NY governor signs law making the restaurant reservation black market illegal(ny.eater.com)
ny.eater.com
NY governor signs law making the restaurant reservation black market illegal
https://ny.eater.com/2024/12/18/24324546/restaurant-reservation-black-market-illegal-passing-hochul
67 コメント
Are people normally extradited in civil matters? With the penalty being a fine of up to $1000 per violation, plus options for customers to sue individually, wouldn’t it work like any other civil matter?
Get a judgment in NY with or without the defendant choosing to show up, come after their assets, that kind of thing? Even if they’re Canadian, presumably they’re accepting money in dollars somewhere along the line, couldn’t a motivated attorney come after that cash flow?
https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2023/S9365
Get a judgment in NY with or without the defendant choosing to show up, come after their assets, that kind of thing? Even if they’re Canadian, presumably they’re accepting money in dollars somewhere along the line, couldn’t a motivated attorney come after that cash flow?
https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2023/S9365
Is it’s a felony, Rhode Island is required to extradite. I skimmed the article and I’m not sure if this will be a felony though.
Your point stands for international actors.
Your point stands for international actors.
This seems like vastly unnecessary legislation to me. There are far more important issues to worry over, but some politician failed to get a reservation and decided "there aught to be a law".
The "less legislation" mindset is fundamentally flawed in the US. Most people who espouse it do so because good societies ostensibly don't have tons of legislation. But legislation is a symptom, not the problem. If this legislation isn't present in other countries, it's because they don't have this problem.
You’re saying “less legislation” in more words.
When you write something like that, you probably want to add what are "far more important issues to worry over" and why pursuing this legislation would cause delay on that issues. And just in case you're not aware of, "far more important issues to worry over" is usually much harder and more complex to gather consensus across stakeholders and passing this kind of minor legislations doesn't really have any impacts or delay there. This is more of "spare time" stuff.
This is not an actual problem that needs to be solved in the first place. It's a total waste of tax dollars.
You may think in that way, but in order to make a such strong statement you probably want to do your homework first, like searching up the discussions and its rationale. Usually there is a good reason to pass a law if it's almost universally voted for.
It it apparently _is_ an actual problem, which is why an attempt at solving it is being made. A black market for reservations is bad not just for customers, but for the establishment that loses out on business if the reservations aren't actually sold, and therefore nobody shows up.
they should go after ticketmaster and livenation which is a far, far bigger issue except of course they lobby hard while black market reservation folk don’t. they need to unionize or something and then lobby hard too :)
It's not a problem at all. Cook at home or go to another restaurant. These legislators should be put on a strict diet of water and bread for a few years until they learn.
Exactly. How is this so called problem even possible without the restaurants allowing it? If they don't like it, stop allowing it. If they don't care, then why should the public care?
We're capable of caring about more than one thing at a time.
Spoken like someone who doesn't live in NYC
First world problems. People who live in NYC should quit expecting government to solve every minor inconvenience for them and just go eat at another restaurant. Lots of good restaurants in NYC, and many don't even require reservations.
So the NY government shouldn't be trying to solve problems for NY residents? Make it make sense.
A restaurant has a fixed number of reservations possible. How do you suggest allocating them when demand exceeds supply? One way or another, some will not be able to get a reservation.
This seems unrelated. The problem is not lack of supply, which is natural, but rather how the supply is consumed. Similar to scalping.
Both are inevitable consequences of supply and demand. You cannot repeal the law of supply and demand, this new law will be yet another failure.
This is reductive.
There are many things that are beyond supply and demand: love, sex, children. Why should restaurant reservations be any different?
There are many things that are beyond supply and demand: love, sex, children. Why should restaurant reservations be any different?
> There are many things that are beyond supply and demand: love, sex, children.
Those are most definitely connected to supply and demand.
High status men get high status women, and vice versa. What do you think drives the price of a hoe? And how many children one has is often the result of willingness to pay for them.
> Why should restaurant reservations be any different?
And indeed, they aren't.
Those are most definitely connected to supply and demand.
High status men get high status women, and vice versa. What do you think drives the price of a hoe? And how many children one has is often the result of willingness to pay for them.
> Why should restaurant reservations be any different?
And indeed, they aren't.
My mistake for not reading who I was responding to. Forget I said anything.
Sorry, what were you referring to?
You just have a reputation. I cannot engage further. I'm annulling my original response.
> Why should restaurant reservations be any different?
Because they are absolutely constrained by supply. Restaurants have limited space and supplies to cook.
What you are suggesting is prima facie ridiculous. Can you suggest how you could make restaurant supplies unlimited?
Because they are absolutely constrained by supply. Restaurants have limited space and supplies to cook.
What you are suggesting is prima facie ridiculous. Can you suggest how you could make restaurant supplies unlimited?
I'm having trouble understanding where this emotion is coming from. The problem is annoying and unfair, but not the end of the world. Likewise, maybe we'd rather not reach for legislation, but such a small piece of legislation has little negative impact, and is not the end of the world.
Why the insults over this?
Why the insults over this?
Or someone who has no idea how legislation works. The idea that all the "more important issues" take the same amount of time and effort to tackle is invalid; this is an achievable goal and one relatively easy to gather consensus.
The flipside complaint would have been "why are we waiting so long to fix this simple thing." Government can't win.
The flipside complaint would have been "why are we waiting so long to fix this simple thing." Government can't win.
If the offenders don't even live in New York, or even in the US, the goal hasn't been achieved at all. This is a "we passed something to feel good about ourselves" moment.
If you can't afford your dinner reservation maybe you shouldn't live in NYC, right?
We have shady middlemen profiteering off of everything. Why is this a bridge too far?
This is just a highly visible problem. Bots make getting reservations at popular restaurants impossible for normal people. So they aren't necessarily being priced out they're being excluded by not being in the know. Which is frustrating. I'm in the know, thanks to my wife, and we still sometimes need to try for weeks to get a reservation because we refuse to pay on the black market.
Couldn’t restaurants have required an up front non refundable deposit and required the name of the person eating at the time of making the reservation?
Airlines/rental cars/hotels have solved this problem without legislation.
Airlines/rental cars/hotels have solved this problem without legislation.
There are five different airlines, five different rental car companies, and five major hotel chains*. There are a million different restaurants, most of whom handle reservations with infrastructure consisting of a phone, a piece of paper, and a pen.
* yes, you’re right, there are six. You got me.
* yes, you’re right, there are six. You got me.
Non sequitur. It requires no technology to check an ID on a reservation
So what? Demand ID from the booker for people on the guest list to be seated. This is a solved problem and something that restaurateurs can fix in less than one second. No need for any legislation, no need for any digital system.
And ID is demanded online or by phone how exactly?
Yeah, it sounds to me like restaurants really don't mind this black market if it leads to tables getting filled more reliably.
If they wanted to end it, it would be straightforward to make the rez nontransferable.
If they wanted to end it, it would be straightforward to make the rez nontransferable.
The people that show up also probably spend more if they paid for the reservation.
I’m a little curious why the restaurants don’t just charge more. From my simplistic understanding of economics, this sounds like consumers are willing to pay more for it, but restaurants are letting scalpers eat the excess. There must be a reason, they know the market better than me, just curious what it is.
I’m a little curious why the restaurants don’t just charge more. From my simplistic understanding of economics, this sounds like consumers are willing to pay more for it, but restaurants are letting scalpers eat the excess. There must be a reason, they know the market better than me, just curious what it is.
Restaurants want to be as busy as possible as much as time as possible and to sell as high value produce as possible and tip the waiter well. And to come back when they're not booked up.
Scalpers just want to skim a margin off the top at peak time, and don't give a shit whether people think they've overpaid for the experience and end up skipping dessert and ranting about how mediocre it was on social media. Or indeed whether they actually sell all the reservations at all they haven't paid for, especially if the profit maximizing fee is one that leaves it half empty...
Scalpers just want to skim a margin off the top at peak time, and don't give a shit whether people think they've overpaid for the experience and end up skipping dessert and ranting about how mediocre it was on social media. Or indeed whether they actually sell all the reservations at all they haven't paid for, especially if the profit maximizing fee is one that leaves it half empty...
I’m curious about that too. My speculation is they think there aren’t enough people to fill their dining rooms who are willing to pay that much more. They could probably do something like auctioning off a certain number of last minute reservations, but then they risk looking predatory.
They did that. There was press about -particularly guys- showing up for a reservation with a date and having to use a girl's name (hilarity ensued).
(8 points, 2 years ago, no comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33793285
.. can't find a related right now, but you can see how when paying $2000 for a reservation you might do that.
(8 points, 2 years ago, no comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33793285
.. can't find a related right now, but you can see how when paying $2000 for a reservation you might do that.
If they didn’t check government issued photo ID, then they really didn’t follow through.
I’m not going to have my identity verified to eat dinner. Fuck that noise.
I'm happy to have my identity verified to get a reservation at a nice, popular restaurant without having to pay on the black market, and most of the people I know are the same.
Then don't make a reservation. Go to a restaurant where they don't need that.
Life pro tip: if you don't have a reservation then just slip the Applebee's hostess $5 and you can get a table.
Because these middlemen don't lead to record highs for investors
The inverse of your question is "why not do this elsewhere too?"
It was probably hurting tourism.
Nothing shady about it. It's called "arbitrage".
Who are you responding to? Your comment is directly attached to the story post.
"Why fix anything if there are still other things broken"
> The bill does not target legitimate trading platforms like the members-only Dorsia [...]
At least they had fun with the name. (Presumably named after the unobtainable reservation craved by the protagonist in "American Psycho".)
At least they had fun with the name. (Presumably named after the unobtainable reservation craved by the protagonist in "American Psycho".)
What is missed here is that this will create zero additional seats, it just changes the dynamic of how you get one.
There might have been an after-market for these reservations where you could buy one if you want to. But now what? I guess it's just a race to call the restaurant? Or to reload their reservations page over and over again on the day they open them for the day you want? If I want to eat a Fancy Restaurant, but they are normally fully booked - what do I do now?
The folks that resell reservations like this are addressing an actual problem in the market. Perhaps you do not like that they are earning money doing so, but preventing it doesn't fix the problem either.
There might have been an after-market for these reservations where you could buy one if you want to. But now what? I guess it's just a race to call the restaurant? Or to reload their reservations page over and over again on the day they open them for the day you want? If I want to eat a Fancy Restaurant, but they are normally fully booked - what do I do now?
The folks that resell reservations like this are addressing an actual problem in the market. Perhaps you do not like that they are earning money doing so, but preventing it doesn't fix the problem either.
To be a blunt as possible here: Then you don't get to go.
I recognize that the particular demographic that this board attracts probably doesn't like that answer. But among the general public, I'd say it's an extremely popular answer - and "addressing a problem in the market" this way looks like yet another way to make society unfair and biased to the rich, and the average person absolutely hates it. Which is why this law will have broad popular support.
I recognize that the particular demographic that this board attracts probably doesn't like that answer. But among the general public, I'd say it's an extremely popular answer - and "addressing a problem in the market" this way looks like yet another way to make society unfair and biased to the rich, and the average person absolutely hates it. Which is why this law will have broad popular support.
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about fancy restaurants here.
What you do now is go eat at a different restaurant. Lots of good ones out there. I can't understand why any customer would be stupid enough to put up with that much hassle and expense just to eat at one particular popular restaurant.
And if you really like a restaurant enough to eat there all the time and become friendly with the staff then you can always get a reservation.
And if you really like a restaurant enough to eat there all the time and become friendly with the staff then you can always get a reservation.
By taking up reservations that they may not sell, they make the problem worse and obscure what’s going on while costing restaurants business.
By extracting money from customers they people off of fine dining, which makes running restaurants harder.
Not a lot but every 0.1% matters in such a competitive industry.
By extracting money from customers they people off of fine dining, which makes running restaurants harder.
Not a lot but every 0.1% matters in such a competitive industry.
I thought the way people got reservations was to pay the concierge.
One way or another, you're going to have to pay to get a reservation at a hot restaurant.
It's like under communism, where the price of bread was set by the state. The result was shortages. So the real "price" a customer would pay was how long they were willing to wait in line. Customers would then pay other people to stand in line for them.
It's not possible for government to legislate away the price.
One way or another, you're going to have to pay to get a reservation at a hot restaurant.
It's like under communism, where the price of bread was set by the state. The result was shortages. So the real "price" a customer would pay was how long they were willing to wait in line. Customers would then pay other people to stand in line for them.
It's not possible for government to legislate away the price.
Why doesn’t someone create some kind of app that lets people use their own bots to grab reservations?
The government should stay out of the free market. There's nothing wrong with a market for a scarce commodity.
But I wonder why the restaurants themselves don't sell the reservations. They're leaving cash on the table!
But I wonder why the restaurants themselves don't sell the reservations. They're leaving cash on the table!
lol doh aren’t black markets illegal by definition?
Scalping is good and there is no such thing as a distorted price.
From the linked article:
> At Ralph Lauren’s posh Polo Bar, tables have been gulped up by an Ivy League, undergrad math wiz named Alex Eisler. The sophomore at Brown University has made it a business to create phony numbers and emails to snag reservations — and resell them for a healthy profit.
So how is New York going to prosecute people like Eisler? I doubt Rhode Island is going to extradite them. What if someone in Canada does the same thing?