How cork is made(wineanorak.com)
wineanorak.com
How cork is made
http://www.wineanorak.com/corks/howcorkismade.htm
121 コメント
I quite agree. I have some friends in Portugal who have some cork oaks on their farm. They have a page about cork: http://www.pegoferreiro.com/Cork.html
Not sure where he says that owners of the trees make lots of money? He states that top quality corks can be worth a Euro, but he doesn't mention the amount of money the cork growers make.
Your parent wrote "someone here has said in another comment". He meant the comment by arturventura downthread.
Cork is quite a superb material and can be used as the middle sandwich layer with carbon fiber. It's also used in space launchers as heat and noise insulator inside nose fairings. It also has ablative properties and resists flame propagation. It's lighter than most other woods, though not as light as Balsa.
So I think it's a bit of a shame that it's used for wine bottle corks and usually thrown away after use!
So I think it's a bit of a shame that it's used for wine bottle corks and usually thrown away after use!
To be fair, as they say it grows back in a few years and harvest doesn't kill the tree, so it's not as though they're significantly 'wasting' it. I'm sure that space programs can get all the cork they desire and more.
The cork supply is not elastic. It takes at least 20 years for a tree to mature so it can be harvested, so if the market demand is doubled tomorrow, it will take 20 years for the supply to reach demand. This increases the prices and makes recycling viable.
Or wine bottlers can switch to synthetic cork (a synthetic bottle stopper) leaving natural cork to where it's needed most.
Synthetic cork has been shown not to be as 'good' as the natural type for certain cases. For one reason or another it either lets too much Oxygen through causing the wine oxidize too fast, or not enough causing wines to age slowly.
Wines that are meant to drink while young do great with a screw cap. Anything that I'd want to put in a cellar and age I'd want to have a natural cork.
Wines that are meant to drink while young do great with a screw cap. Anything that I'd want to put in a cellar and age I'd want to have a natural cork.
I don't think its really been shown at all - this answer on Quora seems pretty balanced: http://www.quora.com/Wine/Do-wines-with-screw-caps-age-as-we...
The effects of micro-oxidization are definitely not the only change in taste that happen to an aging wine.
The effects of micro-oxidization are definitely not the only change in taste that happen to an aging wine.
It's a pretty major part though. The study that I remember reading was done in Australia with white wines that had been aged for 5 years with different closures(though in the same environment). The sensory results did indicate that the choice of closure did have a pretty significant impact in the way that the wine aged. Synthetics had more oxidized notes, Screw cap wines tended to be reduced and have varietal characteristics consistent with younger wines, while cork aged as expected.
"Better" is a subjective term, and most people would actually prefer the fruitiness of a youthful wine. Heck, I know I do most of the time :) But there's something that develops with certain wines over time that I'm not just convinced that you can get with screw caps.
"Better" is a subjective term, and most people would actually prefer the fruitiness of a youthful wine. Heck, I know I do most of the time :) But there's something that develops with certain wines over time that I'm not just convinced that you can get with screw caps.
True
Maybe it's even part of some wine/wood interaction
Screw caps may be ok but they certainly look cheap.
I'm not convinced low-end corks are better than synthetic cork (in the case of some aging), and maybe the technology improves, leaving the solid corks to the expensive wines.
Supermarkets in France sell corks, I remember seeing them split by aging time, from 1,2 years up to around 20 years
Maybe it's even part of some wine/wood interaction
Screw caps may be ok but they certainly look cheap.
I'm not convinced low-end corks are better than synthetic cork (in the case of some aging), and maybe the technology improves, leaving the solid corks to the expensive wines.
Supermarkets in France sell corks, I remember seeing them split by aging time, from 1,2 years up to around 20 years
[deleted]
Or screw tops. A few years back a bunch of major winemakers in Australia said "screw it, we're not using corks anymore!" (pun intended)
People told them they were crazy, that the market thought screw tops were for cheap junk wine only, but they did it. And it worked. Now only bottles going to export markets use corks.
You lose the ritual of uncorking a bottle, but it's a lot more practical to open and there is no danger of the wine being corked.
People told them they were crazy, that the market thought screw tops were for cheap junk wine only, but they did it. And it worked. Now only bottles going to export markets use corks.
You lose the ritual of uncorking a bottle, but it's a lot more practical to open and there is no danger of the wine being corked.
This isn't strictly true. You can get "corked" wines under screw-cap or synthetic closures but it is a lot rarer. TCA can find its way just about anywhere.
The video linked in the article claims they can harvest a tree every 9 years.
I was saying that if you want to start a cork supply business (grow cork trees because you see an increased demand), you'll have to wait for at least 25 years to make any cork at all, and probably 35 years to make any revenue.
A tree reaches maturity after ~25 years after planting, and the first harvest is usually low quality, so it doesn't bring money. After the first harvest it can be harvested every 9-10 years, and you can do so for hundred of years (a healthy cork oak can live for 5-600 years).
Cork does grow on trees, but slowly :).
A tree reaches maturity after ~25 years after planting, and the first harvest is usually low quality, so it doesn't bring money. After the first harvest it can be harvested every 9-10 years, and you can do so for hundred of years (a healthy cork oak can live for 5-600 years).
Cork does grow on trees, but slowly :).
Yes. But like miahi is saying:
"It takes at least 20 years for a tree to mature so it can be harvested"
If cork demand doubles tomorrow it means you will have to plant new trees and it will take at least 20 years before those trees are mature enough to be harvested.
"It takes at least 20 years for a tree to mature so it can be harvested"
If cork demand doubles tomorrow it means you will have to plant new trees and it will take at least 20 years before those trees are mature enough to be harvested.
miahi's point was about new trees reaching the point that they could enter the 9 year harvesting cycle.
> can be used as the middle sandwich layer with carbon fiber.
I've learned a lot about FRP construction and I've never heard of cork used as a core matarial. Are you sure you're not thinking of Balsa?
Balsa is a hardwood despite being so light, so it has capillaries in it. The wood is cut into blocks and then the end-grain is pressed into the wetted-out FRP mat. The resin in the mat is drawn into the balsa through capillary action forming a very secure bond.
Manufactured foam core material doesn't have capillaries and therefore has trouble forming a bond with the resin. If you're using foam instead of balsa core, the manufacturer will specify a bonding agent that you need to use between the mat and the core.
If cork were to be used as a core, I'd think it'd have the same problem bonding with the resin as foam has, and you'd have to use a special bonding agent formulated for the cork.
EDIT: Heh, after posting I decided to google around for cork FRP core. It turns out there is a company selling a core material manufactured from cork: http://www.mcmc-uk.com/products-corecork.html; most of the users of it I can find are surfboard builders though. Here's a not-very-long thread about it on boatdesign.net: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materials/corecork-material...
I've learned a lot about FRP construction and I've never heard of cork used as a core matarial. Are you sure you're not thinking of Balsa?
Balsa is a hardwood despite being so light, so it has capillaries in it. The wood is cut into blocks and then the end-grain is pressed into the wetted-out FRP mat. The resin in the mat is drawn into the balsa through capillary action forming a very secure bond.
Manufactured foam core material doesn't have capillaries and therefore has trouble forming a bond with the resin. If you're using foam instead of balsa core, the manufacturer will specify a bonding agent that you need to use between the mat and the core.
If cork were to be used as a core, I'd think it'd have the same problem bonding with the resin as foam has, and you'd have to use a special bonding agent formulated for the cork.
EDIT: Heh, after posting I decided to google around for cork FRP core. It turns out there is a company selling a core material manufactured from cork: http://www.mcmc-uk.com/products-corecork.html; most of the users of it I can find are surfboard builders though. Here's a not-very-long thread about it on boatdesign.net: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materials/corecork-material...
Because cork is getting more expensive, there are spotty recycling efforts. My impression is that it's still fairly limited.
I suspect any recycling efforts will be eclipsed by the move to screw tops.
Recycling cork seems crazy. Why not just compost it?
I come to hacker news for the tech and programming articles, but this is just too interesting! :)
Thank you for sharing!
Thank you for sharing!
A lot of readers seem to think HN is only for tech. It isn't:
> Stories on HN don't have to be about hacking, because good hackers aren't only interested in hacking, but they do have to be deeply interesting.
http://ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
> Stories on HN don't have to be about hacking, because good hackers aren't only interested in hacking, but they do have to be deeply interesting.
http://ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
Punching out those corks looks extremely satisfying.
Yes, agreed. Very interesting and thanks for sharing. Will be reminded of this the next time I open a bottle of wine and carelessly toss the cork aside.
I just come for the tech. I expected cork to be a new js framework.
I know it's a community decision, but there's communities for this already.
I know it's a community decision, but there's communities for this already.
I am a bit sad seeing you downloaded so harshly just for stating your opinion.
For me a big part of the hacker mindset is wanting to understand how anything(!) works. How the things we use every day function in the deepest sense, how they are created, why they exist. This post explains everything about Cork in great detail and I loved learning all that. I hope that HN will always value posts like this highly.
For me a big part of the hacker mindset is wanting to understand how anything(!) works. How the things we use every day function in the deepest sense, how they are created, why they exist. This post explains everything about Cork in great detail and I loved learning all that. I hope that HN will always value posts like this highly.
Truthfully I thoroughly enjoyed it. I don't really disagree with you, and I truly believe "how it's made" (much in the same style) is the best show on TV.
I just come from an "on-topic" background, I guess.
I just come from an "on-topic" background, I guess.
You have a very narrow view of tech. As a material, cork is pretty technical.
Unknown also to most of you Cork is such a lucrative buisness that cork removing is one of the most lucrative jobs you can find in rural areas. During the harvesting seasion, many removers can make money for the entire year in a month or two. however the job is excruciating because of dust and weight. Trees owners also make lots of money.
Although off topic I have to share this. I actually came from coruche, that is a small village in the middle of Portugal and is so cool to find an article in hacker news about it! :D
> The planks are boiled to soften them, and also to clean them.
Ah, so it's true about the cork soakers.
Ah, so it's true about the cork soakers.
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/03/03qcork.phtml
For the uninformed.
For the uninformed.
Older (by nearly 20 years) version of the same gag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei2WhctlRHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei2WhctlRHY
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/cork-soakers/28...
Incase you don't want to read the script.
Incase you don't want to read the script.
Screw tops are better. Tighter, less oxygen, easier to deal with, and they don't ever rot. If you ever get a glass of wine that smells intensely rotten it could be because the cork has started rotting.
Cork allows some contact of the wine with oxygen, allowing it to evolve over the years.
For wines that lose their primary characteristic when aged (think fruity, fresh wines, normally whites) a screw top is the way to go, for something you want to keep in your cellar and let it evolve a bit till is just right, I'll take cork every day.
As a sidenote, cork was one of the main components of the Space Shuttle's insulation (http://www.nytimes.com/1981/11/03/science/shuttle-s-cork-fro...) [and yes, I'm from Portugal, you can all blame us for the Columbia...]
For wines that lose their primary characteristic when aged (think fruity, fresh wines, normally whites) a screw top is the way to go, for something you want to keep in your cellar and let it evolve a bit till is just right, I'll take cork every day.
As a sidenote, cork was one of the main components of the Space Shuttle's insulation (http://www.nytimes.com/1981/11/03/science/shuttle-s-cork-fro...) [and yes, I'm from Portugal, you can all blame us for the Columbia...]
Screw tops also allow oxygen to flow through, in fact, it can even be 'controlled'[1].
This way the caps on some younger wines allow more oxygen to flow through than the older 'lay-down' ones etc.
Overall, a screw-cap is a way better option, one of the biggest wine vendors in France (Chateau Bonnet from the famous André Lurton) switched to caps some years ago after extensive research and also prefers them above traditional cork for all wines. Furthermore see [2], they list the following advantages:
- No cork taint
- No more sporadic oxidation
- Screwcaps avoid flavour modification, including scalping
- Both red and white wines can age under screwcap
- A reliable long-term seal
- Cellaring
- Recycling
[1] http://www.mutineermagazine.com/blog/2008/05/screw-this-cap-...
[2] http://www.screwcapinitiative.com/normal.asp?navID=24&pa...
Overall, a screw-cap is a way better option, one of the biggest wine vendors in France (Chateau Bonnet from the famous André Lurton) switched to caps some years ago after extensive research and also prefers them above traditional cork for all wines. Furthermore see [2], they list the following advantages:
- No cork taint
- No more sporadic oxidation
- Screwcaps avoid flavour modification, including scalping
- Both red and white wines can age under screwcap
- A reliable long-term seal
- Cellaring
- Recycling
[1] http://www.mutineermagazine.com/blog/2008/05/screw-this-cap-...
[2] http://www.screwcapinitiative.com/normal.asp?navID=24&pa...
"No cork taint"
Theoretically cork taint is mostly avoidable as long as the wines aren't stored in buildings made from wood or that have wood floors, and as long as there isn't air conditioning. The reason for cork taint is that the chlorine that's used in cleaning products and that comes out of air conditioners (running on chlorinated city water) builds up in wood over time, and then reacts with the mold in cork to form TCA. The other problem is that the vast majority of cork is stored on the ground and is just left to get moldy with zero quality standards, despite what this article would have you believe. Cork taint should be essentially non-existant up until the time of purchase, it's just that the industry has been completely unable to get its act together.
Theoretically cork taint is mostly avoidable as long as the wines aren't stored in buildings made from wood or that have wood floors, and as long as there isn't air conditioning. The reason for cork taint is that the chlorine that's used in cleaning products and that comes out of air conditioners (running on chlorinated city water) builds up in wood over time, and then reacts with the mold in cork to form TCA. The other problem is that the vast majority of cork is stored on the ground and is just left to get moldy with zero quality standards, despite what this article would have you believe. Cork taint should be essentially non-existant up until the time of purchase, it's just that the industry has been completely unable to get its act together.
I'm confused by your comment about chlorine from ACs. What sort of AC system uses tap water? Obviously not forced air, but I've only been in water cooled buildings that use nearby lake or river water, presumably because using treated water would be wasteful. Is this common somewhere?
Very curious - thanks for the insight, esp on the cleaning products!
Very curious - thanks for the insight, esp on the cleaning products!
Hmm I'm not sure about the air conditioning off the top of my head. George Taber has a book called To Cork or Not To Cork, and I know he discusses the different sources of chlorine in there. It's possible that some commercial air conditioning systems have built in humidifiers, but I'm not positive.
Swamp/Evaporative coolers are popular in western US. We had one in Colorado and worked extremely well and was cheap to operate. Not very good wine country though.
Everything that you say is true. But I really like the ceremony of using a corkscrew to open a bottle of wine; it is a lot more tactile than opening a screw cap.
That is why http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_wine_closure was invented. Apparently, this isn't common in the US, but it is in Western Europe.
It's fairly common. You see it with some of the table wines and it's something the California wineries would love to bring to the higher-end stuff, but they're still in the process of "educating" the public as to its advantages. Waiting for it to become acceptable, basically.
And lots of wine is table wine which will not stored to evolve through the years, but drunken fairly quickly. I don't see why you wouldn't use screwtops for these wines.
It wasn't your fault -- it was rapid expansion/contraction of the external fuel tank during the filling process that caused the insulation to crack.
Is there any reason the wine industry seems to stick to cork then, other than just being an old fashioned industry?
Sometimes you want the wine to be exposed to oxygen as it does; it changes the flavor of the wine, sometimes for the better. This is similar to decanting a wine; exposure to air changes it chemically.
Wine is often a social experience - so there is something too be said for the "fun" and flash of popping open a cork.
Wine is often a social experience - so there is something too be said for the "fun" and flash of popping open a cork.
There's also significant market momentum to overcome as screw tops are often associated with cheap wine at the (typical) consumer level.
Yes, but this perception is rapidly changing, especially since there are plastic corks available (not screw tops). In Europe quality wines now often come with plastic corks.
The wine industry would be very, very happy to switch over to polymer corks or caps. They stick with cork because it's what the majority of buyers wants.
I find there is a ritual in bringing out the cork screw and opening the bottle. Think about how a waiter presents it in a restaurant. There's no anticipation or show in having them come out, showing you the bottle, then twisting the cap off.
In a similar note, we have a "rabbit" corkscrew. It's super efficient at opening a bottle, but is not particularly satisfying. Have you ever asked yourself, If only I could open this bottle faster? (Although it can be convenient if you're cooking with wine.)
In a similar note, we have a "rabbit" corkscrew. It's super efficient at opening a bottle, but is not particularly satisfying. Have you ever asked yourself, If only I could open this bottle faster? (Although it can be convenient if you're cooking with wine.)
There is a kind without the... screw, the spiral thing I mean. It's pointy and just slightly curved in S. I've been unable to find an image for it in five minutes.
I bet that, once you get used to it (after spoling a few hundreds of corks, that's it) it's faster than the "rabbit" model.
I say that because I used to be faster with the simple, T-shaped screw, and I've seen it used in restaurants by experienced waiters.
I bet that, once you get used to it (after spoling a few hundreds of corks, that's it) it's faster than the "rabbit" model.
I say that because I used to be faster with the simple, T-shaped screw, and I've seen it used in restaurants by experienced waiters.
You forgot the part about the cork, which is presented to the purchaser for inspection (a quick sniff) to make sure the wine hasn't gone bad.
Yes, better wine preservation.
Australia and NZ wineries use screw tops almost exclusively even for high-end wines. In the US market buyers still believe that cork is better though so the wineries must accommodate that.
I don't know what your definition of high-end wine is, but I've never seen a screw top on anything I've drunk over $50.
I've seen it on several wines over $50 from New Zeeland and I've heard that most Australian wines in Australia now come with screw corks even at the higher end (natural cork is only used for exported wines). They seem to be leading the charge on that front. I've also seen it on a couple of French whites. But as others have mentioned, most vineyards are reluctant to do so (especially on wine for export), not because of any quality concerns, but because many people think screw caps make wines look cheap.
This is correct - it's very rare to find a corked bottle in Australia, even over the $50 price point
It's not rot or breakdown of the cork that causes that odor and flavor. It's a result of the metabolic processes of a fungus. I've always wondered if they could fix that by irradiating the things...
Bonny Doon Vineyard makes a good case for screwcaps.
https://www.bonnydoonvineyard.com/screwcaps/
https://www.bonnydoonvineyard.com/screwcaps/
Easier to open too!
It's also surprisingly difficult to harvest the cork bark from trees:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztr-RP0XYd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztr-RP0XYd8
Wonderful video, thanks. The hollow sound of the axe hitting the bark and the breaking are fantastic. I have no idea why, but I love them.
Another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqF3SGFigdY
I absolutely love this one (especially around 3:30 onward) due to how tremendously satisfying the sounds and visuals are.
I absolutely love this one (especially around 3:30 onward) due to how tremendously satisfying the sounds and visuals are.
You might be interested in this, then.
http://www.reddit.com/r/frisson
http://www.reddit.com/r/frisson
These corks will be really expensive: over a Euro each.
I'm surprised that with top-quality corks being so valuable, there isn't an incentive to recycle the material. I also wonder if there is a collector's market for vintage corks.
I'm surprised that with top-quality corks being so valuable, there isn't an incentive to recycle the material. I also wonder if there is a collector's market for vintage corks.
My impression from the article is that you'd have to grind them up and use them for the 2nd-tier corks at best. The cleaning involved may make the savings unimpressive, and there is the problem of getting the consumer to get the corks back to you. You could probably counter this by focusing on restaurants though.
There's a cork recycling bin at the Green Life (owned by Whole Foods) in my hometown. They don't mention what they use it for, as far as I can tell, but I'd guess they sell it somewhere.
All Whole Foods markets have cork recycling run by Cork ReHarvest in North America and someone else in the UK: http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/blog/whole-story/cork-reharv...
A few things to know:
* The cork bark grows back every five to seven years.
* The initial bark strippings aren't of a high-enough
quality for bottles. IIRC, it takes four or five harvests
to get to that point.I've driven around the Los Alcornocales Natural Park in Spain, it's one of the largest cork forests in the world. The road on the edge winds a lot and I had to stop along the way from feeling queasy from all the bends which is unusual for me. I've also driven around Southern Portugal and from time to time would see a couple of trees with bark looking like a harvested cork tree. It must be fairly intensive to use these. I've noticed most Spanish and Portuguese wine bottles have real cork, I suspect most wineries have a specific supply of cork in the area.
I thought that the growing amount of twist-off's was due to cork tree going extinct, but it appears that the production of corks doesn't harm the tree. Any thoughts?
I thought I heard about there being a cork shortage as well, after googling around it seems that this may be an urban myth. Even Cork conservation sites say there is no cork shortage [1]. Looks like twist-offs/plastic corks etc. may just be around because they are cheaper than natural corks at current market prices. Would be interesting to see how the production and demand for plastic vs. natural corks swings with the price of petroleum or other chemicals necessary for plastics production.
[1] http://www.corkforest.org/faq_cork_facts.php
[1] http://www.corkforest.org/faq_cork_facts.php
Back when I waited tables, whenever a customer would doubt the quality of wine because it's a twist-off, we were supposed to tell them that it's a "green thing", and a lot of good wineries are getting away from the cork for environmental reasons. Well, looks like it's just cutting costs with some clever marketing.
Cork also has the problem that it can occasionally spoil the wine. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_taint) My understanding is that twist-off caps are strictly better for wine, but the inertia of tradition has kept most wines sealed with cork. (It doesn't help that cheaper wines were the first to switch and so twist-off caps became associated with cheap wine.)
I believe that wine production has expanded worldwide, so the overall demand for cork much higher now, while the supply hasn't grown much at all.
No. Removing cork only removes the outer layer of the tree and doesn't harm the tree. 9 years the cork is removed (and it must be removed or the cork goes bad) and a new one grows uup.
I had heard that there was a combination of a blight on cork trees and a huge increase in demand of wine corks but I don't have any good sources. Anybody else know more?
Related documentary on how corks actually get inserted into wine bottles:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/19187
http://www.hulu.com/watch/19187
Amazing stuff! I've always wondered how corks are made.
Not just corks...but cork flooring, etc. as well (which is amazing stuff to put in your kitchen...warm, acoustically insulating, soft and bouncy). Lovely stuff that.
Stains quite easily, though.
we used to have a cork wall in my kitchen when i was a kid. very easy to post stuff on the wall with tacks and such. didn't think about the sound insulation side of things, it was just a gigantic cork wall to play with!
Do a search on google images for "cork products" the range is quite amazing. The umbrella is my favourite - waterproof and fireproof.
Don't forget cork handbags and shoe soles, I've seen them in quite a few fashion collections this year : (http://www.corkdesign.com.pt/corkdesign.php)
I was doing some travelling back in 2002 or so, and spent several weeks in Naples. I was shocked at how inexpensive wine was, at around 2 euro per bottle (at the time, the euro and the dollar were very close). Then I learned that the cork cost about 1 euro to produce (supported by this article), which I found even more shocking.
Why don't more old world wineries go to the twist top?
Why don't more old world wineries go to the twist top?
1 euro may be the selling price of a top cork stopper. The majority of them cost less than that, they could reach prices as low as 2 or 3 cents! (but these are the real bad ones :-) ). i'd say you could buy medium quality cork stoppers for 20-30 cents each. Note, we're not talking of cost values but the final market prices.
Really cool article - always loved that show "How It's Made" but I don't think they covered this....
Sometimes I think of, how in the world, somebody come up with the idea of harvesting bark of trees to cork them wine bottles.
I guess we are more or less poisoned day by day seeing yet another location-based-social-video-sharing-mobile-analytics -app.
I guess we are more or less poisoned day by day seeing yet another location-based-social-video-sharing-mobile-analytics -app.
Does anyone else find it depressing that humans are still used for these jobs?
The workers in the article seem quite happy, unlike the fox conn workers who created (most probably) your smartphone.
Of course they seem to be quite happy. This entire article was basically an infomercial by the wine industry. Do you really expect them to post any photos of obviously miserable workers?
I think the workers presented are rather candid, most you cannot even see their expression, so there is no faked "infomercial" quality to this. I am also aware that in any industry there will be people that are not happy for many valid reasons.
I would not use the adjective "depressing" to qualify human labour that respects the environment it is set in, helps populations keep living in interior mediterranean areas, and to speak about the product; help make something that has a wide field of application. In fact these zones benefit from a lot of quality rural turism because of the loop feed that comes out of grape, cork, rural area setting with life quality parameters that are disappearing all around the world. These are strong people that shouldn't be paternalized for their strong value system that preserves habitat and social condition in a strong group pattern. But that is just my opinion based on the contact I have with this sort of cultural setting. All of these things make this specialized manual labour part of a culture that warrants preservation, not arbitrary value imposition.
I would not use the adjective "depressing" to qualify human labour that respects the environment it is set in, helps populations keep living in interior mediterranean areas, and to speak about the product; help make something that has a wide field of application. In fact these zones benefit from a lot of quality rural turism because of the loop feed that comes out of grape, cork, rural area setting with life quality parameters that are disappearing all around the world. These are strong people that shouldn't be paternalized for their strong value system that preserves habitat and social condition in a strong group pattern. But that is just my opinion based on the contact I have with this sort of cultural setting. All of these things make this specialized manual labour part of a culture that warrants preservation, not arbitrary value imposition.
I freely admit I'm making a value judgment here. But I am not imposing my values on anyone. I'm just noting that I find the thought of anyone spending their whole life sorting or boiling corks depressing.
I'm willing to go out on a limb to imagine they could have more interesting and more fulfilling jobs than that, and even that those jobs need not be environmentally destructive -- they might be environmentally beneficial, even. Is this such a stretch? Would that be so wrong?
Is it inconceivable that some of these people might not actually enjoy spending all their work hours sorting or boiling cork? Just because they and perhaps their ancestors have been doing this for a long time, does that mean that they enjoy it or would not rather be doing something else with their time?
Speaking of imposing values, perhaps these workers should actually be asked about what they want to do and whether they want their lives and their children's lives to be dedicated to sorting cork.
I'm willing to go out on a limb to imagine they could have more interesting and more fulfilling jobs than that, and even that those jobs need not be environmentally destructive -- they might be environmentally beneficial, even. Is this such a stretch? Would that be so wrong?
Is it inconceivable that some of these people might not actually enjoy spending all their work hours sorting or boiling cork? Just because they and perhaps their ancestors have been doing this for a long time, does that mean that they enjoy it or would not rather be doing something else with their time?
Speaking of imposing values, perhaps these workers should actually be asked about what they want to do and whether they want their lives and their children's lives to be dedicated to sorting cork.
It is incredibly obvious you have never worked this sort of job before.
Prior to getting into university I worked fulltime at a green-bean processing plant. Green-beans come in on a truck, straight from a harvester, and leave on another truck cut and washed. Exposed to the elements (roof, but no walls) in deafening noise, standing in front of a conveyor belt for hours staring at green beans trying to grab all the dead field animals, sticks, and stems before they went into the cutting machine. The beans were soaking wet so my hands were constantly freezing. On good days they threw me a rake and told me to climb into the back of a tractor trailer. After a while that gave me RSI.
It was I suspect worse than cork sorting or soaking. Certainly comparable.
Did I enjoy this job? Hell no. Would I rather have been doing something else? No shit. Would I, even in retrospect, want myself forced out of that job at that time? Fuck no. Would I ever think of going back there and suggesting that all those other workers be replaced to improve their lives? You have got to be fucking kidding me.
Prior to getting into university I worked fulltime at a green-bean processing plant. Green-beans come in on a truck, straight from a harvester, and leave on another truck cut and washed. Exposed to the elements (roof, but no walls) in deafening noise, standing in front of a conveyor belt for hours staring at green beans trying to grab all the dead field animals, sticks, and stems before they went into the cutting machine. The beans were soaking wet so my hands were constantly freezing. On good days they threw me a rake and told me to climb into the back of a tractor trailer. After a while that gave me RSI.
It was I suspect worse than cork sorting or soaking. Certainly comparable.
Did I enjoy this job? Hell no. Would I rather have been doing something else? No shit. Would I, even in retrospect, want myself forced out of that job at that time? Fuck no. Would I ever think of going back there and suggesting that all those other workers be replaced to improve their lives? You have got to be fucking kidding me.
You seem to be suffering from some sort of tunnel vision that lets you see only two options here: the miserable status quo or everyone getting fired.
I am not advocating firing anyone. If someone enjoys sorting cork, or if they are just too afraid to make a transition to more interesting and fulfilling work, I'd have no problem with them staying on.
What I do advocate is actually asking these people if they want to stay on or be trained to do more interesting and fulfilling work. For those who do choose to do something else, I think it would be a good thing to make this option available to them, especially when the same job could be done by machines.
I am not advocating firing anyone. If someone enjoys sorting cork, or if they are just too afraid to make a transition to more interesting and fulfilling work, I'd have no problem with them staying on.
What I do advocate is actually asking these people if they want to stay on or be trained to do more interesting and fulfilling work. For those who do choose to do something else, I think it would be a good thing to make this option available to them, especially when the same job could be done by machines.
"If someone enjoys sorting cork, or if they are just too afraid to make a transition to more interesting and fulfilling work"
That you think life is so simple really highlights your privilege.
That you think life is so simple really highlights your privilege.
You are right. These people would probably be much happier if robots took their jobs.
And you'd probably be much happier sorting corks 16 hours a day, 365 days a year.
Do you honestly believe you are making a rational point here?
There are plenty of reasons to replace workers with robots, but "making those workers happier" is not one of them...
"Hey Martha, we've noticed that you don't seem to find your job to be very enjoyable. Well good news, we've fired you!"
....
There are plenty of reasons to replace workers with robots, but "making those workers happier" is not one of them...
"Hey Martha, we've noticed that you don't seem to find your job to be very enjoyable. Well good news, we've fired you!"
....
How about instead, "Martha, you no longer have to work at a mind-numbingly boring (and probably unhealthy if not demeaning) job -- we've got robots for that. Instead, we're training you to do more interesting and more fulfilling work. While we're at it, we're also giving you a voice in the decision making process and part ownership of the company. You, along with your fellow workers can now decide how to run the company for your own benefit and that of society at large."
You are living in a fantasy world.
Not very long ago, it used to be inconceivable in America that blacks and whites would one day sit together at the same restaurant, drink from the same water fountain, use the same bathrooms, compete for the same jobs, go to the same schools, and even intermarry.
Segragation was just a reality and anyone who suggested that there could be a better way was "living in a fantasy world."
Much the same was said about those who advocated for the downfall of Apartheid in South Africa. Most foreign policy experts were blindsighted by the swift and mostly bloodless downfall of the Soviet Union in the early 90s.
I could go on giving example after example from history, where what was once the status quo (and was even seen as the natural order of things) was radically changed in a relatively brief period to a state hardly imagined as possible by people living just decades earlier. Not only are such events plentiful in history, the rate at which such events are happening seems to be only increasing.
The only thing certain about the future is that it's full of surprises. And the world is what we make it.
Segragation was just a reality and anyone who suggested that there could be a better way was "living in a fantasy world."
Much the same was said about those who advocated for the downfall of Apartheid in South Africa. Most foreign policy experts were blindsighted by the swift and mostly bloodless downfall of the Soviet Union in the early 90s.
I could go on giving example after example from history, where what was once the status quo (and was even seen as the natural order of things) was radically changed in a relatively brief period to a state hardly imagined as possible by people living just decades earlier. Not only are such events plentiful in history, the rate at which such events are happening seems to be only increasing.
The only thing certain about the future is that it's full of surprises. And the world is what we make it.
This is idiotic; you either trolling or blinded by privilege; I am out.
Your argument: "Because I wouldn't like that job, nobody would like that job."
And the counter argument seems to be, "Because someone could conceivably like that job, everyone doing that job must like it."
Or maybe the counter argument is, "Well, they look happy in the pictures."
Or is it, "They'd be even less happy without a job"?
Except that no one's disputing these latter two arguments. Yes, they might be even more miserable without a job, but that doesn't mean their present job isn't depressing. And the apparent happiness in pictures cherry-picked by some PR hack for the wine industry is proof of nothing.
Or maybe the counter argument is, "Well, they look happy in the pictures."
Or is it, "They'd be even less happy without a job"?
Except that no one's disputing these latter two arguments. Yes, they might be even more miserable without a job, but that doesn't mean their present job isn't depressing. And the apparent happiness in pictures cherry-picked by some PR hack for the wine industry is proof of nothing.
Couldn't help but read this in the "How Its Made" voice.
couldn't help being reminded of old SNL skit about 'cork soaking' with janet jackson.
In Portugal there's this a company that creates shoes using cork as well http://www.rutz.pt/
Neat. As a tech geek that is also a home brewer/home winemaker I find it very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Intersting. Wonder why they aren't made from compressed wood pulp. In fact I assumed that is the case.
Shouldn't this be on reddit? Is HN the new reddit?
Why is this on HN? Flagging.
"Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did."
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
"Got buck naked bit*hes counting corks", (Was what I was expecting after the 1 Euro + images).
We harvest the cork out of the trees every ten years but it's absolutely false that the owners of these trees make lots of money like someone here has said in another comment. We just get enough to keep the forest clean of underbrushes. This is a real truth.
Moreover, because his area is very dry in summer we suffer fires that burn the forests every decade or two. Fortunately the burnt cork still works as an insulator, it's black on the outside and therefore can only be used as insulators in buildings. Amazingly, because cork it's such a great insulator burned cork trees survive the fires and develop very easily. You've mostly lost the cork production though...
We had a great fire at the beginning of the past summer that could be even smelt from Barcelona (180Km away from this forest). I have a couple of interesting pictures of the cork trees and how they develop.
This is a picture taken right after the great fire: http://goo.gl/3oM8O
Three months later all trees are developing again, however cork needs to be peeled. We actually lost three years of bark growth because the last harvest was three years ago: http://goo.gl/3ZBHl