Microsoft’s 128GB Surface Pro Sells Out At Online Store Just Hours After Launch(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Microsoft’s 128GB Surface Pro Sells Out At Online Store Just Hours After Launch
http://techcrunch.com/2013/02/09/microsofts-128gb-surface-pro-sells-out-at-ms-online-store-just-hours-after-launch/
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It's a compromise between an ultra book and a tablet. If you tout its ultra book qualities you can make it look like it trumps a tablet. If you tout its tablet qualities you can make it look like it trumps an ultra book.
The real issue is that as an ultra book it compares poorly to other ultra books and as a tablet it compare poorly to other tablets.
The real issue is that as an ultra book it compares poorly to other ultra books and as a tablet it compare poorly to other tablets.
Gonna go ahead and say that I've almost completely stopped using my Samsung Series 9 (amazing, beautiful ultrabook) ever since I got my Surface RT.
It works fine on my lap and it's a great computer (Pro of course even MORE so). The only use case that a normal laptop runs circles around it is when you're laying in bed and need to use the keyboard.
I agree with grandparent, though I do see what you're saying. Yes: there is compromise when getting a Surface. But, I honestly have a great laptop experience and a great tablet experience. I'm perfectly happy with it and wouldn't go back to using two separate devices.
It works fine on my lap and it's a great computer (Pro of course even MORE so). The only use case that a normal laptop runs circles around it is when you're laying in bed and need to use the keyboard.
I agree with grandparent, though I do see what you're saying. Yes: there is compromise when getting a Surface. But, I honestly have a great laptop experience and a great tablet experience. I'm perfectly happy with it and wouldn't go back to using two separate devices.
How do you get it to work fine on your lap? I've tried it with the kickstand and it's very unsteady. Did you buy an accessory?
I didn't really have to try...it just worked? I usually have the kickstand be at the end of my knees - any further and it would be close to falling off(!) but that places the keyboard in a good spot.
And sure, it's more unsteady than on a table and perhaps I look a little silly - but as far as typing speed is concerned, it's really a non issue.
And sure, it's more unsteady than on a table and perhaps I look a little silly - but as far as typing speed is concerned, it's really a non issue.
I don't own one, but what is it's footprint like with the keyboard and kickstand? Compared to other laptops?
Well a smartphone compares poorly to dumbphones as a phone (significantly worse battery life. Lack of consistent physical buttons such as "disconnect current call", less reliable, much larger / less portable than a dumbphone, generally more expensive as well). Smartphones compare poorly to tablets as a tablet (too small a screen for serious media viewing, generally underpowered compared to Tablet CPUs).
But because a smartphone can do both, it has become a useful device.
That said, of the convertables, the Surface isn't actually on my shortlist anymore. Lenovo Helix and XPS Duo 12 look superior to the Surface. But I'm not against the concept of a combined device.
But because a smartphone can do both, it has become a useful device.
That said, of the convertables, the Surface isn't actually on my shortlist anymore. Lenovo Helix and XPS Duo 12 look superior to the Surface. But I'm not against the concept of a combined device.
True, but the point of the Surface Pro and future ultratablets is that the user is willing to accept that it does not do either ultrabook or tablet as well as its competitors but can do both as the situation demands.
So what?
Sorry to be so blunt. I own half a dozen laptops and over a dozen desktops. If that's what I need, that's what I'll use. An sPro will actually provide greater capabilities and options rather than reduce them.
Sorry to be so blunt. I own half a dozen laptops and over a dozen desktops. If that's what I need, that's what I'll use. An sPro will actually provide greater capabilities and options rather than reduce them.
Here's the thing... every item on your list is laptop specific. I just don't see how it being on the Surface Pro does you any good? Ultimately - you're paying $900-$1000 - and (from what you've written) you're going to use it exactly like a laptop. At that point... aren't there better laptops for your money?
I've had a Macbook Air for a while now and my problem with the Surface is simply that I've never once desired to have a touchscreen on my little laptop. The large trackpad and keyboard are superior to a touch interface in almost every way for me.
I have an iPad that my parents got for me, and I struggle to force myself to use it because the entire touch interface seems inferior. Every time I lay down in bed with my iPad, I end up regretting it as soon as I have to type anything or use a website that doesn't have a really well-engineered mobile version or iPad app.
The touch interface seems ideal on much smaller devices, like phones, where it's not even remotely feasible to have a keyboard and a trackpad. I personally don't understand the desire to transfer it to larger devices, though.
The one major saving grace of touch-centric devices like the iPad, IMHO, is that it has made computing and the internet more accessible to people who otherwise wouldn't have learned to use traditional interfaces for whatever reason.
I have an iPad that my parents got for me, and I struggle to force myself to use it because the entire touch interface seems inferior. Every time I lay down in bed with my iPad, I end up regretting it as soon as I have to type anything or use a website that doesn't have a really well-engineered mobile version or iPad app.
The touch interface seems ideal on much smaller devices, like phones, where it's not even remotely feasible to have a keyboard and a trackpad. I personally don't understand the desire to transfer it to larger devices, though.
The one major saving grace of touch-centric devices like the iPad, IMHO, is that it has made computing and the internet more accessible to people who otherwise wouldn't have learned to use traditional interfaces for whatever reason.
I used to agree with you. Never did I wish to have a touchscreen on my Macbook. In my head it manifested a cumbersome scenario. Then, my lady bought a Surface RT. I use it as a laptop often, and find that having a touchscreen is great. I often find myself trying to touch the screen of my iMac or Macbook, after using Surface RT.
I hooked up the Surface to a 21 inch Samsung tv through the microHDMI. It is a great way to watch a movie and surf the web, all from the little guy. I have cranked out serious work through the Surface Type Keyboard as well. The best part is the tablet can live without being a parasite to my main computers.
It would be great if every device had many types of inputs, touch, voice, or gesture.
I hooked up the Surface to a 21 inch Samsung tv through the microHDMI. It is a great way to watch a movie and surf the web, all from the little guy. I have cranked out serious work through the Surface Type Keyboard as well. The best part is the tablet can live without being a parasite to my main computers.
It would be great if every device had many types of inputs, touch, voice, or gesture.
Well, maybe I should just give one a whirl. Maybe I'm missing something.
I bought a new Windows 8 laptop specifically because of the touchscreen. A touchscreen makes it usable, for me anyway. In fact, I'd prefer getting rid of the touchpad on the laptop altogether.
I own six PC laptops. I'd take the SPro to bed, the coffee shop or on a trip to read my books tablet style. On a trip I could even do real work on it --coding, writing, design, whatever-- and have access to, effectively Windows or Linux as required. I could install Dropbox and synchronize my work as required. During the same trip I could hand the sPro to my kids and let them log on to their own restricted account to play games --as a tablet-- without having to fear that they could accidentally destroy my work or email that business contact in Munich some gibberish. I could also hand the SPro around the table at a business meeting with the confidence provided by a restricted purpose-specific throwaway account t I created for that meeting that only provides access to the three documents I want them to see and not my Address-book, Meetup, LinkedIn and Facebook accounts. They also don't need to have access to my Chrome where they could gain entry into plain-text passwords stored in the browser.
Again, I could go on.
For corporate use it is an absolute no-brainier.
Again, I could go on.
For corporate use it is an absolute no-brainier.
> I'd take the SPro to bed
If the SPro is anything like the SurfaceRT, its not a bed device; its just way too wide to be used in portrait or landscape while laying down. The non-wide screen iPad works much better in bed than a Surface (my wife and I have both, and we are always fighting over who gets the iPad).
If the SPro is anything like the SurfaceRT, its not a bed device; its just way too wide to be used in portrait or landscape while laying down. The non-wide screen iPad works much better in bed than a Surface (my wife and I have both, and we are always fighting over who gets the iPad).
I've used a Lenovo X230-T. It's a 12" laptop with a touchscreen, convertible to a tablet. I use it as a workstation laptop (lots of PC-specific apps) quite often, but then it magically doubles as an entertainment device during my 15-minute breaks and after hours. Switching between a laptop and an iPad carries a non-insignificant overhead, I found - I, for one, actually like the laptop/tablet form factor.
which laptop at $1000 can rotate its touchscreen by 90 degrees? only one i can think of right now is the msi slider
11- You can install linux on it as the sole OS.
12- You can run IIS, apache, nginx, rails, node.js (on windows or linux) and serve content off it (either as a test server or as a production server, if you really want).
12- You can run IIS, apache, nginx, rails, node.js (on windows or linux) and serve content off it (either as a test server or as a production server, if you really want).
The Surface Pro looks a little before its time (heat and weight-wise), but I agree with almost all of this. Currently I've got a little Kindle Fire HD (better speakers than the Nexus) for watching videos on the go. I've got a MBP for doing "real work" on around the apartment. But when I travel, I'd love something that lets me do the work, using the tools I already know, while also being usable as a tablet for content consumption and note-taking (the active digitizer is a really nice bonus). iPads aren't cheap, and I can't imagine paying that much for something that can't do the duty of a laptop in a pinch.
The ThinkPad Helix also looks very interesting. IMO this is an instance of Microsoft being the ones skating to where the puck is going to be.
The ThinkPad Helix also looks very interesting. IMO this is an instance of Microsoft being the ones skating to where the puck is going to be.
You won't be don't much with solidworks or autocad with the crappy intel 4000 graphics card nor will the battery last anywhere near the 10 hours of the iPad. The surface pro is stretch between a laptop and a tablet and ends up as a master of none
EDIT:will we ever see any numbers from Microsoft or will we always be stuck with the amazon style multiplier?
EDIT:will we ever see any numbers from Microsoft or will we always be stuck with the amazon style multiplier?
The HD 4000's performance in AutoCAD is not far below common discrete cards. Keep in mind, the graph here is showing it against desktop cards, and it comes in slightly under the Radeon HD 7750. That's a $100 budget gaming card. For 2D CAD (still fairly common in architecture, I can't speak to other industries), the benchmark is almost identical across the board.
So no, it can't match the performance of a GTX 680. And I doubt it handles complicated models very well. But it's by no means incapable of light CAD work, especially compared to laptops.
http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/AutoDesk-AutoCAD-2...
So no, it can't match the performance of a GTX 680. And I doubt it handles complicated models very well. But it's by no means incapable of light CAD work, especially compared to laptops.
http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/AutoDesk-AutoCAD-2...
The whole list of things you added is a step BACKWARDS from the iPad and Android Tablets.
It means relying on old desktop paradigms and having a sub-par tablet experience. If you want to run Windows and it's software on something portable (which, by the list you provide, you do) get an ultra-portable. Even a MB Air will do.
But if you want a tablet, get a real tablet, that pushes the envelope forward for how to work on that form factor.
It means relying on old desktop paradigms and having a sub-par tablet experience. If you want to run Windows and it's software on something portable (which, by the list you provide, you do) get an ultra-portable. Even a MB Air will do.
But if you want a tablet, get a real tablet, that pushes the envelope forward for how to work on that form factor.
This sort of statement reminds me of what people used to say about the first smartphones.
Want a phone? Get a more portable, smaller Razr (the original one). Want a PDA? Get a real PDA, like a Palm Pilot.
Why should we create "PDA-phones" (aka, what smartphones were called back then), when PDAs do PDA things better, and Real Phones do the phone part better?
Want a phone? Get a more portable, smaller Razr (the original one). Want a PDA? Get a real PDA, like a Palm Pilot.
Why should we create "PDA-phones" (aka, what smartphones were called back then), when PDAs do PDA things better, and Real Phones do the phone part better?
Nope. It's a huge step forward. It means that I would have a tablet with full PC capabilities, including the option to runLinux through virtualization. Major woody.
The fact that I listed these thing doesn't necessarily mean I would personally use it that way. As an example, if I had a meeting where I needed to work with Solidworks files I'd far more inclined to take one of my big laptops with the 17 inch screen. My intent was to simply illustrate the range of possibilities in order to drive a point.
The fact that I listed these thing doesn't necessarily mean I would personally use it that way. As an example, if I had a meeting where I needed to work with Solidworks files I'd far more inclined to take one of my big laptops with the 17 inch screen. My intent was to simply illustrate the range of possibilities in order to drive a point.
It means you'd have exactly the type of "tablet" that Micrsoft has gone nowhere with, for the last decade-plus.
How is the Surface any different than a straight-forward iteration on a Win7 tablet?
A neat keyboard for the slate form-factor? Marginally more touch-friendly software before it dumps you into an interface built for kb/m?
For the last decade or so, some people have been well-served by such devices. This one is no different in that respect.
But it is simply not a step forward. It's a stubborn refusal to step in even the same general direction as more-popular tablets.
How is the Surface any different than a straight-forward iteration on a Win7 tablet?
A neat keyboard for the slate form-factor? Marginally more touch-friendly software before it dumps you into an interface built for kb/m?
For the last decade or so, some people have been well-served by such devices. This one is no different in that respect.
But it is simply not a step forward. It's a stubborn refusal to step in even the same general direction as more-popular tablets.
>Nope. It's a huge step forward. It means that I would have a tablet with full PC capabilities, including the option to runLinux through virtualization. Major woody.
You keep using this word "forward". I don't thing it means what you think it means.
For most of people, a subpar experience is worst than no experience at all. Ie. I'd rather not go to a restaurant than have a lousy meal. Or I'd rather not go to the movies, than see Water World.
Especially if paying for having that subpar experience means that I will be delayed a good experience (i.e by buying a tablet that also runs Windows app, companies don't rush on making apps suitable for the tablet form specifically).
You are basically watching "Water World" AND sending a strong message "Hey, Kevin, make more movies like this".
You keep using this word "forward". I don't thing it means what you think it means.
For most of people, a subpar experience is worst than no experience at all. Ie. I'd rather not go to a restaurant than have a lousy meal. Or I'd rather not go to the movies, than see Water World.
Especially if paying for having that subpar experience means that I will be delayed a good experience (i.e by buying a tablet that also runs Windows app, companies don't rush on making apps suitable for the tablet form specifically).
You are basically watching "Water World" AND sending a strong message "Hey, Kevin, make more movies like this".
>You keep using this word "forward". I don't thing it means what you think it means.
So you are the voice inside my head? Please, help me out dude. Since you can read my thoughts...waffles or frittata for breakfast? :)
>companies don't rush on making apps suitable for the tablet form specifically
My experience is that companies are not shy about investing in better tools if they provide a true strategic, financial or technical advantage. The shape, format or nature of the tools is only of importance if that itself constitutes an advantage. In other words, a tablet will only be favored if it makes sense to do so. Let's see what the free market decides.
So you are the voice inside my head? Please, help me out dude. Since you can read my thoughts...waffles or frittata for breakfast? :)
>companies don't rush on making apps suitable for the tablet form specifically
My experience is that companies are not shy about investing in better tools if they provide a true strategic, financial or technical advantage. The shape, format or nature of the tools is only of importance if that itself constitutes an advantage. In other words, a tablet will only be favored if it makes sense to do so. Let's see what the free market decides.
Windows 8 Pro comes with Microsoft's Hyper-V virtualization. http://www.modern.ie/virtualization-tools
So no need to install VMWare anymore.
So no need to install VMWare anymore.
Very cool. I, almost exclusively, use "raw" Linux (meaning: no GUI installed, just command line). I'd be a trip to have it available on a tablet.
You can already get almost exactly that on Android, which has convertible laptops such as the Asus Transformer Prime already available.
Oh, you can set up and test a Linux cluster on Android? Can you use snapshots in the middle of a GDB debugging process and then restore it when you've "stepped past the bug" and need to go back?
What kind of Virtualization do you have to use to get that?
Come on, real computers, with real virtualization is an absolute boon to programming productivity. Toy systems like Android and iOS just aren't there yet. I don't think there is any virtualization platform available for ARM either.
What kind of Virtualization do you have to use to get that?
Come on, real computers, with real virtualization is an absolute boon to programming productivity. Toy systems like Android and iOS just aren't there yet. I don't think there is any virtualization platform available for ARM either.
Considering you can install Ubuntu on several Android tablets, then your stretch goals are technically achievable.
In terms of everything else, I don't know specifically, but probably. It's a full Linux kernel with root access, so virtually anything is doable.
In terms of performance, no, I don't think that any mainstream Android device can do virtualization - but that's a hardware problem.
I hope you don't misinterpret me - I love the Surface, and I want one very badly. I was just pointing out that you can get a command-line Linux on a tablet, and have been able to for some time.
EDIT: Look at my other comment in this same thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5194554 I'm not arguing that Android is a replacement for a real OS, by any means. But my limited statement, that you can get command-line Linux on a tablet, was correct.
In terms of everything else, I don't know specifically, but probably. It's a full Linux kernel with root access, so virtually anything is doable.
In terms of performance, no, I don't think that any mainstream Android device can do virtualization - but that's a hardware problem.
I hope you don't misinterpret me - I love the Surface, and I want one very badly. I was just pointing out that you can get a command-line Linux on a tablet, and have been able to for some time.
EDIT: Look at my other comment in this same thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5194554 I'm not arguing that Android is a replacement for a real OS, by any means. But my limited statement, that you can get command-line Linux on a tablet, was correct.
Okay. So I don't own one and don't plan to, and here is why:
> 1- it's a design that is far more open than iPad. You can move files in and out of it and have full control of the user directory structure. Want to move a bunch of your spreadsheets, recipes, python scripts and chess games into it. No problem. You don't have an Apple-like overlord prohibiting any of that.
I don't want to control my tablet's directory structure. As long as I can put my files on it (and I can) I'm good.
> 2- Need to install XAMPP, Python and other dev tools? No problem?
I can do that, better, on my laptop.
> 3- Want to install VMware and boot Ubuntu 12.04 LTS on a VM for a full command-line dev environment and even virtual host a few sites? No problem.
I can do that, better, on my laptop.
> 4- and, after all that work, do you want to create a restricted user account for your 5-year-old to be able to play some games and educational apps? No problem at all.
I'm going to hand my $1000 Surface Pro to my five year old? The five year old is getting a $200 Nexus 7, which is rubberized and cheap enough that I don't care when he puts it in the sink.
> 5- How about accounts for guests and friends so that they don't accidentally mess with your stuff? Yup.
Have you seen how my wife treats electronics? I can't say I didn't have notice--when I met her her computer was a netbook with three keys missing--but there is no way in hell she's touching my Surface Pro. No, she's getting an iPad, which I don't care when she puts it in the sink.
> 6- Need more hard drive space? How about attaching an external USB hard drive and, perhaps keeping all your dev work there for easy transport to your desktop? Yup.
Dropbox + Wifi?
> 7- Can you use that really cool RC Flight Simulator that comes with a custom USB interface to your JR9505 transmitter? Of course you can.
Why would I want to run this on my tablet?
> 8- Or, how about that receipt or business card USB scanner?
They have ones that connect to WiFi now.
> 9- That neat Logithech keyboard you use on all your PC's? Of course.
Bluetooth.
> 10- can you run SolidWorks, AutoCAD, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Dreamweaver, CuteFTP, Komodo, WinForth, Keil, Eclipse, Photoshop, Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Fritz and a whole host of other software you might already be using for fun and work? Sure looks that way.
I wouldn't want to run half of those on a tiny 10" screen, and the other half have perfectly good iPad replacements.
> 1- it's a design that is far more open than iPad. You can move files in and out of it and have full control of the user directory structure. Want to move a bunch of your spreadsheets, recipes, python scripts and chess games into it. No problem. You don't have an Apple-like overlord prohibiting any of that.
I don't want to control my tablet's directory structure. As long as I can put my files on it (and I can) I'm good.
> 2- Need to install XAMPP, Python and other dev tools? No problem?
I can do that, better, on my laptop.
> 3- Want to install VMware and boot Ubuntu 12.04 LTS on a VM for a full command-line dev environment and even virtual host a few sites? No problem.
I can do that, better, on my laptop.
> 4- and, after all that work, do you want to create a restricted user account for your 5-year-old to be able to play some games and educational apps? No problem at all.
I'm going to hand my $1000 Surface Pro to my five year old? The five year old is getting a $200 Nexus 7, which is rubberized and cheap enough that I don't care when he puts it in the sink.
> 5- How about accounts for guests and friends so that they don't accidentally mess with your stuff? Yup.
Have you seen how my wife treats electronics? I can't say I didn't have notice--when I met her her computer was a netbook with three keys missing--but there is no way in hell she's touching my Surface Pro. No, she's getting an iPad, which I don't care when she puts it in the sink.
> 6- Need more hard drive space? How about attaching an external USB hard drive and, perhaps keeping all your dev work there for easy transport to your desktop? Yup.
Dropbox + Wifi?
> 7- Can you use that really cool RC Flight Simulator that comes with a custom USB interface to your JR9505 transmitter? Of course you can.
Why would I want to run this on my tablet?
> 8- Or, how about that receipt or business card USB scanner?
They have ones that connect to WiFi now.
> 9- That neat Logithech keyboard you use on all your PC's? Of course.
Bluetooth.
> 10- can you run SolidWorks, AutoCAD, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Dreamweaver, CuteFTP, Komodo, WinForth, Keil, Eclipse, Photoshop, Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Fritz and a whole host of other software you might already be using for fun and work? Sure looks that way.
I wouldn't want to run half of those on a tiny 10" screen, and the other half have perfectly good iPad replacements.
OK then. Don't buy one.
Are you married to my wife's sister? Did yours pour a full glass of orange juice into your HP calculator? Nearly had a heart attack. Took the batteries out. Dunked it in clean water and put it out in the sun to dry. Still working like a champ many, many years later.
Are you married to my wife's sister? Did yours pour a full glass of orange juice into your HP calculator? Nearly had a heart attack. Took the batteries out. Dunked it in clean water and put it out in the sun to dry. Still working like a champ many, many years later.
This is an interesting article, and I think it's the product of microsoft marketing.
After the lukewarm sales of the surface last fall, I bet microsoft would be keen to stock stores with less surface pros on release to provoke articles like this. After glancing at this article title, the first thing I thought was "Maybe there might be something good about the surface that I had overlooked?".
It's a bit of a stretch, but isn't unreasonable for a good sales team.
After the lukewarm sales of the surface last fall, I bet microsoft would be keen to stock stores with less surface pros on release to provoke articles like this. After glancing at this article title, the first thing I thought was "Maybe there might be something good about the surface that I had overlooked?".
It's a bit of a stretch, but isn't unreasonable for a good sales team.
My local Staples received a shipment of exactly two: One display model and one in box.
It seems you're not the only person reporting that they've only had the display devices on stock. I wonder if they did that for most of the stores to say they sold out quickly. It's not easy to take Microsoft at face value these days. So I remain skeptical until we get more data.
Surface RT sold out when it was released also. I wouldn't read too much into this.
>>I think [the article is] the product of microsoft marketing.
You're probably correct, re this sell out. Consider:
The article noted that "The Surface RT sold out of the $500 32GB model within one day". Analysts have noted (a good deal after the launch) that the RT did not sell much at all -- so if even that one sold out initially, the initial "sell-out" is probably planned...
You're probably correct, re this sell out. Consider:
The article noted that "The Surface RT sold out of the $500 32GB model within one day". Analysts have noted (a good deal after the launch) that the RT did not sell much at all -- so if even that one sold out initially, the initial "sell-out" is probably planned...
I checked online inventory at all Minnesota Best Buy and Staples locations at 8:30 and all were out-of-stock for the 128. I was also at the Microsoft store this morning in Minnesota for the 'launch'. There were about 40 people in line before the doors opened. Even before the doors opened, they came to each of us and told us that the 128 was already sold out and that we would be 'first' in line on the waiting list. It seems to me that the only 'stock' at any of the stores were the display models.
This is kind of empty without knowing how much the online store stocked.
Also the RT saw 'very high' rates of return, the pro may have similar issues. I think the most useful measure will be the number sold (after returns) after a a few months.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57566759-75/microsoft-surf...
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57566759-75/microsoft-surf...
It's safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of those returns are because of buyers who saw "Windows" and thought it'd run existing desktop applications.
I wouldn't call that a safe assumption, but I can see how that would be part of it. From the article:
>Why the high return rates? "It seems to be linked in a lot of cases to a steep learning curve of the [Windows 8] OS -- which is not necessarily intuitive," she said.
As I understand it the full version of Windows 8 is even more complex and less intuitive. Surface pro is in a tricky spot because it's competing both with traditional tablets and laptops, both of which consumers are entirely used to.
>Why the high return rates? "It seems to be linked in a lot of cases to a steep learning curve of the [Windows 8] OS -- which is not necessarily intuitive," she said.
As I understand it the full version of Windows 8 is even more complex and less intuitive. Surface pro is in a tricky spot because it's competing both with traditional tablets and laptops, both of which consumers are entirely used to.
Half of laptops now ships with Windows 8, there are no reports about high return rates of them.
>As I understand it the full version of Windows 8 is even more complex and less intuitive.
The only difference in UI for regular customer is that Windows 8 can run third-party desktop applications.
>As I understand it the full version of Windows 8 is even more complex and less intuitive.
The only difference in UI for regular customer is that Windows 8 can run third-party desktop applications.
I guess I'm the only one who isn't surprised that the 128GB sold out. Do you guys remember that when they made the Xbox 360 originally it launched in the Core and Premium (I had initially written Arcade and Pro here, but my intention was Core and Pro)versions with none and 20gigs HDD respectively? If my memory serves me right, they had higher sales of the 20 gig model rather than the arcade model.
Holding that thought train did anyone else compare this to the Dan Ariely's 'Predictably Irrational' chapter of human choice. Given A, A-, and B, A looks better than B precisely because our minds compare A with A-, over which it's clearly superior and applies that to B as well. Only, here they don't need a B. They've made it work fantastically with just A and A- options.
Holding that thought train did anyone else compare this to the Dan Ariely's 'Predictably Irrational' chapter of human choice. Given A, A-, and B, A looks better than B precisely because our minds compare A with A-, over which it's clearly superior and applies that to B as well. Only, here they don't need a B. They've made it work fantastically with just A and A- options.
IIRC the Arcade came about a year after the original X360. I had one of the originals, chrome disc drive and 10GB HD (maybe that was usable space). ... Okay, looked it up and you're right, except it was the 'Core' model. Arcade was two full years after launch.
Difference: Premium cost only $100 more than the Core ($400 vs $300) but came with basically over $200 worth of upgrades incl. HDD, wireless controller, headset, and memory card. You also needed the HDD to play Xbox Live.
Difference: Premium cost only $100 more than the Core ($400 vs $300) but came with basically over $200 worth of upgrades incl. HDD, wireless controller, headset, and memory card. You also needed the HDD to play Xbox Live.
Yes, my fault. I actually indeed meant Core and Pro. Totally slipped my mind that Arcade was actually an official edition and had 4GB SSD or something.
Wow, although I don't care much about the Surface (I use Linux and laptops) I am very surprised how fast everyone is at bashing the Surface.
It looks like if was a lost cause before even it was lunch.
It looks like if was a lost cause before even it was lunch.
Its the same old fanboyisms, brand loyalty, hivemind hatred all mixed into one, ie a weakness of human trait to look at things subjectively. Remember when Nexus 4 got sold out? You din't see comments like "ohh look they intentionally put < X units as a marketing strategy".
Never make a hivemind decision the sole reason for buying or avoiding a product. Try them first, be it chromebook, macbook or a windows ultrabook, you will be surprised how reality differs.
Never make a hivemind decision the sole reason for buying or avoiding a product. Try them first, be it chromebook, macbook or a windows ultrabook, you will be surprised how reality differs.
All 30 of them?
It would be nice that these "news" sites refused to publish this kind of information unless Microsoft (in this case) revealed the number of units sold.
It would be nice that these "news" sites refused to publish this kind of information unless Microsoft (in this case) revealed the number of units sold.
Yeah. Or at least gave us a ballpark figure. I mean if they said "over 30K units" for example, that is good enough for me.
It probably was around that number, I doubt MS would make 300 units for their launch.
What's with the negativity? Nothing beats the Surface Pro at the moment so I'm not surprised it sells out.
Nothing beats it at what? As a tablet, it's not that useful. It's heavy, low battery life, and not even close to having many good "tablet" apps. As an ultrabook I suppose it's alright, but I wouldn't find it useful myself, as I watch movies from bed a lot with the laptop on a desk, and the angle of the Surface with its dock would make watching a movie on it like this impossible.
"Nothing beats it" get it? If you've got "nothing" your in a superior position to someone who owns one. Wink wink.
I see what you did there :-)
I suspect the negativity is the non-news news (which is to say insufficient context to evaluate the story, sadly a common news problem these days). No doubt Microsoft will give out some more durable numbers of units sold at some point. We'll all compare them to the number of units of $favorite_product{$user} sold and then gloat or gnash our teeth. :-)
I suspect the negativity is the non-news news (which is to say insufficient context to evaluate the story, sadly a common news problem these days). No doubt Microsoft will give out some more durable numbers of units sold at some point. We'll all compare them to the number of units of $favorite_product{$user} sold and then gloat or gnash our teeth. :-)
This sounds like the technique that bands use when they first come to a new city. Use a smaller venue so everyone hears the show was sold out.. then the next time they come back, they can play a bigger venue and fill it.
Yes it would be better if there were inventory figures, but that doesn't stop the exact same stories to come out about Apple launches.
Which are usually followed by Apple saying "We're delighted to have sold [a crapload] of [whatever] this weekend, a record amount etc etc". That's why Apple sellouts are interesting, because they actually tell you how many they've sold. If Microsoft does the same thing, kudos to them, but for the surface RT launch they didn't (IIRC).
1. Buyers apparently know that they have to go for the 128 GB version if they want to have sufficient storage for their own data.
2. The headline reminds my of book editions: '1st edition sold out!' 'Interesting, how many books were printed for the 1st edition?'
2. The headline reminds my of book editions: '1st edition sold out!' 'Interesting, how many books were printed for the 1st edition?'
#1: Or just install an SD card...
That's possible of course (well, 'of course' outside the Apple world) but not very convenient in my experience except if you use the same SD card all the time. Everything else doesn't fit well with a portable device.
The question remains, however, how well the Surface manages data an SD cards, i.e., can you save everything you like on an SD card including apps?
The question remains, however, how well the Surface manages data an SD cards, i.e., can you save everything you like on an SD card including apps?
Perf will not be great to the card though. Depends what you install or store there, or if it even can be installed there. SD cards are fine for general media storage, but anything perf intensive you don't want there.
Presumably the SD port will cope with Class 10 or UHS-I and so transfer at HD video rates. There can't be much call for higher rate transfers for most users; it's not like you're going to use it for data gathering from a hadron collider.
Most of the physical stores (read the 4 major retailers I visited earlier today) in my town sold out as well.
Some people who actually asked in stores that have sold out were told that the store got 2 (a display item and an inventory item).
It would not be surprising if this is engineered to make it sell out quickly and seem more desirable than it really is.
It would not be surprising if this is engineered to make it sell out quickly and seem more desirable than it really is.
Theory:
MS had low stock due to Surface RT sales.
Problem is, RT had low stock at start too.
Whether or not this represents a lot of sales, the fact is there are plenty of Microsoft fanboys. They don't get ridiculed by the press the way Apple fanboys do, but the fact that people would queue for a new release of Windows back in the day is testament to it. Just as Apple can sell a buttload of products on day one but ultimately have a flop product, although we haven't seen such a flop in some time, so can Microsoft (Vista!).
It's a shame the keyboard cover isn't stiff enough to not require the stand. In that picture the stand makes it look sort of awkward.
You don't spend any time looking at it from that angle when you're using it, but the stand and cover make it just as usable as a real laptop as long as you've got a tabletop. I'm able to type as fast/accurate on my RT with the Type Cover as I can on my MacBook Air.
Unfortunately I don't think there is enough mass in the keyboard to allow for any amount of stiffness make a difference.
This is a feature of this particular device. Keyboard doubling as stands are offered by other OEMs.
It's hard to believe they sold both.
Now or then, everyone will go to the surface, also those who make jokes out of it.
Interestingly, the 128 gig iPad is not in stock in Apple's online store, various models indicating shipping in 1-3 or 3-5 business days.
To me, this is a marketing tactic.
I'm somewhat excited about the "Convertible" concept. But technically, I don't think convertibles are quite ready yet for mainstream adoption.
Frankly, the real problem is that Intel / AMD chips are not ready to compete in this form factor. Intel is making bold new moves with Haswell however, and AMD is making big moves with Kabini, Temash and Kaveri.
In this generation, the lowest TDP chips are 17-Watt Ivy Bridges and 10-Watt Atoms / AMD Brazos. For whatever reason, AMD Brazos aren't getting used in tablets (they seem like a nice chip though...), the Clovertrail Atoms are too weak (lacks out-of-order execution, performs mediocre even compared to ARM chips, extremely poor GPU performance), and the 17-Watt Ivy Bridges use too much power compared to the 5-Watt Arm chips competition.
( Part of the reason is that Intel Atom chips are second-class citizens of Intel. They don't get access to the latest process, and were instead seen as a cheap cost-effective chip for netbooks, as opposed to a premium power-efficient but powerful chip that you'd expect in a tablet. )
With a power disadvantage, this generation of convertibles just ain't gonna cut it in terms of battery life / portability / weight. The CPUs require too much power, which require bigger batteries.
Next generation stuff from AMD / Intel however is looking quite exciting, and the potential standardization of widespread adoption of DDR4 for more power savings helps this form factor greatly.
In fact, Intel has introduced new instructions to Clovertrail Atoms and Haswell specific to new low-power states of the CPU. Intel's willing to change their instruction set to get better power savings.
True, Tablets will benefit from DDR4 (and already have the power-saving instructions Intel is only now implementing). But the real benefit of battery life stops being useful past around 8-hours or so. (With exception of e-readers and their 30+ days of battery life. Those things are amazing on vacation).
Furthermore, ARM chips are growing in a different direction in the near future... they're aiming at the server marketplace. The innovations of ARM 64-bit don't really translate to smartphones / tablets. Exciting for the server market, but I don't really see major innovations occurring for Tablet-space ARMs in the near future.
If the convertible concept survives till next year, then we'll see some real competition. In 2014, ARM chips will grow into the server market and attack Xeons / Opterons. And simultaneously, Intel / AMD solutions will have their first real salvo into the ultra-portable market.
---------
That said, the Surface needs to be made. Microsoft needs to innovate from the software side and figure out how to update Windows 8 to be more palatable for everyone. So even if Intel / AMD chips aren't ready to compete, Microsoft gotta move forward here. They're clearly falling behind in this race and need to put something out there.
Frankly, the real problem is that Intel / AMD chips are not ready to compete in this form factor. Intel is making bold new moves with Haswell however, and AMD is making big moves with Kabini, Temash and Kaveri.
In this generation, the lowest TDP chips are 17-Watt Ivy Bridges and 10-Watt Atoms / AMD Brazos. For whatever reason, AMD Brazos aren't getting used in tablets (they seem like a nice chip though...), the Clovertrail Atoms are too weak (lacks out-of-order execution, performs mediocre even compared to ARM chips, extremely poor GPU performance), and the 17-Watt Ivy Bridges use too much power compared to the 5-Watt Arm chips competition.
( Part of the reason is that Intel Atom chips are second-class citizens of Intel. They don't get access to the latest process, and were instead seen as a cheap cost-effective chip for netbooks, as opposed to a premium power-efficient but powerful chip that you'd expect in a tablet. )
With a power disadvantage, this generation of convertibles just ain't gonna cut it in terms of battery life / portability / weight. The CPUs require too much power, which require bigger batteries.
Next generation stuff from AMD / Intel however is looking quite exciting, and the potential standardization of widespread adoption of DDR4 for more power savings helps this form factor greatly.
In fact, Intel has introduced new instructions to Clovertrail Atoms and Haswell specific to new low-power states of the CPU. Intel's willing to change their instruction set to get better power savings.
True, Tablets will benefit from DDR4 (and already have the power-saving instructions Intel is only now implementing). But the real benefit of battery life stops being useful past around 8-hours or so. (With exception of e-readers and their 30+ days of battery life. Those things are amazing on vacation).
Furthermore, ARM chips are growing in a different direction in the near future... they're aiming at the server marketplace. The innovations of ARM 64-bit don't really translate to smartphones / tablets. Exciting for the server market, but I don't really see major innovations occurring for Tablet-space ARMs in the near future.
If the convertible concept survives till next year, then we'll see some real competition. In 2014, ARM chips will grow into the server market and attack Xeons / Opterons. And simultaneously, Intel / AMD solutions will have their first real salvo into the ultra-portable market.
---------
That said, the Surface needs to be made. Microsoft needs to innovate from the software side and figure out how to update Windows 8 to be more palatable for everyone. So even if Intel / AMD chips aren't ready to compete, Microsoft gotta move forward here. They're clearly falling behind in this race and need to put something out there.
They learned from Apple to artificially limit supply so they sell out quickly, thus increasing demand in the long run. Not much else to see here.
"Apple [artificially limits] supply so they sell out quickly"
Citation needed.
Whenever Apple launches a new iDevice, it sells millions of units within days. When stock is depleted that fast, that means it could've sold more if they had the inventory, and they miss out on sales because of customers choosing something that is in stock at the time.
Citation needed.
Whenever Apple launches a new iDevice, it sells millions of units within days. When stock is depleted that fast, that means it could've sold more if they had the inventory, and they miss out on sales because of customers choosing something that is in stock at the time.
>it sells millions of units within days //
How many of those are pre-orders? My point being if they sell out but only have a small % more products than they have pre-orders for then it suggests they are indeed using scarcity for marketing purposes.
Like you note there's not real point in speculating on it without firm stats.
How many of those are pre-orders? My point being if they sell out but only have a small % more products than they have pre-orders for then it suggests they are indeed using scarcity for marketing purposes.
Like you note there's not real point in speculating on it without firm stats.
"if they sell out but only have a small % more products than they have pre-orders for then it suggests they are indeed using scarcity for marketing purposes."
I don't think that's the case:
* When Apple allows for pre-ordering, it's rarely more than two weeks in advance.
* On launch day, there are always long lines in front of the Apple Stores, APRs and other retail stores that sell Apple products. The people standing in line haven't pre-ordered, since pre-orders are fulfilled by mail.
* New iDevices are sold in only a few countries at launch. Other countries have to wait weeks (like mainland Europe) or months (like China and India) to get any stock.
I don't think that's the case:
* When Apple allows for pre-ordering, it's rarely more than two weeks in advance.
* On launch day, there are always long lines in front of the Apple Stores, APRs and other retail stores that sell Apple products. The people standing in line haven't pre-ordered, since pre-orders are fulfilled by mail.
* New iDevices are sold in only a few countries at launch. Other countries have to wait weeks (like mainland Europe) or months (like China and India) to get any stock.
Oh come on, Apple sell out every time they release an iOS product - even when they miss analysts' expectations. They are either really really bad at estimating demand (which I seriously doubt), or they are intending to sell out.
It's a perfectly sensible thing to do.
It's a perfectly sensible thing to do.
"really bad at estimating demand"
I won't pretend Apple is bad at estimating demand, even though each new model sells way more units than the last. Tim Cook is famous for his inventory management [1].
I think Apple's manufacturing partners simply cannot produce enough of them (partly because Apple keeps making them harder to manufacture, partly because Apple demands the best prices). Of course, Apple could wait longer, stockpiling units for months, before announcing the products but then production units tend to leak and it allows competitors to catch up.
[1] http://www.wired.com/business/2011/08/why-tim-cook/
I won't pretend Apple is bad at estimating demand, even though each new model sells way more units than the last. Tim Cook is famous for his inventory management [1].
I think Apple's manufacturing partners simply cannot produce enough of them (partly because Apple keeps making them harder to manufacture, partly because Apple demands the best prices). Of course, Apple could wait longer, stockpiling units for months, before announcing the products but then production units tend to leak and it allows competitors to catch up.
[1] http://www.wired.com/business/2011/08/why-tim-cook/
After decades of new products always selling out quickly, you'd think they'd be able to get their supply chain in order, but alas, the next iPhone and iPad will both be "sold out" within days.
It's a very clever and effective marketing strategy, even when people know they are doing it. We want (and talk about!) what we can't have, even if the reason we can't have it is artificial. Just like a movie or TV show we can't see but which was completed months ago.
It's a very clever and effective marketing strategy, even when people know they are doing it. We want (and talk about!) what we can't have, even if the reason we can't have it is artificial. Just like a movie or TV show we can't see but which was completed months ago.
Better build 10 more to sell. ;)
I don't own one but will buy one eventually. Surface Pro is a significant step forward in the world of tablets for a number of reasons. I won't go into all of them here --and I probably haven't recognized them all yet anyway.
1- it's a design that is far more open than iPad. You can move files in and out of it and have full control of the user directory structure. Want to move a bunch of your spreadsheets, recipes, python scripts and chess games into it. No problem. You don't have an Apple-like overlord prohibiting any of that.
2- Need to install XAMPP, Python and other dev tools? No problem?
3- Want to install VMware and boot Ubuntu 12.04 LTS on a VM for a full command-line dev environment and even virtual host a few sites? No problem.
4- and, after all that work, do you want to create a restricted user account for your 5-year-old to be able to play some games and educational apps? No problem at all.
5- How about accounts for guests and friends so that they don't accidentally mess with your stuff? Yup.
6- Need more hard drive space? How about attaching an external USB hard drive and, perhaps keeping all your dev work there for easy transport to your desktop? Yup.
7- Can you use that really cool RC Flight Simulator that comes with a custom USB interface to your JR9505 transmitter? Of course you can.
8- Or, how about that receipt or business card USB scanner?
9- That neat Logithech keyboard you use on all your PC's? Of course.
10- can you run SolidWorks, AutoCAD, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Dreamweaver, CuteFTP, Komodo, WinForth, Keil, Eclipse, Photoshop, Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Fritz and a whole host of other software you might already be using for fun and work? Sure looks that way.
Yeah. Exactly. Just like an iPad.