Why is "truth-seeking" a goal?
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> precisely because you can't make head or tails of what they say using the apparatus of thought that you are familiar with.
Just because someone is speaking incoherently does not mean they are transforming our paradigms. Sometimes people are just bonkers.
Just because someone is speaking incoherently does not mean they are transforming our paradigms. Sometimes people are just bonkers.
That is the reason for the predictive capacity test.
Frequently early adopters speak more clearly than their followers becaause they have to.
Look at Einstein’s Relativity or the works of Sigmund Freud who does not at all come across as a ‘Freudian’. As a system ‘Freudianism’ is a bit discredited, I think of Otto Kernberg railing against homosexuality, but Freud himself refused to do conversion therapy because psychoanalysis could only increase the capacity for love, not diminish it. Therapy has moved on (Rogers, Bowlby, Kohut, Beck) but in Freud you often find zingers (his analysis of sadism) that seem valid outside of his system. With Freud (and even more so Marx) people’s objections are often to the content not the style.
When a group becomes hermetic though it can degenerate to people hearing dog whistles and barking, which makes you a dog.
‘Truth’ is a dangerous concept in rhetoric and logic because of how it works with negation. I was told by a science teacher to never say “to tell the truth…” because it presupposes that I lie. A 9/11 truther is a lunatic’s lunatic. Kurt Gödel shows how much trouble you could get into with a function T(x) which determines the logical truth of a logical statement.
Look at Einstein’s Relativity or the works of Sigmund Freud who does not at all come across as a ‘Freudian’. As a system ‘Freudianism’ is a bit discredited, I think of Otto Kernberg railing against homosexuality, but Freud himself refused to do conversion therapy because psychoanalysis could only increase the capacity for love, not diminish it. Therapy has moved on (Rogers, Bowlby, Kohut, Beck) but in Freud you often find zingers (his analysis of sadism) that seem valid outside of his system. With Freud (and even more so Marx) people’s objections are often to the content not the style.
When a group becomes hermetic though it can degenerate to people hearing dog whistles and barking, which makes you a dog.
‘Truth’ is a dangerous concept in rhetoric and logic because of how it works with negation. I was told by a science teacher to never say “to tell the truth…” because it presupposes that I lie. A 9/11 truther is a lunatic’s lunatic. Kurt Gödel shows how much trouble you could get into with a function T(x) which determines the logical truth of a logical statement.
You come at this from and interesting psychology angle, so I can't tell if you agree, disagree, or something in between.
I think Einstein and GR is a perfect example. He simply did what had previously been unthinkable by making time a dynamic variable subject to transformation. He arrived there by fantastical thinking involving riding light beams and what not. I can go on about Maxwell, etc.. The common theme is not truth-seeking but curating fictions for predictive capacity.
Truth does seem dangerous while fiction seems innocuous and extremely useful.
I think Einstein and GR is a perfect example. He simply did what had previously been unthinkable by making time a dynamic variable subject to transformation. He arrived there by fantastical thinking involving riding light beams and what not. I can go on about Maxwell, etc.. The common theme is not truth-seeking but curating fictions for predictive capacity.
Truth does seem dangerous while fiction seems innocuous and extremely useful.
I think your position is a standard postmodern one and we’re definitely post- because modern theories in psychology and the social sciences and whatnot (Freud, Marx) were falsifiable and eventually falsified.
There are still predicates that are determined through observation or inspection of the record (is it raining? Who won Super Bowl XX?) which are key to any kind of fact checking but the the project of an LLM that is an oracle of the truth is a project to build a god.
I’m old enough to have had the experience that there is an “event” and I watched it live on TV and saw it in the evening news again and read about it in The New York Times the next day and then in The Economist next week but then 30 years later there is a really great book that looks at the primary and secondary sources and convinces me the account of it in my mind I got from ‘the first draft of history’ was essentially wrong. Some very good books in the phenomenon in accelerated form were written circa 1970 including Mailer’s Armies of the Night, Thompson’s Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail 1972 [1] and Schell’s Time of Illusion.
It gets me branded a charlatan by some but I say being able to work within contradictory systems is a quality of the mature mind so one hand I am an arch-reductionist who is trained in theoretical physics and builds ‘database animals’ as a software developer. I can’t work an E-Meter but I am great with dowsing rods and ouija boards even though I don’t believe in them and can’t see how there is any channel for information to support ‘ESP’.
[1] Totally stoned he’s the only reporter in the room who actually sees how McGovern got the democratic nomination right in from of them.
There are still predicates that are determined through observation or inspection of the record (is it raining? Who won Super Bowl XX?) which are key to any kind of fact checking but the the project of an LLM that is an oracle of the truth is a project to build a god.
I’m old enough to have had the experience that there is an “event” and I watched it live on TV and saw it in the evening news again and read about it in The New York Times the next day and then in The Economist next week but then 30 years later there is a really great book that looks at the primary and secondary sources and convinces me the account of it in my mind I got from ‘the first draft of history’ was essentially wrong. Some very good books in the phenomenon in accelerated form were written circa 1970 including Mailer’s Armies of the Night, Thompson’s Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail 1972 [1] and Schell’s Time of Illusion.
It gets me branded a charlatan by some but I say being able to work within contradictory systems is a quality of the mature mind so one hand I am an arch-reductionist who is trained in theoretical physics and builds ‘database animals’ as a software developer. I can’t work an E-Meter but I am great with dowsing rods and ouija boards even though I don’t believe in them and can’t see how there is any channel for information to support ‘ESP’.
[1] Totally stoned he’s the only reporter in the room who actually sees how McGovern got the democratic nomination right in from of them.
You're over-thinking it, dark-noodz. Truth is subjective, opinionated, and bears no relation to facts. It is an abstract concept that serves a lot of different emotional purposes - from manipulation by corporate windbags all the way back to how you perceive yourself.
We often conflate "truth" with "comfort" or "validation" because we're human.
When companies want their employees to be "truth seekers", they generally expect employees to act responsibly, honestly, and either willing to go with the flow (truth for the company) or challenge the norms (truth for the individual) - good luck figuring out which one they actually want at any given moment in time.
What is truth? It's what I tell myself to feel better about what I see around me. It changes all the time, reflects and contradicts itself under different circumstances, and rarely matches up with other people's perception of truth.
Truth is what companies and individuals use to justify their actions - not facts, but truths.
It's funny, but you can replace every "truth" above with "lie" and it will remain a truth and a lie.
The only paragraph you wrote that was truthful was the second-to-last one.
We often conflate "truth" with "comfort" or "validation" because we're human.
When companies want their employees to be "truth seekers", they generally expect employees to act responsibly, honestly, and either willing to go with the flow (truth for the company) or challenge the norms (truth for the individual) - good luck figuring out which one they actually want at any given moment in time.
What is truth? It's what I tell myself to feel better about what I see around me. It changes all the time, reflects and contradicts itself under different circumstances, and rarely matches up with other people's perception of truth.
Truth is what companies and individuals use to justify their actions - not facts, but truths.
It's funny, but you can replace every "truth" above with "lie" and it will remain a truth and a lie.
The only paragraph you wrote that was truthful was the second-to-last one.
I am so shocked you have said these things with a straight face, I must condescend a reply…
> Truth is a characteristic of statements within a given logical system.
Absolutely f-ing not any such thing. A fine example of how smarties deceive themselves, lie to themselves, and merrily pose themselves as a danger to all others.
The “Truth” is a purturbation of existential reality. The “truth” is an approximation in a mind which does not contradict or embellish Truth.
If it does not somehow represent an existential phenomena (existing outside of the mind) “it exists only in the void of lies.”
> A logical system consists of an isomorphic mapping of concepts and experiences to symbols, and logical rules about how those symbols can be combined in sequence to form statements. A truth value for a statement then simply answers, "Were the rules of the system followed?".
Do you see here how you play games with yourself? Intellectuals create these abstract halls of mirrors and forget that only existential reality is true Truth and all symbols codes or meanings are only equatable to Truth insofar as they accurately explain or predict that which exists.
> There has never been a significant scientific advancement that did not arise because we broke the categorization or rules of some existing logical system. Therefore, it is ridiculous to suggest that truth-seeking could produce anything other than incremental advance to the limits of the current system, usually incoherence.
I must declare this gibberish.
All scientific progress is measured in representing existential Truths (such as reaction, displacement, and interference of potentials.) there is not other kind.
The search for true existential Truth is the exclusive domain and responsibility of so called Science anything else is a delusion, a fantasy, a myth in the mind.
This statement proves my point “ because we broke the categorization or rules of some existing logical system”
That is called “undeceiving those selves”. New existential evidence broke the old mind fabricated model. That’s it. That is the conclusion of everything you have said. Your mind changes when your old model breaks and must re-explain itself with new “logical words.”
> In order to make significant scientific progress one must question the paradigm itself in a useful way, but that is literally the act of constructing a new hopefully more isomorphic mapping or categorization which gives rise to a new logical system rather than more statements within the current one. In other words, you must create statements that are nonsense in the existing paradigm but have meaning and efficacy in the new one.
You must undeceive one’s self from paradigms and understand Science as the exclusive domain of FINDING TRUE TRUTH. I.e. “truth seeking.”
> The forgoing explains why the proponents of a new paradigm are always viewed as nonsensical by the existing one, they are essentially speaking differing languages that look the same because the same symbols (words) are used with differing meanings.
“It is not that Truth is hard to find, it is that undeceiving the self is difficult.”
> Instead consider truth to be a goal that is local to a given logical system and not an end in itself.
More absurd.
The goal is not logical truth for that is a fallacy. The goal is observing true Truth (existential purturbation) as a human understandable “truth” (consistent, without embellishment.) For no other purpose!
> The real end is logical consistency, not because reality is necessarily logical, but rather because we must be logical in order to understand ourselves and each other.
The crux of human deception (self lies) that the point is how we think, feel, and believe rather than reflecting existential Truths.
> We should be making AI that seeks logical, predictive fiction; that may break our current paradigms. An AI could construct a description of reality involving invisible monkeys that are responsible for my experiences and that would be fine as long as it can tell me the logical properties of the invisible monkeys that would allow me to compute predictions that are then affirmed by experiment. I may jettison the monkeys later because they are only an ontological device, some kind of thinking apparatus.
Destroy such a system as heretical to true Truth. Plenty of fiction explores alternative views without pretending to be a valid comparison with true Truth.
> You can tell the scientist who may be on the verge of a major break though precisely because you can't make head or tails of what they say using the apparatus of thought that you are familiar with.
Absurdist.
Why is “truth-seeking” a goal? To undeceive the self as to true Truths in their fundamental forms.
> Truth is a characteristic of statements within a given logical system.
Absolutely f-ing not any such thing. A fine example of how smarties deceive themselves, lie to themselves, and merrily pose themselves as a danger to all others.
The “Truth” is a purturbation of existential reality. The “truth” is an approximation in a mind which does not contradict or embellish Truth.
If it does not somehow represent an existential phenomena (existing outside of the mind) “it exists only in the void of lies.”
> A logical system consists of an isomorphic mapping of concepts and experiences to symbols, and logical rules about how those symbols can be combined in sequence to form statements. A truth value for a statement then simply answers, "Were the rules of the system followed?".
Do you see here how you play games with yourself? Intellectuals create these abstract halls of mirrors and forget that only existential reality is true Truth and all symbols codes or meanings are only equatable to Truth insofar as they accurately explain or predict that which exists.
> There has never been a significant scientific advancement that did not arise because we broke the categorization or rules of some existing logical system. Therefore, it is ridiculous to suggest that truth-seeking could produce anything other than incremental advance to the limits of the current system, usually incoherence.
I must declare this gibberish.
All scientific progress is measured in representing existential Truths (such as reaction, displacement, and interference of potentials.) there is not other kind.
The search for true existential Truth is the exclusive domain and responsibility of so called Science anything else is a delusion, a fantasy, a myth in the mind.
This statement proves my point “ because we broke the categorization or rules of some existing logical system”
That is called “undeceiving those selves”. New existential evidence broke the old mind fabricated model. That’s it. That is the conclusion of everything you have said. Your mind changes when your old model breaks and must re-explain itself with new “logical words.”
> In order to make significant scientific progress one must question the paradigm itself in a useful way, but that is literally the act of constructing a new hopefully more isomorphic mapping or categorization which gives rise to a new logical system rather than more statements within the current one. In other words, you must create statements that are nonsense in the existing paradigm but have meaning and efficacy in the new one.
You must undeceive one’s self from paradigms and understand Science as the exclusive domain of FINDING TRUE TRUTH. I.e. “truth seeking.”
> The forgoing explains why the proponents of a new paradigm are always viewed as nonsensical by the existing one, they are essentially speaking differing languages that look the same because the same symbols (words) are used with differing meanings.
“It is not that Truth is hard to find, it is that undeceiving the self is difficult.”
> Instead consider truth to be a goal that is local to a given logical system and not an end in itself.
More absurd.
The goal is not logical truth for that is a fallacy. The goal is observing true Truth (existential purturbation) as a human understandable “truth” (consistent, without embellishment.) For no other purpose!
> The real end is logical consistency, not because reality is necessarily logical, but rather because we must be logical in order to understand ourselves and each other.
The crux of human deception (self lies) that the point is how we think, feel, and believe rather than reflecting existential Truths.
> We should be making AI that seeks logical, predictive fiction; that may break our current paradigms. An AI could construct a description of reality involving invisible monkeys that are responsible for my experiences and that would be fine as long as it can tell me the logical properties of the invisible monkeys that would allow me to compute predictions that are then affirmed by experiment. I may jettison the monkeys later because they are only an ontological device, some kind of thinking apparatus.
Destroy such a system as heretical to true Truth. Plenty of fiction explores alternative views without pretending to be a valid comparison with true Truth.
> You can tell the scientist who may be on the verge of a major break though precisely because you can't make head or tails of what they say using the apparatus of thought that you are familiar with.
Absurdist.
Why is “truth-seeking” a goal? To undeceive the self as to true Truths in their fundamental forms.
In your parlance, in order for there to be "no contradiction or embellishment" between your "Truth" and your "truth" there must be an isomorphic mapping between what entities you deem exist and the symbols you use to reason about them. Furthermore, there must be a logical law of noncontradiction upon which you will erect the notion of things, categories, and concepts. We need not fear embellishment, the most successful physical theories involve forms of existence that are unlike anything related to the human experience, and there was never any reason to think they would be otherwise.
I have no idea what repeating the word truth does to prove a point.
I have no idea what repeating the word truth does to prove a point.
> In your parlance, in order for there to be "no contradiction or embellishment" between your "Truth" and your "truth" there must be an isomorphic mapping between what entities you deem exist and the symbols you use to reason about them.
You play a childish game with your token of thoughts.
Now is not the springy knoll to discuss the nature and virtue of all things.
I declare my way “simple truths” and whose goal is to “undeceive the self as to the nature of existential reality.”
It is true there is an ontological chain established these medium for communicative protocol, yet you are pretentious and vacant when pointing this out without utility.
You do not undermine my point by saying “words are symbols and distinctions between the terminal and non-terminal, the signified and the signifier,” and so on.
Pardon your ignorance for your learnings are incomplete; you literally advocating gaslighting ourselves rather than explore existential truths.
Existential reality exists, only that which perturbs existence is existential, period. And only how without contrivance is good science, period. No matter how much you (Man) are intimate with your thoughts and conclusions, those are the symbolic non-truths.
Existential reality is true Truth. The sole and exclusive domain of interest for “science”, anything else is fantasy. Even well respected theoretical stuff, is objectively fantasy. However optimistic a handmaiden to discovery.
> Furthermore, there must be a logical law of noncontradiction upon which you will erect the notion of things, categories, and concepts.
I believe you stumble for “identity” and “attribute”. I still remember Aristotle making this distinction very clear to me while reading his works as a teenager.
As far as “law”, watch yourself. That is how Men lie in the most honest possible way. They confuse Truth (and therefore “truths”) as confined to the horizon of their ignorance. Your “laws” are crib rules to keep your lines straight.
Modern information theory is a lie and will be mocked for generations to come. How the smartest people of the western world could think existential reality was built upon state (“information”) rather than the (obvious) potential distributing as state (potential resolving to state in the moment of now.) Entropy is the existential phenomena of potential distributing over the infinite expanse of negative potential, not a footnote of thermodynamics and a prop for loss in their models. I tell you modern science is as much a cult of delusion as astrology six thousand years ago.
> We need not fear embellishment, the most successful physical theories involve forms of existence that are unlike anything related to the human experience, and there was never any reason to think they would be otherwise.
Enjoy your exotic shit man, it’s good for the mind and spirit. It is not existential Truth, and when you confuse this you become a part of the lie!
> I have no idea what repeating the word truth does to prove a point.
Those are two different words btw, “true” (a presumed validated symbolic reference) and “Truth” (some perturbation [even displacement] of existential reality.)
You play a childish game with your token of thoughts.
Now is not the springy knoll to discuss the nature and virtue of all things.
I declare my way “simple truths” and whose goal is to “undeceive the self as to the nature of existential reality.”
It is true there is an ontological chain established these medium for communicative protocol, yet you are pretentious and vacant when pointing this out without utility.
You do not undermine my point by saying “words are symbols and distinctions between the terminal and non-terminal, the signified and the signifier,” and so on.
Pardon your ignorance for your learnings are incomplete; you literally advocating gaslighting ourselves rather than explore existential truths.
Existential reality exists, only that which perturbs existence is existential, period. And only how without contrivance is good science, period. No matter how much you (Man) are intimate with your thoughts and conclusions, those are the symbolic non-truths.
Existential reality is true Truth. The sole and exclusive domain of interest for “science”, anything else is fantasy. Even well respected theoretical stuff, is objectively fantasy. However optimistic a handmaiden to discovery.
> Furthermore, there must be a logical law of noncontradiction upon which you will erect the notion of things, categories, and concepts.
I believe you stumble for “identity” and “attribute”. I still remember Aristotle making this distinction very clear to me while reading his works as a teenager.
As far as “law”, watch yourself. That is how Men lie in the most honest possible way. They confuse Truth (and therefore “truths”) as confined to the horizon of their ignorance. Your “laws” are crib rules to keep your lines straight.
Modern information theory is a lie and will be mocked for generations to come. How the smartest people of the western world could think existential reality was built upon state (“information”) rather than the (obvious) potential distributing as state (potential resolving to state in the moment of now.) Entropy is the existential phenomena of potential distributing over the infinite expanse of negative potential, not a footnote of thermodynamics and a prop for loss in their models. I tell you modern science is as much a cult of delusion as astrology six thousand years ago.
> We need not fear embellishment, the most successful physical theories involve forms of existence that are unlike anything related to the human experience, and there was never any reason to think they would be otherwise.
Enjoy your exotic shit man, it’s good for the mind and spirit. It is not existential Truth, and when you confuse this you become a part of the lie!
> I have no idea what repeating the word truth does to prove a point.
Those are two different words btw, “true” (a presumed validated symbolic reference) and “Truth” (some perturbation [even displacement] of existential reality.)
I think the difference between you and I is that I am trained to adopt whatever ontology I must in order to understand the subtlety and nuance of various physical theories, without experiencing existential angst or cognitive dissonance. My education did not infect me with epistemology disease.
In case you want to understand the differences further, your "Truth" is to me a figment of your imagination; to be quite clear the existance of an objective physical reality is not a given, the error of insisting the opposite is an enormous failure of imagination, and imagination is more important than intelligence.
In case you want to understand the differences further, your "Truth" is to me a figment of your imagination; to be quite clear the existance of an objective physical reality is not a given, the error of insisting the opposite is an enormous failure of imagination, and imagination is more important than intelligence.
The Zoroastrians (and other ancient cultures) equated fire to the language of God for it is a language of Truth.
Illuminant flame, dispeller of darkness and delusion, ignorance and confusion. Revelation of existential Truths from the void of nothing in mind’s eye.
Say what you say of my Truth to fire. Men, through all their self professed wisdoms may deceive themselves very far. Let fire be a limit to how far you may scoff upon Truths in your haughty intellectual scheme.
Illuminant flame, dispeller of darkness and delusion, ignorance and confusion. Revelation of existential Truths from the void of nothing in mind’s eye.
Say what you say of my Truth to fire. Men, through all their self professed wisdoms may deceive themselves very far. Let fire be a limit to how far you may scoff upon Truths in your haughty intellectual scheme.
You've been taught what to think, not how to think.
The opposite silly man. I have traveled the world, studied the past 10,000 years of humanity through casual self interest. Climbed tiers of modern success (money, profession), taken my ten years to reflect and now share something that even your fellow intellectual has not fully decoded for themselves; and you say this to me.
You’re very sad to let your pride get in the way of your learning. There are more wonders, you will find and process them. This one is a lost leader. Amend your epistemological ladder (potential then state [Truth] then perception and interpretation (“truth” or “truthiness” depending on the quality of the mind) and move on
There is an art and utility to the newly emerging ways of thought. We have all been working upon these same problems (separately and together) for a very long time. You have not cracked this one.
What I say is “truth before Law.” When it comes time to end men’s lives and take away the casual liberties of people among civilization, we must turn to Law. Law must exclusively rely upon true Truth, not thoughts feelings and beliefs, no matter how articulate and systematic.
And pray (to whatever you will) that Law only ever accepts true Truth (existential reality) for wicked clever men have been know to bury even the most honest beneath the words of convincing lies.
“Those who can lie more convincingly the the honest could ever hope to tell the truth.” Such have always existed among us.
The true Truth is an accurate rendering of some aspect of existential reality. Everything else is a fiction or lie.
You’re very sad to let your pride get in the way of your learning. There are more wonders, you will find and process them. This one is a lost leader. Amend your epistemological ladder (potential then state [Truth] then perception and interpretation (“truth” or “truthiness” depending on the quality of the mind) and move on
There is an art and utility to the newly emerging ways of thought. We have all been working upon these same problems (separately and together) for a very long time. You have not cracked this one.
What I say is “truth before Law.” When it comes time to end men’s lives and take away the casual liberties of people among civilization, we must turn to Law. Law must exclusively rely upon true Truth, not thoughts feelings and beliefs, no matter how articulate and systematic.
And pray (to whatever you will) that Law only ever accepts true Truth (existential reality) for wicked clever men have been know to bury even the most honest beneath the words of convincing lies.
“Those who can lie more convincingly the the honest could ever hope to tell the truth.” Such have always existed among us.
The true Truth is an accurate rendering of some aspect of existential reality. Everything else is a fiction or lie.
I insist on only accepting the true true Truth not your paltry double truth, I have the truest truth of all Truth.
Only existential reality is Truth.
There has never been a significant scientific advancement that did not arise because we broke the categorization or rules of some existing logical system. Therefore, it is ridiculous to suggest that truth-seeking could produce anything other than incremental advance to the limits of the current system, usually incoherence. In order to make significant scientific progress one must question the paradigm itself in a useful way, but that is literally the act of constructing a new hopefully more isomorphic mapping or categorization which gives rise to a new logical system rather than more statements within the current one. In other words, you must create statements that are nonsense in the existing paradigm but have meaning and efficacy in the new one.
The forgoing explains why the proponents of a new paradigm are always viewed as nonsensical by the existing one, they are essentially speaking differing languages that look the same because the same symbols (words) are used with differing meanings.
Instead consider truth to be a goal that is local to a given logical system and not an end in itself. The real end is logical consistency, not because reality is necessarily logical, but rather because we must be logical in order to understand ourselves and each other.
We should be making AI that seeks logical, predictive fiction; that may break our current paradigms. An AI could construct a description of reality involving invisible monkeys that are responsible for my experiences and that would be fine as long as it can tell me the logical properties of the invisible monkeys that would allow me to compute predictions that are then affirmed by experiment. I may jettison the monkeys later because they are only an ontological device, some kind of thinking apparatus.
The output from AI is an average over various logical systems that are incommensurate, at best based on distances computed in an abstract incoherent mixture of thought manifolds, but distances between thoughts in different manifolds are meaningless. You can't make a number of such AI agents confer because they are unknowingly in technocratic silos.
Trying to make AGI from human exhaust is metaphorically like reconstructing dozens of jet airliners to be better than they were before they collided in flight, using only the mixture of wreckage occurring after the crash on the ground.
You can tell the scientist who may be on the verge of a major break though precisely because you can't make head or tails of what they say using the apparatus of thought that you are familiar with.