thought about music
https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/from-no-such-thing-as-silence-j...
like Duchamp's urinal
https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/duchamp-fountain-t07573
Needless to say, I don't ever put 4' 33" on play and I don't have a replica of the urinal hanging on my wall
I agree, it's pretentious nonsense that only exists so people can pretend to like it and scoff at the unsophisticated proles who call the spade a spade.
How many John Cage fans have you actually had a drink and talked with?
A few? 4'33" is well known enough that I've heard it brought up in conversation a few times in my life. Is this meant to be a round-about "your friends aren't sophisticated" putdown?
I think it's quite clear from your comment above that you were the one engaging in putdowns.
I was simply responding with an honest question. I wanted to know how many actual John Cage fans you've had a real conversation with. Because if you ever had, I don't think you'd have the attitude you displayed above.
And no, hearing 4'33" brought up a few times doesn't really count.
I was simply responding with an honest question. I wanted to know how many actual John Cage fans you've had a real conversation with. Because if you ever had, I don't think you'd have the attitude you displayed above.
And no, hearing 4'33" brought up a few times doesn't really count.
John Cage reads from some of his writings in this longish video on YouTube and explains some of the ideas that he was constantly exploring. This video also has Rahsaan Roland Kirk playing three saxophones at the same time. The whole thing is very 1964 but for me put a lot of John Cage’s work into context.
https://youtu.be/9YbA8SXFsEE
https://youtu.be/9YbA8SXFsEE
Reminds me this instalation in Hamburg Kunsthale, where artist constructed conditions for creation of a stalactite. It will be ready in about 500 years: https://www.hamburger-kunsthalle.de/sammlung-online/bogomir-...
Related:
639-year-long John Cage organ performance has a long-awaited chord change today - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24384140 - Sept 2020 (1 comment)
639-year-long John Cage organ performance has a long-awaited chord change today - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24384140 - Sept 2020 (1 comment)
Damn, I missed the start of this performance. Does anyone know when the next is scheduled to start?
"A pretentious piece of avant garde struggles to remain relevant"
If you play long enough, will you not at some point infringe someone's copyright?
Or will the lawsuit take 639 years too?
Or will the lawsuit take 639 years too?
I'm pretty sure it would be considered fair use, even if it was quite heavily influenced (and in some parts, taken) from a work. It isn't like anyone is going to listen to the two pieces and get them confused nor is any copyright holder going to lose money because someone plays their song so slowly that most folks just hear a single tone, even if they stay for days.
Depending on the criteria, it may not be the longest piece ever.
* On July 10, 2014, the band [Bull of Heaven] released 305: Hostages are Human Beings. On July 12, 2014, 303: n(k), 304: 0(2^18×5^18) and 306: It is Not a Lack of Love were released. On the very next day, they released several other tracks of various lengths. By the time, 310: ΩΣPx0(2^18×5^18)p*k*k*k is their longest release, and lasts for 3.343 quindecillion years.*
ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_of_Heaven_%28band%29#2014...
* On July 10, 2014, the band [Bull of Heaven] released 305: Hostages are Human Beings. On July 12, 2014, 303: n(k), 304: 0(2^18×5^18) and 306: It is Not a Lack of Love were released. On the very next day, they released several other tracks of various lengths. By the time, 310: ΩΣPx0(2^18×5^18)p*k*k*k is their longest release, and lasts for 3.343 quindecillion years.*
ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_of_Heaven_%28band%29#2014...
This video presents a version where the piece is sped up to 36 seconds in length: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5-Yo328Rp4
Unfortunately the choice of using a sawtooth wave for playback of an organ piece makes it nearly just as unintelligible as the 639 year performance.
Reminds me of the Culture series book "Look to Windward" - in which a composer creates an almost everlasting symphony whos finale coincides with the arrival of the light of an ancient supernova on his planet (IIRC)
The phrasing confused me. It is being performed for almost 21 years (since 2001) and it will be continuously performed for the next 618 years (hopefully).
Initially I thought it was being performed since year 1383 (639 years ago).
Initially I thought it was being performed since year 1383 (639 years ago).
This is so called conceptualism, or conceptual art. art for which the idea behind the work is more important than the finished art object.
And I thought 20 minute prog rock songs were awesome.
Not prog rock but I used Moroder's 15+ minutes long "Love to love you baby" and "I feel love" when doing 4+hrs vinyl sets in disco bars, plenty of time to go to the bathroom. If I had Göttsching E2-E4 I'd have spun that one too.
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LOL the longest music piece on earth is pioneered by Schumann. Not the composer, Earth's Schumann resonance. Good luck beating that. And whoever dares arguing it is not music, in the context of Cage brain farts, is a hypocrite.
N00B Cage can name his 639yo piece "Hello I'm new here".
Outside the earth there is that cosmic background radiation that is hard to beat.
N00B Cage can name his 639yo piece "Hello I'm new here".
Outside the earth there is that cosmic background radiation that is hard to beat.
Music for the thousanders from Anathem.
Interesting. Besides the fact that they would sing to themselves but yes, when you live on a different time-scale you probably would have entirely different musical art. Though I personally do not think this is interesting and I suspect a thousander wouldn't either, they seemed rather more complex creatures.
EDIT: hprotagonist beat me to this :) Took a while for me to find the link. Ignore me
Interesting, will need to check it out.
Also there is https://longplayer.org/
which is on the same idea as this piece
Interesting, will need to check it out.
Also there is https://longplayer.org/
which is on the same idea as this piece
[deleted]
My cool hipster roommate told me about this 10 years ago when I first moved out for school, and I’m now the age she was back then (and the piece is 10 years older)
Dude. Turn it up! This is my favorite part.
I wish Cage had kept the acronym ASAP
The page on the linked official web site has already link rotted within a few months!
I assume that this project has funding. I'd like to see the details of that.
Does anyone love this as music, rather than as an idea? Of composers, there are two schools: those who try to express something interesting musically, and those who produce interesting concepts. Some of Cage's work, especially, takes the second approach to extremes, where it cannot even be experienced as music. I don't think any of that sort of music will survive long, because the concept is no longer clever after it loses its novelty.
It's pretty silly IMO. Extreme Concept™ isn't difficult to do, and it's even less difficult to imagine.
It's trivial to make extremely long time-based pieces on the web. You load the page, it works out the time/date, and it plays whatever the algorithm says is right for the time date. With the right algo you can make pieces that last for millions of years.
And so on.
There is a sense in which it's an interesting idea, but it's also a cultural dead end. You can only make it bigger and more extreme, and that's more about spectacle than music.
It's trivial to make extremely long time-based pieces on the web. You load the page, it works out the time/date, and it plays whatever the algorithm says is right for the time date. With the right algo you can make pieces that last for millions of years.
And so on.
There is a sense in which it's an interesting idea, but it's also a cultural dead end. You can only make it bigger and more extreme, and that's more about spectacle than music.
Agreed, extreme concepts are not hard. But I think the fascinating part is the salesmanship involved. Something I've noticed, really high concept artists are fantastic salesmen... and really shitty artists (80% of the time). They can convince people that a duct taped banana on the wall or just splatter paint can emotionally transcend you. Dont get me wrong, I like some abstract art when there is an aesthetic quality to it. But the worship status given to something like this, one incredibly slow note every however months... come on. You could do the same with Vanilla Ice's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 song from the 90s. Doesnt mean anything... other than that song still slaps :)
I'll take listening to an amateur messing with guitar chords while drunk in a shitty bar over something like this. Because I can actually experience the shitty bar music. You literally cannot experience this "art project".
I'll take listening to an amateur messing with guitar chords while drunk in a shitty bar over something like this. Because I can actually experience the shitty bar music. You literally cannot experience this "art project".
The artist as messenger - through inspiration or otherwise to bring us a new way of looking at things; the artist as theoretician - to build on work that has gone on before and progressively expand our horizons; the artist as performer - acting out a role in society.
I'd suggest all three are present in artists across the ages, but in recent times the last seems to have become more prominent.
I'd suggest all three are present in artists across the ages, but in recent times the last seems to have become more prominent.
No, it's not trivial to make extremely long time-based pieces on the web.
Because you have to keep the computer running continuously. That turns out to be extremely difficult.
So there is no spectacle, here.
Part of the magic of Cage's piece, in this incarnation, is that someone actually built the special organ, in a suitable space that might plausibly remain undisturbed for several centuries. It requires some maintenance and some care and feeding, of course, but not much. So one doesn't have to suspend disbelief too much, here—this performance may actually occur as planned. It's been going for over 20 years so far, after all.
Because you have to keep the computer running continuously. That turns out to be extremely difficult.
So there is no spectacle, here.
Part of the magic of Cage's piece, in this incarnation, is that someone actually built the special organ, in a suitable space that might plausibly remain undisturbed for several centuries. It requires some maintenance and some care and feeding, of course, but not much. So one doesn't have to suspend disbelief too much, here—this performance may actually occur as planned. It's been going for over 20 years so far, after all.
[deleted]
This is a bad take, but unsurprising when most Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things. If it's a cultural dead end it's because of the culture not the idea.
That aside, John Cage was having these ideas when they weren't as obvious as they are today and we have the benefit of hindsight. Dismissing that is also a pretty ignorant mistake.
That aside, John Cage was having these ideas when they weren't as obvious as they are today and we have the benefit of hindsight. Dismissing that is also a pretty ignorant mistake.
> most Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things.
We must be in different Western cultures because I definitely don't see a lot of skill and virtuosity in most popular music.
We must be in different Western cultures because I definitely don't see a lot of skill and virtuosity in most popular music.
> We must be in different Western cultures because I definitely don't see a lot of skill and virtuosity in most popular music.
I think it depends on the lens you use. If you're looking through a "Tom Scholz" lens, that kind of skill and instrumental virtuosity may not exist today (although artists like St. Vincent are an argument that they do). But tech has completely changed music making, production, and distribution since that time, so today's Toms are people like Finneas O'Connell, and making music today is more akin to software design and engineering.
I think it depends on the lens you use. If you're looking through a "Tom Scholz" lens, that kind of skill and instrumental virtuosity may not exist today (although artists like St. Vincent are an argument that they do). But tech has completely changed music making, production, and distribution since that time, so today's Toms are people like Finneas O'Connell, and making music today is more akin to software design and engineering.
Would you mind elaborating on what you mean? Why is that a bad take? What is culturally relevant about this? I’m not saying it isn’t, but I don’t know what it is, and tearing down others doesn’t help me.
John Cage didn’t intend this piece to last 639 years, right? What ideas of his are you referring to? This long running organ piece was conceived by someone in Germany and is intended to highlight the history of Halberstadt, right?
The question @TheOtherHobbes is raising seems relevant: how does this performance contribute to musical culture, or even to Cage’s work? It can’t be enjoyed as music, it’s more of a logistical piece intended to create a mythology. In that sense, this performance is, in a way, very much lauding a sort of skill over most other things about the music - the skill of pure perseverance. Like other conceptual art, it’s the story of this work that is interesting, but not really the work itself. You seem to suggest otherwise, would you mind coloring that in for me, so I can appreciate it more?
John Cage didn’t intend this piece to last 639 years, right? What ideas of his are you referring to? This long running organ piece was conceived by someone in Germany and is intended to highlight the history of Halberstadt, right?
The question @TheOtherHobbes is raising seems relevant: how does this performance contribute to musical culture, or even to Cage’s work? It can’t be enjoyed as music, it’s more of a logistical piece intended to create a mythology. In that sense, this performance is, in a way, very much lauding a sort of skill over most other things about the music - the skill of pure perseverance. Like other conceptual art, it’s the story of this work that is interesting, but not really the work itself. You seem to suggest otherwise, would you mind coloring that in for me, so I can appreciate it more?
The best guide is probably Cage's book, "Silence". Contains a lot of Cage's interaction with Zen, random change procedures, silence, form and time in music, and all the ideas that are contained within his various experiments.
It would be hard to explain in an easy sentence or two on here. If I thought I could do it, I'd try. It might end up looking like a Zen koan. :)
It would be hard to explain in an easy sentence or two on here. If I thought I could do it, I'd try. It might end up looking like a Zen koan. :)
That ignores the fact that this Halberstadt project wasn’t designed by Cage, and the timing is for reasons specific to Halberstadt. Do you feel like Cage’s ideas call for a piece to last hundreds of years? It seems like all the ideas you just mentioned are thrown out the window when a single note lasts for years at a time, and zero people are present to witness the full performance, or even the full playing of a single note. This isn’t being done for music reasons, it’s being done explicitly for spectacle reasons, as described by the project page.
I think Cage might ask why you are so very certain why a "spectacle" can't be art, too. Especially one like this.
Oh that’s totally fair. A spectacle absolutely can be art. This is a bit of a different goal post than above though, isn’t it? And while we can speculate that Cage might say this, it’s (speculating) also possible that he wouldn’t approve of his music being used as a town attraction, or that he wouldn’t approve of music that can’t physically be experienced by humans, right? Either way, isn’t it equally fair to question whether a spectacle is musically and culturally relevant, like @TheOtherHobbes did?
I don't believe you are arguing in good faith so I will not be coloring anything in for you.
You’re wrong, I’m genuinely curious, and like many here fascinated by experimental and generative arts. You may be lashing out at the very people most likely to agree with your point of view. Sorry to hear that you’re unable to engage.
>This is a bad take, but unsurprising when most Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things
Why is that a bad thing?
Why is that a bad thing?
If you think music and art are entirely about skill that's fine, but I personally am not interested in hearing anything further about your opinions in that case.
> but I personally am not interested in hearing anything further about your opinions in that case.
Fuck me, you say? No, fuck YOU.
Feel free to mute me (edit: assuming HN has that feature) if you're unwilling to engage in an exchange of opinions and perspectives like a reasonable adult.
Fuck me, you say? No, fuck YOU.
Feel free to mute me (edit: assuming HN has that feature) if you're unwilling to engage in an exchange of opinions and perspectives like a reasonable adult.
>> Western culture still lauds virtuosity playing and "skill" over most other things
It was my understanding that everyone had heard.
It was my understanding that everyone had heard.
The work doesn't necessarily argue against you. It may have been the intention, or it may be the effect of the work that ideas like yours come into existence. One idea of conceptual art is that the work plays out in your mind, and the physical creation is secondary, utilitarian even.
The authenticity of the piece and it's validity is reinforced by our conversation and replay.
On this measure the timeline is arbitrary, and trumping it is a second work all together, creating a new conversation.
The authenticity of the piece and it's validity is reinforced by our conversation and replay.
On this measure the timeline is arbitrary, and trumping it is a second work all together, creating a new conversation.
What good does this work of Cage bring the world?
Most people think it is uninteresting and a total waste of time.
I can also understand the aggression a lot of Cage's work got in the past. It's very destructive for people to listen a long time to a man who is only speaking letters. Almost like torture.
Is a waste of time art?
Most people think it is uninteresting and a total waste of time.
I can also understand the aggression a lot of Cage's work got in the past. It's very destructive for people to listen a long time to a man who is only speaking letters. Almost like torture.
Is a waste of time art?
It's not the job of the work to bring good to the world, nor to interest people in the slightest, as can be said for yourself, or myself. Though you're right that the success of the work is probably intrinsically tied to it's interest.
Art, and media in general are productions of culture which celebrate our humanity. That is, they rejoice in all of our abilities to perceive, conceive and enact upon the world. Wasting people's time in this light makes people aware of their time, and allows for further interrogations of our humanities to arise. Just as we're doing now.
It's good to remember that art only gains it's status through a production being named art by an exhibitor. IMO there's no special purpose to the term. Consuming art is just another form of recreation, and people are right to hate it for any reason, just that tyranny of what is useful is usually not in the human spirits best interest.
Art, and media in general are productions of culture which celebrate our humanity. That is, they rejoice in all of our abilities to perceive, conceive and enact upon the world. Wasting people's time in this light makes people aware of their time, and allows for further interrogations of our humanities to arise. Just as we're doing now.
It's good to remember that art only gains it's status through a production being named art by an exhibitor. IMO there's no special purpose to the term. Consuming art is just another form of recreation, and people are right to hate it for any reason, just that tyranny of what is useful is usually not in the human spirits best interest.
IMO the point is to question the limits of what can be considered music. There's precedent (way too much in fact) in visual arts. Is a signed toilet art? Mona Lisa with a mustache? Banana taped to a wall?
None of these things are meant to be enjoyed in the traditional sense. But they might make you think, or make you angry.
So what good do these things bring the world? I don't know, probably none.
None of these things are meant to be enjoyed in the traditional sense. But they might make you think, or make you angry.
So what good do these things bring the world? I don't know, probably none.
I think the best response to your claim that "most people" find Cage uninteresting is this book intro that e. e. cummings wrote. He had a few things to say about "mostpeople":
https://www.americanpoems.com/poets/eecummings/introduction-...
https://www.americanpoems.com/poets/eecummings/introduction-...
[deleted]
This is all concept, of course. But walking around the dishevelled old church, listening to the constant humm in the background is an experience that grows from knowing that this tone will last for years until it will change as prescribed. A tone change is a small event that draws some attention from wider circles. There are people who have cared for the project for more than 20 years and it's not only folks who initiated it. It will be fascinating to see how long there will be interest and resources to keep it up.
Maybe that's part of his art? To show where music and experiencing something as music "ends" and where art "begins". Exploring the boundaries of what constitutes music or art is interesting to me.
> I don't think any of that sort of music will survive long, because the concept is no longer clever after it loses its novelty.
At some point it stops being a novelty and becomes a historical event, where a piece of music has already been playing for 400 years. Wouldn't it be interesting to visit a place where you know that people hundreds of years ago have listened not only to the same piece of music but to the same performance as you are experiencing right now. That listenership spans centuries?
> I don't think any of that sort of music will survive long, because the concept is no longer clever after it loses its novelty.
At some point it stops being a novelty and becomes a historical event, where a piece of music has already been playing for 400 years. Wouldn't it be interesting to visit a place where you know that people hundreds of years ago have listened not only to the same piece of music but to the same performance as you are experiencing right now. That listenership spans centuries?
I believe we're agreeing, except in our value judgments. You say:
> Exploring the boundaries of what constitutes music or art is interesting to me.
Interesting, yes, as a concept, and perhaps even as a cultural event, but we certainly agree that it's a different kind of experience than a musical performance.
> Wouldn't it be interesting to visit a place where you know that people hundreds of years ago have listened not only to the same piece of music but to the same performance as you are experiencing right now. That listenership spans centuries?
I honestly have no interest in visiting such a place to hear a note, or even the change from one note to another. And recognize that what interests you in such a visit is not musical interest, but conceptual interest.
> Exploring the boundaries of what constitutes music or art is interesting to me.
Interesting, yes, as a concept, and perhaps even as a cultural event, but we certainly agree that it's a different kind of experience than a musical performance.
> Wouldn't it be interesting to visit a place where you know that people hundreds of years ago have listened not only to the same piece of music but to the same performance as you are experiencing right now. That listenership spans centuries?
I honestly have no interest in visiting such a place to hear a note, or even the change from one note to another. And recognize that what interests you in such a visit is not musical interest, but conceptual interest.
I think that there are several issues with this perspective.
Firstly, it presupposes that the music and the ‘concept’ are distinct. I love say Mahler 2 and the Rite of Spring but I love those pieces as a collection of notes and a concept together and trying to separate the ‘concept’ from the notes is impossible - when I listen to them the concept is an essential part of the experience.
In this case I can imagine listening to the notes in the knowledge of the wider context and being profoundly moved by the experience. I don’t see this as any different to music that is highly repetitive (and so not ‘interesting’ musically), for example, but still elicits an emotional response from many listeners.
Finally, if the classification is of composers into two camps, with Cage being in the wrong camp, then I’m afraid that the idea that Cage’s music won’t survive long isn’t backed up by the evidence as most of it is still doing really well many years after it was composed.
Firstly, it presupposes that the music and the ‘concept’ are distinct. I love say Mahler 2 and the Rite of Spring but I love those pieces as a collection of notes and a concept together and trying to separate the ‘concept’ from the notes is impossible - when I listen to them the concept is an essential part of the experience.
In this case I can imagine listening to the notes in the knowledge of the wider context and being profoundly moved by the experience. I don’t see this as any different to music that is highly repetitive (and so not ‘interesting’ musically), for example, but still elicits an emotional response from many listeners.
Finally, if the classification is of composers into two camps, with Cage being in the wrong camp, then I’m afraid that the idea that Cage’s music won’t survive long isn’t backed up by the evidence as most of it is still doing really well many years after it was composed.
Is it wrong to explore the boundaries of the art form for reasons other than enjoyment? Formal experimentation is powerful and gives ideas to later composers. By constraining oneself to the goal of enjoyable performance, one can't be as free to experiment formally.
Wrong? I don't see it as a moral issue. I see it as an abandonment of music, but not a moral wrong.
I think there's a value distinction to be drawn between boundary explorations that expand the art form and those that simply depart from any definition of it separate from the other arts. That leaves a broad scope for innovation: the composers of the ars subtilior, Carlo Gesualdo, Hector Berlioz, Debussy and Satie, Harry Partch, Antheil and Edgard Varese, and the progression of serialism from Schoenberg through Webern to Boulez — all of them explored and expanded the boundaries of music, but you can still experience their works as music, even if some have argued that it's bad music. It all can be, and has been, accepted as music.
But some of Cage's works (of those which he presented as musical) depart from musical material and musical experience to play with the nonmusical culture that surrounds music and musicians, or, abandoning that, the idea of performance itself. Obviously 4'33", with its formalities of opening and closing a piano, is an example of the former, but his lesser-known 0'00" runs simply, "In a situation provided with maximum amplification, perform a disciplined action." In that case, the performer is as justified in a disciplined soiling of their pants as any musical act. I refuse to countenance such wanking. (Cage was by no means alone in this, but he's probably the most famous.)
I'm glad to see that even academic composers seem to have retreated from this dissolution.
I think there's a value distinction to be drawn between boundary explorations that expand the art form and those that simply depart from any definition of it separate from the other arts. That leaves a broad scope for innovation: the composers of the ars subtilior, Carlo Gesualdo, Hector Berlioz, Debussy and Satie, Harry Partch, Antheil and Edgard Varese, and the progression of serialism from Schoenberg through Webern to Boulez — all of them explored and expanded the boundaries of music, but you can still experience their works as music, even if some have argued that it's bad music. It all can be, and has been, accepted as music.
But some of Cage's works (of those which he presented as musical) depart from musical material and musical experience to play with the nonmusical culture that surrounds music and musicians, or, abandoning that, the idea of performance itself. Obviously 4'33", with its formalities of opening and closing a piano, is an example of the former, but his lesser-known 0'00" runs simply, "In a situation provided with maximum amplification, perform a disciplined action." In that case, the performer is as justified in a disciplined soiling of their pants as any musical act. I refuse to countenance such wanking. (Cage was by no means alone in this, but he's probably the most famous.)
I'm glad to see that even academic composers seem to have retreated from this dissolution.
I enjoy reading Cage a lot more than listening to his music (for that matter, he was fine with not being called a musician if people deemed his work not worthy of that, I can’t recall exactly but I believe sound architect is the alternative job description he proposed).
I don’t relate to most of his music but I do think he was on an honest quest for something. In fact, I think it could even be fair to say he was a philosopher using sound as his medium, instead of a musician.
I don’t relate to most of his music but I do think he was on an honest quest for something. In fact, I think it could even be fair to say he was a philosopher using sound as his medium, instead of a musician.
I agree with everything you wrote there.
4’33” isn’t about about non musical culture although some have mistakenly construed it as such. Cage made it absolutely clear what it was about in his comments about the piece.
I could have worded that better: to make its point about sounds and, if you please, music, it depends on nonmusical cultural expectations that surround musical performance. Its adherence to the outward trappings of musical performance in the 20th century prompt the audience to perceive what occurs during it as part of a "performance". Apart from that, there's nothing more musical about it than sitting alone in a meadow — which I think was essentially Cage's point.
That I find myself using the word "point" so often here emphasizes, to me, that Cage was engaging in philosophy rather than musical composition.
That I find myself using the word "point" so often here emphasizes, to me, that Cage was engaging in philosophy rather than musical composition.
Your last sentence is very interesting and probably captures our different perspectives. I see Cage’s work as pointing towards an experience that I might enjoy and be enriched by in practice (not always but then I don’t always enjoy performances of my favourite works) and the concept is part but only a part of that.
Messiaen found sitting in a meadow quite a musical experience!
Messiaen found sitting in a meadow quite a musical experience!
That's why I chose the sitting in a meadow comparison: it's an experience you could also choose to interpret as musical even though it is not organized sound. An aside: I think an awareness of and exposure to the sounds of nature is beneficial to a composer, even if I don't think it's intrinsically musical.
Well you're trading music for a story about music.
It's a matter of taste, of course.
It's a matter of taste, of course.
plausible but [citation needed]
Its an excellent point. You really cant get a sense of the whole thing since its mostly one tone stretched out most of the time. Hopefully it survives the stated 639 years
You could listen to one of the versions out there that only lasts an hour. That would give you a good sense of the full piece.
Then you could go listen to a snippet of it, in this extremely slow version, and get a sense of that.
Then combine the two.
Then you could go listen to a snippet of it, in this extremely slow version, and get a sense of that.
Then combine the two.
Artists are generally in the first camp. Nonartists in second.
Go to a gallery full of abstract expressionism. Hear people asking, "what does it mean?"
Go to a gallery full of abstract expressionism. Hear people asking, "what does it mean?"
The first 15 years weren’t so catchy, but the chorus starting in easily 2016 is catchy as hell
Anyone else recently heard about this on the Uhh Yeah Dude podcast?
If nothing else this piece is optimistic.
seems pretty cynical to me
By optimistic, I meant the idea that humans would be around for 600
years.
Saying “Encore!” in 2640…
Once again, for those looking down on artists with their keen Vulcan engineer logic brains:
modern art = i could do that + yeah but you didn't
modern art = i could do that + yeah but you didn't
modern art = i could do that + yeah but you didn't + you didn't have the artist's cachet + you didn't have the connections to exhibit your work + you don't have the body of experience that lead you to this particular output + nobody is going to care about your low-effort piece but somehow this artist got them too
I think this still completely misses what's interesting about this: the number of interesting performance attempts, not the piece itself which is neither first/last of the concept or the focus of the post.
it would be nice to live through a crescendo
I did it was called the eighties. But truth to be said, people were not 100% happy, yes there was the nuclear MADness, but also deep down they knew this modern society was making them more and more irrelevant. But they clinged on the perks and tried not to mind.
homonculus1(1)
why... lol
“Art”
Sorry, but anyone who thinks this will see completion is delusional. It'll be amazing if our distant posterity will recognize a map of today's Europe, much less be interested in this song's performance.
We live closer to Christopher Columbus than the end of this song. Think about how much the world has changed in that time.
We live closer to Christopher Columbus than the end of this song. Think about how much the world has changed in that time.
when columbus set a foot in america there were 1000 year old pubs in europe that are still open today.
sometimes it's hard to understand how mind boggingly old europe is, being from the younger continent.
sometimes it's hard to understand how mind boggingly old europe is, being from the younger continent.
The Americas are just as old, it is just that people in their arrogance have chosen to overlook the works and achievements of Mesoamerican civilization.
History did not begin with the arrival of the Europeans, that is just when colonization began. The long history of these continents is treated as some sort of lost and mysterious thing of times past, yet the people from those civilizations are still here today.
Cage and Glass both understood this and named a number of their works aptly.
History did not begin with the arrival of the Europeans, that is just when colonization began. The long history of these continents is treated as some sort of lost and mysterious thing of times past, yet the people from those civilizations are still here today.
Cage and Glass both understood this and named a number of their works aptly.
Medieval Christianity revived and resumed ancient Greek culture and philosophy. That's a larger gap than we're talking about here. There's precedent if you look hard enough.
i also have a nervous breakdown when i see evidence of the HRE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiKWfcy-Z70
But then again, the source is an incredibly beautiful song which has an interesting time signature and chord progression:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdZSOoOF5Ms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKMAV8pvlOA