Nitrogen dioxide exposure due to gas and propane combustion by U.S. stoves(science.org)
science.org
Nitrogen dioxide exposure due to gas and propane combustion by U.S. stoves
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adm8680
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Having bought an induction powered stove recently, I am genuinely surprised by the popularity of gas powered stoves. It’s just so incredibly efficient and fun to cook with induction stoves
"Popularity" isn't the right word. Most kitchens have the energy source for the stove locked in a time of construction,, and it would be non-trivial remodeling job to change it. It's not like people go out shopping for gas vs. electric stoves every five years, like they do for different cars.
New battery-backed induction stoves from Channing Copper and Impulse Labs are meant to eliminate the need for an electrical upgrade...
https://www.batterytechonline.com/trends/why-a-battery-assis...
> One barrier to their widespread adoption, however, has been that they require a 220-volt electrical hookup, which means for most buyers the cost of an electrical panel upgrade on top of the price of the stove itself. But now a startup called Channing Street Copper Company has created a battery-assisted induction stove that can be plugged into a standard 120V outlet.
https://www.batterytechonline.com/trends/why-a-battery-assis...
> One barrier to their widespread adoption, however, has been that they require a 220-volt electrical hookup, which means for most buyers the cost of an electrical panel upgrade on top of the price of the stove itself. But now a startup called Channing Street Copper Company has created a battery-assisted induction stove that can be plugged into a standard 120V outlet.
Truthfully, that's what we did. It's not that difficult to run a 220v. You can even cap off a gas line and run in it it's place. The biggest problem you might have is needing to rewire part of your electrical box to make room.
People shop for cars every five years? That is more like every 15 years in my family.
[deleted]
We're remodeling a rental and having a gas stove is a big plus versus alternatives. Electric is poor for cooking and induction requires new pots and pans.
Induction requires a specific type of pots and pans. When we switched to induction we were pleased that we didn’t have to buy a single item to use our new stove.
In other words it really depends on the cookware you have today - it may require new cookwar, but it may not.
In other words it really depends on the cookware you have today - it may require new cookwar, but it may not.
Having used a plethora of stoves over my life, I can absolutely say I am convinced gas stoves are on their way out. I have not seen anything that an induction stove cannot do as well as a gas one. Even commercial establishments are switching to it. Will there be changes in how to use if effectively? Of course. That's to be expected. I can't see how the liability of an open flame won't outweigh changing.
A trend I don’t see people noticing is how much better and cheaper electronics is getting in recent years and how much that will change the world. Cheaper induction cooktops being just one of many examples, going from a luxury item to an everyday item is enough to largely squeeze gas out. I don’t like to see it being done via legislation, better off leaving it up to individuals and insurance. Let it die a natural death without making it social signal.
The reliability of mid grade appliances is trash. You can expect a new range to maybe last 10 years on average. An electric/induction stove will be so costly to repair you might as well buy a new one. A gas stove has much less complexity, and in a pinch you could just light it with a lighter.
That said I'm looking to buy an induction stove
That said I'm looking to buy an induction stove
Gas stoves continue to work when the electricity has failed (as it does sometimes, especially during storms). It can be days before electricity is restored after a bad storm.
That has happened to me literally once in over 40 years. Better off just have a back up camping stove so such a situation.
While this is valid, how often does this actually happen?
It doesn’t seem like it’s frequently enough to worry. If this is a concern, there are several ways to cook that can be stored in an emergency kit.
It doesn’t seem like it’s frequently enough to worry. If this is a concern, there are several ways to cook that can be stored in an emergency kit.
Like, during the Texas IcePocalypse? If we didn’t have a gas stove and a gas fireplace, my wife and I would have died. There’s no way out of this neighborhood if the roads are all frozen, because we live on one of the steepest hills in Austin.
Sure, freezing doesn’t happen all that often, but we’ve had two big freezes in the past twenty or so years that we’ve lived here, and ERCOT has had multiple long power outages in that time.
So, don’t just worry about freezes. You also have to worry about your power supply/distribution company being made up of incompetent fools who are just out to line their own pockets and those of the other billionaires in the state.
Sure, freezing doesn’t happen all that often, but we’ve had two big freezes in the past twenty or so years that we’ve lived here, and ERCOT has had multiple long power outages in that time.
So, don’t just worry about freezes. You also have to worry about your power supply/distribution company being made up of incompetent fools who are just out to line their own pockets and those of the other billionaires in the state.
I’m the gas fireplace is legit, but the stove can be replaced with butane cans.
I’ve been without heat in the Midwest in the winter (furnace died in a rental). It’s actually not that hard to keep a single room or two warm enough with simple painters plastic. Staple/tape them up and hang out in that room. By limiting airflow (don’t entirely cut off outside oxygen), you keep an amazing amount of heat in the space. Not warm, but certain manageable with a few layers of.
Propane heaters can also be used relatively safely.
I’ve been without heat in the Midwest in the winter (furnace died in a rental). It’s actually not that hard to keep a single room or two warm enough with simple painters plastic. Staple/tape them up and hang out in that room. By limiting airflow (don’t entirely cut off outside oxygen), you keep an amazing amount of heat in the space. Not warm, but certain manageable with a few layers of.
Propane heaters can also be used relatively safely.
If you have butane or propane heaters, sure.
But if you can’t safely get out of the house to go buy the nonexistent butane or propane heaters at the store because all the roads are frozen over and all the stores are closed, then that idea isn’t going to help you very much.
But if you can’t safely get out of the house to go buy the nonexistent butane or propane heaters at the store because all the roads are frozen over and all the stores are closed, then that idea isn’t going to help you very much.
> I have not seen anything that an induction stove cannot do as well as a gas one.
Char peppers for peeling.
Char peppers for peeling.
Use a broiler to do it instead. Fast and more even.
Blowtorch it. I have one for crème brûlée.
Wok stir-frying.
You can stir fry with induction (I just did so last week).
You do need to preheat the wok a bit longer, though, to make sure the sides are hot.
That said, gas or a wok cooker will undeniably work better.
You do need to preheat the wok a bit longer, though, to make sure the sides are hot.
That said, gas or a wok cooker will undeniably work better.
You can stir-fry on an induction cooker just like you can pull a caravan with a Fiat 500 (a small car for those who don't know the type), you just need a smaller caravan and travel at a slower pace. You might want to avoid those steep passes. Don't try to overtake, keep off the road when the wind is above 5 Bf. and avoid motorways.
I have a lot of experience in this what with me being Dutch - where Nasi Goreng (Indonesian-Chinese stir-fried rice) is somewhat of a national fare - and having cooked on:
- gas: one of the best options for stir-frying, you can use any type of wok/wadjang you want. Use the largest burner you can find so you can fry larger batches at the same time while keeping the heat up.
- resistance-electric (whether cast-iron or coil or ceramic or halogen): not what I'd choose for this, you need a flat-bottom pan which does not warp under high heat -> cast iron or heavy aluminium -> slow to respond. Generally not enough power for keeping up the heat while stir-frying larger batches.
- induction-electric: also needs a flat-bottom pan which needs to be ferromagnetic, many if not most domestic induction cookers lack the required power (4 kW or above) for a good result. Avoid 2 kW indiction cookers without 'boost' function as those are simply too weak for even small batches
- wood-burning stove with removable rings: together with gas the best option since you can sink the wok/wadjang down into the fire by removing enough rings and stoke up the fire to whatever heat you require. I can easily stir-fry 8 portions in a single batch in a large wok on the wood burner (nominal power 4.5 kW but it can go higher if needed).
So, gas or wood, take your pick. If you have to choose electric and you really want to be able to stir-fry you'll want to get an induction wok cooker.
I have a lot of experience in this what with me being Dutch - where Nasi Goreng (Indonesian-Chinese stir-fried rice) is somewhat of a national fare - and having cooked on:
- gas: one of the best options for stir-frying, you can use any type of wok/wadjang you want. Use the largest burner you can find so you can fry larger batches at the same time while keeping the heat up.
- resistance-electric (whether cast-iron or coil or ceramic or halogen): not what I'd choose for this, you need a flat-bottom pan which does not warp under high heat -> cast iron or heavy aluminium -> slow to respond. Generally not enough power for keeping up the heat while stir-frying larger batches.
- induction-electric: also needs a flat-bottom pan which needs to be ferromagnetic, many if not most domestic induction cookers lack the required power (4 kW or above) for a good result. Avoid 2 kW indiction cookers without 'boost' function as those are simply too weak for even small batches
- wood-burning stove with removable rings: together with gas the best option since you can sink the wok/wadjang down into the fire by removing enough rings and stoke up the fire to whatever heat you require. I can easily stir-fry 8 portions in a single batch in a large wok on the wood burner (nominal power 4.5 kW but it can go higher if needed).
So, gas or wood, take your pick. If you have to choose electric and you really want to be able to stir-fry you'll want to get an induction wok cooker.
But what if I do all my cooking in aluminum woks?? What then?
I enjoy cooking on one now that I am used to how fast it heats up.
The thing I like most are the levels of safety from the toddler- there’s a “lock” feature on the control panel that disables the controls. And if I forget that and he turns it on, nothing happens unless I also left something ferromagnetic on the cooktop. I haven’t tested yet what would happen with my keys or a fork but it could be good to know.
The thing I like most are the levels of safety from the toddler- there’s a “lock” feature on the control panel that disables the controls. And if I forget that and he turns it on, nothing happens unless I also left something ferromagnetic on the cooktop. I haven’t tested yet what would happen with my keys or a fork but it could be good to know.
I live in a coastal region that has hurricanes, ice storms and tornadoes. Gas stoves work during these storms, electric stoves often don't.
If you force me to use an electric stove then I will buy a wood-fired stove and use it. I will burn the (free) wood from trees downed by the storms and the (free) wood from homes downed by tornadoes. You will eat my pine resin smoke the remaining days of your life and I will give you my stove when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.
If you force me to use an electric stove then I will buy a wood-fired stove and use it. I will burn the (free) wood from trees downed by the storms and the (free) wood from homes downed by tornadoes. You will eat my pine resin smoke the remaining days of your life and I will give you my stove when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.
At least in the UK, almost all the induction hobs on the market have touch controls. Not having a knob per ring is a massive issue for some users.
Not sure what you meant by "some users" but as someone without physical disabilities it's an issue for me. They can't be used with wet hands, can't be used if they've been splashed (which is certainly a choice on something designed to be next to pots full of simmering hot liquid), and have truly bizarre firmware behind them -- for example, if I'm using two elements and am finished with one, it's quicker to turn the entire hob off and on again and re-energise one element than it is to turn an individual element off. I'm really enjoying induction over gas, but the "easy to clean" aspect is way oversold. Bring back knobs!
The vast majority of people have never experienced an induction range. They would also need to buy new cookware, and/or install a high voltage electric line to their kitchen (could easily be a $1k expense).
On top of this, gas is cheaper than electricity, and gas ranges are cheaper than induction ranges.
On top of this, gas is cheaper than electricity, and gas ranges are cheaper than induction ranges.
I’m by not stretch a cookware enthusiasts. But everything except one piece I bought over the past five years supported induction without me paying any attention to it whatsoever.
As far as costs are concerned, I have no clue. Since I am not in the US, basically every home here in Germany has the electric wiring required for an induction stove.
As far as costs are concerned, I have no clue. Since I am not in the US, basically every home here in Germany has the electric wiring required for an induction stove.
All of my cookwear works just the same on gas and induction? Everything from cast iron to steel pans to Teflon pans. What wouldn’t work?
I think I remember single pot I had issues with. It was cheap teflon one. Just need to be aware to pick stuff that is induction compatible and it should be fine. And most decent cookware is already there.
Glass/cremtaic cookware, copper, and aluminum cookware.
Though, you can get an "induction adapter" to fix that problem. You are better off with induction friendly cookware.
Though, you can get an "induction adapter" to fix that problem. You are better off with induction friendly cookware.
I haven’t bought cookware in a while, so I am probably wrong. ~10 or 15 years ago I thought there were separate pots and pans for induction stove tops.
For most day to day tasks in a home kitchen modern induction is fine.
I would like an induction range, and a pair of professional gas burners next to them.
Below folks are talking about charing peppers and wok cooking. Candidly these are two places where a gas range stands out. A flat bottom wok sucks, and I have torches but not one that is as complete burning as a range. From smores, to toasting tortillas to power outages gas some advantages!
While im doing the planing I have been wondering if I could get a 220 outlet and a UK plug for a proper kitchen kettle. What other counter top appliances would benefit from extra power?
I also want to keep the high flow gas line for outdoor grill/griddle combo because never having to buy propane again sounds like an upgrade.
I would like an induction range, and a pair of professional gas burners next to them.
Below folks are talking about charing peppers and wok cooking. Candidly these are two places where a gas range stands out. A flat bottom wok sucks, and I have torches but not one that is as complete burning as a range. From smores, to toasting tortillas to power outages gas some advantages!
While im doing the planing I have been wondering if I could get a 220 outlet and a UK plug for a proper kitchen kettle. What other counter top appliances would benefit from extra power?
I also want to keep the high flow gas line for outdoor grill/griddle combo because never having to buy propane again sounds like an upgrade.
1. If a home already has a gas stove it would take some money to get it disconnected/removed and then you need to spend money to buy a new induction stove. 2. Per kWth gas is significantly cheaper (on average) so gas stove likely cheaper to run despite lower efficiency. 3. Cheap induction stoves have at least these flaws: touch controls (which go mad when water is spilled), pulsing power control - on low level it looks like 1 sec boiling every 5 seconds instead of simmering.
I recently bough a counter-top induction hob and the cheapest option with physical controls I could find was 5x more expensive than one I've bought (which doesn't make me hate touch controls less).
I recently bough a counter-top induction hob and the cheapest option with physical controls I could find was 5x more expensive than one I've bought (which doesn't make me hate touch controls less).
Induction burners have thermostats! You can set one to a specific temperature and it will hold it. So much more precise than "medium low heat" for a gas stove.
California has the second highest electricity prices in the US. I’m paying $0.42/kWh and up to $0.53/kWh. Paying for more electricity is non-negotiable.
You probably run an AC. Electricity your induction stove would use is negligible. i.e. you probably use somewhere around 10-15 kWh per month for cooking.
15kWh on an induction stove will bring to boil about 100L of water[1]. If you are just boiling one 2L kettle of water for tea every day, you are out of 60L. Boiling potatoes, making stock, soups etc. is actually much more energy as you are not only bringing water to boil but keep it boiling, while it actively loses energy by making steam. You are probably not cooking much if at all.
1. https://blog.viktomas.com/graph/boiling-litre-of-water/
1. https://blog.viktomas.com/graph/boiling-litre-of-water/
Price is coming down, but still much higher than standard electric. Standard electric being somewhere between annoying (open coil) and infuriating (glass top) to cook on when compared to even very inexpensive gas ranges.
So most folks moving into a place with "contractor-grade" appliances already installed are going to experience a very functional gas range or a barely usable electric.
Most folks don't replace appliances just for the hell of it.
So most folks moving into a place with "contractor-grade" appliances already installed are going to experience a very functional gas range or a barely usable electric.
Most folks don't replace appliances just for the hell of it.
If you spend over 100$ per hob for a basic induction stove you're being ripped off.
I'm writing from a US perspective; we generally don't buy ranges per-hob (or call them hobs). Stand-alone range + oven is the rule, and that combo runs from a few hundred
(basic gas or electric) to a few thousand dollars. You can get a single counter-top "hot plate", but good luck finding a decent 1500W induction hot plate.
Just import IKEA countertop hobs: 1900W, just change the plug to a 15A 240V NEMA.
Or mount some European-style outlets and leave the plugs. Parts of Germany are even on split-phase.
Induction (not electric coil) stoves are still somewhat rare and generally much more expensive than a gas range (2-4x) in the US.
The cost savings are taking time to percolate through the system, people are still anchored on the higher prices. It is electricity, it’s not like more expensive electricity is any better. Cheap appliances are getting really good. Once people find out they’re getting ripped off they should hopefully let go of their anchored price and look for bargains. It just takes time.
I installed a high CFM hood for my stove, mainly for searing on cast iron and dealing with the smoke, but I wonder if this helps with the NO2 exposure mentioned in the article. A high CFM hood was something I never knew I needed until I had one. It's fantastic.
Maybe. Probably. The article is a bit mixed on range hoods and doesn’t look at high CFM ones specifically, but it stands to reason it would help.
“ We found that an outside-venting range hood reduced peak NO2 concentrations in some cases (Fig. 3B) but that some outside-venting range hoods are ineffective at reducing NO2 concentrations (Fig. 3C). Across a subset of five randomly selected homes, we found that outside-venting hoods reduced hour-averaged kitchen NO2 concentrations by between 10 and 70% (mean reduction in concentration = 35%, n = 5; fig. S15). This result is consistent with prior work assessing the efficacy of installed range hoods, which found that most hoods operating in homes have capture efficiencies well below 70%”
Addresses typical range hoods, not necessarily high CFM quality ones.
“ people with a 75% capture efficiency outside-venting hood who use it every time they cook are exposed to 70% less long-term stove-attributable NO2 than average. The effect on long-term stove-attributable NO2 of opening and closing windows (one window modeled in the kitchen and at least three additional windows, opened or closed all at once; see Materials and Methods) was comparable to the average benefit of using a range hood (Fig. 5).”
Implies higher quality (capture >75%) range hoods help significantly but so does opening a window.
“ We found that an outside-venting range hood reduced peak NO2 concentrations in some cases (Fig. 3B) but that some outside-venting range hoods are ineffective at reducing NO2 concentrations (Fig. 3C). Across a subset of five randomly selected homes, we found that outside-venting hoods reduced hour-averaged kitchen NO2 concentrations by between 10 and 70% (mean reduction in concentration = 35%, n = 5; fig. S15). This result is consistent with prior work assessing the efficacy of installed range hoods, which found that most hoods operating in homes have capture efficiencies well below 70%”
Addresses typical range hoods, not necessarily high CFM quality ones.
“ people with a 75% capture efficiency outside-venting hood who use it every time they cook are exposed to 70% less long-term stove-attributable NO2 than average. The effect on long-term stove-attributable NO2 of opening and closing windows (one window modeled in the kitchen and at least three additional windows, opened or closed all at once; see Materials and Methods) was comparable to the average benefit of using a range hood (Fig. 5).”
Implies higher quality (capture >75%) range hoods help significantly but so does opening a window.
Even the quoted excerpt shows they are effective? But maybe less effective than you might want ideally?
> Implies higher quality (capture >75%) range hoods help significantly but so does opening a window.
Opening four or more windows, which is a lot.
> Implies higher quality (capture >75%) range hoods help significantly but so does opening a window.
Opening four or more windows, which is a lot.
I couldn’t see I’d they reported cfm.
I have a 1200 cfm good and there is no chance anything below has any chance of escaping.
I have a 1200 cfm good and there is no chance anything below has any chance of escaping.
Efficacy is also going to vary with usage. I've got a 900CFM fan, but I can still smoke up the kitchen pretty badly if I sear on the front burner, even with the fan on high. However, if I use the back burner, even with the fan on low, the air stays pretty clear.
Are you sure it's really a 900CFM fan? A lot of cheap fans on amazon claim they are high CFM and when you look at components, are like 400 at best. High CFM fan will run you at least $2k to start.
It's a name-brand fan bought at a local showroom a decade ago. IIRC it was under $1000 at the time.
Yes, it probably helps, especially if you crack a window. The article claims 3000 sq ft dwellings do better than 800 sq ft dwellings -- this will be entirely due to the concentration of the gases. A hood that expels interior air and draws in outside air can't hurt.
My great grandmother used to cook right on the edge of the fireplace, in cast iron Dutch ovens. My grandmother cooked on top of a wood stove, and when I was a kid we heated the house with a wood stove in the center of the house.
I wonder how those all compare.
I wonder how those all compare.
I cook on a wood stove and heat the house with wood. The only time the stove emits anything into the house is when I light it and the chimney is cold - which doesn't happen that often but can happen if I have not used the thing for more than a day or 2. I built that chimney myself, it is solid brick and does not use vermiculite-insulated liners - i.e. it is built according to the 'old' standards where the chimney itself functions as a heat buffer for the top floor (which is why I built it that way). Given a warm chimney there is more than enough drag to keep combustion products from escaping even when I lift the pan off the fire.
It also helps that the stove and its neighbouring electric companion (which I use as a storage area for pans) is built under a large fume hood which ends in a flue pipe in that same chimney. The warmer the chimney, the more drag in the fume hood. There is no fan and none is needed given a warm chimney.
Of course all this only works if there is enough ventilation into the house since both the stove as well as the fume hood need incoming air to work. This is not a problem in our 17th century farm house, even with all the windows closed there is enough air coming in to keep all fires burning. As long as I keep the chimney and the stoves clean - I sweep it once or twice per year depending on the type of wood I burn - they do their job without fouling up the house.
It also helps that the stove and its neighbouring electric companion (which I use as a storage area for pans) is built under a large fume hood which ends in a flue pipe in that same chimney. The warmer the chimney, the more drag in the fume hood. There is no fan and none is needed given a warm chimney.
Of course all this only works if there is enough ventilation into the house since both the stove as well as the fume hood need incoming air to work. This is not a problem in our 17th century farm house, even with all the windows closed there is enough air coming in to keep all fires burning. As long as I keep the chimney and the stoves clean - I sweep it once or twice per year depending on the type of wood I burn - they do their job without fouling up the house.
Wood burning generates a lot more particulates in the air than burning gas. So likely much worse
On the flip side fireplaces uniformly have chimneys (and wood stoves almost always do) in order to get those particulates out of the house. Which doubles as getting the gasses generated out of the house.
I'm not an expert but I'd guess that at least with regards to NO2 that made up for the less clean burning.
I'm not an expert but I'd guess that at least with regards to NO2 that made up for the less clean burning.
If you can smell the smoke, it does not. Wood smoke is incredibly bad for humans. I believe there are some modern wood stoves that seal very well and can prevent combustion products from leaking into the dwelling, but that isn't the case for like 99% of wood fireplaces in the US, at least.
There is 0 smoke smell or anything once I open the flue on my fireplace, can basically see the suction up the chimney.
> Funding: This work was supported by HT LLC grant 1255423-1-UAGYN.
Can someone help me find who is "HT LLC"? Just attempting some cursory due diligence, but I was unsuccessful locating them.
I found one HT, LLC as "Electric Supplies Manufacturers" at BBB, but I want to make sure it is the correct one.
https://www.bbb.org/us/ca/saratoga/profile/electric-supplies...
Can someone help me find who is "HT LLC"? Just attempting some cursory due diligence, but I was unsuccessful locating them.
I found one HT, LLC as "Electric Supplies Manufacturers" at BBB, but I want to make sure it is the correct one.
https://www.bbb.org/us/ca/saratoga/profile/electric-supplies...
There is a strange lack of journalistic curiosity about the funding source behind this study and similar ones that have been making headlines over the last couple of years.
HT LLC is the High Tide Foundation. They're an advocacy group focused on climate change. You might recall a similar study in the headlines a year or so ago. That one focused on gas stoves and benzene, instead of NO2. It was from the same research group and likewise was funded by the High Tide Foundation.
https://www.hightidefoundation.org
HT LLC is the High Tide Foundation. They're an advocacy group focused on climate change. You might recall a similar study in the headlines a year or so ago. That one focused on gas stoves and benzene, instead of NO2. It was from the same research group and likewise was funded by the High Tide Foundation.
https://www.hightidefoundation.org
If people would cook outside a lot of health problems would be remedied. In most of the US for most of the year this simple and cheap to do.
But we put our cooking facilities indoor to cater to our laziness, at the expense of our children’s health. A good propane grill can be acquired for $100 and is much cheaper, much much cheaper in California especially, to fuel. Why we aren’t all cooking outdoors is a testament to our lazy myopic thinking. Sadly the authors miss this point, to the further detriment of public health.
But we put our cooking facilities indoor to cater to our laziness, at the expense of our children’s health. A good propane grill can be acquired for $100 and is much cheaper, much much cheaper in California especially, to fuel. Why we aren’t all cooking outdoors is a testament to our lazy myopic thinking. Sadly the authors miss this point, to the further detriment of public health.